It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

kaalchakra (#360),

Yes, indeed … people will read what they want to read. And like everyone else, Ahmadi-Muslims are no exception either.

Given our own biases, we must allow ourselves as well as others to peacefully practice what we, or they cherish. In this regard I have objected to coercion in matters of faith. Such coercion is sub-human, beneath dignity, and totally rejected by Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Failure to accept rights of others is a path to overzealousness and bigotry. Such bigotry hurts those foremost who harbor it. This, I believe, is the recipe ummah has lost, that it must regain in order to better itself and their communities.

Re: sattar2

I understand your position that only hadith that is consistent with Quran must be accepted.

But this does raise a valid question. How to interpret the Quran in the first place? Can`t use any Hadith for that as that would be circular logic.

abu_safwaan (#357),

You are confusing the issue.

Actually I am quite “hot” on ahadith, but realize that not all recorded ahadith are fully reliable. In case of conflict I give preference to Quran, and accept possibility of errors in recorded ahdith. Perhaps that’s the difference between you and me.

If you read my posts, you’ll see that I raised the issue of corruption of Islam at the hands of ullema. It seems that profound and peaceful message of Islam, the teachings of our dear Prophet (pbuh) have been misrepresented by ullema for political gains.

Unable to respond in a reasonable manner, Urstruly criticized beliefs of Ahmadi-Muslims instead. He tried to validate odd-ball recorded ahadith to justify extremism. However closer scrutiny of ahadith negated his views. He then raised the “baghi” issue to obfuscate things further. But I have largely ignored this silliness of his. He (and perhaps another member) has engaged in diversion and mudslinging, while ignoring the painful truth about ullema’s Islam. You are only furthering this insanity.

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Look, views of Ahmadi-Muslims is a separate discussion. We may agree or disagree, but we must maintain dignity and thoughtfulness in our discourse. Islam grants people freedom of faith, without coercion. Since the Ahmadi issue was raised, I cited the example of their declaration as non-Muslims to illustrate the point of distortion of Islam.

As I pointed out, it is one thing to consider a person non-Muslim. However, making it illegal for this person to practice Islam is beneath dignity. Sadly enough, this is what the ullema have done. It says nothing about Ahmadis … but about the character and views of the ullema.

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Ummah needs to focus on views of their own scholars who are preaching fanaticism. I cited Maudooi to illustrate this point. It is counterproductive and dangerous for ummah to sweep under the rug such teachings while claiming that Islam is the religion of peace and justice.

These hateful teachings have laid foundations for extremism that infests ummah in this day and age. Apparently suicide bombings are a valid form of jihad.

No, this is not Islam that was given to us by dear Prophet (pbuh), Mercy for the mankind. Ummah today is at crossroads that defines its own soul, essence of mainstream Islam. It is futile to engage in fruitless discussions at such critical times. Your own focus should be Maudoodi, and not Ahmadis, for example.

If you have sincere questions about my faith in Islam, we can discuss it later. This is a different forum altogether. I hope you can appreciate this …

``Quran and hadith states.....``

Abu bhai and sattar, people read what they want to read. You will find that it is nearly impossible to convince each other about the meaning of words.

Can`t some other means be found for bridging this difference amicably?

Re: # 338

Please forgive the intrusion. I realise that your comments were directed to another; however, I am interested in your question...

[````The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone`s death or on account of anyone`s birth.````]

Did they or did they not (the people that witnessed the eclipse) believe in the Prophet and his teachings? In other words, were they his followers or his enemies?

I ask because if they did believe in the Prophet and his teachings then the solar eclipse would have been seen by them as a sign of the power of the Prophet.

If, on the other hand, they didn`t believe in the Prophet and his teachings then they would have seen the eclipse as a sign `that he got what he deserved`; perhaps the death of his son was seen as an admonishment of the Prophet and his teachings.

Either way; let’s assume that he spoke the words in response to the suggestion that the two incidents, that is, the death of his son and the solar eclipse, were related.

What was he trying to say to these people?

As examples of possible meanings, and all the while assuming that his words were not altered in translation:

Explanation 1

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Neither the sun nor the moon outweigh or exceed in importance the life of one man.

Explanation 2

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Both the sun and the moon will endure beyond the life of man.

Explanation 3

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Man is of little importance compared to the sun and the moon.

Explantion 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, …………………………………

Ad infinitum!!!!

One can neither accept nor reject without a true understanding of what the Prophet was trying to say.

Re: # 350


Well, aren`t you perceptive!!!

I`m glad we have something in common!!!

Re: # 356

ahhaa..if Quran and ahadiths (which a moment ago u werent 2 hot about) support the continuation of prophethood then whats stopping u to share it with the rest of us, share the love man, we are dying to be overwhelmed with ur and mirza`s wisdom here, why r u running away ..proove the validity of ur prpohet, why is that so hard. Qadiyaniyat was not an issue on this board till u start harping how pakistanis have declared Qadiyanis as non-muslim, i said its because they are non-muslims, u said they arent because Quran and hadith states that Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani is on his way to shower us with his wisodm, show it to us n u`ll be home-free, stop dancing around and make mirza proud by showing to us the proof of his prophethood.

abu-safawaan (#355),

The issue I have raised is of corruption of Islam at the hands of ullema. Read my post #307, 353, and 354 as examples. Beliefs of Ahmadi-Muslims are not the issue here.

Your argument would have validity if Ahmadi-Muslims preached violence. You can cite some references, anecdotes if that is the case. If not, take a hike.

You may think Mirza Sahib is a fake. Non-Muslims think that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a fake. My view is that Quran, as well as ahadith, support continuation of prophethood. Now, we can go in circles over this, but that would be idiotic … since this is not the forum for such a discussion. Sorry to disappoint you …

A person with integrity would take an issue with fanaticism preached by Maudoodis … something which obviously is of little interest to you. No wonder ummah is going to the dogs …

Sattar,

We are not loosing sleep over anything. It becomes the topic of discussion when u play the victim card. I don`t wanna hear anything from you about what our ulema has said, we know what our ullema has said, do tell us however what Mirza says. Is he a revivor of the deen or messanger of Allah SWT, or is he the messiah or maybe just a very very confused and disturbed man? If he is a reviver then you are LAHORI not Qadiyani, sunnis believe in one reviver every century as well, we are probably not going to take a man who is lunatic enough to call himself a messanger of Allah but in principle thats not what the problem is, problem is Mirza claiming that he was the messanger of Allah who recieved revelation. When you make an absurd claim like that, (and mind you he wasnt the first we have had lunies like that starting from the time of the prophet (PBUH) till probably the end of time), then not only Muslims but the entire humanity will ask for a proof of his prophethood because prophets are sent for entire humanity. SHOW US THE PROOF OF HIS PROPHETHOOD SATTAR SAHAB, abb bhagnayy naheen dein gayy.

Please dont waste your time on quoting Maulana maududi or anyone else, we are only interested in the prrof of Mirza`s prophethood, we are dying for the ``TRUTH`` i am all ears. Because you see if Prophethood is so cheap then tomorrow we might have to deal with you when you claim that now you are recieving messages from the LORD above. And just so you know, You become a muslim when you believe in Oneness of Allah swt with all his attributes, when you believe in reckoning on the day of judgement, and when you believe in the FINALITY of Prophethood, anything less is not Islam. And if you insist that there is room for more prophets, not revivers but prophets then you gotta bring some concrete evidence, not this cocka mimi bullsheatt.

Here some more on ullema’s Islam. Allah’s finest Book and its message are being disfigured for political gains …

[I wonder if this is Islam for abu_safawaan and philosopher …? Urstruly, on the other hand, is losing sleep over the ``baghi`` issue ... go figure ...]

APOSTASY

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains:

“This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that you cannot escape.”

He further states:

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

For those interested ... here’s another example of distortions in Islam at the hands of extremists. This is from Abu Ala Maudoodi, a well-regarded scholar of Islam …

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Ullema`s views on foreign policy of a Muslim state ...

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

[This statement is an open declaration of war. It means that an Islamic nation constitutes eminent danger for neighboring non-Islamic states.

Maudoodi tries to validate his interpretation by casting Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as a person who declared war against other nations to subjugate them. Note the emphasis on unprovoked war associated with the Prophet of Islam … whose sole aim supposedly was to seize power. Maudoodi further states …]

“This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries, but did not wait to see whether these invitations were accepted. As soon as he acquired power, he started the conflict with Roman Empire. Abu Bakr became the leader of the Party after the Prophet (pbuh) and attacked both Roman and Persian Empires and Umar finally won the war”

(Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65)

Urstruly (#338),

Once again you are raising extraneous issues. Thousands of ahadith can be found in historical books. It is futile to get into these for no good reason. And frankly, I have lost faith in your explanations and translations; so will ignore your meaningless demand.

What would be a good starting point is to reject ahadith that negate the message of Quran. Of course, you’ll have to compromise your hideous agenda for this …

Refer to #307 for details.

abu-safwaan (#344, 345),

This is off the subject … but since you’ve brought it up, here’s a brief response.

I consider myself a Muslim since I believe in Quran, the Word of Allah Almighty, and accept Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the true Prophet of Islam. Ahmadis accept Mirza Sahib as a prophet raised by Allah to revive message of Islam. Allah refers to believers as “Muslims” in Quran, so this is the term I use to describe myself.

Furthermore, as I have pointed out, Allah Almighty has granted no one any authority to declare anyone a non-Muslim. I hope you and your ullema note this.

philosopher (#346),

You comment is a derogatory, meaningless one … so I’ll ignore it. Put some thought and meaning in what you write.

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And finally, who you consider a non-Muslim is your business. It is between you and Allah Almighty. We all must strive to live in peace and allow freedom to others to follow their faith peacefully … I hope we can agree on this.

Re: # 348 saroya

i have found the answer of my Q ``b/w the brackets`` of your post.

you wrote;

(for want of a better word and, with total abject apologies to those females that may consider that statement unsavoury or chauvinistic).

you are male.

cheers

................but I understand that satisfaction brought it back...................

Re: # 332

....Curiosity killed the cat............................