Saving Pakistan with the Constitution

Harish Hindustani, I am disappointed at your use of the word ``b!tch`` for your human sister Mukhtaran Mai.

She is a living proof and symbol of truth, justice and human will power.

I did some research about her, she belongs to Gujjar tribe of pakistan and the people who raped her,...they claim to be decendents of Israel ( jacob) who was son of Isaac and Isaac was son of Sara and Abraham.

Who knows how many bloods are mixed in rapists but blood of Adam stays dominent in every case.

After your remarks and calling her low caste I did a little research on Gujjars and I found that Gujjars claim to be the oldest tribe of India and central Asia, some historians wrote them as decendents of Aryans like ``kushans``, ``khastrias`` , ``kapoors`` etc etc.

Hasan Cauhan who wrote the book `` history of Gujjars`` call himself as a Gujjar and decendant of the Raja Pirtvi Raj Cauhan.

Brahamins are the most useless and idiot people on this earth who grabbed land of natives of India and declared those beautiful people as untouchables and low class.

If this mind set will prevail then India and Pakistan will never change and never prosper...

Due to ugly Brahamins, India is backward, superstiteous and without any respect among league of nations,..

It is due to the ``pakhunds``, caste system, fictional stories and mythologies created by useless and talktive ugly looking ``Brahmins``, which they created to establish their hegemony.

Thanks God we don`t have that useless junk of fake pride in Pakistan ,..but we do have their strong influence on our society though....and Science will clean it up.

Re: # 234

Ama yaar Beejay,

Manto is Liar-e-Azam, Moron-e-Azam, Dyslexic-e-Azam and Dementic-e-Azam.

He life is confused. He`s not an equal citizen in the country he loves. He hates a group of people in India for imagined reasons or no reason. He himself faces this problem of hate but is blissfully ignorant of the (Qadiani) hate in Pakistan. Surprisingly he makes us believe that everything is hunky-dory. He lives in a pipe dream that Jinnah`s Pakistan is going to come soon though he`s light years away from Jinnah`s Pakistan. Lets not wake him up. Let him live with his porkies, big and small.

Even his best-half spent her time cooking anti-India posts and digging-up alternative news, whilst carrying their unborn baby. The offspings wud carry the hate of their parents. Nevertheless, courtesy demands that we shud congratule the arrival of their newborn baby! Congrats Manto!

#233
Ama VRV,

Normally, I would have a feast if you attacked Manto’s positions – most of which are way off the track. But let us leave Manto the person (from all accounts a good-hearted man with a loving heart (not to mention perhaps also the family cook!)) out of this.

Just imagine what ELSE is out there:

1) the khaki Mushy – who was ready with the dagger of Kargil when the Nawab was planning peace,

2) the Mullahs – whose late night dreams consist of establishing “Dar ul Islam” in the rest of the world, starting with India, of course when they are not too busy trying to figure out the most efficient techniques for cutting clitoris.

3) the “run-of-the-mill” Pakistani politicians who are competing with each other on a daily basis on how best to beat up on that “dushman” – that Hindu, which all of India has come to signify to that lot!

So, Manto is not ``too bad`` by comparison. His fault is mostly that little bit of dishonesty. The proverbial one-eyed man in the vast teeming population of blind men.

And like I told “deep pockets” Kapuria, the chances of poor Manto making any headway in that quagmire of Pakistani politics are only a bit less than his making it to the moon in one leap – i.e., one needs a substantial dosage of bhang to accomplish that feat – at least in ones’s own mind!

So let us not beat up on Manto the person. In fact, I would even like to give some advice to Mrs. Manto – which can be useful, and I would urge her to consider it seriously.

Dear Mrs. Manto, as seen in this picture, you are holding that laptop computer mouse with two hands! Ma’m, you don’t need to do that.

One hand is sufficient. So, hold it with one hand, please.

You can then put the other hand to some other truly useful activity – like boxing Manto’s ears!

Manto is a clean-chin fundoo like our Jinnah.

Manto the liar, you are NOT worthy of your education. You are a disgrace to your parents.

B4 we go to school and learn the subjects, parents instil in us some basic human values like for eg. Dont Steal, Dont Lie.... etc...etc....

It seems that your parents didnt teach these things to you or you are a congenital liar i.e. born to lie.

Why dont u jump into Ravi river and commit suicide? Your life has no value, u are worse than ur iconic Pimp, Jinnah.

Jinnah knows no religion, never prayed but ate a lot of Ham and Pork sausages whilst ogling for skimpily dressed Parsi girls whilst pretending to be socialising with some Parsi aristocrats.

He hardly socialised with other Muslims (always referred them as those dhadiwallahs) in his lifetime except when he needed some blind followers for achieving his dream of the getting power, no matter if it meant to butchering a million people.

His successors did exceed Jinnah by massacring THREE million Bengalis.

This good for nothing liar.......lawyer is trying to resurrect the sagged image of this worthless Vampire. He was eaten to death by Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, a revenge taken on behalf of the voiceless innocents who were killed for his desire for chair.

I guess he`s not enjoying his virgins in Heaven but rotting in Hell.

``Gandhi continues to be revered as one of the greatest icons of the 20th century``

And Earth`s flatness was once an article of faith and modern science for people... it doesn`t prove anything... except temporary hysteria...

History will judge Gandhi for what he really was: A racist casteist hindu misogynist bigot

Rozaiba,

You evil evil man. How dare you deliver a kick in Harish mian`s groin by suggesting that I work for the top law firm in Pakistan (after all thats just Martindale and Hubble`s analysis- it can`t be true unless Bourke-White the photographer said it.) But on a serious note... you don`t need to make call centre workers feel bad... for their unfortunate place in life.



Harish mian,

Don`t be clever by half. Now you are just going in circles... how many times must you proved a liar?

The exact words were:

<What we have done to-day is the most historic act in our history. Never have we in the whole history of the League done anything except by constitutional methods. But now we are forced into this position. Today we bid good-bye to constitutional methods. Untill now we have negotiated with the Congress and the British who have held a gun to our head. Today We have forged a pistol and we are prepared to use it. If you seek peace, we do not want War. But if you want War, we will accept it unhesitatingly.

Now I know... you`ll try go on a tangent from the said speech- even though ... evidence in Calcutta clearly proves that it was the Congress Party behind the violence... that independent investigations ruled out Muslim League culpability... and many more Muslims died than Hindus...

But more than that... this proves that either Margaret Bourk-White is a liar... or you are a liar... because as is... the Muslim League meeting was a council meeting in a boardroom.

You very cleverly skipped over the questions I asked you(which you denounced as BS- even though it proves that the scene described in your source was entirely fictional)- so I reproduce the post in toto:

---

#212 by Mantolives on September 14, 2006 3:49am PT
Dear Harish pai,

First of all, I know you have access to the said speech because you quoted it a year or so ago ... I know because I went and corrected you on some parts of it. I am sure that you have by now checked the original speech and know full well what I am saying.

As for Margaret Bourke-White... if indeed you manage to prove that it was a first hand account, then by extrapolation from the contents of speech, it would be reasonable to presume that Margaret Bourke-White was not telling the truth.... however - the poor woman has not claimed any such thing ... to say that she knew that Jinnah wore a Sherwani at the meeting and that is why you are claiming that it was a first hand account ... is worst than saying that she must be telling the truth because Simon and Schuster published her book (in that case- you might as well take Musharraf to be the gospel because they paid him a million dollars already and the rest will follow- but I won`t)...

Consider...

1. It is highly unlikely ``Fezzes`` were thrown up into the sky... because for one thing Fez was replaced by the Karakul cap and hats... if you see the pictures Muslim League meetings from 1940s onwards... you will hardly find any fez wearing leaguer... clearly like a good writer, Bourke-White was adding twist and masala to what had been narrated to her... her story sounds more like a high school graduation in the Mid West... then a meeting of the League... which was ... as is not a ``jalsa`` but a meeting of the working committee in a board room under a roof. ...

2. Also... another discrepancy that you`ve produced is that there were ``large`` pictures of Jinnah on the ``stage``. Once again I ask you to produce a single meeting of the Muslim League with these large Jinnah portraits ... Again... since Margaret Bourke-White was writing this much later... her memory seems to be playing tricks on her. None of the Muslim League meetings ever had Jinnah`s posters or portraits... nor was it the normal politicking style at the time.

3. There was no ``stage`` as there was no ``public meeting``. It was the meeting of the Central Working Committee .. in a boardroom on a large table.



I think when all these inconsistencies of the account are taken together ... there is incontrovertible proof that:

a- Either it isn`t a first hand account (which the writer doesn`t claim it is)

or

b- the writer is embellishing the account by her own fertile imagination.

This I believe impugns her entire account and lays bare the dishonesty with which she allowed her personal attachment to Gandhi to come in the way of impartiality of journalism.




...

As for winning over people to my camp... I think those who have studied Gandhi`s racist pronouncements know full well what Gandhi was made of... even on this board... Rozaiba is not a family member... but he has very articulately put to words the main objections to Gandhi`s racism in one of the earlier posts.

However Gandhi`s racism is just one of the many issues...

The following is Gandhi`s vision of an independent India- direct from his own ``Niya Jawan`` and collected works of Mahatma Gandhi:

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.

(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system.Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

...


Gandhi could not accept that Brahmins may be equal to Shudras... he could not accept that a son of lowly latrine worker could become a priest and vice versa... he discriminated on the basis of a person`s social status in society and he refused to allow people the liberty to move across castes... and you call this akin to a sexily dressed woman? If anything Gandhi`s nudity shows that showing flesh isn`t always a good thing for those subjected to its sight... The Sergei Bubka example seems more appropriate for your view that Gandhi was an angel...

Is it any wonder that Muslims, given that his views even on his own co-religionists were so regressive and oppressive- even his staunchest followers like Ali Brothers- came to mistrust Gandhi.... and those like Jinnah, who had always been staunch Indian nationalists, were isolated to the point of no return?

#212 by Mantolives

First of all, I know you have access to the said speech because you quoted it a year or so ago ... I know because I went and corrected you on some parts of it. I am sure that you have by now checked the original speech and know full well what I am saying.

Aww…now it is clear that Yasser knows he’ll be caught out if he ever reproduced the speech here, which is why the insinuations and excuses. Even if we accept that I have access to the speech and am lying, why doesn’t he put up the speech here, since this is a golden opportunity for him to close out this discussion forever and victorious at that?

As for Margaret Bourke-White... if indeed you manage to prove that it was a first hand account, then by extrapolation from the contents of speech, it would be reasonable to presume that Margaret Bourke-White was not telling the truth.... however - the poor woman has not claimed any such thing ... to say that she knew that Jinnah wore a Sherwani at the meeting and that is why you are claiming that it was a first hand account ...

Like I said Yasser, you are just arguing for the sake of it. It is her first-hand account of the Partition and the events surrounding it, why would she have to claim that she’s speaking the truth? Do all the authors you quote, Seervai, Wolpert, Embree, Jalal etc. do the same? If no, why expect it from her?

Consider...

More BS. The fact that you are going to such extraordinary lengths to obfuscate the fact that Jinnah did make that statement makes it clear that you’re lost. Considering that I have accepted that I don’t have access to that speech, and the fact that you once boasted that you had a library to die for, how long would it take for you to put up that speech here?

As for winning over people to my camp... I think those who have studied Gandhi`s racist pronouncements know full well what Gandhi was made of... even on this board... Rozaiba is not a family member... but he has very articulately put to words the main objections to Gandhi`s racism in one of the earlier posts.

He/she is your friend isn’t it? Try converting someone who is neither a family member or a friend.

However Gandhi`s racism is just one of the many issues...

Aww Yasser, trying to be clever are we? If you think you can divert this topic, you’re more deluded than I thought.

#226 by Mantolives

Do you really think repeating an untrue statement repetitively makes it the truth?

Which is why your attempts to tarnish Gandhi`s reputation have come to a naught. Gandhi continues to be revered as one of the greatest icons of the 20th century, while Jinnah languishes in obscurity.

#224 by rozaiba

Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country.

Umm sure...and I`m George Bush speaking. But seriously, one can only pity the law firm that employs Yasser. If a man who hasn`t been able to convince anyone except perhaps his own family and friends like you, you can bet the ``top law firm in the country`` isn`t going anywhere but downhill.

#218 by rozaiba

Other than the token reps mentioned, there was not a single supporter of the religious parties. I don`t know, maybe it was because there was no Gandhi to lead the religious freaks on

All the more ironic isn`t it, considering the fact that country founded by the great secular hope DJinnah is mired in extremism, while the country founded by the casteist, racist, bigot Gandhi is despite all the aberrations, secular?

Or is it because despite being religious, Gandhi made every attempt to see that Hindu-Muslim unity was maintained, while DJinnah, despite being ``secular`` inflamed religious passions to carve out Pakistan?

Either way, doesn`t say too much about DJinnah, does it?

bjkumar mian #220,

Do you really think repeating an untrue statement repetitively makes it the truth? That Nazi-Gandhian philosophy has long been discredited... Atleast I have an argument... you unfortunately have no arguments to begin with except a regurgitation of the same old exclusivist Gandhian philosophy .... that believed that caste system was the bedrock of human civilisation and that Brahmin and a Shudra could never be alone...let alone a Hindu and a non-Hindu.

#224 by rozaiba

[Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country. ]

Yaar, what country could that be? I wonder…

[That is why his arguments are difficult to defeat by the Chowk crowd.]

Actually, he simply displays more stamina and repetitiveness - most of his stuff is repeated cut and paste.

By the way, who do you think gets billed for all the time he puts here?

It won’t be the “top law firm”, by any chance?

Could not be!

That would be UNETHICAL, no?

And lawyers and politicos in the land of the pure are the most ethical creatures, of course! Especially when they are combined into one.

Even more than the khakis and the beards!

Re: # 220

Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country.

That is why his arguments are difficult to defeat by the Chowk crowd.

Re: # 127

Montolives

Of course the Bengali issue was resolved finally in 1971 and urdu was banished from Bangladesh or contained in Bihari camps. But what about Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi, etc.. Dont you think the people (80% of them) having these languages as their mother tongues do not feel insulted when these are called folk or regional languages, visa a vis, Urdu, which is spoken by not more than 8% of the paky bhayaas.

#180 Nasah sahib to Naqshi

[In the political junkyard called the jewelry shop now a days -- of that godforsaken subcontinent -- on both sides of the border -- they pick dirty street stones -- wash the crap around them with holy waters -- wrap them in velvet boxes -- and exhibit them as `real` gems -- while throwing the real gems as head-bursting rocks on the impressionable young minds of kids like you.....what a shame!]

What can I say?! I am absolutely speechless - I am so impressed that nothing CAN be said!

I wish I had thought of those words myself!

Thank you VERY, VERY much!

There IS intelligent life in the chowk world, after all!

And my dear Nasah sahib (#180),

Thank you for restoring my faith in the goodness of human nature - which Manto the liar has been trying so hard to decimate!

Sincerely,
BJ Kumar