Saving Pakistan with the Constitution

Manto mian,

(Allow me to amend Rozaiba`s statement- ``country`s top lawfirm dealing in the securitization sector``... )

How big exactly is the securitisation market in Pak. And what do you securitise- Mortgages?Auto Loans?Loan Obligations?Future Flow Generating Assets?

Regards

Re: # 244

wonder -- if Manmohan Singh who had a good meeting with the Generalissimo Musharraf in Habana -- would dare to say the same thing Musharraf said when back to India --

``“The fact that I am roaming/(loafing) around shows how confident and relaxed I am,” -- “This is my longest trip and it shows my confidence.” -- he will be laughed out of office -- or there will be a coup d`etat by the Indian army.....:)

Yaar Harish mian,

Your optimism about sending me to the gallows smacks of naivety. Its not about being ``miffed`` but simply telling you like it is. But the way you love to reassure yourself is most amusing.

``If you hadn`t posted cartoons to compensate for your deficient sense of humor, we`d still be discussing issues, isn`t it?``

Nope you had given up on discussing issues a few days ago, when you failed to answer simple questions about what you were trying to pass off as first hand primary account. As for deficient sense of humor, the high point of your wit is that you know how to spell ass. I am not the one complaining about ``closing out discussions``... so your comeback as always can only be considered lame.

#264 by Mantolives

Let us put it this way. Had this been done in front of a judge in any court of law in your own country, the judge would have thrown you behind bars for unconscionable conduct a long time ago.

Aww Yasser baby, I can see clearly you are miffed. If my conduct entitles me for jail, yours would lead you to the gallows.

But thankfuly- for your sake- this is on chowk.com where you can still claim victory despite having a can of whoopass opened mercilessly on your rear end. So your point about ``closing out a discussion`` if pertains to the issue- please see that we stopped discussing the issue a good 20 or 30 posts ago, when you were made to eat your words on several issues...

Aww Yasser, now that is more because you have been caught tongue tied when asked to answer simple questions (as recently as in #252). If you hadn`t posted cartoons to compensate for your deficient sense of humor, we`d still be discussing issues, isn`t it?

As for whoopass and rearends, thanks for reminding everyone of your family background yet again.

But if it is about ``closing`` your mouth... to use your own favorite analogy... is it ever possible to stop a dog from barking.

Bhai Yasser, if one were to record the highest per-capita posts per day, guess who would come up tops? So keep barking!!!!

Dear Harish mian,

Let us put it this way. Had this been done in front of a judge in any court of law in your own country, the judge would have thrown you behind bars for unconscionable conduct a long time ago. But thankfuly- for your sake- this is on chowk.com where you can still claim victory despite having a can of whoopass opened mercilessly on your rear end. So your point about ``closing out a discussion`` if pertains to the issue- please see that we stopped discussing the issue a good 20 or 30 posts ago, when you were made to eat your words on several issues...

But if it is about ``closing`` your mouth... to use your own favorite analogy... is it ever possible to stop a dog from barking.

#262 by Yasser

Perhaps you think you were appointed judge, jury, executioner, but clearly you don`t much to show for your ``great victory``.

Bhai Yasser, looks like you`re having nightmares! Where did I ever speak about a victory? It is just that for a ``lawyer with the top law firm in the country``, it should have been easy for you no?

Which is why-I feel most sincerely- that the little cartoon I have posted in #253 most accuarely portrays your current dilemma.

Aww Yasser, obviously that cartoon gives you some reason to smile because with all that knowledge of law and history (remember the boast about having a great library?), your inability to have closed out this discussion appears rather pronounced and you do need something to reaffirm your faith in yourself and what better than something you think is derogatory of folks in IT!

Dear Harish pai,

Now what would give you a silly idea that you`ve won any argument- except in your own head. Perhaps you think you were appointed judge, jury, executioner, but clearly you don`t much to show for your ``great victory``.

Hiding behind the excuse that you don`t know much about history or law is merely stating the obvious... this is precisely why you`ve not won anything ... Going by objective standards, your frustration is oozing out of your words... your abuse only compounds it. Which is why-I feel most sincerely- that the little cartoon I have posted in #253 most accuarely portrays your current dilemma.

#260 by Mantolives

I thank you for your concern, wholely misplaced and misguided as it is, but which as usual I still reciprocate because this fertile overactive imagination might cost you professionally even if you choose to continue in your present career.

Aww Yasser, please do not worry about my career, as much I hate to talk about it to strangers, I`m doing OK, thank you very much. It is yours you should be worrying about. People who dabble in too many things usually haven`t been able to amount to much in life, and so the search for the perfect career.

In any case, coming to the brasstacks. If you haven`t been able to win an argument over someone who has absolutely no grounding in either law or history (something you claim you have), it speaks rather poorly about your standing in your chosen profession, notwithstanding the tall claims of being employed with the ``top law firm in Pakistan``.

Dear Harish pai,

Should I take this as another declaration of victory ala Saddam Hussain syndrome? I thank you for your concern, wholely misplaced and misguided as it is, but which as usual I still reciprocate because this fertile overactive imagination might cost you professionally even if you choose to continue in your present career. As for my perception- my compliment to you should be taken in its original spirit and savoured. Just say thank you next time.

#258 by Mantolives

I also most humbly submit that you are probably the most good looking of the Gurumoorthies...

No wonder you`re perpetually on the lookout for alternative careers!! Writer, economist, SAP coordinator, journalist, asspiring lawyer, God knows what else!! If this is how you argue cases, based entirely on your perceptions and guesswork, God save your clients!!

A friendly advice: you should probably try your hand at something else. If you cannot argue with a lowly call center worker, one can imagine your plight when you argue with seasoned lawyers.

Dear Harish pai,

The cartoon has had its desired effect alright. On 256, though, I most respectfuly and humbly submit that I am an ugly Pakistani Ahmadi... perhaps the ugliest of the lot. I also most humbly submit that you are probably the most good looking of the Gurumoorthies... and amongst the best looking Indians out there.

Now that should give enough of an incentive for readers to go look at your profile picture.

#255 by Yasser

Looks like Rozaiba`s harmless comment about my place of work as had a rather nasty impact on you. Allow me to amend Rozaiba`s statement- ``country`s top lawfirm dealing in the securitization sector``... maybe that will appease your pain, hurt and frustration.

Aww Yasser baby, why do you have to try so hard? It makes me feel something isn`t quite right and the cartoons are having the desired effect.

#246 by majumdar

Pakistan does not have ugly brahmins, so what makes it backward, superstiteous and with even less respect among league of nations,.. ugly Ahemdis???

Which ugly Ahmadi are you talking about, Majumdar bhai? AFAIK, there`s only one ugly Ahmadi with his pic on the profile.

Dear Harish pai,

Looks like Rozaiba`s harmless comment about my place of work as had a rather nasty impact on you. Allow me to amend Rozaiba`s statement- ``country`s top lawfirm dealing in the securitization sector``... maybe that will appease your pain, hurt and frustration.

#253 by Yasser

Your frustration and name-calling adequately proves who won and who lost...

No Yasser baby, that you have to resort to cartoons instead of some coherent replies proves that you`ve lost. Lawyer at Pakistan`s ``top law firm``? Sure.

Meanwhile, here`s Yasser of the ``top law firm in the country`` fame at his argumentative best:

Dear Harish mian,

Your frustration and name-calling adequately proves who won and who lost...

A day in Harish hyd`s life

#250 by Bucktoothed Barrister

Why must you constantly make a fool out of yourself every time?

That honor dear Yasser is entirely yours. Being a lawyer with the ``top law firm in Pakistan`` (as your sidekick put it), it should have been rather easy for you to win this argument about who was responsible for the DAD violence, but after almost 600 posts (including 400-odd on your own board), you`re still coming up with pathetic ones like:

1. Sardar Patel gloated over Muslim deaths that`s why Congress was responsible
2. More Muslims died, so the Congress must have been responsible, and that too at Gandhi`s orders.

#250 by Mantolives

You`ve put up a cartoon about a man who says he ``sues`` people for a living but is not a lawyer. The joke is presumably on the litigious nature of society.

Aww...Yasser baby, quite a nice try, but still comes a cropper. Come up with something better and maybe I`ll be convinced at least on this one.

Yaar Harish,

You`ve put up a cartoon about a man who says he ``sues`` people for a living but is not a lawyer. The joke is presumably on the litigious nature of society.

That you did put it up shows that a- either you didn`t get it b- you didn`t bother to see what you were posting (which is more likely as your track record shows). Why must you constantly make a fool out of yourself every time?

#248 by Mantolives

Clearly your accent reduction classes are quite lacking when it comes to understanding humor or the meaning of the joke...

Sure..spin your way out this one.

Yaar Harish mian,

Clearly your accent reduction classes are quite lacking when it comes to understanding humor or the meaning of the joke...

A miserable day in the miserable life of Barrister Bucktooth.

Nasah,

(If Musharraf is relaxed Pakistan is relaxed -- If Musharraf looks confident Pakistan looks confident -- If Musharraf is worried Pakistan should be worried -- If Mushrraf is laughing Pakistan should be laughing -- if Musrraf is crying Pakistan is crying -- if Musharraf no problem Pakistan no problem -- )

Not so long ago, people were saying ``India is Indira, Indira is India`` but I guess both our nations are strong enough to get past the death of strongmen/women.

Nature_lover,

(Due to ugly Brahamins, India is backward, superstiteous and without any respect among league of nations,.. )

Pakistan does not have ugly brahmins, so what makes it backward, superstiteous and with even less respect among league of nations,.. ugly Ahemdis???

Regards

#244 Nsah

Yaar, tu bechare Mushy per itnaa khafaa kyun ho raha hai?!!

Is there anybody better than him at this time in the country?!

He wins hands down compared to others.

He wins by default.

And one can always count on him for a good laugh!

Like when he dons that mantle of the “front-line ally against terrorism”!

Better to have a funny dictator than the dour kind, no?!!

Sayings of Chairman Maoshurraf on how stable Pakistan is constituionally and politically.

``To a question about the domestic political situation, President Musharraf said he was confident that there would be no instability in Pakistan.

“The fact that I am roaming/(loafing) around shows how confident and relaxed I am,” he said, adding that there was no problem in Pakistan. “This is my longest trip and it shows my confidence.” (DailyTimes)

If Musharraf is relaxed Pakistan is relaxed -- If Musharraf looks confident Pakistan looks confident -- If Musharraf is worried Pakistan should be worried -- If Mushrraf is laughing Pakistan should be laughing -- if Musrraf is crying Pakistan is crying -- if Musharraf no problem Pakistan no problem --

does that mean when Mushrraf is no more Pakistan is no more?......eh......there may be ``no problem in Pakistan`` right now -- but there may be definitely a `problem` with this line of argument -- in future.

may be Pakistanis should never ever let go Musharraf if they want to exist as a country!

In the past people were worried about the separation of State and Religion in Pakistan -- now they have to worry about -- Separation of State and the state of General Musharraf....:)

Manto,

(A bit late) congratulations on the new arrival (and on comfortably winning what appears to have been a neck-in-neck race with Salim Chauhan!)

Please convey my best wishes to your wife for a speedy recuperation.

(Now that she has to take care of the three of you!)

ok.

Re: # 238

Ha Ha........Manto,

The guy in picture looks more like You, Manto.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha............................

Re: # 239

Perhaps..

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Infact even this law of physics is quite inadequate for what I feel for those liars and distorters of history- you know which ones...

Re: # 232

Yasser:

Gandhi is not that bad. I know you are ardent enemy of Gandhi.

Anil

A Day in the Life of VRV (Also applicable to BJKumar and Harish Gurumoorthy mian)

VRV,

Abusing me or calling me names isn`t going to change plain facts of history.


BJ,

Yaar- you`ve till date been unable to disprove any of what I say... you keep regurgitating your biases. So why do you call my stuff ``offtrack`` when you know what I say is the truth and nothing but.

Harish Hindustani, I am disappointed at your use of the word ``b!tch`` for your human sister Mukhtaran Mai.

She is a living proof and symbol of truth, justice and human will power.

I did some research about her, she belongs to Gujjar tribe of pakistan and the people who raped her,...they claim to be decendents of Israel ( jacob) who was son of Isaac and Isaac was son of Sara and Abraham.

Who knows how many bloods are mixed in rapists but blood of Adam stays dominent in every case.

After your remarks and calling her low caste I did a little research on Gujjars and I found that Gujjars claim to be the oldest tribe of India and central Asia, some historians wrote them as decendents of Aryans like ``kushans``, ``khastrias`` , ``kapoors`` etc etc.

Hasan Cauhan who wrote the book `` history of Gujjars`` call himself as a Gujjar and decendant of the Raja Pirtvi Raj Cauhan.

Brahamins are the most useless and idiot people on this earth who grabbed land of natives of India and declared those beautiful people as untouchables and low class.

If this mind set will prevail then India and Pakistan will never change and never prosper...

Due to ugly Brahamins, India is backward, superstiteous and without any respect among league of nations,..

It is due to the ``pakhunds``, caste system, fictional stories and mythologies created by useless and talktive ugly looking ``Brahmins``, which they created to establish their hegemony.

Thanks God we don`t have that useless junk of fake pride in Pakistan ,..but we do have their strong influence on our society though....and Science will clean it up.

Re: # 234

Ama yaar Beejay,

Manto is Liar-e-Azam, Moron-e-Azam, Dyslexic-e-Azam and Dementic-e-Azam.

He life is confused. He`s not an equal citizen in the country he loves. He hates a group of people in India for imagined reasons or no reason. He himself faces this problem of hate but is blissfully ignorant of the (Qadiani) hate in Pakistan. Surprisingly he makes us believe that everything is hunky-dory. He lives in a pipe dream that Jinnah`s Pakistan is going to come soon though he`s light years away from Jinnah`s Pakistan. Lets not wake him up. Let him live with his porkies, big and small.

Even his best-half spent her time cooking anti-India posts and digging-up alternative news, whilst carrying their unborn baby. The offspings wud carry the hate of their parents. Nevertheless, courtesy demands that we shud congratule the arrival of their newborn baby! Congrats Manto!

#233
Ama VRV,

Normally, I would have a feast if you attacked Manto’s positions – most of which are way off the track. But let us leave Manto the person (from all accounts a good-hearted man with a loving heart (not to mention perhaps also the family cook!)) out of this.

Just imagine what ELSE is out there:

1) the khaki Mushy – who was ready with the dagger of Kargil when the Nawab was planning peace,

2) the Mullahs – whose late night dreams consist of establishing “Dar ul Islam” in the rest of the world, starting with India, of course when they are not too busy trying to figure out the most efficient techniques for cutting clitoris.

3) the “run-of-the-mill” Pakistani politicians who are competing with each other on a daily basis on how best to beat up on that “dushman” – that Hindu, which all of India has come to signify to that lot!

So, Manto is not ``too bad`` by comparison. His fault is mostly that little bit of dishonesty. The proverbial one-eyed man in the vast teeming population of blind men.

And like I told “deep pockets” Kapuria, the chances of poor Manto making any headway in that quagmire of Pakistani politics are only a bit less than his making it to the moon in one leap – i.e., one needs a substantial dosage of bhang to accomplish that feat – at least in ones’s own mind!

So let us not beat up on Manto the person. In fact, I would even like to give some advice to Mrs. Manto – which can be useful, and I would urge her to consider it seriously.

Dear Mrs. Manto, as seen in this picture, you are holding that laptop computer mouse with two hands! Ma’m, you don’t need to do that.

One hand is sufficient. So, hold it with one hand, please.

You can then put the other hand to some other truly useful activity – like boxing Manto’s ears!

Manto is a clean-chin fundoo like our Jinnah.

Manto the liar, you are NOT worthy of your education. You are a disgrace to your parents.

B4 we go to school and learn the subjects, parents instil in us some basic human values like for eg. Dont Steal, Dont Lie.... etc...etc....

It seems that your parents didnt teach these things to you or you are a congenital liar i.e. born to lie.

Why dont u jump into Ravi river and commit suicide? Your life has no value, u are worse than ur iconic Pimp, Jinnah.

Jinnah knows no religion, never prayed but ate a lot of Ham and Pork sausages whilst ogling for skimpily dressed Parsi girls whilst pretending to be socialising with some Parsi aristocrats.

He hardly socialised with other Muslims (always referred them as those dhadiwallahs) in his lifetime except when he needed some blind followers for achieving his dream of the getting power, no matter if it meant to butchering a million people.

His successors did exceed Jinnah by massacring THREE million Bengalis.

This good for nothing liar.......lawyer is trying to resurrect the sagged image of this worthless Vampire. He was eaten to death by Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, a revenge taken on behalf of the voiceless innocents who were killed for his desire for chair.

I guess he`s not enjoying his virgins in Heaven but rotting in Hell.

``Gandhi continues to be revered as one of the greatest icons of the 20th century``

And Earth`s flatness was once an article of faith and modern science for people... it doesn`t prove anything... except temporary hysteria...

History will judge Gandhi for what he really was: A racist casteist hindu misogynist bigot

Rozaiba,

You evil evil man. How dare you deliver a kick in Harish mian`s groin by suggesting that I work for the top law firm in Pakistan (after all thats just Martindale and Hubble`s analysis- it can`t be true unless Bourke-White the photographer said it.) But on a serious note... you don`t need to make call centre workers feel bad... for their unfortunate place in life.



Harish mian,

Don`t be clever by half. Now you are just going in circles... how many times must you proved a liar?

The exact words were:

<What we have done to-day is the most historic act in our history. Never have we in the whole history of the League done anything except by constitutional methods. But now we are forced into this position. Today we bid good-bye to constitutional methods. Untill now we have negotiated with the Congress and the British who have held a gun to our head. Today We have forged a pistol and we are prepared to use it. If you seek peace, we do not want War. But if you want War, we will accept it unhesitatingly.

Now I know... you`ll try go on a tangent from the said speech- even though ... evidence in Calcutta clearly proves that it was the Congress Party behind the violence... that independent investigations ruled out Muslim League culpability... and many more Muslims died than Hindus...

But more than that... this proves that either Margaret Bourk-White is a liar... or you are a liar... because as is... the Muslim League meeting was a council meeting in a boardroom.

You very cleverly skipped over the questions I asked you(which you denounced as BS- even though it proves that the scene described in your source was entirely fictional)- so I reproduce the post in toto:

---

#212 by Mantolives on September 14, 2006 3:49am PT
Dear Harish pai,

First of all, I know you have access to the said speech because you quoted it a year or so ago ... I know because I went and corrected you on some parts of it. I am sure that you have by now checked the original speech and know full well what I am saying.

As for Margaret Bourke-White... if indeed you manage to prove that it was a first hand account, then by extrapolation from the contents of speech, it would be reasonable to presume that Margaret Bourke-White was not telling the truth.... however - the poor woman has not claimed any such thing ... to say that she knew that Jinnah wore a Sherwani at the meeting and that is why you are claiming that it was a first hand account ... is worst than saying that she must be telling the truth because Simon and Schuster published her book (in that case- you might as well take Musharraf to be the gospel because they paid him a million dollars already and the rest will follow- but I won`t)...

Consider...

1. It is highly unlikely ``Fezzes`` were thrown up into the sky... because for one thing Fez was replaced by the Karakul cap and hats... if you see the pictures Muslim League meetings from 1940s onwards... you will hardly find any fez wearing leaguer... clearly like a good writer, Bourke-White was adding twist and masala to what had been narrated to her... her story sounds more like a high school graduation in the Mid West... then a meeting of the League... which was ... as is not a ``jalsa`` but a meeting of the working committee in a board room under a roof. ...

2. Also... another discrepancy that you`ve produced is that there were ``large`` pictures of Jinnah on the ``stage``. Once again I ask you to produce a single meeting of the Muslim League with these large Jinnah portraits ... Again... since Margaret Bourke-White was writing this much later... her memory seems to be playing tricks on her. None of the Muslim League meetings ever had Jinnah`s posters or portraits... nor was it the normal politicking style at the time.

3. There was no ``stage`` as there was no ``public meeting``. It was the meeting of the Central Working Committee .. in a boardroom on a large table.



I think when all these inconsistencies of the account are taken together ... there is incontrovertible proof that:

a- Either it isn`t a first hand account (which the writer doesn`t claim it is)

or

b- the writer is embellishing the account by her own fertile imagination.

This I believe impugns her entire account and lays bare the dishonesty with which she allowed her personal attachment to Gandhi to come in the way of impartiality of journalism.




...

As for winning over people to my camp... I think those who have studied Gandhi`s racist pronouncements know full well what Gandhi was made of... even on this board... Rozaiba is not a family member... but he has very articulately put to words the main objections to Gandhi`s racism in one of the earlier posts.

However Gandhi`s racism is just one of the many issues...

The following is Gandhi`s vision of an independent India- direct from his own ``Niya Jawan`` and collected works of Mahatma Gandhi:

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.

(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system.Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

...


Gandhi could not accept that Brahmins may be equal to Shudras... he could not accept that a son of lowly latrine worker could become a priest and vice versa... he discriminated on the basis of a person`s social status in society and he refused to allow people the liberty to move across castes... and you call this akin to a sexily dressed woman? If anything Gandhi`s nudity shows that showing flesh isn`t always a good thing for those subjected to its sight... The Sergei Bubka example seems more appropriate for your view that Gandhi was an angel...

Is it any wonder that Muslims, given that his views even on his own co-religionists were so regressive and oppressive- even his staunchest followers like Ali Brothers- came to mistrust Gandhi.... and those like Jinnah, who had always been staunch Indian nationalists, were isolated to the point of no return?

#212 by Mantolives

First of all, I know you have access to the said speech because you quoted it a year or so ago ... I know because I went and corrected you on some parts of it. I am sure that you have by now checked the original speech and know full well what I am saying.

Aww…now it is clear that Yasser knows he’ll be caught out if he ever reproduced the speech here, which is why the insinuations and excuses. Even if we accept that I have access to the speech and am lying, why doesn’t he put up the speech here, since this is a golden opportunity for him to close out this discussion forever and victorious at that?

As for Margaret Bourke-White... if indeed you manage to prove that it was a first hand account, then by extrapolation from the contents of speech, it would be reasonable to presume that Margaret Bourke-White was not telling the truth.... however - the poor woman has not claimed any such thing ... to say that she knew that Jinnah wore a Sherwani at the meeting and that is why you are claiming that it was a first hand account ...

Like I said Yasser, you are just arguing for the sake of it. It is her first-hand account of the Partition and the events surrounding it, why would she have to claim that she’s speaking the truth? Do all the authors you quote, Seervai, Wolpert, Embree, Jalal etc. do the same? If no, why expect it from her?

Consider...

More BS. The fact that you are going to such extraordinary lengths to obfuscate the fact that Jinnah did make that statement makes it clear that you’re lost. Considering that I have accepted that I don’t have access to that speech, and the fact that you once boasted that you had a library to die for, how long would it take for you to put up that speech here?

As for winning over people to my camp... I think those who have studied Gandhi`s racist pronouncements know full well what Gandhi was made of... even on this board... Rozaiba is not a family member... but he has very articulately put to words the main objections to Gandhi`s racism in one of the earlier posts.

He/she is your friend isn’t it? Try converting someone who is neither a family member or a friend.

However Gandhi`s racism is just one of the many issues...

Aww Yasser, trying to be clever are we? If you think you can divert this topic, you’re more deluded than I thought.

#226 by Mantolives

Do you really think repeating an untrue statement repetitively makes it the truth?

Which is why your attempts to tarnish Gandhi`s reputation have come to a naught. Gandhi continues to be revered as one of the greatest icons of the 20th century, while Jinnah languishes in obscurity.

#224 by rozaiba

Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country.

Umm sure...and I`m George Bush speaking. But seriously, one can only pity the law firm that employs Yasser. If a man who hasn`t been able to convince anyone except perhaps his own family and friends like you, you can bet the ``top law firm in the country`` isn`t going anywhere but downhill.

#218 by rozaiba

Other than the token reps mentioned, there was not a single supporter of the religious parties. I don`t know, maybe it was because there was no Gandhi to lead the religious freaks on

All the more ironic isn`t it, considering the fact that country founded by the great secular hope DJinnah is mired in extremism, while the country founded by the casteist, racist, bigot Gandhi is despite all the aberrations, secular?

Or is it because despite being religious, Gandhi made every attempt to see that Hindu-Muslim unity was maintained, while DJinnah, despite being ``secular`` inflamed religious passions to carve out Pakistan?

Either way, doesn`t say too much about DJinnah, does it?

bjkumar mian #220,

Do you really think repeating an untrue statement repetitively makes it the truth? That Nazi-Gandhian philosophy has long been discredited... Atleast I have an argument... you unfortunately have no arguments to begin with except a regurgitation of the same old exclusivist Gandhian philosophy .... that believed that caste system was the bedrock of human civilisation and that Brahmin and a Shudra could never be alone...let alone a Hindu and a non-Hindu.

#224 by rozaiba

[Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country. ]

Yaar, what country could that be? I wonder…

[That is why his arguments are difficult to defeat by the Chowk crowd.]

Actually, he simply displays more stamina and repetitiveness - most of his stuff is repeated cut and paste.

By the way, who do you think gets billed for all the time he puts here?

It won’t be the “top law firm”, by any chance?

Could not be!

That would be UNETHICAL, no?

And lawyers and politicos in the land of the pure are the most ethical creatures, of course! Especially when they are combined into one.

Even more than the khakis and the beards!

Re: # 220

Actually Manto works for the top law firm in the country.

That is why his arguments are difficult to defeat by the Chowk crowd.

Re: # 127

Montolives

Of course the Bengali issue was resolved finally in 1971 and urdu was banished from Bangladesh or contained in Bihari camps. But what about Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi, etc.. Dont you think the people (80% of them) having these languages as their mother tongues do not feel insulted when these are called folk or regional languages, visa a vis, Urdu, which is spoken by not more than 8% of the paky bhayaas.

#180 Nasah sahib to Naqshi

[In the political junkyard called the jewelry shop now a days -- of that godforsaken subcontinent -- on both sides of the border -- they pick dirty street stones -- wash the crap around them with holy waters -- wrap them in velvet boxes -- and exhibit them as `real` gems -- while throwing the real gems as head-bursting rocks on the impressionable young minds of kids like you.....what a shame!]

What can I say?! I am absolutely speechless - I am so impressed that nothing CAN be said!

I wish I had thought of those words myself!

Thank you VERY, VERY much!

There IS intelligent life in the chowk world, after all!

And my dear Nasah sahib (#180),

Thank you for restoring my faith in the goodness of human nature - which Manto the liar has been trying so hard to decimate!

Sincerely,
BJ Kumar

Ama Manto, you KNOW you are a fake AND a liar! You have been exposed countless times!

Let me repeat for YOUR benefit - one more time:

Dear Nasah sahib (in #180),

[Gandhi was a great soul who with his sureme sacrifice that his very life -- saved million Muslim lives and protected their dignity and civil rights at the lowest ebb of the Muslim existence in divided India. ]

Manto, read it carefully. Feel it. Let the significance sink in!

Nasah sahib, I can not repeat this often enough!!

You are a good man who is not afraid to tell it like it is!

Unlike this unemployed lawyer Yasser!

(Note: ``Unemployed`` is not to be considered a derogatory term - only a state of being!)

Re: # 218

Well said!

Chowk is probably the only place where one gets branded a ``serial liar`` for telling the truth and nothing but the truth.

This poor Harish hyd (hereinafter the gandhist) really is in trouble these days... given that many of the lies and myths he believed in all his life as a true Gandhist follower of that racist, casteist, misogynist, dishonest, hindu fanatic liar called Gandhi! ... The Gandhist is thus hardpressed to clutch at any and every straw to prove facts as lies and those telling the truth as liars, even if it means quoting anonymous and highly unreliable sources.

Re: # 215

I think you are too impressed by modern-day Gandhi-ists who cannot stand it when religion and politics are not shown as the poisonous mix that they are.

Other than the token reps mentioned, there was not a single supporter of the religious parties. I don`t know, maybe it was because there was no Gandhi to lead the religious freaks on.

BJkumar,

The significance of Nasah`s post is that it is wholely untrue... and nothing else.

Calling me names, pipsqeak, liar etc etc, might temporarily be effective, but at the end of the day ... it comes down to this- what I say is true... you know it, Harish hyd knows and Atif2 knows it.

Ah poor Harish mian,

Clutching on straws to get out of the hole.

It is a well known fact that MMA was not present at the 10th September ARD rally... Atif2 feels they were because two of their speakers spoke at the meeting. Even though Rozaiba and others who were there at the meeting... testified that the MMA was not present, Atif2 keeps calling me a liar. When asked for evidence... Atif2 failed to produce a single picture of an MMA flag at the rally.

Liars, crooks, cranks... are not the sole possession of just one country. Like you - Atif2 is an old truth offender.

Yaar Yasser, I will respond to your post later, but this one caught my attention on Dr. Sohail`s board. When your compatriots have such high opinion of you, please excuse us if we think of you as a congenital liar. Recall a post by another interactor hamzaad. You have quite a colorful reputation by any standards.

#34 by atif2

M-Lives is a serial liar and has recently been convicted in the court of chowk opinion.

In addition to his rampant lying, he also has developed some acute personality disorders.

And Nasah sahib,

Feel free to beat up on GWB as much as you like.

I won`t even squeak.

Because I understand that you are a good man - a courageous man!

Unlike this pipsqueak Manto!

#various Manto

Ama foolish yaar, read Nasah sahib’s #180.

[Gandhi was a great soul who with his sureme sacrifice that his very life -- saved million Muslim lives and protected their dignity and civil rights at the lowest ebb of the Muslim existence in divided India. ]

Manto, read it carefully. Feel it. Let the significance sink in!

Nasah sahib, I can not repeat this often enough!!

You are a good man who is not afraid to tell it like it is!

Unlike this unemployed lawyer Yasser!

Dear Harish pai,

First of all, I know you have access to the said speech because you quoted it a year or so ago ... I know because I went and corrected you on some parts of it. I am sure that you have by now checked the original speech and know full well what I am saying.

As for Margaret Bourke-White... if indeed you manage to prove that it was a first hand account, then by extrapolation from the contents of speech, it would be reasonable to presume that Margaret Bourke-White was not telling the truth.... however - the poor woman has not claimed any such thing ... to say that she knew that Jinnah wore a Sherwani at the meeting and that is why you are claiming that it was a first hand account ... is worst than saying that she must be telling the truth because Simon and Schuster published her book (in that case- you might as well take Musharraf to be the gospel because they paid him a million dollars already and the rest will follow- but I won`t)...

Consider...

1. It is highly unlikely ``Fezzes`` were thrown up into the sky... because for one thing Fez was replaced by the Karakul cap and hats... if you see the pictures Muslim League meetings from 1940s onwards... you will hardly find any fez wearing leaguer... clearly like a good writer, Bourke-White was adding twist and masala to what had been narrated to her... her story sounds more like a high school graduation in the Mid West... then a meeting of the League... which was ... as is not a ``jalsa`` but a meeting of the working committee in a board room under a roof. ...

2. Also... another discrepancy that you`ve produced is that there were ``large`` pictures of Jinnah on the ``stage``. Once again I ask you to produce a single meeting of the Muslim League with these large Jinnah portraits ... Again... since Margaret Bourke-White was writing this much later... her memory seems to be playing tricks on her. None of the Muslim League meetings ever had Jinnah`s posters or portraits... nor was it the normal politicking style at the time.

3. There was no ``stage`` as there was no ``public meeting``. It was the meeting of the Central Working Committee .. in a boardroom on a large table.



I think when all these inconsistencies of the account are taken together ... there is incontrovertible proof that:

a- Either it isn`t a first hand account (which the writer doesn`t claim it is)

or

b- the writer is embellishing the account by her own fertile imagination.

This I believe impugns her entire account and lays bare the dishonesty with which she allowed her personal attachment to Gandhi to come in the way of impartiality of journalism.


...

As for winning over people to my camp... I think those who have studied Gandhi`s racist pronouncements know full well what Gandhi was made of... even on this board... Rozaiba is not a family member... but he has very articulately put to words the main objections to Gandhi`s racism in one of the earlier posts.

However Gandhi`s racism is just one of the many issues...

The following is Gandhi`s vision of an independent India- direct from his own ``Niya Jawan`` and collected works of Mahatma Gandhi:

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.

(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system.Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

...


Gandhi could not accept that Brahmins may be equal to Shudras... he could not accept that a son of lowly latrine worker could become a priest and vice versa... he discriminated on the basis of a person`s social status in society and he refused to allow people the liberty to move across castes... and you call this akin to a sexily dressed woman? If anything Gandhi`s nudity shows that showing flesh isn`t always a good thing for those subjected to its sight... The Sergei Bubka example seems more appropriate for your view that Gandhi was an angel...

Is it any wonder that Muslims, given that his views even on his own co-religionists were so regressive and oppressive- even his staunchest followers like Ali Brothers- came to mistrust Gandhi.... and those like Jinnah, who had always been staunch Indian nationalists, were isolated to the point of no return?

#210 by Mantolives

Look for Jinnah`s July 29th 1946 speech and corroborate.. the reason you won`t, is because I suspect you already have and found this statement to be false. British historian Patrick French discussed this ``statement`` in detail in his book ``Liberty or Death`` and concluded that the statement was completely unsourced.

Dear Yasser, once again you`re trying to act smart. Like a one act clown, you have been beating this drum of Gandhi`s racism for too long, but looks like you haven`t won anyone over to your camp, except perhaps your own family. Looks like you don`t have anything else against him. Gandhi`s great deeds far overweigh anything that he might have done earlier in his life, which is why no one talks about it, except sickos obsessed with his sex life.

That aside, if I had access to Jinnah`s speeh, why would I rely on Margaret Bourke-White`s book? But since you claimed you had a great library, why don`t you do it for us? Let`s see if you have the balls to do that.

Your insistence that this is a first hand account can at best prove that Margaret Bourke-White was being dishonest... but as I see it, Ms. Bourke-White has not claimed that it is a first hand account...

Since she claims to have been present the previous day at Jinnah`s house, and the next day`s account was in continuation of that, it is quite clear that she was there as well. If she hadn`t been there, do you think she could describe how he was dressed and how the stage was decorated with his portraits, and how Leaguers jumped and tossed their caps in their air? Common sense, my dear Yasser!

And while... this metaphorical statement is probably false and without basis (Even if it were true- it just goes to show how antagonising an influence that racist casteist Mahatma Gandhi was so as to drive even the staunchest Indian nationalist Muslim into the hands of separatists)...

Aww...this is like that rapist who claimed that the girl was provocatively dressed and that he was tempted into the act. With your pathetic excuses, you`re climbing new heights in idiocy with every post. If stupidity were a sport, you`d be its Sergei Bubka.

Dear Harish pai..

There is nothing in that paragraph that suggests that it is a first hand account. Please look at it again. Also ... there is an easier test for it. Look for Jinnah`s July 29th 1946 speech and corroborate.. the reason you won`t, is because I suspect you already have and found this statement to be false. British historian Patrick French discussed this ``statement`` in detail in his book ``Liberty or Death`` and concluded that the statement was completely unsourced. Your insistence that this is a first hand account can at best prove that Margaret Bourke-White was being dishonest... but as I see it, Ms. Bourke-White has not claimed that it is a first hand account...

And while... this metaphorical statement is probably false and without basis (Even if it were true- it just goes to show how antagonising an influence that racist casteist Mahatma Gandhi was so as to drive even the staunchest Indian nationalist Muslim into the hands of separatists) we know for a fact what Gandhi said is there in Gandhi`s collected works:


On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could…But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.

Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149

On What Gandhi wanted (9)

Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

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On What Gandhi wanted (8)

The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

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On What Gandhi wanted (7)

More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji…

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

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On What Gandhi wanted (6)

More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji…

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

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On What Gandhi wanted (5)

It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children

Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (12)

What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330

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On What Gandhi wanted (11)

Ah… and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad…

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89

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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131

....

As for your accusations against Jinnah:

On Direct Action Day, you`ve run away from the debate on my board, where I adequately burst your bubble when it was proved that Congress had planned the Calcutta Killings...

On Partition and the violence that resulted... any historian will tell you that it was specific act of partitioning federating units .... Punjab and Bengal ... which was responsible for the violence and that was a Congress demand not Jinnah`s...

On the issue of dividing mass of humanity... In response to one indivisible defacto Hindu dominated India, Jinnah asked for Muslim majority provinces- which included large Non-muslim minorities- to be grouped together in a federation.... it was the Congress that divided the mass of humanity into Muslim and Hindu by partitioning existing federating units... had it been as simple as you put it... Jinnah would not choose a Hindu to represent Muslims at the interim government.

#204 by Mantolives

All I am saying is that the speech she is erroneously referring to is there in full text and easily available... as it is the famous ``we bid good bye to constitutional means`` speech and to the best of my knowledge it doesn`t have any reference to India being destroyed... Nor has Margaret Bourke-White said that it was a first hand account... she was present a day earlier at Jinnah`s house... and not at the event.

So Yasser decides where Margaret Bourke-White was almost 60 years ago!!! LOL! If you think the following paragraph is not a first hand account, then you are a disgrace to the journalistic profession, of which you claim you are a part.

For other Chowkies, you can read this and reach your own conclusions. If at all Yasser feels Jinnah didn`t say that, why doesn`t he put up that speech? After all, in addition to various other things, he claims to be an expert on South Asian history as well. So come on genius, we`re waiting for it.

``Next day the Quaid-i-Azam changed out of his double-breasted suit and put on Muslim dress and fez for the Muslim masses. Standing on a platform liberally decorated with enlargements of his portrait, he announced that the sixteenth of August, two and a half weeks hence, would be ``Direct Action Day.`` His vituperation against the Congress was acidly explicit. ``If you want peace, we do not want war,`` he declared. ``If you want war we accept your offer unhesitatingly. We will either have a divided India or a destroyed India.`` And the Muslim Leaguers jumped up on their seats and tossed their fezzes in the air.``

In any event... I still don`t understand what this has to do with Gandhi`s sterling credentials as a racist, casteist, hindu exclusivist, misogynist bigot unless you feel that since Jinnah allegedly said something... it is a blanket ratification for all of Gandhi`s exclusivist, racist, casteist, bigoted, Hindu fundamentalist views that antagonised Jinnah in the first place?

The point dear Yasser is that compared the crimes Jinnah committed, including the DAD violence, the Partition, and the division of a whole mass of humanity into Hindu and Muslims, Gandhi appears like an angel. It is like letting off a murderer for a pickpocket. Gandhi`s actions may have hurt Harijans, but they didn`t kill them, unlike Jinnah`s actions which caused death and destruction to Hindus and Muslims alike. Deservedly, Jinnah continues to languish in obscurity, having been consigned to the dustbin of history, while Gandhi is remembered and revered across the world.

BTW, this article is about Pakistan and its constitution. If Gandhi can be brought in, why not Jinnah?

Dear BJkumar,

The problem is that deep down in your dark black Hindu exclusivist Gandhian heart you know very well... that it is I who has the courage to tell it like it is in the face of abuse, insults and jeers.... while Nasah is merely being economical with the truth...

Gandhi was the original sin of the subcontinent... the most miserable day in the 5000-year history of the subcontinent was when Gandhi trickled down his mother`s leg.. the racist, casteist, bigot Gandhi, the misogynist Hindu fundamentalist... and Gandhi was also the spiritual great Grandfather of the taliban ... not only because Gandhian ideology mirrors Talibanism in full measure for its hatred for the west and modernity.... but because it was Gandhi who unleashed the Mullahs in form of the Khilafat movement.... Moplah terrorism owed everything to Gandhi... Maulana Fazlurrahman- the daddy of terror in Pakistan- acknowledges Gandhi as his leader and his father`s leader... while denouncing Jinnah...

Subcontinent`s first RELIGIOUS TERRORIST was GANDHI- only in TERRORISM could Gandhi become inclusive- thus a conservative Hindu fanatic... he was nonetheless an Islamic terrorist, Hindu Terrorist and Christian terrorist equally...


And as if terrorism was not enough- Gandhi sought to subjugate people with the caste system... here are his views on Caste:

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.

(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

...


To Gandhi it was unthinkable that a Brahmin could be equal to Shudra... let alone a lowly Muslim to a Hindu.. so the Subcontinent`s first taliban the MAHATMA GANDHI said:

``I am a Hindu first- therefore a true Indian``

#206 VRV

[I think that Yasser & family suffers from Gandhi and India phobia]

In my opinion, they are just jealous!

After all, just look at it from his POV. Here was this ``high class`` lawyer Jinnah - representing everything our dear Manto aspires for - the Jinnah who started out so grandly (``ambassador of unity`` and all that Jazz!) - yet ended up in pits - not to mention his whole population that ended up right there, with him!

And then Manto compares with Gandhi - a lawyer whose lawyerly accomplishments do not seem to rate anywhere near, who apparently held a lot of old-fashioned biases from the society to which he belonged - biases he grew out of as he identified more and more with the common man.

The brown-skinned underdog bested the ``great white hope``!

The Jinnah went to the dogs while Gandhi soared.

The world knows Gandhi, the word itself has come to mean what appeals to the world`s heart!

And the world says: ``Jinnah who?``

And if anybody mentions Pakistan - the world immediately makes the association.

Not with Jinnah of course, but with terrorism!

Which is poetic justice - for the country created by the subcontinent`s first Islamic terrorist!

It is enough to drive certain Pakistani lawyers to the looney lot!

BJ,

I think that Yasser & family suffers from Gandhi and India phobia. Both dig alternative histories and articles on Gandhi and India for promotion & publication of their world-views.

Frankenstein`s (Jinnah`s) moster (Pakistan) is what I wud like to promote as my alternative world-view to counter to their missionary zeal for alternative world-views.

You need a diamond to cut another diamond!

Btw, I admire Harish`s tenacity though he`s not a student of history.

#180 Nasah

[Gandhi was a great soul who with his sureme sacrifice that his very life -- saved million Muslim lives and protected their dignity and civil rights at the lowest ebb of the Muslim existence in divided India. ]

Nasah sahib,

You are a good man who is not afraid to tell it like it is!

Unlike Yasser.

Dear Harish mian...

Nahin pai.. why must the world be an endless binary code for you...

All I am saying is that the speech she is erroneously referring to is there in full text and easily available... as it is the famous ``we bid good bye to constitutional means`` speech and to the best of my knowledge it doesn`t have any reference to India being destroyed... Nor has Margaret Bourke-White said that it was a first hand account... she was present a day earlier at Jinnah`s house... and not at the event. Read your own sources carefuly.

As for Simon and Schuster... they`ve just published General Musharraf`s memoirs and paid him a million dollars in advance... so what does that mean? Get it? Or will you buy everything Musharraf says in the book?

In any event... I still don`t understand what this has to do with Gandhi`s sterling credentials as a racist, casteist, hindu exclusivist, misogynist bigot unless you feel that since Jinnah allegedly said something... it is a blanket ratification for all of Gandhi`s exclusivist, racist, casteist, bigoted, Hindu fundamentalist views that antagonised Jinnah in the first place?

#199 by Yasser

Margaret Bourke-White doesn`t say it was her first hand account. You have to produce the exact speech ... and the speech that is being referenced here is the famous July 29th 1946 Speech where Jinnah announced the direct action day... the text of that speech makes no such reference... so clearly Margaret Bourke-White`s close connections to Gandhi were beginning to play some tricks on her mind... or she made it up.

Are you saying this whole book was made up by Margaret Bourke-White? Apparently, the publishers Simon & Schuster didn`t think so. As for her ``close connections`` with Gandhi, other than in your own head, you haven`t provided any evidence whatsoever to that effect, so guess whose testimony carries more weight? And I gave that link precisely because you would read through it to understand it, but apparently I overestimated your intelligence.

Majumdar...

I think it is clear that Gandhi encouraged their continuation ... and his political philosophy revolved around it.

Gandhi then was a product of this mindset.. this casteist, racist, misogynist exclusivist mindset ... and he expected others to accept his racism....

Harishbhai/Manto mian,

Sorry to butt into your lovefest but I would like to observe the following on MAJ (pbuh) and MKG.

It is India`s fortune that MKG`s legacy has largely been disowned in India and even more Pakistan`s misfortune that MAJ (pbuh) legacy has been disowned in Pak. In fact MAJ`s Pak does not even exist.

Regards

Harishbhai/Manto mian,

(India continues to be mired in these social ills that can be traced back straight to Gandhi... )

Have to agree with Harishbhai here. India/Hanuds have a hell lot of problems but sadly these have nothing to do with MKG (although I agree with YLH that he was a nasty piece of goods). Racism/casteism, social inequalities, gender inequalities have been there for thousands of years before MKG was born and did not die with him either and wouldn`t for many generations at least. In India certainly and whether Manto mian choses to admit or not, probably in Pak/Bdesh too.

Regards

Dear Harish mian,

Clever by half was reference to your 1940 comment and your failed attempt to defend Gandhi by abusing Jinnah. I was talking of the context in particular specific reference to your comments vis a vis 1940 speech...

Btw what first hand account ? Mar