It should be called Stupid Ordinance, not Hudood!

Well said.

The Islamic parties and their drones can`t admit they`re wrong...they`re the true Mumins, after all.

The Mullah virus is to Pakistan what the Aids is to the individual.

A well written article.

The bottomline which needs to be emphasised is that this law was not made through debate in Pakistan`s central legislature... it was made by a military dictator who was the antithesis of Pakistan`s constitution.

Any legislation, for whatever reason, has to follow a certain course ...

Muzzamil

Obviously, you are right. But you are far too polite.

Sharia is nothing more than the history of the Abbasid Arabs. How can you make history as your Regulations?

And how come `Quran`, supposed to be an all all-encompassing book, missed out on `Rape`; and it had to put into the `Penal Code`.

Hassan Nasir, a liberal scholar, who took part in the TV debates; and made some logical sense has been attacked and is in serious condition in hospital. The fundos attacked him.

So be upfront with no compromise with Mulla at all - HE IS COMPLETELY WRONG - AND TELL HIM SO. No need to get into any meaningless arguement where he will throw Arabic at you!

Arjun and Hamidm2 speak that language very well. So does Saleem Chauhan.

best of luck

nhk

the solution is to expose the mullahs............do some sting operations............video them having it with their favourite whores and kids............video them taking bribes for passing a fatwa and misusing the funds.............expose them thoroughly showing the mullah`s corrupt practices before the en tire world..........stop protecting them and justifying their actions.............expose them for taking gullible muslims for a ride in their self assigned role as the arbitrator between individuals in matters pertainingto family and Islam..........expose them of their self assigned role of being the protectors of Islam or the sole authority which can ``correctly`` interpret the constitutional basis of Pakistan................

Do you have the guts???

A well reasoned and timely analysis just according to current plight of pakistan, its awam and their needs and wants. you have reminded the narration of a zalim badshah by khalil jibran where the state was governed by thousands of rules punishing the poor people and still it had no justice.
You have very truly spoken for the sake of ummah the language they know and what should be taught to them.
The cool side of `shariah` is exposed and for the first time I liked ``Omer Bin Khattab`` being quoted though he was too a desperate, obessed `amir-ul-momineen`.

Great views and keep writing and make people realize the ones who should.

Ballu

Well said.

NHK,

You are right when you say it is time to confront them and tell them they are wrong.

I just want to point out ... for the record .... on this website and in real life in Lahore, the only person who has spoken consistently against the Mullahs and the Hudood Ordinances and written article after article against them and their mode of thinking on this website is MOI. All of you have to do is see the Mullah series I wrote on this website.

Everyone else has been too caught up in proving themselves liberal and progressive to actually do so... To want to be rid of this crime and injustice one has to have a sense of ownership with the country... that ownership is lacking amongst those who would want more examples of things going wrong for their own self aggrandizement.


-YLH

crap article fit for a third rate website. the only people who have the ability to stop the scumbag mullahs in mma are a part of the government.



Supporters of the Muthidda Quami Movement (MQM), a pro-Musharraf ally in the government, protest in Karachi August 24, 2006, against the behaviour of Islamist legislators in the country`s lower house who have torn off the copies of a bill seeking amendments in a controversial Islamic law. The MQM supporters say that since the wording of the bill contains the name of Allah and the Prophet Mohammad, the religious clerics have indulged in a blasphemous act and should be punished. REUTERS/Athar Hussain (PAKISTAN) Email Photo Print Photo Recommend THIS PHOTO

here is the text of the bill:

http://www.dawn.com/2006/08/24/nat3.htm

Which is why MQM`s entry into Punjab should be supported whatever the argument against it...

nice article

I had read many news, reviews, like that and all the story behind,
but still fails to get the point,
that whats wrong with this new ammendment of Hudood law,
why peoples are behaving like this, against it,
there is nothing objectionable in it ,,,,,,,,,,,nothing atleast i feel

re: Unless the culprits are in the porn business, how would you get four witnesses?...

If I say that I am suffering from diabetes then you will believe that I do have diabetes.

what if you ask me to prove and bring 4 witness who clearly states that I really have

diabetes. If I am the only person in my family alive then I`ll bring the doctor who treat me

along with my medical REPORTS. My reports will act like a WITNESS who assures you that I

have diabetes.

In the same manner, time has change we do not have good ppl any more but SHARIA,

QURAN and PROPHET tells us that you need 4 witnesses stillTHEY WERE NOT FOOL,YOU

NEED BRAINS IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND QURAN. QURAN SAYS 4 WITNESS HUMAN OR

MACHINE IT DOESN`T MATTER IN THESE DAYS AS LONG AS THEY ARE PROVE.

This can be Solved by modern technology. If some one is raped then he/she could be

examined by the appropriate team of doctors & the scientific prove will defend that

individual acting as WITNESSES for the crime that was comitted. Whether it was a RAPE or

ZINNA, even this can be answered by Modern Medical Examination. Therfore, you can stay

Modern and you will get JUSTICE. Sadly OUR so called GOVERNMENT leader are no

more then shit in a bag. They claim themselves to be Ph.D and they don`t have a single

cell to think about their religion and their society & how to merge them equally. WHAT A

WASTE OF INTELLIGENCE

Faisaluno # 9

You are right.

If MQM was not there, Karachi would have been made hell by these gunks by now. MQM is the only bold party not to minc words.

(All previous follies of MQM are washed off by their present policies)

nhk

Nice article, but what is quite crappy about it is that the author on the one hand is arguing about how despicable the Shariah inspired Laws are, and on the other hand giving example of what the Prophet did or didn’t do. Any public policy debate should have no place for what someone did ions ago. No one should give even a minute thought about what was done in 7th century Arabia to look at what needs to be done in today’s Pakistan. I wonder how many of these MMA’s leaders’ daughters have been raped and their daddy’s asked them to produce 4 male witnesses and they produced their bearded uncles.

Re: # 13
It is true that Karachi is saved by MQM but dont be overly proud. If MQM was really so much against MMA then how come MMA always is able to hold a rally in Karachi successfully. Dont take me wrong. I hate those mullahs but if MQM really wants to show that they are against those mullahs, then MQM workers should not let the Mullah rally happen.

Also Kulharee, Pakistan is built on Islam and saying that what someone did ions ago should not be done is competely wrong. Our beloved Prophet (PBUH) and sahabas lived their life as an example for all of us. We should be lookig at their lives to learn.

Dear Hassanmahmood,

While I can destroy this argument that Pakistan was built on Islam to bits... I am going to instead suggest that even if we accept that Pakistan was built on Islam (and therefore requires Islamisation- eventhough such Islamisation is counterproductive to any hope of Muslim unity ab initio) ... any Islamisation that has to happen must happen through a democratic process and the constitution ....

Hudood Ordinance was a 1000 times worse than the Hisba Bill... there isn`t a single minute chance of it passing through the legislature.

Note to the Author and the Editor.

All the PBUH, SWTs and RAWs and other attachments make it a stumbling read of an article which is not necessarily read by devouts alone. You can perhaps have a footnote which says please assume a PBUH (or SWT or RA etc) if you like as is appropriate. The least editors can do is suggest this to the authors.

Re: # 17

> You can perhaps have a footnote which says please assume a PBUH (or SWT or RA etc) if
> you like as is appropriate.

I think these guys have a law or something against it ... I dont think that can be done. The
poor author might get killed !

:P

Re: # 17

Jung Ji, why such a worry over suffixes? I don’t think they take anything away from the discussion? Our beloved Maseeh Maood Imam Mehdi Sayedna Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Binafsul Aziz Remhatulla Eleh, may peace and blessings be upon him and his followers, has always advised us Ahmadis to show utmost respect to Mohammad.

Before I rant on, Let me again for sake of clarity say that i am not the author, i just share the name with him.

Dsicovererrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:

Bhai aap ghussa thook dein. Jiss baatt ka pata nahii hotta uss mein itna garam nahii honna chayayy. Aaap nay bilawajayy mein itni tawanayii sarf kii. There have been numerous religious scholars who have said that for ``RAPE`` (which is a crime, not just a sin, i hope you see the difference here), you don`t need four witnesses. DNA test will suffice. Who told you that Quran and sharia and the prophet (PBUH) said that for ``RAPE`` you need 4 witnesses? Before you and others like you get your knickers in a knot, research!All the authentic & classisc religious scholars have said that since ``RAPE`` is a crime, one witness will be enough, or just the testimony of the victim plus some evidence, whether its medical or whatever, that will suffice.

I would comment on other posts and their retardedness, but we have a saying in Urdu ``Keechar mein pathar phaynknayy say, cheentayy apnayy oopar hi aatayy hein``. Abb kutta hayy bhaii, bhonkayyy ga nahii too kya ghazal sunayayye gaa.

I have said it many times, the thing about hindus & there religion is that they can never ever give an intelligent justification of ``burning the wife when the husband dies`` or ``sticking ur hand behind cow`s ass n wait for her to pee soo u can ``pavitar`` urself with the holy-piss``. Or how is it that a retard Brahman is superior to an intelligent Shudar. I mean I can go on and on, but i digress. So by all means nag about (PBUH) and (RAW), and don`t worry no one will ask you about worshiping genitalia or human sacrifice, we know you are ashamed and don`t have an explanation and frankly we feel sorry for you because you see, nature hasnt been good with u guys. You are the ulgiest nation on the face of this earth, you can`t enjoy bihari kabab, and then you will burn in hellfire for eternity. I have tears in my eyes. Oh beef niharii umm i m out ppl. Short attention span, what are you gonna do, noone said i was perfect.

Ahmer Sahib,
An excellent article that does justice to our common outrage at yet another legacy of Zina-owl-Hack. I say first we ban ``Allah Hafiz`` and then we blow up the entire Hudood Ordinance Factory. In fact, I am so motivated that we should push through legislation that legalizes recreational sex. It`s about time we Muslims stop our obsession with sand, camels, dates, and beards. OK - we can keep the dates, but we need to stop being a religion that seems to be totally against sex - yet manages to have the highest productivity of all.

Kulharee #19, {``Our beloved Maseeh Maood Imam Mehdi Sayedna Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Binafsul Aziz Remhatulla Eleh, may peace and blessings be upon him and his followers, has always advised us Ahmadis to show utmost respect to Mohammad.``}

Shri Hajrat Zanaab Mohtaram Qibla Qutubuddin Bukbuk Sahib Axewalley Rematoolahallaih Ji,

Thank you for pointing out that use of acronyms like SWAT, PBUH, PECHS, PIBC, PDIC, WAPDA, and FATA is just as irreverent as not using the blessings at all. Goodonya.

Jang #17, {``All the PBUH, SWTs and RAWs and other attachments make it a stumbling read of an article which is not necessarily read by devouts alone. You can perhaps have a footnote which says please assume a PBUH (or SWT or RA etc) if you like as is appropriate. ``}

Jang,
How dare you suggest such a simple and rational suggestion to us at a time when we are confronted with the complex issue of whether a rape victim should be incarcerated for engaging in sexual pleasures? I mistook you for a sincere, compassionate, and logical person. :)

Hasanmahmood #15 {``It is true that Karachi is saved by MQM but dont be overly proud. If MQM was really so much against MMA then how come MMA always is able to hold a rally in Karachi successfully. Dont take me wrong. I hate those mullahs but if MQM really wants to show that they are against those mullahs, then MQM workers should not let the Mullah rally happen.``}

Hasan Sahib,
If MQM thwarted MMA from holding its rally, then MQM would be no better than MMA, PPP, ML, and the Rangers. True democracy means allowing the opposition their time in the sunshine - regardless of how much rain they pray for. :)

nazarhayatkhan #13 {``You are right.
If MQM was not there, Karachi would have been made hell by these gunks by now. MQM is the only bold party not to minc words.
(All previous follies of MQM are washed off by their present policies) ``}

Khan Sahib,
I applaud your objectivity in recognizing the reformed MQM. Politics, like any other endeavor, is an evolutionary process. I am quite optimistic at the redefinition of MQM and its appearance on the Punjab scene.

#10, Mantolives {``Which is why MQM`s entry into Punjab should be supported whatever the argument against it... ``}


Manto Bhai,
...and may I recommend Tahmed16 as the MQM`s Punjab chairman? :)

#23 salim, stop hurling abuses like compassionate..i prefer to be dispassionate.

Aboute rape, apparently there is a hadith that a witness once said that he had witnessed a rape. at which point the witness was awarded blinding on one eye and chopping off left hand..the arguement was, if you were a witness, you should have proclaimed an immediated jihad against such opression. i am not sure why left hand was chopped.

nazarhayatkhan #4 {``Sharia is nothing more than the history of the Abbasid Arabs. How can you make history as your Regulations?
And how come `Quran`, supposed to be an all all-encompassing book, missed out on `Rape`; and it had to put into the `Penal Code`. ``}

Khan Sahib,
Two excellent points that you have listed. :) Good for you, sir. If in their pursuit of religious extremism, the abominable Wahabbis can make holy persons irrelevant, why can`t we moderate Muslims make so-called holy cows, such as Sharia, Hadiths, and narrow interpretations of the Holy Koran, less domineering in our mundane laws?

Jang #27, {``Aboute rape, apparently there is a hadith that ...``}

Jang,
In my refined spirit of accomodation with fellow Chowkies, please accept my sincere apology for calling you ``compassionate.`` It won`t happen again. :)

Now, as far as this or many other Hadiths are concerned, I have stopped paying attention to them. I have a problem with people fighting over, killing, dying, planning around, and especially, legislating important laws on the basis of what so and so said to so and so, while walking from here to there, in a place we forget, at a time we have very little knowledge about, concerning issues that we know people in antiquity were very misinformed over. In short, if every community and nation started to base all their laws on what was rumored to have been said or was written is some ancient text in a long-forgotten language or dialect.

Arjun_M,

I am impressed by your exemplary mominocity in the countless hours of research and selfless effort that you have expended in the service of Ummahdom. Exposing the faults of our leaders and the sad state of our society is the first task every momin - and, sir, you are first among the suntanned ones. :) We are all indebted to you for your courageous sincerity and uncompromising jihad against the enemies of the true faith. May I suggest that you now move up to the next level of your endeavors - from research to rectification? May Allah bless you with 72 Draupattis in the hereafter.

Re: # 20

To my former Hindu Brother ahmer ...

Sanatan Dharma 101:

> how is it that a retard Brahman is superior to an intelligent Shudar....

Prashna:
rajan kulena vrttena svadhyayena shrutena va
brahmanyam kenabhavati prabruhyetatsu nishcitam

King, how does one become a Brahmin: by birth?
character? study of the Vedas? education? Tell me precisely.

Uttar:
shrnu yaksha kulam tata nasvadhyayo nacashrutam
karanam hi dvijatve ca vrttameva na samshayha

Listen, Yaksha, it is neither birth nor education, nor even the study
of the Vedas. Without doubt, it is character alone that marks a Brahmin.

Simple. Ain`t it ??

Re: # 27

jang

``Aboute rape, apparently there is a hadith that a witness once said that he had witnessed a rape. at which point the witness was awarded blinding on one eye and chopping off left hand..the arguement was, if you were a witness, you should have proclaimed an immediated jihad against such opression. i am not sure why left hand was chopped.``

Really or just `apparently`? We must have such a hadees, attributed to Jang (RAT), even if there was none before, to be incorporated in the compilation `New Bukhari`.

Four eye witnesses for zinna in action! Why not film it with a mobile? Ha ha ha! No body dares to admit that the Quranic injunction to this effect was only to prevent accusation (tohmat) of zinna, specifically against Hazrat Aishah and not to prescribe any general law against zinna.

I would like to ask the following questions from the Ullemas of chowk:-

1. Have they not read in Qurane Hakeem the story of Hazrat Yousaf having been falsely accused of attempt to rape by a woman of Egypt of Pharaoh’s time and as a result got jailed?

2. Have they not heard the story of Ajeeba, a Kashmiri girl, who had accused a doctor of the Mayo Hospital of rape and got him jailed? She later withdrew her allegation and all this incident was treated by the Supreme Court just a hoax, making a joke of all Hadood and the common law of the land, providing only juicy reports for the press. Paradoxically, it is the same judiciary which is treating wedding meals as a serious crime and sending poor bridegrooms to jail for entertaining their guests.

3. Is not the woman who alleges to have been raped not confessing in the first place of having been subjected to zina and secondly accusing, repeat accusing, someone of raping her? Can confession and accusation be treated equally, both for the purpose of evidence and punishment?

4. And above all, what about Mukhtaran Mai who became the `Rape Queen` just by accusing Mastoies of rape?

Salim pai, others,

Maybe I spoke too soon about MQM...

Amer Liaqat Hussain is apparently declaring that marital rape is ok.

Now that is really ridiculous - coming as it did from a government minister countering another government minister.

Re: # 31

Wiseguyin Mahoday,

Jai Shri Ram. I am envious of your grasp of Sanskrit. Pity our Macaulayite education never taught us more than rudiments.

Warm Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 20
Ahmer,

There is no justification for a wife burning in a pyre. Sati mata after whom this Sati pratha is named immolated herself in a pyre WHILE her husband was alive.

The crime she punished HERSELF was for disobeying her Husband Bhagwan Mahadev and listening to him get abused by her own father.

Bhagwan Mahadev led by his cohorts Nandi, Sheshnag and others wrecked terrible vengeance on his father-in-law. Later Bhagwan Mahadev punished himself by doing ghor Tapsya (Tapasya from tapna to burn).

So a true Sati is not one who burns himself on her husbands pyre but in the case of his dying lives as a Suhagan (holding the memory of her husband and her atma as present) and carries forward his vision/good work/wishes.

Unlike what you Mozzies claim as perversions of Islam but what the Mullahs prove by fiqah and qiyas this is truly a perversion of our religion.

Also at times Sati has been equated with Jauhar which was a ritual mass suicide by Hindu women when their city or fort was in danger of falling into the hands of Muslims invaders to prevent dishonour, slavery or concubinage at their hands, death before dishonour being the credo of most Hindus except for probably your ancestors and a couple of more million cowards like them.

Regards
Sanatani

Mantolives:

It was the democratically elected sarhad assembly that posed a ban on any public musical performance, it was the same assembly that banned the faces of women on billboards. It was all in the ``spirit`` of Islam as dictated by the constitution. How many main stream political parties have done anything substantial against it? zero.

It is ironically the dictator who is stopping the Mullah in the NWFP from carrying out his dream, the same dictator who didnt allow the ``hugely`` popular Nawaz Sharif from declaring himself the Ameer ul Momineen. While it was the democratically elected Quaid A Awam who declared the Ahmadi a Kafir, something that was almost unanimously cheered by all political parties.

Come to the NWFP and talk to people, the majority wants sharia and they are disgusted with the greedy mullah for not delivering on his promise.

So it does not matter what Mr. Jinnah said or didnt say, the reality is that this land was ``liberated`` for the muslims i.e. people who believe in Islam (an ideology), and this islamization is a natural consequence of partition.

Re: # 20

The same old rants, poor chaps!

>>>You are the ulgiest nation on the face of this earth, you can`t enjoy bihari kabab, and then you will burn in hellfire for eternity.<<<<

The whole world knows who are the ugliest! Ha ha ha.

A Serious reply:

On Sati:

There were many Hindu law books, called Smritis, nowhere was it mentioned - though those books are of changing nature in different ages - about this necessity of widow burning. Sati was mostly limited to Rajputs in northenr India.

On Drinking of cow uirne:

It`s also a rare practice of a few madcaps under the guise of religion. Nowhere was it prescribed. I never heard or saw it anybody doing it.

Brhaman Vs Shudar:

How is it different from a low caste vs high caste hate in Pakistan?

On Worship of Genetalia:

It`s an ancient practice of phallus worship, attributing repodudictive abilities of phallus. Tell me why you worship a god who has none?

On Human sacrifice:

Where when?

Look at YOUR Human sacrifice:

Yestrday`s International Herald Tribune front page:

ROME

A man of Pakistani origin has been detained in northern Italy on suspicion of murdering his daughter because she had an Italian boyfriend and refused to conform to an Islamic lifestyle, the police said.

Mohammed Saleem and a relative had been taken in for questioning in the slaying of 21-year-old Hina Saleem, whose body was found buried in the garden of the family home in the nearby town of Sarezzo. The police said that the young woman`s throat had been slit.

Poser:

Small brains, big mouths!!!! Anyway the US would take care of you guys.

Faisaluno # 9

How do you paste pictures? Kindly enumerate the procedure.

nhk

re.Ahmed Muzammil

``Once Omer (May Allah be pleased with him) was on his daily walk while he was the ruler of the Islamic Empire. He thought he heard the sound of music coming from a home, so he jumped over the wall to inquire because it was against the law at that time. The lady of the house got furious with his ruler that how dare he entered her house without her permission, Islamic shariah puts unprecedented sanctity of privacy and Omer (may Allah be pleased with him) realizing his grave mistake was apologetic and asked for forgiveness from her. ``

From wher you brought this fake Hadith. I know you heard it on TV. This is a example of how people make Hadith for themselve. Ever heard of SAI BUKHAREE or SAI MUSLIM, even shia never heard of this hadith. Maybe you got mixed-up with Muhammad bin Qasim

I have given you an example of how Consensual-sex can be proven and how 4 witness space can be filled as this issue was taken seriously by Islamic scholars in SAUDI ARABIA in 1993. MAGHAR SHAYAAD app koo zaraa darsay samac aataa hai.

My suggestion: try researching seriously.

Discoverer:

Quite frankly i didn`t understand squat what your point was in the first. Again for the ampteenth time, i am not the author so if your responding to me then i wouldnt be able to comment on the resources of the author. I do however have heard of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. In adition i have also heard Of Tirmidhi, Maja and dawood all of which are considered authentic sources in Islamic Jurisprudance. I agree one should not quote a hadith if the chain of narration is weak, however just because ``Maulana Discoverer`` says its not a hadith, i wouldnt buy it, give me some time and i`ll look it up. Don`t start a shia-sunni thing here but why in the world would you think that Shia`s ahadith would list any story that would paint a favorable picture of Omer (RAW)? Show just a bit of intellect in your posts so one can take you seriously.

I said in my previous posts, i refuse to have any serious debates over theology with ``Khasis``. We can discuss bollywood, the art of making donuts and motels. Thats pretty much it. Do consider my dillema, it`s hard to rationalize with a people who in this day and age get mass abortions as soon as the sonogram says ``Its a girl``! You guys have a long way to civility, when you r in the vicinity give us a ring-ding we`ll give u directions, i doubt we`ll be getting that call anytime soon.

Manto;
Aamir liaquat has as much to do with Islam as Hinddooss has to do with deodrant. Aamir liaquat as a religious minister is the biggest joke of our generation. Am i the only one who can see the hypocracy and fakeness just flowing like river nile, everytime he opens his mouth. MQM has done some great things, but to give blanket loyality to a party or to an individual like he was the apostle or something is as dictatorial as it gets. I refuse to believe that every single person in Jamat-e-Islami is a bad person just because he is in Jamat-e-Islami, I am ashamed to say that it was engrained in our heads in early 80`s that all punjabi`s are bad people. Really? Faiz, habib Jalib, Iqbal, Malik mairaj Khalid, should i go on? I mean anyone who has just a bit of sense at all can see the remifications of this idiotic indoctrination. I am not talking about political correctness, but whoever amongst us has actually lived in pakistan, knows full well what a mess it was in eighties and ninties. We would get videos of Massacare`s in Aligarh colony and orangi like we are getting now from Gaza and west bank, and very rarely does a camera lie. The hatred and the fault was on both sides of the divide and I thank Allah swt that we have come a long way from those sad days. I know Saleem Bhai might not like me after this but We can criticize Jamat as a political party just as we should be able to question Peeran-e-peer Altaf Bhai. Problem arise when we equate questioning our party leaders as blasphemy, that kills the spirit of democarcy, the bird that we all seem to love and adore so much. I read somewhere on chowk that famous columnist hassan nisar was attacked and injured if infact thats true, its rather sad. He is one of the most honest, courageous and logical voice on our landscape and its quite depressing that we still can`t forgive peopel for having an opinion. Magar mayoosi gunnah hay nasir kazmi nay kaha tha,

Mayri jaan aaj ka ghum na kar,
kay najanay katib-e-waqt nay,

Kisii apnay kal mein hi bhool kar,
kaheen likh rakheen hoon musratein.

Macacas demonstrating in pakistan yesterday, demanding their ``islamic`` right to put women behind bars while letting the rapists go free.

LETS NOT FORGET THE PAST.PAKISTAN IS A DOOMED COUNTRY BUILT ON DEAD BODIES AND MASSACRES.NO WONDER ITS A FAILED NATION.

Competitive Massacre

Posted Monday, Sep. 8, 1947
While the orchestra at Lahore`s Falett`s Hotel played quietly for dancing, European guests drank cocktails on the moonlit terrace. Beyond earshot of the music, whole blocks of buildings lay gutted. Streets were bare and silent. Over the deserted railroad station the smell of corpses hung.
One-seventh of Lahore, capital of the Punjab, had been destroyed. Scores of nearby towns and villages had been razed. War—or rather, competitive massacre—between Moslems and Sikhs had reached a pitch of horror that made the Indian Mutiny of 1857 look like a mere street brawl. In two weeks, between 40,000 and 150,000 people had been killed in the Punjab. Most of the bodies were too hacked and charred to be recognized. At least a million were homeless.
``Never during two wars have I seen such sights as I have seen these last two days,`` said a middle-aged British colonel at Lahore airport. ``All those atrocity yarns we used to hear, such as Germans cutting Belgian children`s hands off and raping and then killing women, have suddenly come true in the Punjab during the last week.``
``The Joy of Fraternization.`` For months the Punjab`s communal hatred had been boiling up into slaughter. A previous climax came last spring when hundreds were killed in riots there (TIME, March 17). In mid-August the partition of the Punjab between India and Pakistan left 1.6 of the 3.8 million Sikhs in the province under Moslem rule; at least twice as many Moslems remained on the Indian side of the border in a new East Punjab state.
The Sikhs are an offshoot of the Hindu religion; they organized 300 years ago to resist militantly Moslem oppression. The British had used the warlike Sikhs extensively, giving them land and offices, especially in the fertile, predominantly Moslem West Punjab. In consequence, the Moslems hate Sikhs far more than they do Hindus.
The rest of India was relatively quiet. In once turbulent Calcutta, Mohandas K. Gandhi, still striving for Hindu-Moslem unity, was able to write of the situation there: ``One might almost say the joy of fraternization is leaping up from hour to hour.``
There was no fraternization in the Punjab. At Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, organized gangs of Sikhs had exterminated or driven out the Moslem minority population (150,000). Moslems in Lahore and other Pakistan border regions retaliated against the Hindus and Sikhs there.
Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who had conceived Pakistan in hatred and was now its president and undisputed boss, sent to the West Punjab as governor his faithful follower, the Khan of Momdot. The bland, moonfaced Khan had served four years in the Punjab Legislative Assembly without opening his mouth. When he got to the West Punjab, he acted. With his province literally in flames, the Khan of Momdot relaxed regulations that had restricted the carrying of firearms; he also decreed that every man could wear a sword, provided it was covered.
Some of his subordinates went further. The Moslem deputy commissioner of one of the Western Punjab districts mourned a son killed on the Indian side of the border. Said he to the young Moslems: ``You have full liberty to go the limit.
Take revenge as you like, but if there is one Hindu or Sikh left alive in my district after you are through, I swear to kill them myself.``

The Canal Turned Pink. TIME Correspondent Robert Neville flew over the area last week, then talked with refugees and correspondents fleeing from the carnage. Neville cabled:
``Just flying over the Punjab today with a landing here & there gives a feeling that terrible things have happened below. The number of smoking villages that can be counted from Ambala up to Lahore must be at least 150. Here & there can be seen a big town like Sialkot and Gujranwala, where charred black districts tell the story that here the property of one entire community was wiped out.
``The panorama of West Punjab seems even worse. In hitherto peaceful districts like Montgomery and Lyallpur there is not one town which has not been a battlefield. There is no bazaar which has not been burned out. Streams of refugees can be seen approaching all bridges, and over some roads they form virtual convoys miles long. On a ten-mile stretch of road leading to the big bridge over the Sutlej River into Pakistan, there must have been 100,000 people, most of them walking beside bullock carts piled high with their sole possessions.
``At Lahore`s Central Station, Sikh and Hindu refugees from North or West Punjab were mobbed on the platform, often stabbed to death and their few belongings looted. A major incident involved a big convoy carrying perhaps 1,000 from Sialkot to Amritsar. The convoy was stopped and attacked at the Ravi River bridge. Hundreds were stabbed to death and other hundreds wounded.
``Refugees from Lyallpur in West Punjab say that so many Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their bodies thrown into the canal that the canal actually had a pinkish color for a day after. Moslem refugees told how Sikhs stripped and paraded Moslem women through the streets, raped them and then killed them. British correspondents reported having seen dead, naked women lying about villages of the Amritsar district.``
A Look of Satisfaction. ``Although railway administrations of both Dominions have doggedly tried to keep a skeleton schedule going, they have now given up. For days on end no trains arrived in Delhi without having been attacked and looted practically all along the route.
``Near Jullundur, a band of Sikhs held up a train, methodically searched all compartments and pulled out 17 Moslems, whom they beheaded on the platform. Most amazing of all was the look of bland satisfaction on the faces of these young Sikh men, their hands dripping blood, their clothes smeared with blood, as they stood and grinned at their handiwork while the train finally pulled out. The only Moslems who escaped on this trip were two who were hidden by two British officers under their baggage.
``A British correspondent traveling in the opposite direction through this territory saw half a dozen lying stabbed on the Lahore platform, slowly dying without any help being given. Later that night, on a small siding south of Amritsar, a band of Sikhs entered his compartment and before his eyes beheaded a Moslem apparently trying to travel disguised as a Hindu. (For identification, both sides use the tried and true means of seeing whether there has been circumcision. Moslems always circumcize, the Hindus and Sikhs practically never.)
``A member of the U.S. Embassy arrived in Lahore from Delhi with another tale of horror. Reaching the small station of Okara, near Montgomery, he found the station platform utterly deserted except for several hundred dead Hindus and Sikhs lying around the platform, apparently slaughtered only a few hours before while waiting for the train to escape. All these people were workers in a textile mill which had been attacked by Moslems. Their bodies were mostly stripped and in several instances limbs had been torn from the bodies. The wife of a British textile factory manager told how a Moslem mob had attacked the Hindu and Sikh workers in another factory. When Moslems broke into the ground floor, the Sikhs slashed the throats of their own wives, and afterwards tried to fight through themselves. All were killed.``
Authorities were utterly unable to cope with the situation. In many cases both Sikh and Moslem police had participated in the riots. British soldiers, present in the Punjab, were not allowed to interfere under the arrangements now in force for Indian independence.
No Plans. For the homeless, crippled refugees, no one had anticipated relief measures. In New Delhi a penniless Hindu woman from the West Punjab clutched her two children, told of her husband`s murder by Moslems. ``Don`t ask her about her plans,`` cautioned a welfare official, ``she hasn`t any and neither have we.``
The rioting was breaking down railroad traffic between parts of India and Pakistan. Unless it was soon restored, both nations, especially Pakistan, would be economically crippled. Fearing that the Punjab rioting would spread, millions of Hindus and Moslems prepared to cross borders in a transfer of population greater than Europe had ever seen.
In his new capital, Karachi, Jinnah preached that ``restraint is necessary.`` However, the fires of communal hatred, which he had fanned for 20 years, were burning too brightly in the Punjab to be easily stifled. They might spread


From the Sep. 8, 1947 issue of TIME magazine

Re: # 40

``Its a girl``! You guys have a long way to civility, when you r in the vicinity give us a ring-ding we`ll give u directions, i doubt we`ll be getting that call anytime soon.

Baby I think you really need help from me. You are suffering from a diesease which I only I can treat you. Remember I am moulana discoverer. If you really failed to understand my post then stop creaking your head in this place. Beside I always wanted to meet a Hawaldar, so my dear ahmed hawaldar stop giving unnecessary direction to everyone. You really won`t get any call anytime soon.

I agree totally with the author of this article. The Hudood Ordinance is a man made document and flawed and therefore should be amended. This is not to say I am criticising Hudood Laws in themselves but there are many conditions before they become eligible to be applied and justice is just one of them. In the current state Pakistani society is in (and this goes for all Islamic countries) Hudood cannot be applied.

There is a hadith which encourages judges to try to find reasons NOT to apply hudood punishments.

Re: # 38

nhk:

``How do you paste pictures? Kindly enumerate the procedure. ``

using this, put the url between the quotation marks.

img src = ``url ``

use < and > at the beginning (before img src) and end (after ``url``) of the above sentence.

This url can be obtained by right-mouse click on the photo and selecting ``properties``, then copy the address/url and paste in ahead of the img src.

#45 contd..

use < and > at the beginning (before img src) and end (after ``url``) of the above sentence, respectively.

This url can be obtained by right-mouse click on the photo and selecting ``properties``, then copy the address/url (by highlighting it) and paste in place of url, between `` and ``.

Mantolives #33 {``Salim pai, others,
Maybe I spoke too soon about MQM..
Amer Liaqat Hussain is apparently declaring that marital rape is ok.``}

Manto Bhai,
If indeed he said that, then I hope that he gets married to Fazloo and the latter has his way with him. :)

Re: # 41

One benefit of `47 partition was that most of the bearded Langurs from India migrated to Pakistan -- where they insist that a Muslim woman must be raped before 4 pious simians -- if not -- then the woman raped the man -- following the age old dictum -- seeing is believing -- no bearded seeing is no believing.

now who has heard in one`s wildest of the wildest Kafkaesque nightmares -- a `law` like that -- that can`t even be amended even trivially -- before tahmed`s maccaccas will be out on the streets gesticulating for more voyeurism.

no wonder that -- Heretic Hirsi -- the naughty Somalian Muslim woman -- wrote some of those -- I guess -- irrelevant Koranic Ayats on the naked bruised battered body of a badly beaten Muslim woman.......

......btw -- if Fazoolurrhan (the God`s reject) would like -- India should ship the remaining hirsute monkeys to Pakistan along with their cages of Muslim Personal Law.......for enlightened scientific research on more stringent Hudood Laws....

The stone-age ape khasis teach Indians civility......He he he....these khasi know how to ape the pre-modern apes of Arabia....

Theology....is it theology?

Woshipping pahllus is better than worshipping one who doesn`t have .....

Tail in hind legs.... He he he...

Some of our other sex issues needing religious intrepratation


Sex without wife’s consent rape: Kashmala

``http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/images/2006/08/26/20060826_04.jpg``

ISLAMABAD: Kashmala Tariq, a member of the NA Select Committee on Women’s Protection Bill, proposed that a husband having sex with his wife without her consent should be tried under rape charges. Kashmala said at a Select Committee meeting that men should not have sex with their wives against their will. She said that married women should not be treated like “buffaloes”. Kashmala told Daily Times that committee members Mehnaz Rafi, Zahid Hamid and Wasim Sajjad had endorsed her viewpoint.

``http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/images/2006/08/26/20060826_05.jpg``

No, it is unIslamic to stop husbands: Aamir

ISLAMABAD: Dr Aamir Liaqat Hussain, minister of state for religious affairs, opposed Kashmala’s proposal that men having sex with their wives be tried under rape charges, saying that it was “un-Islamic to stop husbands from having sex with their wives even if they were doing so without their consent”, sources told Daily Times. Aamir quoted Surah Nisah to defend his contention. Noorul Haq Qadri and Sher Afgan Niazi defended girls’ marriages at an early age. Niazi referred to marriage of Prophet (PBUH) to Hazrat Ayesha (RA), the sources added.

nhk

Netizen

Thanks. I did put before and after the Image.

Anyway, I seemed to have goofed up somewhere. Those images were important.

In you own time, some time also tell me about Highlighting the TEXT. Sorry for taking these IT classess with you.

nhk

Re: # 20

A brahmin is superior to a shudra in the same way a sayyad is to a non-sayyad. Hope this helps :)

Netizen

Sorry for Spamming. Just give the specimen text. I will understand how to do it.
(nazarhayatkhan@yahoo.com)

nhk

Nasah,

Ha ha ha. Talk about scoring points at our expense by turning facts on their head...

Not only did the Langurs from Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and most religious parties, being as they were the greatest allies of Congress, stay behind in India (and made their stances plane in the Shahbano and Imrana cases) ...

Your favorite Langoor Fazlurrahman, the son of old Congress ally Mufti Mahmood, has never shied away from saying that he never supported the creation of Pakistan and would rather see it reunited ... his father had famously declared at the fall of Dacca in 1971 ``Thank god we were not party to the sin of making Pakistan``.

Therefore, I hope that you would stop this monkey business of projecting this backwards... using the logic that you fellows use, Mufti Mahmood, FazluRahman and his ilk came into politics after a certain Mahatma Gandhi encouraged Mullahs to rise up during the Khilafat movement and overturn non-clerical Muslim leadership... using your logic- one could say that Fazlurrahman and the other langurs you decry - what should we make of the facts?

PS: The fact that this law was not passed by an elected legislature ... but by an ordinance by a military dictator (supported by ANP, Mufti Mahmood, JI and other old historically anti-Pakistan forces) would obviously be a very inconvenient a fact for people like Saharanpuri and other Indians who are meddling on this board for god knows what reason.

Pakistan`s national assembly today is divided between those who care about the country, where it is going and how it should be run .... and those who don`t or have other more pressing agendas.

The former - the caring Pakistanis- are those patriots (Aitzaz Ahsan, Sherry Rahman, Syed Kabir Ali Wasti, Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri, Farooq Sitar, Kashmala Tariq etc) and sons and daughters of the soil whose antecedents had toiled for the creation of the country, who had toiled for democracy and who fought against martial laws of Ayub and Zia... these are the people who want hudood laws amended because they consider it the very antithesis of their Pakistaniyat...

The latter... those who are the uncaring types (Fazlurrahman, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, Isfandyar Wali Khan) are those whose antecedents called Pakistan kafiristan and a sin (Mufti Mahmood and Maulana Maududi), who sided with Sharia-honking Fakir of Ipi in his famous rebellion against the new state (Ghaffar Khan), joined the establishment`s conspiracies against both the people of East and West in form of the infamous ``republican party`` (Dr Khan Sahab), raised the slogan of ``Nizam-e-Mustafa`` (Mufti, Wali Khan, others) and hailed Zia`s dictatorship ... Today Fazlurrahman and Qazi types are open in their opposition, while Isfandyar (presumably secular and democratic) is silent... why - because for them it is always ``Sanoo ki, khasman noo khaan``


If the former prevail... the Hudood will be amended... if the latter prevail.. we can expect much of the same.

Mantolives:

Your caring Pakistani patriots were the cheerleaders for Mush`s takeover and ``hailed`` his dictatorship (kasuri still among the faithfuls). While it was Asfandyar`s party that was the ONLY party along with the ousted PML(Nawaz Sharif) that spoke against the military take over.

If Asfandyar is to be judged by his fathers mere approval of Zia, then why shouldnt Benazir be judged by her father`s ``service`` for Ayub?

So before you start putting people on the two sides of the ``Caring`` divide dont conveniently ignore facts.

As Pakistanis we have two choices

1-Pakistan ka mutlab kya? La illaha ill Allah

YA

2-Pakistan ka mutlab kya? Goli, Curfew, Martial Law.

Kashmala Tariq`s suggestions were rejected by speakers from the liberal side, Amir Liaquat and Sher Afgan Niazi are neither fundos nor pathans so how exactly do you explain their ``unpatriotic or non-secular`` behaviour? for a reference you can go to slogan number 1.

Dear Khan Sahab,

What I find strange with the ANP crowd is that while you seek no ownership of Pakistan and its ideal, you try and claim exclusive jurisdiction over how to interpret it... Ofcourse, asking you to produce the exact resolution of the league where it declared Pakistan`s matlab to be La illah illallah would be too inconvenient for you... but like I said, in our earlier debates, these are inconvenient facts that Indians and their supporters always find hard to answer. But let us forget all of this...

Would you mind telling me how you came to the conclusion that Islam or La Illah illallah should logically translate into Hudood Ordinance... The problem here is simple. ANP, JI and Mufti`s goondas raised the slogan of ``Nizam-e-Mustafa`` in 1977 and then supported Zia`s coup against Bhutto...

And you`ve rightly pointed out that Wali Khan`s party was part of the Nawaz Sharif government (after all Wali and Zia went way back.. and Nawaz Sharif was the spiritual son of Zia ul haq) ... yes the same Nawaz Sharif Government which was trying to establish Islamic Khilafat ultra vires to the constitution and which had colluded and attacked the Supreme Court of Pakistan... Thanks for admitting that as with Fakir of Ipi and Zia ul Haq, Ghaffar khan`s progeny were collaborating with yet another anti-Pakistan demagogue (from the uncaring group) who wanted to use and abuse the Pakistanis` affiliation with Islam...

FTR ... I for one don`t blame Ghaffar Khan, Wali Khan etc for their historical stances in favor of Zia and Nawaz Sharif etc... since they did not make Pakistan, it certainly could not be expected from them to do something good for the country...

As for those who continue to support Musharraf... the reason why most liberal Pakistani nationalists chose to support Musharraf was because he promised to undo what Zia did ... 3 or 4 years later many of us realised that any unconstitutional method leads to the same destination.... some haven`t ... and others like Kasuri have made mistakes in the past as well... but it doesn`t take away from their over all outlook..

Manto,
Lumping ANP with Fazloo is not right. Things have changed and the politics have changed in NWFP. Fazloo is not his father, the Mufti nor is Isfandyar, wali khan.
We need to get out of this type of blame game.

The way the hadood ordinance was sneaked in the law books and the way it was defended for 20 years would make it hard for any government to change that in just one act. It has to be progressively demolished and pressure will need to be continually built to finally get rid of the whole law.

The problem is that the army lacks the political support and the political will to counter the mullah pressure. Both Muslim League and the Mullah are important army allies and the army is not willing to completely stand by liberal elements in Pakistan.
The major reason being that the liberals are not politically strong enough to put pressure on the army.

BB needed to come out strongly against the law as she is not going to gain any thing from cooperating with the MMA at any level at this time. BB needs to make allies with ANP and other like minded parties to create a bigger pressure group. The PPP and ANP need to support each other on issue by issue basis while still disagreeing on some other issues.

Dear HP,

It is not a question of lumping them together.

All I am giving is a possible explanation for the historic stances of these parties in supporting dictatorship (especially that which aimed at hurting Pakistan) ... and the common ground all of them shared : opposition to Pakistan`s creation. If you think I am merely using the Indian ``occam`s razor`` on their own allies.

Agreed on the rest. Army will never stand with the liberal elements ... but we mistakenly assumed it would when we supported Musharraf in 1999... the only reason we chose to support him was because we thought he had come to undo what Zia did.

Also...

``The PPP and ANP need to support each other on issue by issue basis while still disagreeing on some other issues.``

This will never happen... as we know ANP has always stood against the PPP because of its own other agendas... The major point of division between ANP and PPP is that the latter is at heart a Pakistani party while the former is uninterested in anything good for Pakistan.

Therefore, as in the past, ANP will stand with the military, the mullahs and whoeever to defeat the PPP- which represents the Pakistani Nationalists- ... because PPP, despite all it faults, stands for a liberal democratic and strong Pakistan... the success of which would mean negating the historic ANP stance against the country.

#60

``but we mistakenly assumed it would when we supported Musharraf in 1999... the only reason we chose to support him was because we thought he had come to undo what Zia did. ``

Yasser,

What made any one even mistakenly assume that he would undo what Zia did?
If the winds have not changed in the international politics, we would still be looking at the mullah as the closest army ally.

I think you are not clear on the army`s role in Pakistani politics. Army cannot govern Pakistan w/o the mullah support. The day mullah and the army decided to go separate ways; Pakistan would be a democratic country. The MMA or the Jamaat Islami are the civilian face of the army and manufactured opposition. The liberals will need to understand that.
Understand the power politics in Pakistan and then find ways to get things done. The hudood ordinance needs to go but it will take its time and it will be a long and hard struggle...

#61,

``This will never happen... as we know ANP has always stood against the PPP because of its own other agendas... ``

PPP is not some principled party. It is as opportunist as the ANP. Opportunism can be bad or good depends on how political parties takes advantage of the situation. It is not an ego issue...both the ANP and the PPP have liberal strands and they need to cooperate on issue by issue basis. When time is right to take up dispute, both parties can go their own ways.

There is no disagreement there... supporting Musharraf was a big mistake because the most benovelent dictator is worse than the worst democracy.

However there were many reasons why people like me, novices in their teens, and others older and more educated chose to support Musharraf then... I think hardly anyone can deny that Musharraf has embarked on consistent and gradual social liberalisation ... which has undone some of the suffocation that Zia had left behind and his spiritual son -Nawaz Sharif (of which ANP were proud sponsors)- had created...

Despite all of this.. there is no escaping the fact that only sustainable progress is constitutional progress.

``PPP is not some principled party. It is as opportunist as the ANP. Opportunism can be bad or good depends on how political parties takes advantage of the situation. It is not an ego issue...both the ANP and the PPP have liberal strands and they need to cooperate on issue by issue basis. When time is right to take up dispute, both parties can go their own ways.``


Agreed that both are opportunist and have some liberal strands... these two ``qualities`` are not enough to bring them together... ANP is Pushtun Nationalist and PPP is an all-Pakistan party ...

I don`t blame ANP for its politics... it is obviously a question of angles and our unique positions... but all I am saying is that it will never want anything good for Pakistan as a whole (for that would mean a negation of its own historic stand) and all I want is that once Pakistan becomes a constitutional democracy worthy of its people... we don`t allow ANP to as they say in urdu ``Ungli kaat kay shaheedon main shamil``.

Same goes for the religious parties- especially Fazlurrahman- who made his loyalties quite clear by replacing the father of the nation`s portrait with his own father`s in his public office in his chamber in the parliament.

#65 by Mantolives
“it will never want anything good for Pakistan as a whole (for that would mean a negation of its own historic stand) and all I want is that once Pakistan becomes a constitutional democracy worthy of its people... we don`t allow ANP to as they say in urdu ``Ungli kaat kay shaheedon main shamil``.”

You are representing just one pov. I think ANP folks are as patriotic as the PPP folks. One should never question the patriotism based on the political views. I support Sindhi nationalist rights and the ANP supports the Pushtoon national rights. This support is not contrary to Pak nationalism. It a difference of perspective and that should not be a reason for creating an alliance on minimum demands or find common grounds on some issues while still maintaining the dispute over the political philosophies…

``Ungli kaat kay shaheedon main shamil`` is not bad if that means broader support for the repeal of an inhuman law.

Fighting for pushtoon rights is quite different from bearing ill will towards the federation.
I used to think that ANP could transform itself into a liberal Pakistani party working to make Pakistan a truly strong and progressive country.... but now I`ve realised that ANP workers feel that Pakistan`s failure as a federation means their triumph and vindication.

The alliance between PPP and ANP has never come about for some deep seated differences. ANP and PPP having liberal strands competes from the same vote bank in NWFP... therefore ANP and PPP are natural rivals... But since ANP is smaller (and is a historical spin off of a party that willing allied itself with the worst religious parties), it allies itself either with Mufti mahmood/Fazlurrahman and the Military or as in 1997 with right wing conservatives like Nawaz Sharif.

Therefore, given that ANP is quite uninterested in Pakistan being successful or progressive ... it cannot be relied upon for support against Hudood... if anything it can be relied upon to join up with MMA which have been its allies in the past.

We need some new political parties in Pakistan who carry no excess baggage from the past and are not merely reincarnations of some discredited felon`s fan club. Nawaz, BB, Mushy, and Altaf Payee are all unnecessarily usurping too much space on the stage and are, frankly, starting to smell as a result of the rotting flesh of boring familiarity. I urge Manto Bhai to get his movement started and discard any lingering effects of ethnicity, provincialism, linguistic chauvinism, sectarian strife, and right-wing whacko fundo Sunni Wahabbist terroristic tendencies.

We need some new political parties in Pakistan who carry no excess baggage from the past and are not merely reincarnations of some discredited felon`s fan club. Nawaz, BB, Mushy, and Altaf Payee are all unnecessarily usurping too much space on the stage and are, frankly, starting to smell as a result of the rotting flesh of boring familiarity. I urge Manto Bhai to get his movement started and discard any lingering effects of ethnicity, provincialism, linguistic chauvinism, sectarian strife, and right-wing whacko fundo Sunni Wahabbist terroristic tendencies.

My last post-

To Adam Khan in 36:

1. NWFP`s MMA government was elected in a dubious manner under a dubious election.. where Musharraf, increasingly isolated from the liberals, had to show the US that democracy meant mullahs. Therefore, Madrassah degrees were legitimised and Afghan refugees were allowed to register as Pakistani citizens.

2. It is the Supreme Court of Pakistan and the Constitution of Pakistan that is stopping the Mullahs from enforcing their stupid and idiotic piece of legislation. The Hisba Bill exceeds the provincial assembly`s constitutional position... Islamisation and the interpretation of Islam is, under the current constitution of Pakistan, the sole domain of the Central legislature.

3. Nawaz Sharif`s government was, as you admitted in your later post, supported by ANP.

4. Calling Bhutto Quaid-e-Awam will not necessarily make him the equivalent of Quaid-e-Azam. But for the record... Bhutto threw the question to the assembly and it decided to declare Ahmadis outside the fold of Islam. As the son of an Ahmadi, I might disagree with Ahmadis being outside the fold of Islam... but it was the parliament`s sovereign right and I respect it while disagreeing with it. It goes without saying that Jinnah and the Pakistan Movement had relied upon Ahmadis who Jinnah refused to declare kafirs ...

5. It is amazing how you tie yourself up in knots when on the one hand you hark back to 1947 saying that the land was liberated for ``Muslims`` who believed in ``Islam`` but you refuse to accept that ``Islam`` of 1947 and ``Muslims`` of 1947 who supported Jinnah included Ahmadis as Muslims for example. Therefore... a clear distinction is made on the basis of intepretation. How can the Pakistan Movement be unimportant if it is what you are basing your case for Islamisation on?

#67 Yassar,

“but now I`ve realised that ANP workers feel that Pakistan`s failure as a federation means their triumph and vindication.”

That to some extent and from your perspective may be true. The ANP belongs to a school of thought that differed with the Muslim League interpretation of the independence struggle. One more thing that you need to understand that when you claim the 1940 resolution as the basis of Pakistan, then you actually endorse what the founding fathers of the ANP were looking for before 1947. They were looking for an independent or semi independent NWFP. Which was primarily an economic demand coupled with the political freedom to choose what was best for them. The essence of the 1940 resolution was the same. The ML asked for economic independence of Muslim majority and a political freedom to choose what was best for the Muslim majority provinces with in a United India.

The 1940 resolution was never a manifesto for independence. It was a framework for the Muslims to work within united India. Later on the whole saga took another turn but the initial reason of the Surkhposh and the Muslim League was the same. The only difference was that the Muslim league based their demand for economic independence on religion whereas the surkhposh based it on their ethnicity.

A politics based on ethnicity would be inherently secular as the ethnic camaraderie does not distinguish between religions and castes. Therefore the Surkhposh were more sympathetic to the Congress.

Not to mention that Pakistan was created within 7 years of 1940 resolution and that was a very short period of time for a political outfit to come around to see the similarities in the stand or even switch platforms. The emotional aspect of the Indian politics contributed to the schism between the ML and the Surkhposh.

The politics after 60 years is entirely different. In Pakistan no one can afford to dwell on the past. Both parties have to get together on common grounds though I am not sure if the ANP has enough influence in NWFP now, to counter the mullah surge in that province.

Saleem Bhai & others,

We should see if we can lure George Galloway to pakistan in the mean time What about Imran Khan? I am always enamoured when he speaks, always get a feeling that he is genuine and honest. He is the only politician that i have ever seen apologizing for a past indiscretion. He is quite comfertable with his religion but i do think he has a long way to go, just because we as a society has a long way to go

Dear HP,

I would have gladly accepted the ANP and its leadership along those lines had they been serious.

But it is clear - if one reads Adam Khan`s double speak for example which I have pointed out in my two posts in response to his 36 and 57- that the ANP wants to encourage its old pre-partition Islamic fundamentalist buddies (all opposed to Pakistan`s creation) to take over Pakistan by using specious and simplistic logic that since Pakistan was created for Muslims, they, the same Mullahs who opposed Pakistan, must have the right to interpret Islam for them... it is simplistic, dangerous and flies in the face of reality.

But I have many such examples that make it clear to me that ANP is committed to stopping anything progressive for Pakistan...

Mantolives:

Why are you so bent upon declaring Wali Khan as a supporter of Zia? You are stating this particular incident out of context. Bhutto had taken his rivalry with Wali Khan to the next level; he had started an enmity with Wali. Wali Khan was WRONGLY implicated in the murder of Hayat Sherpao, and that was not the only reason that he welcomed Zia there were many other reasons. For instance, The liaqat bagh massacre, the banning of NAP, Asfandyar’s capture and torture, his own imprisonment in Hyderabad and Ghaffar Khan`s exile to Afghanistan.

Now you tell me, with all of this done was he wrong in welcoming Zia? As you in your innocence thought that Musharaf was the deliverer, Wali Khan thought the same about Zia and ZAB had given him enough reason to do so.

Does this make Wali Khan the supporter of Zia!!? NO it doesn’t; why? Because neither Wali Khan NOR any one from the ANP ever took a position in any Zia backed cabinet. Through out the Afghan Jihad the ANP was at daggers drawn with the government, and was pro-Najib. When Ajmal Khattak was forced into exile he used to speak against the war from Kabul Radio, ANP was also part of the MRD which was not pro-zia as I remember it.

Infact it was Zia who took the red flag out of the hand of the Pukhtoon and handed him a lota and miswak. And yet you have the audacity to say that Wali Khan was serving Zia???

Another snippet from history for you, the PPP and ANP were alies in the 1988 election, that too against Nawaz Sharif’s IJI. surprised??? Don’t be, in the recent local body elections Haroon Bilour (ANP) was supported by the PPP here in Peshawar. So it seems the good at heart party is siding with the enemy after all.

Besides didn’t BB take Fazal Ur Rehman as one of her ministers?? How exactly would that be different from Wali Khan siding with Mufti Mahmood? would love to hear your logic.

``Ungli kaat kay shaheedon main shamil``.

If any party has Shaheeds then it’s the party of Ghaffar Khan,
Here is a list of Massacres

Qissa Khwani Massacre (conducted by the British, 1930, 400 dead)
Babara Massacre (Conducted by Mr Jinnah`s very own Qayyum Khan, August 12th 1948, 500-600 dead)
Liaqat Bagh Massacre (Conducted by the FSF of Bhutto, March 23 1973, 12 dead.)

And guess what all these massacres have in common? THEY WERE NEVER AVENGED. And we are talking about a people who are armed to the teeth, and would never forgive murder. Yet it was the charisma of Ghaffar Khan that stopped them from taking any such action. Today if one worker of JI dies after police’s havai firing, his name is written on every wall, “flaanay teray khoon say inqilaab aa yay ga” and yet it was Ghaffar Khan who forgive the slaughter of his workers, who were shot in their chests and I might add in the HUNDREDS. He could have opened a front here in the north and that too in 1948 but he CHOSE not to, he CHOSE to not take up arms. Does it sound like someone who would be in complete agreement with the Fakir of Ipi? And my friend if they had a strong relationship then you wouldn’t be quoting a “secret document” to bind the two together; you would be mentioning surprise attacks on Pakistani Garrisons or the slaughter of innocent civilians. But then Ghaffar Khan never had it in him to order slaughter unlike the orchestrators of all the massacres I mentioned above. But then hey you might know about it and yet I am sure you wont even comment on any of the above, cause the people who died werent Pakistani enough for you.

Mantolives:

NWFP`s MMA government was elected in a dubious manner under a dubious election

Were you here in NWFP when the elections were held? Did you talk to people before the election?? As far as my observation goes, people did vote for the MMA and that too in droves. You might not take my word for it, but I was shocked to see the sort of people who voted for them, their symbol “The Book” had a lot to do with it. How can you vote against the Quran? Was the question they asked.

This also speaks volumes about the general mindset of the people here. Non-violence is gone and Pro-violence is here. Gone are the days of the forgiving Pukhtoon, today the Pukhtoon is exported to Lahore and Islamabad to mess up marathons and peace symposiums. Incidently this is a time when the speaking of Ghaffar Khan is considered “Indian Influence” even by the ordinary Pukhtoons. only a blind man will refuse to see the connection.

It is amazing how you tie yourself up in knots when on the one hand you hark back to 1947 saying that the land was liberated for ``Muslims`` who believed in ``Islam`` but you refuse to accept that ``Islam`` of 1947 and ``Muslims`` of 1947 who supported Jinnah included Ahmadis as Muslims for example.

When EXACTLY did I say that? Why would I even say that? Listen, Ahmedis were muslims before Pakistan. It was the Pakistani parliament that took away their right to perform hajj. Why are you blaming me for something that the most popular prime minister of Pakistan did? It was this act that started this obsession with the pure muslim identity.

MY POINT is that this declaration of Ahmedis being converted into Kafirs is a natural consequence of partition. This land was won in the name of MUSLIMS, Islam was bound to come up. If you take Islam out of the Pakistani identity, then what exactly does a Sindhi and a Pathan have in common?

A perpetual “Hate for Hindus” cannot be the basis for a national identity. If you take ISLAM out then the term Pakistani seems meaningless.

Makes me wonder, weren’t we better off before partition???

My apologies to you if you thought I meant that all Ahmedis were Kafir, or that they didn’t have anything to do with the pre-partition freedom struggle. If an Ahmedi wants to call himself a Muslim, then so be it. Who is a sunni or a shia to stop him from doing so? But then most Pakistanis would disagree with me, and I definetly will not blame any dictatorship for that.

As for the secular Pakistan issue, well these past few weeks have shown that the liberals are stooping to the same level as the Mullah. Sher Afgan, and Mr. Alim online had given their views and the MQM wants to punish the desecrators of the “bill”. Take Mushraf away and you have a political spectrum that on secular standards would be right, and far right.

So my friend if you want secularism, it will come to you in a uniform. Even Bhutto couldnt pull it off tu phir Ameen Fahim kiss bagh key moooli hay?

P.S. Kindly do not call me an ANP supporter; nobody with a conscience would ever defend Azam Hoti, Farid Tofan or Naseem Wali.

Ahmer #72, {``We should see if we can lure George Galloway to pakistan in the mean time What about Imran Khan? I am always enamoured when he speaks, always get a feeling that he is genuine and honest. ``}

Ahmer Bhai,
I have always admired Imran Khan - whether he is winning, as in Melbourne or losing, as in his divorce. However, I am tired of our people putting all their faith in ONE great leader. We need institutions, traditions, principles, and a firm commitment to intolerance, freedom, respect for individual rights, and a culture of acceptance and laissez-faire. That is why I am supporting Manto Bhai, albeit with my fingers crossed, and all the while looking for an ever more suitable leader. Good leadership is an iterative process. :)

Ahmer #72, {``We should see if we can lure George Galloway to pakistan in the mean time What about Imran Khan? I am always enamoured when he speaks, always get a feeling that he is genuine and honest. ``}

Ahmer Bhai,
I have always admired Imran Khan - whether he is winning, as in Melbourne or losing, as in his divorce. However, I am tired of our people putting all their faith in ONE great leader. We need institutions, traditions, principles, and a firm commitment to intolerance, freedom, respect for individual rights, and a culture of acceptance and laissez-faire. That is why I am supporting Manto Bhai, albeit with my fingers crossed, and all the while looking for an ever more suitable leader. Good leadership is an iterative process. :)

Re: # 77

Saleem Bhai,

Couldn`t agree more.