Saving Pakistan with the Constitution

#191 by Yasser

Ofcourse... this is the biggest hogwash known to mankind. The fact is that Gandhi did a lot of posturing for the media... but the end result was that the overwhelming majority of those killed at partition were Muslims moving to Pakistan.

But guess who was responsible for their miseries? Jinnah was! Gandhi didn`t demand Partition. He did not ask for separate homelands for Muslims because Hindus and Muslims were separate people, he was not the one who said ``we`ll either have a divided India or a destroyed India``.

We must give up this witchdoctorism... we must recognise Gandhi for the racist casteist Hindu bigot and the hypocrite he was...

It breaks my heart to break this to you, but the fact is that no one is buying this snake oil except perhaps Yasser and family. Meanwhile here is what the old TB-afflicted crook said in 1940:

``It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religious in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders, and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has troubles and will lead India to destruction if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, litterateurs. They neither intermarry nor interdine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state.``

Ofcourse... this is the biggest hogwash known to mankind. The fact is that Gandhi did a lot of posturing for the media... but the end result was that the overwhelming majority of those killed at partition were Muslims moving to Pakistan. This is a fact that blows a million holes in Nasah`s attempt to salvage Gandhi`s reputation by employing emotional hysteria...

We must give up this witchdoctorism... we must recognise Gandhi for the racist casteist Hindu bigot and the hypocrite he was...

#180 Nasah

[Gandhi was a great soul who with his sureme sacrifice that his very life -- saved million Muslim lives and protected their dignity and civil rights at the lowest ebb of the Muslim existence in divided India. ]

Nasah sahib,

You are a good man who is not afraid to tell it like it is!

Dear Harish mian...

Poor Dr. King probably didn`t even know what Gandhi was made of... it is said that upon visiting India he was chastened. In any event, most of what he had mistakenly attributed to Gandhi were actually quotes from B R Ambedkar...

In any event... you declared (and your ilog is still there) that Gandhi was great because some US law makers said he was great... so I am not sure what your problem with Towns is ... Is he not a law maker? Is he not part of the Congress?

You say: ``Edolphus Towns is a nobody``

A nobody who has been elected to the US Congress more times than any other african american... compared to him what are you? Also I don`t know how a 40 year old racist bigot that Gandhi was qualifies as ``young lawyer`` but to date you`ve failed to produce a single statement from Gandhi expresses regret at his shameful behavior. The way you are jumping up and down shows how exposed your myths really are.


-YLH

#186 by Mantolives

So the US Congressional Record is a dubious source? What are you smoking dude? As for Edolphus Towns... is he dubious because he is black and Gandhi hated black people?

Aww Yasser, it is dubious because you chose to hide the source from where you picked that record off. It is common practice to provide the link to the source, that you didn`t confirms that while you valiantly and rather cleverly attempted to expose Gandhi, the only one whose loin cloth came off is you.

That Gandhi remains popular with Blacks despite his earlier opinion of them is testament to the fact that they recognized that he had evolved from a narrow-minded young lawyer to a truly global leader. Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King are a couple of such men who drew insipration from him. Compared to the two, Edolphus Towns is a nobody, so only a fool with attach too mch importance to what he says.

PS: Imagining ``hidings`` and declaring victory ala Saddam Hussain style after getting a can of whoop ass opened on your rearend... won`t change the fact that you`ve run away from my board with your tail between your legs.

Harish mian,

So the US Congressional Record is a dubious source? What are you smoking dude? As for Edolphus Towns... is he dubious because he is black and Gandhi hated black people?

Last I checked ... he was a US law maker- returned to the US Congress no less than 13 times... as elected as those unnamed US lawmakers quoted by Indian Express who you thought- in your fantasy world- amounted to a ``resounding slap``. Then take your slap in good humour my friend.

#184 by Mantolives

Aww Yasser, after the hiding you received at the other board, you now have taken to unveiling Gandhi`s loin cloth here? You can keep that as a souvenir, if you so like it. But the sad part is that your own loin cloth has come off, given the dubious source you`re quoting from. Edolphus Towns` record as a known India baiter is well known, and that you picked it off from www.khalistan.com is a double whammy. You`ll have to do better than that Yasser, this attempt has failed rather miserably.

Harish mian and his imagination...

Nasah mian has the right to admire who wishes to and I have the right to expose Gandhi for what he was- a racist casteist hindu fanatic ... who is now being recognised for who he was...

And just so that you thougt your comment: ``Now he won`t be able to take a leak without chanting Gandhi`s name like a mantra for the next 10 days or so`` ... could pre-empt the summary denudation and unveiling of Gandhiji`s loin cloth...

Here is knot number1



(Extensions of Remarks - December 13, 2005)

HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2005


Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Speaker, the unveiling of a statue of Mohandas K. Gandhi in Johannesburg, South Africa, set off a discussion about the anti-black racism of the founder of India.

When the eight-foot high Gandhi statue was unveiled, portraying him as a young human-rights lawyer, many leaders attacked Gandhi`s anti-black statements. “Gandhi had no love for Africans,`` said one letter in The Citizen, a South African newspaper. “To him, Africans were no better than the `Untouchables` of India.``

As you may know, Mr. Speaker, the dark-skinned aborigines of the subcontinent, known as Dalits or “Untouchables,`` occupy the lowest rung on the ladder of India`s rigid and racist caste system. The caste system exists to protect the privileged position of the Brahmins, the top caste. Although it was officially banned by India`s constitution in 1950, it is still strictly practiced in Hindu India.

Others have pointed out that Gandhi ignored the suffering of black people during the colonial occupation of South Africa. When he was arrested and forced to share a cell with black prisoners, he wrote that they were “only one degree removed from the animal.`` In other words, Mr. Speaker, he described blacks as less than human. We condemn anyone who says this in our country, such as the Ku Klux Klan and others, as we should. Why is Gandhi venerated for such statements?

In addition, G.B. Singh, a Gandhi biographer, has looked through many pictures of him and never seen one single black person. Gandhi also attacked white Europeans.

Gandhi is honored as the founder of India. These statements and attitudes reveal the racist underpinning behind the secular, democratic facade of India. It explains a worldview that permits a Dalit constable to be stoned to death for entering the temple on a rainy day, that allows the murders of over 300,000 Christians in Nagaland, over 250,000 Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan, over 90,000 Muslims in Kashmir, tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims elsewhere in the country, including Graham Staines and his two young sons, and tens of thousands of Assamese, Bodos, Dalits, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minorities. It explains why the pro-Fascist, Hindu militant RSS is a powerful organization in India, in control of one of its two major political parties.

India must abandon its racist attitudes and its exploitation of minorities. It must allow the enjoyment of full human rights by everyone. Until it does so, we should stop our aid and trade with India. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the essence of democracy is the right to self-determination. India must allow self-determination for Kashmir, as it promised the United Nations in 1948, in Punjab, Khalistan, in Nagaland, and wherever the people seek to free themselves from the boot of Indian oppression. We should put this Congress on record in support of self-determination for the people of the subcontinent in the form of a free and fair plebiscite on the question of independence. Khalistan declared its independence on October 7, 1987. The people have never been allowed to have a simple, democratic vote on the matter. Instead, India continues to oppress the people there with over half a million troops.

#180 by nasah

Nasah Sahib, why did you have to kick Yasser in the groin like that? Now he won`t be able to take a leak without chanting Gandhi`s name like a mantra for the next 10 days or so.

Nasah,

You are right Gandhi was not a politician. That would be supremely an insult to all politicians...

While I don`t share Naqshbandi`s views... but I would hope that all educated and enlightened people will stop repeating myths about Gandhi... and recognise him for what his writings show him to be... a witchdoctor of the worst kind, a racist, casteist bigot and a hypocrite. Nothing else.

This is my considered opinion based on Gandhi`s writings. Producing ``testimonials`` will not change any view. The world once thought earth was flat and the world can go on considering Gandhi an apostle of non-violence in the meanwhile.

Buleya:

You must be pretty screwed up in the head.

Perhaps your pre-school mind needs a lesson:

Here`s the first list you provide:
- Aitezaz Ahsan (PPP)
- Yusuf Raza Gilani (PPP)
- Imran Khan (PTI)
- A retired Musharraf who joins a political party
- A Shaukut Aziz who is genuinely elected through a political party
- Chaudhry Nisar (somewhat OK) (PML)
- Shahbaz Sharif (assuming he can disassociate himself from his family) (PML)


Among these, EVERYONE - and EVERYONE - let me repeat EVERYONE wants the constitution to be applicable to all and the institutions to be supreme - EXCEPT your lovable fuuk head Musharaf and his disposable diaper Shaukat Aziz (I dunno about gilani though).

So where are you coming upwith the perverted logic that the above do not want the constitution to be supreme?

``Constitutions are only as good as the individuals who are in power. ``

You sound like a good student of General Zia. `What is the constitution? It`s a piece of paper!` - such sht head comments I suppose still have followers.

Ahmed Faraz in reply to such krap like you`re spilling out said that if you reject the constitution on that principle, why not say ``What is the Koran? It`s a piece of paper!`

You Bulleya Sir, are clearly a Fauji-Lover! First to place the likes of great lawyers like Aitezaz Ahsan and claim they would prefer doing without a constitution whereas they are the MOST ardent followers of the constitution - no one worships it more than him! and then imply that Musharaf and Aziz could get `elected` or even try to get elected - it`s great to dream and all...but let`s try to be real.

Re: # 175

``When Ala Hadrat Imam Ahmad Rida was told that Gandhi wanted to meet him he replied. ``He is a politician. I am a faqeer. What have we got in common?`` and refused to meet him.`(Nqshbandi)

Naqsh my lad -- Gandhi was not a ``laanati`` lunatic self seeking politician -- and he was in reality a faqir -- even Churchill called him a Faqir derisively but factually -- a politician who did not covet the chair -- did not ammass wealth -- was not a divider --but the uniter of communnities especially the bridger of the gulf between the Hindus and Muslims -- for bri-- he even paid with his life -- and you call him `laanati` -- shame on you!

When your Ala Hadrat refused to meet Gandhi -- your Ala Hadrat became the politician -- he ceased to be a Faqir -- because a true Faqir will meet every one even a politician -- except may a competing fellow Faqir......:)

Young man get rid of all this heresies from your hearsay head -- take it from this Muslim man who knew Gandhi personally -- not from the Monday quarterbacking charlatan writers and biased pseudo researchers.

Gandhi was a great soul who with his sureme sacrifice that his very life -- saved million Muslim lives and protected their dignity and civil rights at the lowest ebb of the Muslim existence in divided India.

An educated enlightened person like you should not use a `laanati` word against a towering yet gentle soul like Gandhi.

In the political junkyard called the jewelry shop now a days -- of that godforsaken subcontinent -- on both sides of the border -- they pick dirty street stones -- wash the crap around them with holy waters -- wrap them in velvet boxes -- and exhibit them as `real` gems -- while throwing the real gems as head-bursting rocks on the impressionable young minds of kids like you.....what a shame!

The following individuals would make pretty good Prime Ministers/Presidents of Pakistan. Assuming they can reach the position. Not in any particular order.......

- Aitezaz Ahsan (PPP)
- Yusuf Raza Gilani (PPP)
- Imran Khan (PTI)
- A retired Musharraf who joins a political party
- A Shaukut Aziz who is genuinely elected through a political party
- Chaudhry Nisar (somewhat OK) (PML)
- Shahbaz Sharif (assuming he can disassociate himself from his family) (PML)

The following indiviudals would not make good Prime Ministers/President. Unfortunately they are the ones who have the most chances......

- Benazir Bhutto (PPP)
- Asif Zardari (PPP)
- Amin Fahim (PPP)
- Nawaz Sharif (PML)
- Chaudhry Shujaat (PML)
- An unelected Musharraf (now a liability)
- Qazi Hussain (MMA)
- Fazl-ur-Rahman (MMA)

What exactly does all of this have to do with the Constitution? Nothing much. Other than the fact that in Pakistan, these individuals, specifically those in the second list, and what they want is the Constitution. Constitutions are only as good as the individuals who are in power.

re: Mantolives # 177

Yasser, my disagreements with Rozaiba have always been on the procedural nature of the constitutional argument. As you correctly stated, there is a lot of uncertainity in the Pakistani politics. The intent of my argument, with Rozaiba, was never to deny the importance and the primacy of the constitutional paradigm in Pakistani politics, but to suggest that there is a lot of spade work that needs to be done in order to frame a proper political and legal environment for viable constitutionalism in Pakistan.

Ciao

Ofcourse BJ the fact that those ``ludicrous`` things are based in history is a very inconvenient fact for you...

Ferozk,

Your point about the Military seeking political legitimacy is valid and was a theme of mine... that Military is ceding more and more space to civil society and politicians... however, coming into close contact with the establishment... and how it loves to choke judiciary for example.. I was forced to change my opinion. If you recall... in our little Freddy`s meets... you and I would disagree with Rozaiba... but I think Rozaiba is right. This seeking political legitimacy business only leaves politics more vulnerable and doesn`t help the nation.

On another note... that you, a most seasoned commentator, praised post 158 by one interactor known for his outright lunacy, I was forced to go and read it and I found this gem of a statement- surprising me that it came from an utter lunatic:

``In other words, people have to start thinking of democracy as something which will require flexibility from EVERY side, even if one of the sides has a clear majority. The political players have to stop treating politics like a ball game with ``win`` or ``lose`` results.``

Unfortunately- to harp on the theme closest to bjkumar`s heart- partition of 1947 was the direct result of Congress` inability to be flexible because it had a clear majority... even though the party of the minority was bending backwards to come to an arrangement to reconcile the Pakistan idea with a United India... But Congress said- We have a majority and its either ``my way or the high way``.

-YLH

Re: bjkumar # 158

I agree, with your comments. However, one distinction which I would like to make is that in the present day Pakistan, even the military feels the need to ``win`` elections. As much as the military may seek upsurp the electoral process, it cannot stay in power without the fig leaf of a political legitimacy and only elections make that possible. Therefore, the more the miltiary stays in power, the more pressure there will be on it to exist within the parameters of politics and this also, to an extent, explains why the military leaves power and hands the political reins back to the civilians. In Pakistan, one of the unstated tragedies is that the politicans are not even united against the military and its ventures into politics and the military exploiting this sense of national political disunity, has been able to wreak the the process of politics in Pakistan and in the process, periodically manage to use a ``divide and conquer`` strategy to dominate Pakistani politics.

Other than this point, I totally agree with with your observations and once the rest of the people in this start to understand what you have said; then maybe there is hope for this country.

Ciao

Gandhi was a la`anati and his mirage of `Hindu Muslim` unity was just a cunning stunt to try and prevent Muslims from getting real political power.

Sadly, his stunts fooled many people, inlcuding some maulvis, but the vast majority saw behind his facade.

When Ala Hadrat Imam Ahmad Rida was told that Gandhi wanted to meet him he replied. ``He is a politician. I am a faqeer. What have we got in common?`` and refused to meet him.

#173

Yaar Faruk,

Suffice it to say that even a casual reading of some of the Pakistani interacts makes it amply clear why Manto has his own compulsions for saying some of the most ludicrous things - even though obviously knowing how ludicrous those things are.

I got to go. Have fun, everybody.

re: montolives # 171
The flaw I was referring to was not just what Gandhi did but the very concept of a distinct identity for Muslims.

Regards,

Faruk

re: rozaiba # 170
“I fail to see how Gandhi`s beliefs and actions pointed out above can be out-weighed by the good he did.” That’s your perspective and its fine. But you must understand that other people view it differently and view Gandhi in an entirely different light.

I don’t see the parallels you draw with American history. “Separate but equal” has worked for us in the form of linguistic states. We tried to preserve the distinct culture of every part of the country and I think it has worked for us. It has enabled an incredibly diverse nation come together. To the best of my understanding Gandhi was trying to extend that to the Muslims. I think the idea was flawed but it was not malicious.

Regards,

Faruk.

Faruk...

My only issue is this... if Gandhi was helping ``Muslims`` achieve a ``distinct identity`` by promoting the Mullahs of Deoband... then Indians who follow Gandhi should not fault the Muslims modernists of Aligarh, united under Jinnah, for mounting a counter coup to take over that distinct identity.

You can`t have it both ways... it can`t be ``heads Congress wins, tails League loses``.

Faruk:

``He was trying to help Muslims preserve a distinct identity, as flawed as his ideas were I don’t think he had bad intentions. ``

Yes, even the old Southerners will insist they were trying to protect the human race by flying banners of seperatism. They too had `good intentions`. In fact, Woodrow Wilson, when he saw the film where the Ku Klux Klansmen are seen as heroes protecting the purity of the white race from the Nergoids who had kidnapped their women was so touched he proclaimed the movie as a great inspiration for its truth! And this was a Princeton professor mind you.

Does Wilson`s `good intentioned` bigotry take anything away from his achievements? One can argue that point. But one thing is certain. He would most certainly not be labelled a `mahatma`.

``To put this is perspective, all the Punjabis criticizing your article are not necessarily anti baloch. ``

I agree. I haven`t seen anyone here who is anti-Baloch - no matter how much people disagree with the article. It`s common sense to support the Baluch. So your analogy was useless.

Subcontinental history is filled with heroes whose objective analysis would strip them of their stature. For example, Shah Waliullah is showered with accolades and his letter to Abdali is read in school classes. Few care to understand the other side of such historical strategems (such as Baba Bulleh Shah`s ridicule of Abdali`s conquests) and prefer to solidify the one-sided view of history based entirely on religious affiliation. However, the 20th century was no longer the century of ignorance and those who could see the filth that religious inspiration was bound to unfurl strayed clear of it. Gandhi chose to side with ignorance and that will irreparably dent his credentials.

In any case, Gandhi`s `separate but equal` belief system was inherently repulsive and the stupidity of the Khilafat Movement set a precedent that will take many years to recover from. I fail to see how Gandhi`s beliefs and actions pointed out above can be out-weighed by the good he did.

re : rozaiba # 167
In India we recognize Gandhi for what he achieved, we don’t expect any of our leaders to take us all the way. There is a lot you can criticize about Gandhi but he did achieve greatness in spite of all his shortcomings. We as Indians and people all over the world recognize him for that.
Was he right in supporting the Khilafat movement? No. Was Gandhi right to support the concept of “Separate but equal” as you call it? No. But I don’t think this takes away from his greatness. He was trying to help Muslims preserve a distinct identity, as flawed as his ideas were I don’t think he had bad intentions.
To put this is perspective, all the Punjabis criticizing your article are not necessarily anti baloch. Nor are they mad at showing them the mirror. I guess it takes a lot to look beyond your nose.

Regards,

Faruk

bjk...

Gandhi never changed his outlook... he was a Hindu misogynist racist bigot to the very last.
There was no expansion of his outlook... you`ve not produced a single statement where he expressed his regret at his bigotry which he was committed to most of his adult life...

As for Jinnah and his movement... it was a coup against the very Mullahs who had alongwith Gandhi tried to hijack the Muslims and had made Islamic and Hindu identities a non-negotiable question in Indian politics... And yes... I am not a scholar. Only you are .. of what? God only knows.


Humsab...

Thanks for your comments... I take your perspective as is .. an Indian perspective. I think rozaiba has raised the points I had .. so I don`t need to repeat myself.

Humsab:

I am always surprised when people dismiss a 30-somethings racist diatribe by saying he ‘evolved’. Other than adopting a retro dress sense, I fail to see how Gandhi evolved. Nor did Dr. Ambedkar see Gandhi evolve.

At best he transferred the racist bigotry he valiantly carried the banners for in South Africa, to the caste-ist and religious bigotry of South Asia.

Yes, I also accept some of the positive things Gandhi did. The salt march for example. But when I am blasting Muslims for their desire to revitalize the Khalifat and such nonsense, it is only fair to blast people like Gandhi who promoted the pollution of the political landscape with religious idiocy.

If we deplore the religious parties as fascists today, why does it become so difficult to lambaste Gandhi for using the same techniques that fundo freaks use today?

Separate is NOT equal. Anyone who uses that equation and sells it as a form of egalitarianism deserves to be castigated and ridiculed.

Many in the American south were great folks. They really wanted Blacks to do well. They wanted them to be educated. They treated them like humans. But they believed all this based on the ‘Separate but equal’ mantra.

And so no matter how great a human they were, I don’t think anyone today gives an iota of respect to such filthy beliefs!

#164

[As a scholar ...]

Yaar, who in their right mind would call this character a scholar?!

In fact, every time I have asked him to get a peer review by a legitimate scholar - of the academic type, he has quietened - like a mouse! He merely throws more verbal garbage.

Because this ain`t no scholar. All he is - is a....

I will hold the adjective, because I got to leave for work and I wish to keep my mouth clean!

Ciao.

#163 Yasser

Gandhi started out small. He kept expanding his outlook. He rose and rose. Now he is recognized and admired throughout the world.

Jinnah started out as a “liberal”. When the crunch time came, he proved to have a narrow mindset. He kept narrowing his domain – till he became the pygmy that he ended up being.

A pigmy who is clutched on to – for dear life, by a bunch of pygmies!

And the world sees it for what it is.

And all the lawyerly tricks in the world can not change that simple fact!

Yasser

I have normally stayed away from reacting to your Gandhi bashing. I am not a committed admirer of Gandhi but I admire what I find is admirable. ( For Example I admire your passion and love for your country.)

You see we in India don`t have icons who can`t be criticised or evaluated and so Gandhi is also discussed and criticised on many forums and this has made us less sensitive to this issue.

You people on the other hand have only one icon and are rightly possessive about him and refuse to see that he was wrong on many counts.

You must recognise the fact that you are quoting from Gandhi`s collected works and neither Gandhi nor his admirers found any need to hide these facts of his life. That is remarkable as this man practiced what he preached and for him `Truth was religion`.

Second fact you refuse to consider is this man`s Evolution over time in his life.
He was an ordinary man who evolved over time to become a Great Man recognised all over the world in spite of his earlier failings which he never tried to hide.

On the other hand your Idol Jinnah took the reverse course. He started as a Great Man but at the end became an ordinary person. However, spark of his earlier version remained as he himself accepted that creation of Pakistan was a blunder. (I personally feel very happy that your country was created by him) But part of hypocracy was that he wanted to come back and live in India among Hindus who were a different nation. How do you reslove this dilemma on his part?

As a scholar you have to keep your mind open and not get bogged down by the position you have adopted in the beginning. Learned persons conitnue to learn.

I wish you all the best that you achieve the dream that you have about your country but do you really think you will win this battle. It is sad that now you are receiving end of the abuse from educated well-placed compatriots of your country.
You do have the courage to continue. Do keep it up as you will need it continuously.

Best Wishes and Regards

Gandhi`s Early life ? He was a Hindu fanatic all his life... and just because you say something doesn`t make it true. Jinnah was hailed by your own leaders as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity for 35 years....

You ought to look at that racist, casteist, misogynist Hindu fanatic Mahatma Gandhi and his Khilafat movement which made religion and Islamic and Hindu identities a non-negotiable element in Indian politics...Gandhi was the poison that went to the roots of the tree... so much so that 3/4ths of it had to be cut and thrown away.

By the way... the fact that Maulana Fazlurrahman`s father Mufti Mahmood came into politics after being encouraged by Mohandas Gandhi.. and that Fazlurrahman was the father of the taliban... I suppose that makes Mahatma Gandhi the great grandfather of Taliban and international terrorismby your logic ... What a bigot... not only was Gandhi a cynical hindu bigot hypocrite... he also inspired Islamic fascists and Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists in general all over the world.

Wah Mahatma wah!

Yaar Manto, stop recycling old selective stuff from Gandhi’s early life. You have been called out a number of times on your lawyerly attributes of skewing the presentation to make your case and not giving a whit about the truth.

Also, let us focus on Jinnah – the chief mastermind of Muslim exclusivity – which is at the root of many of the problems that the world faces today in the form of international terrorism. It is also at the root of virtually every problem the subcontinent faces today.

Jinnah was the poison that went into the roots of the tree and destroyed it.

And people like you live with the consequences – whether or not you have the courage to face the truth!

Dear Majumdar,

Jinnah as a lawyer made the distinction between national language and state language. It was the latter that he designated Urdu as. I don`t think it was a great decision but we must be clear on what he said. He also encouraged Bengalis to propagate and preserve Bengali.

Faisal/Manto mian,

MAJ (pbuh) would have served Pakistan better had he made English the national language. There was no real rationale for making Urdu the national as well as official language- making a language which is the mother tongue of only one segment of the population as the national language is always a risky affair. Imposition of Hindi as the national language in 1960s created havoc in South India.

But having said that, I think the language issue was only a symptom rather than the cause of the breakup in 1970-71. The real issues were continuous denial of democratic rights, unequal development and of course the geographical unreality of pre-1971 Pakistan.

Regards

bjkumar several#,


I see that your symptoms (of the disease of ``Delusional Gandhiism``) have surfaced again:

You`ve asking for some treatment with that medicine called truth and facts...

Well I am at your service

Abusing Jinnah or anyone else will not change the fact that the only vamp in the history of South Asia was that casteist racist misogynist Hindu fanatic called Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi... who believed that some people were less human than others because of the color of their skin and who believed that in order to be a true Indian you had to be Hindu first.... who believed Hindus were superior to Muslims and who believed the ``harijans`` were god`s people deployed on cleaning shit and that is what they had to do...

Please NOTE all REFERENCES from GANDHI`S COLLECTED WORKS:

On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183

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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could…But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized—the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135

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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.

Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149

On What Gandhi wanted (9)

Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

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On What Gandhi wanted (8)

The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi

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On What Gandhi wanted (7)

More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji…

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

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On What Gandhi wanted (6)

More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji…

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG

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On What Gandhi wanted (5)

It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children

Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (12)

What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330

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On What Gandhi wanted (11)

Ah… and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad…

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89

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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131


...

For his views on Caste system

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.



This is Mohandas Gandhi

#157 Ferozk

Feroz sahib, there IS one difference between the politicians and the khakis - one of them has to win elections.

The real respect needs to be not for that paper document called the constitution, but to respect other people - and to develop the ability to accept diversity in general and diversity of opinions in particular and not having qualms regarding what means are to be acceptable to ``bring others round`` to one`s own views.

In other words, people have to start thinking of democracy as something which will require flexibility from EVERY side, even if one of the sides has a clear majority. The political players have to stop treating politics like a ball game with ``win`` or ``lose`` results.

The only win takes place if negotiations among the parties are successful.

And the elected leaders must consider themselves only custodians of the high office - not as becoming the office themselves.

re: Rozaiba

Listening to politicans on TV is not the same as listening to them ``off camera``. In front of the TV, they all make the right sounds but when they come to power, they are as wont to overstep the constitutional limits as the army. There is no difference between the politicans and the army as they all cater to their own power at expense of all else. To both of these groups, the constitution is simply another piece of paper. Unless and until, our political leaders in or out of uniform start to respect the constitution on a personal level, it is meaningless to expect them to follow the constitution regardless of how much they may ape its usefulness and agree to its implementation.

The point of my post was that things in Pakistan are too fraught with peronal political/party conflicts and unlike your fantasy bubble, the real world of politics in Pakistan is too much of a zero-sum game. :)

Ciao

#155 by nasah

Ama yaar, Mushy IS a dictator and I have been less than kind to him in the past.

But let’s face it – Pakistani guys will tear each others to shreds, if it were not for the restraining arms of the khakis.

Groups like ARD show up like bubbles in Pakistani politics. They are single agenda-driven and disappear so quickly that if you blink – you are likely to miss them.

Who would you rather have? The mullahs, the BB, or the Sharif – the first gave Pakistan the Taliban, the second Mr. ten-percenter, and the last one also did some crappy stuff (which I have forgotten).

Calling folks names does not get you anywhere – you need to question the support structure which builds such people up and sustains them, and upon their downfall sends in others to play exactly the same roles.

And rest assured, GWB had nothing to do with any of this stuff.

MMA on one side and Musharraf on the other -- are hell bent on dividing and destroying the opposition alliance ARD.

The MMA is a fifth column planted by the army to disrupt the alliance -- its outrageous opposition to even a token reform of women`s rape bill -- that is removing the clause of the necessity for 4 `piously` depraved Muslims voyeurs to watch the woman being raped -- if no Mullah saw the rape -- no rape -- it was ADULTRY committed by the raped woman!

This game by the MMA -- can only be interpreted as trying to bust the ARD from within.

Because that bearded donkey Fazooloo must know very well that Benazir Bhutto and her PPP -- CAN NEVER EVER support -- that laannti primitive barbaric disgusting requirement of 4 Muslim witnesses -- to keep the alliance together.

Now we hear that Musharraf the `progressive` crusader for the `rights` of rape victims like Mukhtaran Mai and Dr Shazia -- is offering Benazir Bhutto the reins of government -- if PPP will support the government reforms.

Shujaat and the shariati nawab Nawaz Sharif apparently have no qualms in riding the MMA mules -- in aping the MMA monkeys on rape law -- if they can get together as one PML party.

But -- and this is a humungously BIG BUT -- there is extreme PERIL awaiting both Nawaz Sharif -- and most of all -- for Benazir Bhutto -- in the Machiavellian maneuverings of MMA-Musharraf.

Nawaz Sharif should not sacrifice that Charter of Democracy that he signed with Benazir Bhutto with so much fanfare -- for getting together with that ordained opportunist Shujaat.

And Benazir MUST not bolt the ARD for sharing the throne with that back--stabbing drowning King Musharraf -- howsoever breathless she may become for the dangling diamond of her prime ministership.

Instead both Benazir and Nawaz should jump off the unworthy back of the MMA mule -- and with their combined strength PUSH that mule over the bridge into the Chenab river....for good -- never to look back again......

....... and VOTE with Shaukat Aziz -- on the reformed rape law -- then go back to the opposition.

Mian Uno and All interactors,

I apologize to anybody who is hurt by my harsh words. I have the best wishes for the people of Pakistan.

But NEVER ask me to go easy on the personalities that brought our people to this pass – especially the vamp and his cohorts – who should have known better!

NEVER in a lifetime!

Or ANY lifetime!

So, the vamp shall never escape and any defenders of the vamp are fair chow!

I think Pakistan should reform its educational system so the learning closely matches their day-to-day job requirements.

Suggested Freshman year courses:

PSYCH 101: How to Lick Khaki Boots.

PSYCH 102: How to Bed you Local Jihadi (For ladies only)

PSYCH 103: The Best Part of Denial

PSYCH 104: Flushing Your Constitution: the Secret to Healthy Living

given that i have something indians will never have - i.e. class, i am going to end this right now. plus all the khayali pulao being made here is made very hungry.

#150
[say a prayer for jinnah ]

Absolutely. They should get into line for saying their prayers. But no cutting in. Make sure you wait for your turn....

Right behind Dr. Naz.

Right behind the lady doctor.

And right behind the Mai.

....

Be patient, now. Your turn can not be very far behind!

i think every pakistani should look at indians here and then say a prayer for jinnah to thank him for what he has achieved.

#147 Uno
[bollywood actresses ]

I thought that for you, Manto, and others like him - male AND female - the only true excitement comes from dreaming of the vamp!

Who procured it all for you guys and gals!

The vamp`s way - the Pakistani way. Put up a picture of the vamp, then....

Ready,

Set.

Orgasm!!!

I think every Pakistani must remember the vamp tomorrow, take a good look around and thank him from the bottom of his/her heart for what he has ``given`` him/her.

And keeps ``giving`` till today.

bollywood actresses better get used to some humping. i am about to visit mumbai.

#145 Uno

[indians lived through 1000 years of occupation. ]

Yaar, but it is a new experience for you guys! Thank your vamp pimp profusely!

And start getting used to some serious humping!

As well as huffing and puffing!

You guys have had 60 years to get used to it - it`s about time now!

indians lived through 1000 years of occupation. they are used to eating khayali pulao. eases the pain of reality.

#143

[...some dunda...]

Yaar, but nothing compared to what he did to you guys!

Dunda....Bangladesh! Aaa-ouch!

Dunda....Sindh! Aaa-ouch!

Dunda....NWFP! Aaa-ouch!

And continues to do to this day...

Dunda....Mushy! Aaa-ouch!

Dunda....Mullah! Aaa-ouch!

Hai, hai!

Iss rump mein dun-dey hazaar hue
Koi yahan ghussa, koi wahan ghussa...

jinnah has inserted some dunda up the collective indian ass. seems the hurt is still strong nearly 60 years after his death.

#141 Uno

[ask yourself the side the likes of asma jehangir and hoobhoys would be taking if they had been alive on sep 11, 1946.]

They would probably be on the side of common sense – certainly not the vamp pimp! But will be too scared to say it out aloud.

And these nuggets from the vamp’s speech:

[… That unity we, as true Muslims, must jealously guard and preserve.]

O what a secular the vamp makes! (And somebody ought to clarify if Manto would be considered a ``true`` Muslim by the vamp, or not.)

[…. the Indian press, …. now trying to disrupt Pakistan from within by insidious propaganda aimed at setting brother Muslim against brother Muslim?]

Sure, blame it on the Indians, then wonder why generation after generation of the Pakistani crooks (oops, I mean “leaders”) in khaki and in civilian clothes, continued to develop that “enemy” mentality.

[… This is the only way in which we can raise Pakistan rapidly and surely to its proper, worthy place in the comity of nations...]

I think it is already half-way there!

sep 11 is here. it is the saddest day in the history of pak because this is the date of jinnah`s death anniversary. his message however still lives especially his warnings now that haters of pakistan are exploiting the new found freedom granted by mush to spread all sorts of misinformation.

jinnah had warned against these people - people who had been against pak from day 1. these days these people hide behind the guise of liberalism - guise of human rights. ask yourself the side the likes of asma jehangir and hoobhoys would be taking if they had been alive on sep 11, 1946.

from jinnah speech to bengalis - waste of a good speech. i urge pakistanis to read this paragraph in full:

``..But this language controversy is really only one aspect of a bigger problem--that of provincialism. I am sure you must realize that in a newly-formed State like Pakistan, consisting moreover as it does of two widely separated parts, cohesion and solidarity amongst all its citizens, from whatever part they may come, is essential for its progress, nay for its very survival. Pakistan is the embodiment of the unity of the Muslim nation and so it must remain. That unity we, as true Muslims, must jealously guard and preserve. If we begin to think of ourselves as Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhis etc. first and Muslims and Pakistanis only incidentally, then Pakistan is bound to disintegrate. Do not think that this is some abstruse proposition: our enemies are fully alive to its possibilities, which I must warn you they are already busy exploiting. I would ask you plainly, when political agencies and organs of the Indian press, which fought tooth and nail to prevent the creation of Pakistan, are suddenly found with a tender conscience for what they call the `just claims` of the Muslims of East Bengal, do you not consider this a most sinister phenomenon? Is it not perfectly obvious that, having failed to prevent the Muslims from achieving Pakistan, these agencies are now trying to disrupt Pakistan from within by insidious propaganda aimed at setting brother Muslim against brother Muslim? That is why I want you to be on your guard against this poison of provincialism that our enemies wish to inject into our State. There are great tasks to be accomplished and great dangers to be overcome: overcome them we certainly shall but we shall do so much quicker if our solidarity remains unimpaired and if our determination to march forward as a single, united nation remains unshaken. This is the only way in which we can raise Pakistan rapidly and surely to its proper, worthy place in the comity of nations....``

I think the comprison with 1971 is 100% valid -- one Army General Yahya cut the Eastern wing of Pakistan -- with the imbecile atrocious assassination of Bugti -- another General Son of Yahya has cut the Western wing of Pakistan -- turning Pakistan into a flightless Dodo bird.

Mushrraf does not comprehend the monstrosity of the crime HE HAS COMMITTED -- he has been badly badly served by a killer cabal of monstrously stupid sycophant assassins working as `advisors` for whom solutions to complex regional constitutional problems is a simple targetd assassination.

In their imbecile minds they still regret why didn`t they assassinate Mujib to prevent the break up of East Pakistan...!

``A comparison of the current situation in Balochistan with that of East Pakistan in the 1970s is, indeed, inappropriate and infuriates our military strategists and Islamic ideologists. But such a comparison is hard to resist and is being made every day.

The people who make this comparison may not matter very much but they should not be dismissed as alarmists either. The last to be dismissed should be Nawab Khair Bux Marri, the most senior and venerable of the Baloch sardars. He has broken his long silence only to declare that Balochistan is an independent territory; it never was nor is now a part of Pakistan.

The Marri sardar’s statement should cause greater worry to the generals and ideologists than the revolt of the Bugtis and the death of their leader in the mountains while fighting against the troops and gunships.

It was a mistake to assume that the oppressed Bugti folk would celebrate the Nawab’s death and that people elsewhere would initially protest but then acquiesce.

It would be a bigger mistake if the authorities were to treat the Marri leader’s denunciation of Pakistan as the ravings of a senile man. That he may be, but if there was no movement for an independent Balochistan previously, Akbar Bugti’s death and Khair Bux Marri’s declaration have now given birth to it.``(Kunwar Idris in DAWN)

Provincial Autonomy is very important for the federation like pakistan where atleast four different nations exist with their own cultural and traditional identities and historical backgrounds so that the people have control on their own resources and they have no apprehension to be turned into a minority in their own region. The message, which `Bugti Incident`, conveys is very clear that there s no rule of law or `role of law` today in pakistan. The Demands for lawful rights r not heard and resultantly if they turn into a forceful agitation r dealt with military operations, no role of law enforcement agencies and no opportunity of fair trial..might s right n survial of the fittest..in these set of circumstances `seperation` is not a bad option bcoz the welfare of the people should always b the ultimate object and if thats not possible within united pakistan one rightly goes for seperation specially whn a province is mere legally (dejure) part of the federation and not the defacto, whn law enforcement agencies has nothing to do n the militray operations r the sole answer where establishment of military cantonments r thoguht necessary for having control.... I dont know y should one keep dreaming about the united pakistan ignoring the ground realities.

#121 by Naqshbandi on September 8, 2006 3:27pm PT
naqsh
things may be bad in UK with regard to discrimination, but unfortunately they are worst in sweden.

STOCKHOLM, September 9 – Many Muslims and immigrants, feeling the pinch of an evident racial discrimination in job recruitment in Sweden, have changed their names to make a living in the European country, said a report by a mass-circulation daily.
Dagens Nyheter published a detailed report on September 6-7, on how many Swedish citizens had to replace their Arabic or Islamic names with Swedish ones in order to conceal their racial or religious identity – all in the hope of securing a job.
Boyan Asghari, an Iranian, went for Steven Sandneil, Mohamed opted for Anderson – a typical common Swedish name – and Khaled chose to call himself Stevenson.
``I had to do this to find a job. For the Swedish labor market is discriminatory toward Arabs and Muslims,`` Anna, formerly Amani, told the Swedish daily.
Field Survey
The paper carried out a field survey on the job search mechanism and selection, and whether the process is discriminatory against those of Arab and Muslim origins.
Four Swedish citizens, two from Swedish origins and two others hailing from Arab or Muslim origins with Arabic names, were assigned to contact employers for filling same vacancies.
Applicants from Swedish origins got the jobs instantly, while the other two with Arabic names were not that lucky, the results revealed.
According to the Swedish civil affairs department estimates, dozens of Arabs and Muslims in Sweden had applied to change their names during the second half of 2003, in an effort to snatch a job opportunity.
Changing names in Sweden is a common procedure, available to any one. You just need to fill in a form.
Second-Class Treatment
Many social institutions in Stockholm have also been receiving complaints from several Arabs and Muslims as they were sacked from jobs or their job applications were turned down.
Sweden is home to 400,000 Muslim strong community, many have reportedly faced discriminatory practices due to their Arab or Muslim origins since the September 11 attacks on Washington and New York .
The government do well realize the extent of the racial discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in job-recruitment issues.
Minister of Democracy and Minority Integration Issues Mona Sahlin had said the government has spent millions of coronas for convincing the Swedish citizens to be more open to the immigrant communities in the country.
The Swedish daily agreed, saying that Arabs and Muslims in Sweden are receiving a second-class treatment, making them increasingly dependable on the financial assistance from social affairs institutions.
Further, these institutions ask those getting the aid to carry out such lower-wage jobs, such as cleaning services.
Swedish newspapers have recently put at one million the number of those getting social aid all across the country.

#135 Nasah

Thank you for not pinning THIS ONE on GWB!

Ya Ellahi -- killing of Bugti was totally unnecessary and uncalled for -- as the killing of Musharraf would be totally unnecessary and uncalled for.........please.

Of course Baloch Sardars are scoundrels -- and of course the self imposed non Baloch army Sardars are scoundrels as well -- but killing them by smart bombs or by dumb bombs -- is/will be the craziest -- the most stupid thing to do -- either for a Dictator -- or the ``humjins`` Sardar........for a country`s long-term peace harmony and stability......period.

Bugti was no Nek Mohammed and he did NOT deserve to die like one......

Traitors¡¯ Atrocities Against Humanity in Balochistan

http://firstpakistan.wordpress.com/

On August 26th, 2006 the traitor Akbar Bugti was finally hunted down in mountains of Kohlo and was killed like a dog. Akbar Bugti first killed a person when he was just 12 years old and uptill his death he killed nearly 60 persons with his own hands.

During recent days he was getting support from India via Afghanistan in the form of weapons and money to wage war against Pakistan.


Now soon Khair Bakhsh Marri and Attaullah Mengal and Akthar Mengal will be killed and then Balochistan will be on a fast track to progress and justice.

The killing of these traitors is doing justice and giving justice to those people who suffered heavily from the hands of these animals.

Below is a list of atrocities committed by these traitors against Pakistan and against Pakistani people and especially against people of Balochistan.

Balochistan is characterised with complex socio-political culture having strong feudal background and oppressive domination by few tribal chieftains.

Akbar Bugti, Khair Bakhsh Marri and Attaullah Mengal are the most prominent of these having terrorist outlook and traitors of Pakistan.

These so called Nawabs and Sardars have always opposed the development and spread of liberal values in Balochistan. They resorted to coercive and oppressive means against their opponents with no heed to any human rights. They have been using terrorism for continuation of Sardari system and have committed limitless atrocities against innocent civilians for furtherance of their own interests.

Some of the details of atrocities/terrorist activities by these Sardars are given in succeeding paragraphs.

Terrorist activities of Akbar Bugti and his associates

Human Rights Violations ¡ª Akbar Bugti utilising the money collected through illegal means (corruption, blackmailing, narco-trade and arms smuggling etc) created his own empire. He organised his own mafia of terrorists to coerce the local civilians. Maintained a private jail where he used to detain the opponents and poor people illegally for terms varying between 5 to 25 years. Average strength of prisoners in his jail used to be 150-200. He had his own court in Dera Bugti where he was the self appointed judge.

During court proceedings he used to award humiliating punishments like shaving off head and facial hair, making people stand naked in public and ordering them to walk on fire.

Some of the punishments awarded by him are:

Wadera Dhara Khan who refused to join Bugti¡¯s terrorist organisation was made to stand naked in public.

Wadera Mian Khan was made to walk on fire in September 2005, and also fined heavily. 25 other persons were also forced to walk on fire.

Due to inhuman treatment, Jamali s/o Gulla committed

suicide in Akbar Bugti¡¯s private jail.

57 persons were ordered to shave off their heads, facial hair, including eyebrows.

Defiance to Akbar Bugti¡¯s orders resulted in burning of six villages.

30 houses demolished by Akbar Bugti¡¯s terrorists.

Akbar Bugti used to impose fine of Rs. 5 lacs. 10 lashes and imprisonment in private jail for joining Frontier Corps/Army.

5 women indemnified as compensation in 2005.

300 Kalashnikovs/50,000 rounds received as compensation in 2005.

Wadera Muhammad Bakhsh Mundrani was fined Rupees 4 million and his brother Mian Khan Mundrani was made to walk on fire.

70 persons fined for various offences.

Approximately Rs 10 millions collected as fine from tribes every year. Heavy amounts collected as fines were spent for terrorism.

Murders ¡ª Since 1992, 60 persons have been murdered by Akbar Bugti and his terrorists. Some of the prominent cases are:

Amir Hamza Bugti who announced to contest elections against Akbar Bugti in 1988, was murdered by him during 1992.

Haji Han Bugti was murdered on October 10, 1993.

Muhammad Ibrahim Bugti was murdered in Karachi on March 4, 1993.

Asadullah Bugti was murdered in Karachi by Akbar Bugti¡¯s son Jamil Bugti who remains at large due to Akbar Bugti¡¯s influence.

Wadera Bashirullah Bugti, Aslam Bugti and Muhammad Ramzan were brutally murdered on March 15, 1993.

Ali Bugti and Sher Ali Bugti, relatives of Wadera Khan Muahmmad Bugti were murdered on July 11, 1993.

Ali Dost Bugti was murdered in Pat Feeder Canal area on July 23, 1993.

Munir Ahmed Bugti, Aziz Ali Bakhsh, Hassan Bugti and Nazar Ali Bugti were murdered in Karachi on July 14, 1993.

On December 13, 2005, Hazar s/o Peer Muhammad was killed by Akbar Bugti¡¯s terrorists, at Siah Koh.

Sabotage Activities ¡ª Countless incidents of sabotage have been committed by Akbar Bugti and his terrorists. Apprehended Bugti terrorists confessed their involvement in Karachi bomb blast of November 15, 2005. 339 individuals (including 110 security forces personnel) have been killed and 870 injured due to terrorists activities since January 2004. They targeted government installations, communication infrastructures and national assets. 45 attacks on railway installations carried out since January 2005. Gas Pipelines hit at 46 places since March 2005, 26 electric pylons were damaged.

Land Mine Incidents ¡ª A large number of land mines have been laid in Dera Bugti by Akbar Bugti¡¯s terrorists, in a blatant violation of human rights as per Geneva Conventions. So far 80 persons have lost their lives, 109 have lost their limbs and 21 vehicles have been damaged due to mine blasts.

Terrorist activities against law-enforcement agencies

In October 2005, Moharrar Thana Levies Rahim Bux was abducted and tortured for many days in Akbar Bugti¡¯s Fort for not paying salaries to the Bugti Levies, who remained absent from duty for many years.

In July 2005, terrorists abducted three Police personnel between Phuleji and Chattar. Later one constable was killed. Five policemen were also abducted from Shang Pir Soori Darbar.

In December 2003, Khuda Yar was abducted by terrorists near PPL gate. Akbar Bugti confessed to Ch Shujaat and Mushahid Hussain of his detention in his private jail.

Terrorist Activities of Khair Bakhsh Marri/Balaach Marri, Hayerbiar Marri, Ghazain Marri and Zamran Marri

Human rights violations ¡ª Human rights violations are a routine affair in district Kohlu where law of jungle prevails at the behest of Khair Bakhsh Marri and his sons.

Terrorist/sabotage activities ¡ª Since 2004, Marri terrorists killed four Frontier Corps (FC) personnel, three civilians, injured 15 FC personnel, three civilians.

Two FC personnel were abducted while many PTCL towers and electric pylons were damaged.

22 rocket attacks against railways perpetrated.

Abductions ¡ª During 2005, four persons were abducted for ransom on behest of Balaach Marri. . Land Grabbing ¡ª Illegally occupied agriculture land of Langhani/Loharani/Ghazini tribes in District Sibi.

Deprived Ayaz son of Mir Qaisar Khan Ghazini, (nephew of Khair Bakhsh Marri) of his agricultural land in Kahan and forced him to migrate to D G Khan.

Anti-development activities

In the mid 1990s electricity and mettled road from Kahan to Sibi was sanctioned but work could not be completed due to KB Marri¡¯s opposition.

Out of 47 schools, only one is functional at Kahan.

Rural health centers/basic health units are in personal use of Marri¡¯s terrorists.

30 police personnel posted to Kohlu were performing duties as guards with Balaach Marri to avoid his wrath.

Nine Seismic Surveys and construction of road Gwadar-Turbat-Ratto Dero and Fazal Chel-Maiwand-Talli are held up due to opposition of Khair Bakhsh Marri.

Hindrance in mega development projects:

Attack on Chinese at Gwadar on May 3, 2004 killing three Chinese, injuring five Chinese and two Pakistanis.

Attack on Chinese on October 15, 2005 near Talar Camp, injuring driver of the vehicle.

Anti-settlers drive: 27 incidents of explosions/bombs blasts, 11 processions/rallies, 30 meetings, nine incidents of distribution of pamphlets, three abductions and damage to property are on record.

Anti-coal mining activities: Chamalang coal mines have been a major irritant amongst sub-clans of Marri tribe and have remained closed due to coercion of Balaach.

During 2005, coalmines in Quetta, Harnai, Mach and Sibi areas were occupied by Marri terrorists and owners were forced to pay ¡®Bhatta¡¯.

Dilband Iron Ore/Bolan Mining Company destroyed in November 2005, rendering hundreds of labourers un-employed.

Terrorist activities by Akhtar Mengal and his associates

In August 2004, six persons (including five Army men) were murdered by Akhtar Mengal¡¯s gang.

There are number of FIRs against Akhtar Mengal for threatening the police officials eg in April 2005, Akhtar Jan Mengal and his terrorists manhandled Hub SHO for not releasing arrested BNP-M workers.

In October 2005, Akhtar Jan Mengal attempted forcible closure of shops in Wadh, with the assistance of his nephew Asad Mengal. Reportedly shopkeepers did not support BNP-M during the local government elections, during the incident one person was killed and three were injured.

Akhtar Jan Mengal in collaboration with Rehman Dacoit has been coordinating (Balochistan Liberation Army) BLA¡¯s activities. Rehman Dacoit was closely associated with Atta Irani who facilitates smuggling of arms/Ammunition for BLA.

Bomb Explosion: In 2004 139 incidents, 61 killed and 175 injured; in 2005 89 killed and 221 injured in 70 incidents; in 2006 169 dead and 535 hurt in 29 incidents.

Mine Blasts: In 2004, three killed and two injured in 17 incidents; in 2005 one injured in two incidents; in 2006 83 dead and 118 hurt in 79 incidents.

Rockets firing: In 2004, two killed and eight injured in 131 incidents; in 2005 three killed and 58 injured in 103 incidents; in 2006 four dead and 27 hurt in 138 incidents.

Attacks on security personnel: In 2004, 41 killed and 41 injured in 44 incidents; in 2005 40 killed and 218 injured in 40 incidents; in 2006 29 dead and 73 hurt in 255 incidents.

Terrorist attacks against railway infrastructure

24-1-05 3 kms from Sibi Railway track damaged

26-1-05 Mashkaf (Bolan) explosion occurred ¡ª no damage

27-1-05 Mashkaf (Bolan) 3 feet railway track destroyed

7-2-05 Paro Kunri (Bolan) 2 explosions occurred ¡ª no damage

7-2-05 Quetta explosion occurred ¡ª no damage

7-3-05 Mach explosion occurred near Railway Colony ¡ª no damage

15-3-05 Mach explosion occurred near railway station ¡ª no damage

18-3-05 Mach explosion in Chiltan Express one kilied and two injured

23-3-05 Railway station (Bolan) 1.5 feet railway track damaged

24-3-05 Mach detected explosive device

12-4-05 Chadarzai (Bolan) explosion in a bogy near railway station six persons injured

30-4-05 Bakhtiarabad Sibi damaged 2 feet railway track

28-5-05 Mach explosion at railway police station ¡ª no damage

23-6-05 Mastung damaged sleepers near Mastung

14-8-05 Mach destroyed railway track

29-10-05 Quetta Mustafaabad Railway bridge dislodged

23-12-05 Mastung 5 feet railway track damaged

28-12-05 Kandhkot destroyed railway line with explosive

31-12-05 Sibi blew 90 meters railway bridge

04-1-06 Noshki Railway bridge damaged

12-1-06 Quetta bomb exploded under railway track

15-1-06 Noshki railway bridge partially damaged

20-1-06 Mach Bomb exploded damaging track

20-1-06 Noshki bomb exploded under railway track Quetta-Zahidan section

26-1-06 Mach bomb exploded near Bungalzai Colony

16-2-06 Mach Bomb exploded near Mach railway station

27-2-06 Sibi Bomb exploded on railway track-engine and bogies derailed

8-4-06 Noshki bomb exploded near Quetta -Taftan railway track, damaging track

10-4-06 Noshki bomb exploded near Killi Zangian Abad, damaging the track

14-4-06 Sibi Bomb exploded under Railway bridge near Tandoori RS, damaging bridge

18-4-06 Jaffarabad miscreants removed fish plates from railway line at Sam Shakh railway, traffic remained suspended for 2 hours

21-4-06 Sibi bomb exploded under railway bridge near Babar Katch, damaging the bridge

22-4-06 Quetta bomb exploded under railway bridge in area Dasht, damaging 10 feet track/bridge

23-4-06 Sibi bomb exploded under Sibi-Harnai Railway track, damaging the track

25-4-06 Sibi bomb exploded under two railway bridges on Sibi-Harnai railway track ¡ª no damage

1-5-06 Noshki bomb exploded under railway track near Noshki, track damaged

31-5-06 Sibi bomb exploded, under railway track at Shoori, track damaged

6-06 Quetta bomb exploded under railway track at new Saryab damaging a sleeper of the railway track

5-6-06 DM Jamali bomb exploded under railway track at Shone, damaging 6 feet track

7-6-06 Sibi miscreants blew up a railway bridge

13-6-06 Noshki bomb exploded under railway track

15-6-06 Daibandin bomb exploded under railway track near FC Fort, track damaged

28-6-06 Quetta bomb exploded under railway track near Sariab

30-6-06 Noshki bomb exploded under railway track Qta-Taftan; damaging 3 meters track

1-7-06 Quetta three bombs exploded under railway track near Spizand, damaging track

TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST GAS PIPELINES

22 March 05 - Bolan. Overhead Crossing of 12¡å pipeline at Kumbri Nullah was damaged.

31 March 05 - Sibi. 20¡å submerged gas pipeline was rendered unusable. This incident was coordinated with the president¡¯s inauguration of gas supply to Kalat on 1 April 05.

13 August 05 - Sibi, 4¡å diameter distribution main valve was destroyed.

21 September 05 - Kalat. 6¡å diameter distribution main valve assembly damaged.

3 October 05 - Kolpur Pipeline, 20¡å & 12¡å submerged gas pipelines damaged. The incident synchronized with the visit of Indian foreign minister to Pakistan.

28 October 05 - Sibi. 12¡å pipeline exploded near Damboli.

1 November 05 - Guddu. Mari Gas Company¡¯s pipeline blown up.

27 December 05 - Sui. Gas pipeline near Well Number 60 destroyed.

3 January 06 - Dera Bugti, Gas pipeline to Uch Power Plant destroyed.

15 January 06 - Midwal. Gas pipeline in Midwal area damaged.

4 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Gas pipeline blown off near Loti Gas Field.

4 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Bugti terrorists fired 50 rockets on PPL fenced area, Sui, killing six (including two Army men) and injuring four. Damage also caused to residential infrastructure.

7 February 06 - Naseerabad. Gas pipeline blown up supplying gas to Uch Power Plant.

8 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Terrorists attacked PPL fenced area and Gate-9 with 10 rockets and small arms.

13 February 06-Dera Bugti. Terrorists blew up gas pipeline of Pir Koh Gas Field.

16 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Terrorists blew up Junction point of Pir Koh Gas Plant.

Night 16/17 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Terrorists damaged Well Number 24.

21 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Bugti terrorists blew up 14¡å Gas pipeline of Loti Gas Field.

21 February 06 - Dera Bugti. Well Number 23 damaged.

22 February 06 - Quetta. A bomb damaged gas pipeline at Eastern Bypass.

1 March 06-Dera Bugti. Bugti terrorists blew up 18¡å gas pipeline in area Pat Feeder.

5 March 06 - Quetta. A bomb damaged gas pipeline near Killi Shah Din Zai.

7 March O6 - Mastunq. Gas pipeline near Killi Bacha Abad, damaged.

9 March 06 - Dera Bugti. Bomb explosion damaged Well Number 12.

9 March 06 - Dera Bugti. Terrorists fired rockets at FC Camp Loti Gas Field.

20 March 06 - Dera Bugti. Bugti terrorists blew up 30¡å gas pipeline, leading to the Punjab.

21 March 06-Dera Bugti. Terrorists engaged Loti Gas Field with rockets and damaged it.

12 April 06 - Sui/Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up 18¡å Loti Field gas pipeline disrupting supply to Pir Koh Purification Plant.

18 April 06 - Mastunq. Terrorists exploded gas pipeline near Killi Muhammad Hassani, damaging gas pipeline and disrupting gas supply to Kalat.

28 April 06 - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up main gas pipeline, Loti Gas field, disrupting gas supply to Dera Bugti.

5 May 06 - Kalat. Fararis exploded old Sui Gas office, damaging 2¡å gas pipeline.

17 May - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up a connecting pipeline of well no 25 of Sui Gas Field in Bugti Colony.

18 May-Sui/Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded main gas pipeline from Sui to Punjab.

19 May-Sui/Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded 16¡å pipeline suspending gas supply to parts of Sindh and Punjab.

24 May - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded a gas pipeline near PPL Gate 4, Bugti Colony.

26 May - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded a Gas pipeline near Tehsil Bazaar Sui, pipeline caught fire burning 60-65 nearby wooden/canvas stalls/cabin.

27 May-Sui/Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded main gas pipeline in area Pez Bogi, causing minor damage to pipeline.

2 June - Sui/Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded a gas pipeline of well No 10 at Pir Koh Gas Field.

3/4 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis exploded 16¡å gas pipeline connecting Well No 17 of Loti Gas Field damaging gas pipeline.

6 June-Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up 16¡å dia gas pipeline of wells, 12, 22, 23, 50, 52 and 57 East of Sui.

10 June-Quetta. Bugti Fararis exploded 16¡å gas pipeline near Kolpur, disrupting gas supply to Quetta, Kuchlak, Pishin and Mastung.

10 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up 16¡å gas pipeline of Well no 14, Loti Gas Field.

Night 24/25 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up an 18¡å gas pipeline in Loti More area, suspending gas supply to Dera Bugti Town,

27 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up 2 gas pipelines of Pir Koh Gas Plant with explosion in area Bahar Colony.

27 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Fararis blew up gas pipeline East of Sui, reducing pressure in Compressor Plant.

28 June - Sui/ Dera Bugti. Bugti Ferrairs blew up 20¡å gas pipeline 10 kilometres South of Sui Gas Field, partially disrupting gas supply to areas of Sindh.

Damage to electricity transmission system/pylons

Barkhan -22 December 05. Bomb damaged electric pylon near Fort Munro.

Barkhan - 22 December 05. Electric pylons blown up near Kohlu district.

Khuzdar - 26 December 05, Pylon damaged by explosive in vicinity of Baghbana Koork.

Bolan - 2 January 06. Pylon blown up near Sibi Nani.

Jaffarabad - 4 January 06. Bomb damaged electric pylons near village Bhund.

Kohlu - 5 January 06.2 Electric pylons destroyed in area Babar Tuk, Kohlu.

Naseerabad - 5 January 06. 2 Pylons damaged near village Goth Jalal Khan.

Sibi-9 January 06. Pylon damaged near Nari railway station.

Barkhan-16 January 06. Bomb damaged D G Khan-Rakhni power transmission line.

Kalat-16 January 06. Main power transmission damaged near Astan-e-Dastgir.

Barkhan -12 February 06. Electric pylon blown up near Rakhni.

Jaffarabad -15 February 06. 3 Electric pylons damaged near Sohbatpur.

Sibi -13 March 06. two Electric pylons damaged near Bibi Nani.

Mach-16 March 06. Four Bombs exploded under two electric pylons near Bibi Nani.

Sibi-22 March 06.2 Electric pylons damaged near Babar Kach, Harnai.

Bolan - 31 March 06. Four Bombs exploded near Mach disrupting supply to town.

Rajanpur-20 April 06.five Electric pylons damaged in area Goth Mazari.

Rajanpur - Night 2/3 May 06. three Electric pylons destroyed in Goth Mazari.

Kohlu - Night 10/11 May 06. A bomb exploded under electric pylon near Khutta Chowki.

Mastung - 15 May 06. 3 Electric pylons of Mastung - Quetta power transmission line destroyed.

Barkhan-2 June 06. Miscreants blew up a pylon disrupting electricity supply to Kohlu.

Quetta - 6 June 06. A bomb exploded under two pylons in Dashat Area, damaging pylons.

Sibi - 16 June 06. A bomb explosion damaged a pylon, in Sibi.

Sui/Dera Bugti - 22 June 06. two Pylons in Pez Bogi area damaged.

Naseerabad -27 June.06. A pylon near Village Hassan destroyed. Kohlu - 4 July 06. A bomb exploded under pylons in Killi Lasezai.

This year a total of 21 vehicles were attacked in which 80 people were killed and 109 injured.

Now soon it¡¯ll be the turn of other traitors to die like dogs.

Re: # 126

Thank you. Why dont you add me on h_ellahi@hotmail.com?

Thanks.

#131 by nasah

What the eff are you talking about?

I mean Rozaiba`s article not Zeemax`s...:)

sorry folks -- post #129 was supposed to be posted on the forum ``Hinduism as a continuousl religion`` -- zeemax your article is not flawed fatally or otherwise btw.

``Hinduism is more a culture than a religion. To interpret it as a religion alone would be fatally flawed fundamentally``

what an original statement! -- perhaps you haven`t heard that -- ``Islam is more a culture than a religion`` -- ``Judaism is more a culture than a religion`` -- ``Christianity is more a culture than a religion`` -- Buddhism is more a culture than a religion`` -- ``Zoroastrianism is more a culture than a religion``......

do these high fluting claims by their respective adherents -- make them any better -- I don`t think so. They all have been more than one time in their recent history have been -- gutter religions -- including Hinduism.

``To interpret (them) as a religion alone would be fatally flawed fundamentally`` -- why? -- why calling a spade a spade is flawed? -- ``religion alone`` -- uncultured OR cultured -- ``would be (is) fatally flawed fundamentally`` -- especially of the fundamentally kind....

and Hinduism is no exception......

this article is flawed -- not `fatally flawed` of course -- the oldest pagan religion that continuously has been a pagan religion for 5000 years -- is not Hinduism -- but Judaism.... he fountainhead of two more pagan religions

Hinduism is more a culture than a religion. To interpret it as a religion alone would be fatally flawed fundamentally. It does not have schools for religious scholars who then go out and practise it in temples spread across towns and cities. Nor is there any hierarchy of priests. A hindu need not worship at a given time or day (or at all).It can be called the least ``organized`` of all religions. The amount of leeway available to individuals is phenomenal.

And of course.. In 2006, the words of the Nobel laureate (Physics) Dr. Richard Feynman (in ``surely...``) would be more valid when he talks of jewish scholars :

``Here they are,slowly coming to life, only to better interpret the Talmud. Imagine ! In modern times like these, guys are studying to go into society to be a Rabbi-- and the only way they think that science might be interesting is because their ancient, provincial, medieval problems are being confounded slightly by some new phenomenon``.

These can be applied to madarsas, seminaries and other places, a certain percentgage of which turn out religious zealots & professional practitioners. Hinduism on the other hand is plagued by its own evils, some of them much much worse, almost to the point of being intolerable.

The medieval texts cannot continue to govern rational minds (large numbers of which exist in all societies). Hence, Any attempts to foist ``modernised versions`` of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity cannot but fail. Increasing importance of economic and cultural factors would push religion as the defining identity for an individual to the margin.

teshah mian,

Actually there is a distinction between ``National language`` and ``state language``. It was supposed to be the state language and Jinnah mentioned as a ``state language`` for communication or ``Rabita`` as you say between different federating units of Pakistan. In the same speech he also promised the preservation and propagation of Bengali as a provincial language ...

In any event... the language issue was solved in 1956. The real reason Bengalis separated was the LACK of a CONSTITUTIONAL PROCESS... and everything else boiled down to this...
Had Fatima Jinnah, who won a large following in East Pakistan, been allowed to win and become the president ... it was certain that erstwhile Pakistan would have still been together...

haroonellahi:109
I have not forgotten your query, I am quite busy these days & will write later..

I appreciate your interest in these matters and look forward to see the new generation with a
mind not shackled by colonial-chains.

I think the Malaysian model is possible with the current Pakistani constitution in its present form... Pakistani constitution, even in its present form, is actually better than the Malaysian constitution.. so its implementation and evolution can eventually satisfy a lot of people on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Re: # 116

There can be a simpler solution to this Mullah-gardi.

Taking into account the fact that the Mullah were as a class against the Pakistan movement and Hakeemul-Ummat Allama Iqbal had declared their deen as `Dee-e- Fassaad` why not declare them as `Non-Muslim` like Ahmadies. This is perhaps the only solution short of their Algeria type liquidation.

Re: # 109

Urdu, a national language? It is `anti-national` language as it resulted in break-up of Pakistan due mainly to ill-advised insistence of Jinnah on calling it a national language. It is at the most a good `Raabita` language for sub-continental use as is the English for international use.

Do you think Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, Balochi, which constitute mother tongues of at least of 90% of Pakistanies are not national languages? Why give Urdu, a `Bhayya` language, a political hegemony at the cost of real national languages of Pakistan?

The Swedish Constitution--an astonishingly humane document! ..

a possible model for a future pakistan?

---

*when* its citizens are all educated to a decent
level.

in theory i personally have absolutely nothing against pakistan having free and fair elections--indeed i would welcome them. talking of sweden, i think it is very close to an ideal
islamic society in its social security aspects--i.e. the way the govt looks after the people from birth to death and the free education and free healthcare for all; i have nothing at all against trying to emulate these aspects. indeed i wish my country, the UK, would also be more like sweden and stop trying to be like the US...

then again, sweden keeps itself to itself and is quite a homogenous society and the swedes are very proud and protective of their own culture and don`t ape others. unlike the paki rulers...

imagine if we have 100% free and fair elections and a swiss style democracy in pakistan...and then imagine that the islamic parties won those elections...what would the secularists on here do then? would they accept the results. I DOUBT IT.

the reason the powers that be won`t allow pakistan to be like sweden is because any time free elections are held most people in muslim countries will vote for islamic parties...

aslam, you raise a very interesting point about the u.s. government`s treatment of its domestic opponents especially in the early part of its history. there was this very famous incident known as the pullman strike when uncle sam sent in the army to brake up this strike. army action resulted in the death of 13 people. eugene debs, the most famous socialist leader in the u.s. spents years in jail for his labour and anti-war activity. u.s. supreme court, surprise surprise, upheld his detention. during his defence, debs made this well remembered statement:

``Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.``

as far as honest abe is concerned, we know what he did when southerners rose in defence of their ``economic resources``. among other things, lincoln sent sherman to atlanta who burnt the whole city down.

Re: # 116
thanks for reply.
i personally think turkey`s record is better in tolerating islamic party, than US with regard to communist and even socialist party, both of which were hounded out of existence, many people were imprisoned on mere suspicion of belonging to them.

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, which we hope and believe is to liberate the world.”
Abraham Lincoln:

you can turn that question around and ask should those party that dont believe in democracy be allowed to be a part of the democratic process?

in pakistan mullahs have behaved reasonably well. they accepted the supreme court`s decision when supreme court declared the hasba bill passed by sarhad assembly as unconstitutional. otoh mullahs are threatening to resign if national assembly amends the hudood ordinance even though there is a clear majority in favour of amendment. i think the best approach for pak is to allow mullahs to be a part of the system and at the same time, govt should steal their thunder by not implementing the radical secularist agenda as advocated by this website. also the govt should continue to highlight mullah hypocricy at every opportunity. pakistanis are smart and can see through the mullah charade.

the other approach is to launch a jihad against the mullahs which is what algeria did after radical mullahs won the election. the cost of this was bloody however with an estimated 100,000 people killed. appears now that radical mullahs have finally been defeated. thankfully, pakistani government does not have to make this choice.

Re: # 114
what is your opinion if a country places restriction on a political party is it a democracy?

generally speaking, the more democracy you have in the islamic world, the more mullah islam you have in the islamic world. in countries as diverse as egypt, turkey, iran, malaysia and indonesia, the power of mullahs has increased after elections. after nearly 80 years of forced secularism by the turkish army, the turkish electorate in the first open election voted for an islamic party that nearly passed a bill that imposed death for adultery. the only reason this bill was not passed was due to pressure by e.u. this same turkish party is also putting restrictions on sharaab by establishing sharaab free zones and by increasing taxes on sharaab.

in iran, the secular government of shah was overthrown by an alliance of leftist forces and the mullahs. as is their want, mullahs showed their true colours after the revolution by locking up their erstwhile allies in jail or worse - by murdering them. people here have also been using malaysia as an example of a tolerant society. that tolerance however is reserved for minorities. muslim malays have to play by different rules:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115757444080555464-search.html?KEYWORDS=malaysia&COLLECTION=wsjie/6month

...Malays could not renounce Islam at all, the court argued, because they were defined by the federal constitution to be persons of the Islamic faith.

...In 2005, the country`s federal court dismissed habeas corpus applications by four former Muslims who were sentenced by the Shariah Court to three years in jail for wrongly
attempting to leave Islam...``

indonesia is another country where power of mullahs has grown after free and fair elections. in the last elections, staunchly islamic parties won 15% of the seats and are now forcing parliament to adapt all kinds of crazy agendas including bills that regulate the size of skirts.

compared to most muslim countries, the experience of pakistan has been a little different. mullahs in pak have never gotten the kind of support they have received in most other muslim countries. one reason for that is the army and most political parties have not shoved secularism down people`s throat although parties have turned to islam when they are in trouble example bhutto in `77 and ns in `98.

despite the freedom gora-lovers enjoy in pak compared to most islamic countries, gora-lovers are still not satisfied and wont be until pakistan turns into sweden. thats why they portray likes of bugtis as heroes because gora lovers unlike the hizbullah are khussies and therefore unable to fight their own fight.

Friends,
All of you are beating around the bush - making love to the navel, instead of focusing your efforts on the real issue - breaking down the provinces into several smaller ones that are more manageable and less prone to provincial hegemony.

The US has fifty states and the purpose is not to torture young students by having them memorize the 50 state names and associated capitals. In fact, California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Illinois are too populous for the good of the rest of the country. If it were not for tradition, local jingoism, and the stupid Electoral College system that makes a farce out of democracy, the US would consists of a hundred equally sized boxes resembling South Dakota.

Even India has managed to take the original provinces and decompose them into smaller, harmless dens of local government and democracy. Just witness what they did to their smaller portion called East Punjab. They trisected it into Himachal, Haryana, and rump Punjab. Even UP got divided as did Bihar. Can you imagine if India consisted of five or six huge provinces aligned on linguistic and ethnic lines? The Hindi-speaking monster would gobble up the country`s power, resources, and attention by its sheer demographic and geographical dominance.

So, let`s do the sensible thing and break Punjab into four lovely provinces (Potohar, Saraikia, Ranjitia, and Cholistan). Sind can become New Hindustan, Bhuttostan, and Khasipur. Similarly Baluchistan and NWFP can be comprised of three smaller provinces each. Of course, we need to separate Northern Areas from NWFP and get rid of this FATA nonsense.

This is my last post on this suggestion and if Pakis don`t act quickly, I am going to concentrate on more important issues, such as preservation of macaca habitats. :)

{Let us never again find comfort with national arrogance, pride or proclaim ignorance over the possible tragedies that may unfold. The restoration of the 1973 Constitution which provides provincial autonomy is the only way out for a united Pakistan! }

One good idea would be to have a new constitution with the following basic (and unalterable features):

1. Citizens rights (especially w r t land alienation) & duties -- well defined.
2. Equality for all and special rights/privileges for minorities (even ahmediyas).
3. Judicial Independent judiciary.
4. Checks & Balances between judiciary and executive/ legislature.
5. Islamic social laws.
6. No scope for army rule at all.
7. Autonomy for costituent provinces- well defined.

Constitutions of UK (administrative history), India (Geographical proximity) and Iran (social laws) can provide excellent material to incorporate in the new constitution.

Equally important would be inculcation of tolerance and eradication of hatred from minds of future generations.

And no, it is not a pipe dream......

``USA KICKED OUT the masters.
They did not hem & haw beg or performed
circus in the streets (Mahagaandoo) or theatrics
in the assemblies or courts ( Jinnah). The true rebels,
true fighters, true enemies & HATERS of being
the SUBJUGATED one do this
They KILL, FIGHT & CHASE the enemy out

and having massacred& chased the enemy out then
do the following things:

1. Go to France for their new constituition
2. Never play cricket
3. Drink coffee, not tea
4. Drive on the right side, not left
5. Light switches opposite: Up is ``on``
6. Write ``wrong`` english; are proud of it
7. Still use FPS system when to oppose Europe
8. Play ``football`` & not ``soccer``
9. Do not adopt monarchy or parliament
10. Give up fish & chips......................
...............and a lot more a lot more a lot more. ``



Ha ha...

This is the funniest piece of crap I have read...

a- They speak ENGLISH. ENGLISH. Yes thats right English.

b- They follow English Jurisprudence, English Criminal and English Contract and English Company Law.

c- The first International Cricket Match was between USA and Canada in 1840s.

d- The rest is irrelevant...

On a different wavelength, David fought Goliath not with a spear or a sword, he fought him with a sling shot.

He was offered a sword, shield ,and spear by the Israelites but he refused and wanted to fight with his own weapon.

The example from this is that us Muslims do not need to look at the West and emulate the Americans and Europeans to solve our problems but instead we need to look for domestic solutions to fight the issues of our time.

Echooboom, what are your views on Jinnah?


Reviving a document whose writer was hanged by the armed forces of this country does not seem to suggest a very promising remedy for the problems facing this federation.

A fresh breeze of air is required in the political mechanisms of this country, which calls for the genesis of a new constitution and a new set of systems.

The country must be rearranged to reflect the ideals of Jinnah, the founding father, along with the consideration of the Islamic majority, whose recommendations and ideas for a state are paramount in order to create a functioning paradigm for this republic.

For all of this to be achieved, a new constitutional convention should be called upon.

We could pass the 1973 constitution with an adjustment here and there, but as long as it has been passed and signed by the dons of power today I think it will carry much more legitimacy.

Politicans such as Nawaz Shareef, Benazir Bhutto, Musharraf, Altaf Hussein, feudalists such as the Bugtis and Mazaris, amongst the industrialist politicians like Jehangir Tareen and Humuyan Akhtar along with the religious right can all sit down and create a new constitution for this country.

Urdu is our national language and it must be given more importance. I have seen people in Lahore getting admission into Oxford, Stanford, Princeton, Columbia, Wharton and Cornell who can not read or write their mother tongue. Reading or writting is a totally different thing, counting from 1-100 is absent from our minds today.

Urdu must be made into the language of the Supreme Court, all National Assembly proceedings must be done in Urdu.

English should be made into a twin national language of Pakistan.

If RSS in Hindustan can decide to start teaching English to all their khaki clad boys from grade 1-12 in their educational institutions (the RSS being renound for burning gift shops for selling christmas and valentine related items, burning churches and raping nuns, rejecting importation of Christian values), then I think we can also start making our people billingual by being fluent in Urdu and English. The world is becoming highly competative and I imagine a Pakistan where 150 million people can read, write and speak Urdu and English properly. This will be the Pakistan, which will make great strides in the world of I.T, industry, trade, and become into a hub of education in the future.

This is, of course, a vision and an ideal.

Malaysia is a great Islamic country with Islamic values and has transformed into a liberal democracy with a relatively free press. We too should aspire to transform ourselves.

``The need of the hour, politically speaking, in Pakistan is not a reinstatement of constitutionalism but one of political reconciliation between Islamabad and its federating provinces.``

Feroz, from every nationalist leader I`ve heard talk on TV - from Palejo to Bizenjo etc. - they all want the Constitution of 1973 properly implemented.

So the political reconciliation from those most against central rule and the most nationalist of politicians is the restoration of the constitution. So isn`t that then the need of the hour?

Feroz wrote:

``The only, viable, option left is for Pakistan to evolve and follow a political process that secures the interests of all the major power stake holders in Pakistan and through a political and legislative process, remove the offending amendments and seeks to ``restore`` the spirit of the 1973 document.``

The constitution does secure everyone`s interests. That`s why EVERY political entity supports it - except the Army.

For everything you need a starting point. A basic framework. Outlining how to legislate. outlining roles. Duties. and processes for resoloving disputs. Doesn`t cover everything, but the basics at least. I do not think the 73 constitution is ideal at all. But everyone agrees to it as the starting point for resolving present and future conflicts and disagreements.

The current rulers are a stumbling block to this.

So I don`t see the point of your post. When we argue for the constitution to be supreme, we are arguing for the institutions of government to be allowed to work independently so that all the entities in Pakistan can resolve their disputes.


Bulleya:

Other than Naqshbandi and echoboom, everone here has said they`re for a system and are willing to put aside their idealogies. So your conclusion that we`re are pushing out ideologies is off-the-mark. The Khakis are the only entity refusing to want a system. They are the central reason for the current quagmire.

With the Islamists running wild on this topic I cannot think of liberals managing to secularize the Pakistani constitution.

I think the mullahs are going to run the Pakistan for and the first victims are going to be those who support secularism because they would be summarily executed for apostasy................rest of the moderates would be forced to confine themselves within their houses and shall fear prosecution by the sharia courts............unless the secularists retaliate and start tightening the noose around these Islamists I think Pakistan is going to be in a state of confused existence for a long time.............and the benefit of this confusion would be reaped by the mullahs and the military....... the tragedy of Pakistan is that there are few ready to fight the Islamists at the ideological level and generally disinclined to expose these mullahs..................

Echoboom sahib,

Re: 104

Great piece of advice to Manto mian, written of course in chaste English.

Rgds


PS: What does the word (Mahagaandoo) mean, couldn`t locate it in the Oxford English Dictionary.

Mantolives Slave:
This is not going through your thick westoxicated skull.
Until and unless ALL official work is done in URDU
so that your servant`s son gets a chance to become your
son`s superior, unless non-anglo dress is
preferred promoted and respected more
than that of a western funeral director or
waiter, and burger-hegemony
& coca-colonisation is crushed..
......you are NOT in a position to even be called a ``parRhha-Likhhaa``.

ParRhha-Likhha`` means having a seething Hatred
for those who profess to have
kicked out their masters...but as a
true munaafiquoon they lament that the master left.

USA KICKED OUT the masters.
They did not hem & haw beg or performed
circus in the streets (Mahagaandoo) or theatrics
in the assemblies or courts ( Jinnah). The true rebels,
true fighters, true enemies & HATERS of being
the SUBJUGATED one do this
They KILL, FIGHT & CHASE the enemy out

and having massacred& chased the enemy out then
do the following things:

1. Go to France for their new constituition
2. Never play cricket
3. Drink coffee, not tea
4. Drive on the right side, not left
5. Light switches opposite: Up is ``on``
6. Write ``wrong`` english; are proud of it
7. Still use FPS system when to oppose Europe
8. Play ``football`` & not ``soccer``
9. Do not adopt monarchy or parliament
10. Give up fish & chips......................
...............and a lot more a lot more a lot more.

again Until & unless the slavelands are not taught
to develop an intense & seething HATRED for
the westoxicated mindset & as a corrollary develop
love & respect for the most learned in the society
(the ULEMA) you guys will continue to wallow in
slavemarshes--and ZALEELED verywhere & ALL the
time: KNOWING english will not save you no matter how
fair & baboonish you gromm yourself into.




ENCORE:from 99[excerpt]..seems you missed it in
your usual westoxicated stupor.

..........
``While we just saw how two great muslim nations ,
with Islam as the foundation stone of their constituition
and a deep deep love for their own languages , culture,
and religion..and completely free of the secularoon
mindset..here is another big-little ISLAMIC nation where
sharia is fully enforced & yet the secularoons & kuffaars
are ALLOWED & tolerated even when they put up their KanjarR-pUns. ``
..................................``

and now this to rub salt into your wounds:
In a speech at his Party`s annual assembly last week,
Prime
Minister Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia gave

one of his notorious diatribes, touching
on anti-Western,
anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic themes.
Party officials at the assembly handed out copies of
The International Jew, the anti-Semitic
tract written by Henry Ford (yes, the
Henry Ford – though he later

renounced it),

which contains – guess what? –
a version of the Protocols.
To the best of our knowledge, no Western leader
has criticized either the speech or the reading matter
provided.

Former New York Mayor Rudi Giuliani was
once again at the right place at the right time
doing the right thing this week as he led the US
delegation to an international
conference on anti-Semitism.
That such a conference took place at
all is a very good sign. That many of the nations
participated unwillingly is not so good.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dear Echo mian...

I have no problem with having ``Islamic states`` ala Malaysia, UAE and Qattar... but given the high levels of freedom and open ``Americanised`` society that these three states display I would imagine that you would.

Re: rozaiba

First of all, definitions in a dictionary have no meaning in the real world. :)

Regardless of the clarity of the dictionary definition, which you quoted, the situation in Pakistan is slightly more complicated than simply wishing upon a constitution and hoping that it will solve the problems if and only if, it is framed according to a particular dictionary definition. As to my particular definition of a constitution, I have no idee fixe definition of a constitution because constitution is not an objective document; it is a highly subjective document that draws its definition from the consent of parties that might have created it. Hence, it is very problematic and a highly dangerous precedent to equate constitutionalism according to a given ``cookie cutter`` definition. A Pakistani constitution cannot be judged or compared with an American one or for that matter an Indian or an Afghan constitution. Granted, the basic definition might apply to all, but the manner in which that ``definition`` is framed and agreed upon may vary according to the individual realities of the nations mentioned and upon the understandings of the people involved and what they felt was the utility of the constitution.

In Pakistan, as HP has stated, the process of political constitutionalism has been a power football match between the powers of the prime minister and the president. Also, the 1973 constitution has been, amongst Pakistan’s previous constitutions, the most fair and the most just, but the problem in Pakistan has not been the lack of a constitutional implementation but rather the refusal of the political will to abide by the terms and limitations of the constitution. Therefore, the constitutional problem in Pakistan is a result of a political structural defect than it is simply an absence of a constitution. A constitution ensures a mode of power sharing within a nation not on the basis of existing as a political document but on the basis of a consensus. In Pakistan, we can have a constitution and still have no constitutional power sharing arrangements because constitutionalism is a political slogan in Pakistan and when it comes to the power politics of the nation; the constitutional implementation is always placed under narrow political priorities.

This is not to deny the obvious and state the impracticality of having a constitutional process in Pakistan. The constitutional problem in Pakistan is that the 1973 document does not address the modern day realities of the nation and with the constitution having been amended so many times, the nature of the document does not reflect the rights of the federating units in Pakistan as much as it showcases the differences in how the power is to be shared in Pakistan. Consequently, reviving the 1973 constitution will not amount to much unless the basic nature and intent of how political power will be distributed in Pakistan is defined coherently; agreed upon fairly and accepted consensually. There are two options on how to deal with this problem; one is to scrap the 1973 constitution and start all over again and the second one is to remove all the amendments to it, which have been added to since its inception in 1973. Both options offer more of a dilemma than they offer a remedy to Pakistan’s political problems.

The only, viable, option left is for Pakistan to evolve and follow a political process that secures the interests of all the major power stake holders in Pakistan and through a political and legislative process, remove the offending amendments and seeks to ``restore`` the spirit of the 1973 document. This means that we have to start with a flawed constitution realizing the flaws in it and understanding that it is not a perfect document, but seeking and undertaking steps to improve its flaws over a period of time. This means that we have to place emphasis on the procedures of politics in Pakistan and seek to reinforce the ideas of political institutionalism in Pakistani politics. Constitutionalism in Pakistan will happen when there is a strong tradition of political plurality in Pakistan but constitutionalism will not happen in Pakistan by simply placing one’s faith in a document.

The need of the hour, politically speaking, in Pakistan is not a reinstatement of constitutionalism but one of political reconciliation between Islamabad and its federating provinces. One of the reasons, why East Pakistan separated was not a lack of constitutional framework or adherence to it but a failure to reconcile the existing political differences and even the existence of a constitutional rubric in 1971 did not help and it will also not help in 2006. Thus, it would be foolish and naive to believe that the political differences in Pakistan can be solved constitutionally without a meaningful political reconciliation. Political reconciliation, when it happens in Pakistan, will create a political consensus upon which a new ``social contract`` based upon the intent of the 1973 constitution can be re-created and this will help in the process of normalizing Pakistani politics into a constitutional mode of power sharing that is agreed upon by all the stake holders in Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to achieve a comfortable level of political consensus before it can even hope to have some semblance of constitutionalism in the nation. Constitutional politics in Pakistan is the final destination in the political evolution of this nation, but there are many steps to take before we can reach the level of political discourse you have recommended in your article. The suggestion that a constitution will solve the nation’s problems without a political reconciliation having occurred first, would be the same as placing the cart before the horse and then blaming the horse for being ineffective and not pulling the cart forward!

Ciao

Re: # 79

Rozaiba

But what they could not touch is the `Fatwa` in the Constitution which declared certain citizens of the Pakland as `Na-Pak` Non-Muslims. So the real constitution which boils down to `Khuda ki khudai khatam, Nabi ki nabuwwat khatam, Insan ki insaniat khatam, Mullah ki Mullah-gardi Zinda-baad, Painda-baad` remained ever intact.

While we just saw how two great muslim nations , with Islam as the foundation stone of their constituition and a deep deep love for their own languages , culture, and religion..and completely free of the secularoon mindset..here is another big-little ISLAMIC nation where sharia is fully enforced & yet the secularoons & kuffaars are ALLOWED & tolerated even when they put up their KanjarR-pUns.

and that tiny little Sharia-enforcing GREAT nation is Qatar!

They conduct ALL their business at home in , what else, Arabie! Only for International business they resort to farangi ways because it is in their OWN interest & to their OWN advantage.

They show pride in their own language, dress, food & their harems. No westoxicated nation this except where 70% of its population is of outsiders...& the outsiders , at least some of them are Muflisoon, Faquiroons, & begaroons llike Musharraf & Shaukat Aziz...Jobbers!

Anything for a secure job and an ability to kick slap & show ``status`` to the naukar`s child or to screw the subordinate Afeesurs wife & daughter.

Such is the ``advanced`` ``maadren`` lifestyle of the secularoon , liberaloon, munaafiquoons in the SLAVELAND.

Would those in the OFFENCE-Kaaloanees consider sending their offspring to Qatar, Malaysia or Iran for higher education. To learn from the little engines that could?

Or everybody there wants to be Chief & not Indian or Paki?--the curse of the Ba Ba Blacksheep school system.


READ & laugh or cry.

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Sep 7th 2006 | CAIRO
From The Economist print edition

A Gulf state asserts itself in the world



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Peace & Pluralism