It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

Re: # 263
First of all hamidm2,mind ur language while talkin abt the Prophet(salAllahu alaihi wasallum)

Secondly,ur biased views abt Islam n the Prophet simply reflect ur ignorance abt it.Du hav ANY idea how women were treated in those times.He(Sallahu alihi wasallum)didn't hav 14 wives.The number is 11 or 13.Havin 11 wives isn't any backward than havin 3 divorces is modern in today's world.So,do good to urself,read the Quran n clear ur facts up b4 u post anything else so stupid n waste our energy.

Re: # 263
First of all hamidm2,mind ur language while talkin abt the Prophet(salAllahu alaihi wasallum)

Secondly,ur biased views abt Islam n the Prophet simply reflect ur ignorance abt it.Du hav ANY idea how women were treated in those times.He(Sallahu alihi wasallum)didn't hav 14 wives.The number is 11 or 13.Havin 11 wives isn't any backward than havin 3 divorces is modern in today's world.So,do good to urself,read the Quran n clear ur facts up b4 u post anything else so stupid n waste our energy.

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philosopher (#106):

What you said about rajm, also applies to blasphemy as well as adulltery. And this is just the beginning.

If you reject ullema’s views and choose to follow Quran instead, you are basically rejecting the very basis of Urstruly’s Islam. Take away hatred and fanaticism, and very little of ullema’s Islam is left …

Given all that, I am not sure what remains in Urstruly’s Islam that is praiseworthy. It has little emphasis on what Islam teaches us … but on extremism and hatred, disguised as Islam.

Re: # 406

Philosopher

So I take it that you agree with my views about the Hadees in question. But how can you dismiss it so lightly when the Paky Islam (Deen-e-Mullah) stands on this very Hadees which provides the very sword of terror to the Paky Mullah notwithstanding the fact that it tarnishes the very image of the Prophet (PBUH) as `Rehmatul Aalimeen) and seems to condone the worst form of sex-slavery. Above all, is it not the worst joke with the Islamic Shariah to convert it into a naked lynch law? It recalls to me the prophetic remarks about partition of India attributed to Moulana Abulkalam Azad to the effect that ``Bharat mein Musalmanon ka bura haal ho ga aur Pakistan mein Islam ka``.

I wonder if the very terror implied in the Hadees about the veracty of which you are doubtful is perhaps preventing you from discussing its very awfull implications as I had expected from you dear philosopher.

Re: # 405teshah

[ But mind the compilation of Sunnan Abu dawud is included in ``Suhaa Sitta`, the six authentic compilations of Ahadees]

Being in ``suhaa sitta``doesnt make every Hadith authentic.even sunnis do not considers all the hadiths of ``sahih muslim``and sahih bukhari authentic.

#404 sattar2

[After praising Urstruly, you`ve just stabbed him in the back]

i still praise urstruly.i have made one point very clear in my posts that hadith should be considered a source of general guidance not legal coz we are not 100% sure of the events and every hadith.these hadiths can guide us how prophet[pbuh]solved the problems of His time.

with the passage of time language gets corrupted.we have thousands of interpretations of even the Holy Quran which is the most authentic source.

Hadith literature has always been vulnerable in the hands of wicked people.they messed up with hadiths big time.

And i can never accept the hadith of rajam authentic for the simple reason coz its contradictory to the Quran.

Re: # 403

I agree with you. I consider especially this Hadees to be positively blasphemic as it negates the very image of the prophet (PBUH) as `Rehmatulaalameen`. But mind the compilation of Sunnan Abu dawud is included in ``Suhaa Sitta`, the six authentic compilations of Ahadees and the main basis for the lynchings under the Law of Blasphemy in Pakistan.

#403 ... exactly my point.

After praising Urstruly, you`ve just stabbed him in the back ...

Re: # 401

That`s why i think a lot of Hadiths are fabricated and can not be considered authentic.

Hadiths should never be considered the authentic source of islam.

Re: # 401

Aykk orr baolla budhaa, boy i tell yaa they are dime a dozen on chowk.

Re: # 4

A better alternative perhaps. But why don`t you suggest sex-slaves which can be beaten as you like and even lynched without any retaliation, if, of course, she is accused of blasphemy. See the Hadees below:

``Sunnan Abu-Dawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother (A slave-woman bearing children but not treated as a wife?) who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.``

Abu Sahib,

Your silence on “rope of Allah” says a lot. Apparently metaphors are lost on you.

You think Issa resides above clouds … and that your belief is normal. Do you see the irony?

Let’s agree to disagree and move on. And we can pick this up again when your Issa-ibne-Marriam descends from the skies. Till then, ”to you, your faith, to me mine”.

Re: # 398
Now wouldn`t u be a peach and denounce Mirza`s lunacies as well. But you won`t cause that would mean that you are a normal human being with a brain and not a qadiyani, and thats just aint gonna happen, is it?

Abu Sahib,

Main problem here is your interpretation … where you fail to see meaning in metaphors and allegories.

For example, you think that Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago will descend from the clouds, in flesh and blood. I beg to differ and reject this senseless belief.

Along similar lines, what do you think is ’rope of Allah’? A real rope hanging from above … or a metaphor for divine guidance?

And what about Prophet’s educational qualifications? I hope you see your hypocritical view …

The only thing you`ve exposed is your senseless interpretation, which is alright by me. Like I said, we can agree to disagree, and move on.

+++

I am glad you have cited your lack of support for crap preached by Maudoodi. Now, was this really so difficult??? (Urstruly must be having a heart attack ...)

Incidentally this shows how Islam has been distorted by your ullema and turned into a hateful, violent ideology. And therein lies the rub …

Here’s the result of your ullema’s teachings. I am reposting to refresh your delusional mind. Enjoy …

Quranic teachings on apostasy
Forgiven through repentance: 3:86-91
Harmless to faith 3:144, 5:54
Punishment for apostasy from Allah alone 2:217, 3:87-89, 4:137, 16:106

… and blasphemy
4:140 Believers commanded to sever ties with blasphemers
6:68 Believers commanded to turn away from those who blaspheme
13:43 Prophet (pbuh) commanded to refer matter to Allah if someone calls him a liar

… and adultery
24:2 Punishment of 100 lashes for perpetrator
4:25 Half of full punishment for slave women (half of 100 lashes is 50 lashes, but half of “death” is not possible.)

Ullema’s views …
Your ullema, on the other hand, preach that apostates, blasphemers, and adulterers should be killed.

… no wonder ummah is going to the dogs …

Re: # 396

So you can discuss maudoodi which i am not really supporting anyway, but you won`t discuss Mirza? Single digit IQ is still better negative digit *wink*. All joking aside my apologies for exposing you, your demanted religion and your delusional prophet, wasn`t my intention you just took us all there. Only if you hadn`t played that ``Look sunnis stole my candy, *baby-cryin*`` card i wouldnt have been this mean. You can take it, right? seem to have a thick skin, not to mention just overall being dense .

Abu,

As I have pointed out, you`d rather discuss anything and everything ... except hatred and fanaticism of your ullema. No wonder ummah is going to the dogs ...

+++

Let’s pick this up again … when your Issa-ibne-Marriam descends from the skies. Till then keep following your ullema … as they tell you that suicide bombing will take you to heaven …

Speaking of cab drivers without high school diploma ... what educational qualification did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have? I hope you see your hypocrisy ...

+++

I admire your interest in Ahamdi-Muslims … but would avoid debate with someone with single-digit IQ (regardless of his educational qualifications). So I’ll repeat what Quran says … ’To you, your faith; and to me, mine’. I hope this advice would work for us both …

+++

Back to Maudoodi ... What, no?

Re: # 394

Getting mad are we? hahahahaha. Calm down man. Thank you for reading Prophet`s (PBUH) mind for us. So what is it now, is Mirza a prophet or the messiah, or a mere reviver, tell us mr. science? I find it amazing, cab drivers who don`t even have a high school diploma are now reading Prophet`s (PBUH) mind and declaring the original statement as a metaphor (i must commend you for the big word, however, good job.) while believing in dillusional stories from Donald duck. This doesnt have to get ugly, but it will cause you don`t have any concrete evidence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed qadiyani, and you know that i`ll keep insisting on it so your resortation to frustration and personal insults are quite comprehensible.

Abu,

You idiot, it is a metaphor … which simply suggested a future prophet who will be to ummah like Issa-ibne-Marriam was to his people. Whether Mirza Sahib is that prophet or not, is a different issue altogether.

You on the other hand think that Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago will descend from the skies, in flesh and blood.

Keep believing in fairy tales … even as you lick your ullema’s boots …

++++

No comments on Maudoodi? I know it may actually require you to think ... don`t hurt yourself in process ...

Re: # 391

No, never, it’s not Jesus (PBUH), how can that be, that’s preposterous, when Prophet (PBUH) said Jesus (PBUH) son of Mary (PBUH) WHAT he ACTUALLY meant was Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani son of God knows who, because obviously this is twilight zone, that makes perfect sense sattar, I am blown over. Everything you have said now makes perfect sense. Thank You dear dir. Nothing any scholar say is a “hujjat” (justification) for me, Quran and authentic hadith is what I believe in, although I do respect all scholars, but it doesn’t mean I agree with everything that they say, that should shut u up about Maulanan Maudoodi that you seem to be infatuated with.

Serious discussion? With you? Are you kidding. Expalin Mirza’s delusions from Quran and authentic hadith (and this time something a lil more sane than Jesus (PBUH) son of Mary actually meant Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani) first and then expect people to take you seriously, as I said earlier you are getting a lil ahead of yourself here.

abu miaN,

Here’s another gem from Maulana Maudoodi (in addition to #379, #354 and #353 ... all of which you have remained silent on).

Of course, you’d insist that `he was simply a human who may have erred … no big deal`. ``Nonsense``, I say to your lame excuse.

This touches upon issue of propagation you raised earlier. If these are your ullema, it well explains ummah’s fanaticism.

More on apostasy - from Maudoodi …

“In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith”

And

“The execution of apostates has already decided the issue. Since we do not allow any Muslim to embrace any other religion, the question of allowing other religions to open their missions and propagate their faiths within our boundaries does not rise.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1981, 8th edition, page 32.

+++

This is the ugly face of your ullema and what they preach. No wonder Maudoodi is a personal fav of mullah Urstruly here ...

... no wonder ummah is going to the dogs ...

abu Sahib (#390),

Fanaticism preached by your ullema speaks for itself. And you are unable to defend it, even as you lick their boots.

You made excuses for your ullema … suggesting they are merely humans who erred. We both know your excuses are sheer nonsense. Such is the sad state of your Islam.

+++

I’ll give you a clue, an easy one: Ahadith about reappearance of ‘Issa-ibne-Marriam’ are actually prophecies about appearance of a prophet among Muslims … who will bear spiritual resemblance to Issa-ibne-Marriam (pbuh).

Now, you may argue that the same Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago will reappear in flesh and blood from above clouds (something even Urstruly finds too embarrassing to admit). That’s your view, which I am OK with. Furthermore, nothing in Quran or ahadith suggests an end of prophethood.

+++

If you have serious inquiries, I can respond. If you want to start a spitting contest, I must decline.

Perhaps you should start by reviewing what Maudooi has written. If it does not open your eyes, then you are hopeless ...

OUCH!! So all of a sudden the polite Qadiyani is resorting to name calling. Don’t get Mad sattar sahib, I’ll do everything that you are asking me to do as soon as you show me and I quote “Quran and ahadith support continuation of prophethood”. The fact of the matter is that you can’t. How can you? If Mirza himself couldn’t do it and became a laughing stock not only in his lifetime but till the end of time, then you don’t even have a prayer. Go sell crazy somewhere else sattariya. You would have had the right to nag about Ullema’s distorting Quran and Sunnah only if you didn’t believe in a loonie-toon who first claimed to be Prophet, when that didn’t fly, he said I am a messiah, that didn’t even stick so he was like OK can I at least be a reviver? Your sincerity about the misdirection of ummah will start making sense as soon as you dump Mirza as your savior, till then you should have regular appointments with the head-doctor instead of worrying about mine.

abu-safwaan,

You need to get your head examined.

I stated that Quran and ahadith support continuation of prophethood. I did not claim that they mention Mirza Sahib by name as the next prophet.

Cut out the drama and try not to behave like a retard.

+++

You are avoiding crux of the issue here.

When shown hatred and fanaticism of your ullema, your tried to make excuses by suggesting they are simply human who may have erred.

That was a lame, pathetic response.

If people refuse to shun hatred and violence, even Quran or Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh) cannot help them. Rembmer that Quran mentions people whose hearts have been sealed up. Furthermore there is ... `to you, your faith, to me, mine` teaching of Quran.

Take a deep breath, pal. Ummah`s fate rests in their own hands. People like you are pissing it all away ...

Re: # 384

See slowly but surely you are coming around. It took us pages of your incoherent babble for you to say that “Quran and Prophet PBUH said himself that there will be Prophets coming after him”, now if you don’t mind , could you maybe I don’t know, give us some proof of that, and I would appreciate it if its from Quran or authentic hadith, something to the affect that “O’ You who believe wait for a man whose name will be MIRZA AHMED QADIYANI, when he comes accept his message” something like that. Make sure you don’t tell me that MIRZA said that Prophet PBUH came in his dream and told him. You are about to do something truly amazing sattar sahib, fate of billion or more misdirected and disillusioned muslims (not to mention 5 billion or more human being’) eternal future is depending on your next post. Save us all sattar sahib by posting an ayah from Quran like you mentioned in your previous post that talks about Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani as being the next prophet. Once you do that we will become Qadiyanis (True-Muslims, my bad) and noone would have to give you explanation about Jesus (PBUH) being in heavens or the river flowing from Prophet (PBUH) fingers. But don’t get ahead of yourself, give us some proof of Mirza first.

... business is not a problem.
It is sheer idiocy that does you in each time …

Re: # 385

Oye Zurriyat-ul-Baghaya

I am little busy

Urstruly bhai, aadab a’rz

Your prolonged silence on ahadith underscores your hypocrisy. So tell me … did water really flow from his fingers? And is Issa really residing above clouds …?

In this serious discussion, we could all use some humor … you know …

(Abu Mian, feel free to interject. Let us know what your Islam says. Refer to #330 for details … this stuff is pretty awesome … )

abu Sahib (#382),

You are insisting that your ullema decide what Islam is ... and force their interpretation on others. That is, might is right … even in matters of faith.

Such a view is negated in Quran. It violates human dignity at a fundamental level. People should be allowed to peacefully practice their faith … and this is the truth you are in denial of.

+++

FYI, my view is that appearance of prophets after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is fully supported by Quran, sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself, as well as numerous well-respected scholars throughout history of Islam.

Allah has raised prophets throughout history of mankind. All along this was not a problem, but all of a sudden, today it is a problem! There is no reason to support your contention. Quran tells us that people raised all sorts of objections against Allah’s prophets. Your objections are nothing new …

+++

More on handsome analogy: Whether someone considers you handsome or ugly is not the issue. You have the right to consider yourself handsome. If law declares you ugly … and imprisons you for claiming otherwise ... such law is beneath human dignity.

Majority should implement laws they want … and they will collectively reap what they sow. On the other hand, Islam tells me to be patient, to forgive, and to make peaceful efforts to improve status quo. And if circumstances become unbearable, a Muslim should migrate to another land. And life goes on ...

Sahib, you try to sweep under the rug teachings of Maudoodi ... by suggesting he was a human who made mistakes. Well, same can be said of Daniel Pipes, Hitler, and Abu Jehal. A lifetime of preaching hatred and violence deserves condemnation ... not of the person, but of what he stood for.

+++

Crisis faced by ummah today has nothing to do with Ahmadi-Muslims. It is rooted in fanaticism and hatred preached by their ullema over centuries. Ignoring this problem will make things worse … but ummah and their ullema are failing to accept this reality. Result is plain for all to see …

Re: # 377
1. Albert Einstein - one of the greatest philosophers!!!!!

2. Say it all in one breath and the statement is the same - ``freedom from control or the influence of others i.e freedom from the control of others as well as and including freedom from the influence of others``

Re: # 381

All MUSLIMS have the right to practice Islam as they wish, you are not in that Category anymore because you have broken the basic creed of the faith by announcing that there is another messenger after Muhammad (PBUH). It’s not Islam anymore sattar sahib. You keep complaining like you are a sect of Islam that is being persecuted, my dear friend you are Qadiyanis, Sunnis, Shias these are sect of Islam, you are a different religion. But I as an individual have no right to stop you from your ibadats, whether you are doing sajda or rukoo or whatever that’s none o my business, but in return you would have to follow the rules of the game as well, there is enormous jahiliya in our countries and well grounded and established fear is that you will present QADIYANIYAT as Islam to the poor layman’s who are not smart enough to counter the oratory and hence will fall in the trap. I guess you didn’t quite understood my Most handsome metaphor , just because I Think I am, It doesn’t mean I am. If I insist upon it, people would ask for my mug-shot so they can decide whether I am for real or not, that’s precisely what I am giving you the opportunity to do, and you are not getting irritated for some odd reason

I will be saying this for the 5th time now that I am against all type of violence against anyone and everyone. As far as the Draconian laws are concerned, patriot ACT is a draconian law as far as I am concerned but I abide by it because the majority of this country thinks that it’s good for their country. My religion tells me that when I live in a foreign land, I live their as a law abiding citizen, if there laws prevent me from practicing my religion then the HUKUM for me is to migrate to friendlier lands. What I am trying to say is that in a democracy not all laws are to your liking but if that’s what the majority wants, then that’s what they’ll implement, right or wrong. Sattar Sahab our religion wasn’t born yesterday we have 1500 years of lineage and recorded history which you pick and choose to suit your agenda, we have had lunatics and opportunistic thugs who wanted to get notoriety and make a quick buck by claiming to be a prophet even in the time of Prophet (PBUH), mirza didn’t do anything original and we also know how Prophet (PBUH) dealt with “Prophets”, you obviously will deny and say that nothing of the sort happen. The reason ullema are so hostile against you for which I am not endorsing them is because you guys have played dirty in the past. Qadiyanis were declared non-muslims in ’73, your own dubious past brought that fate. In a poor uneducated country where people can’t read there own names, you have to play nice if you don’t and you didn’t then this is what happens. You can’t preach Qadiyaniyat with the label of Islam my dear sir, if you keep on it then we’ll put a stop to it in a democratic fashion because the well being of the illiterate-society at large is at stake.

Abu Sahib,

You are stuck in a ranting mode … which is the correct reflection of the ummah.

Ummah is carrying out suicide bombings and calling it jihad. I grew up in Karachi with shia-sunni riots shutting down the city each moharram. This is the result of hatred and violent ideology preached by ullema. Ahmadi-Muslims have nothing to do with any of this …you are ignoring the problem.

You can claim to be a handsome person … that’s your right. If law prevents you from claiming to be handsome, such law is ridiculous and unfair. Similar is the law that penalizes Ahmadis for practicing Islam. The parallel is obvious …

You agree that even though people approved of discriminatory laws against African Americans, these laws were Draconian and unethical. Obviously people did not think so when such laws were passed! So what does that prove? Only that laws passed very well may be unethical!

A person has the right to peacefully practice Islam as he understands it. Failing to accept this principle is the root of fanaticism. Each sect has been declared kaffir by other sects at some point in time. You yourself are behaving like a fanatic here.

Demanding that I prove my faith to you beyond shadow of doubt further underscores your childishness.

Even Quran suggests that hearts of hypocrites have been sealed by Allah. This implies that when a person nurses hatred in his heart, his reasoning gets compromised. To such people best advice is … to you, your faith, and to me, mine. Let’s agree to disagree and move on. But must one party violently persecute the other? Must Ahmadis be locked up for offering salaat, for reciting Quran, for saying “as’salamo alaikom”?

You should ask yourself … what right do you have to force your interpretation of Islam on others? Think with a cool head and you may realize fanaticism of your ways. Or may be not …

Re: # 378

See I told you I am not going to just take your word for it, you gotta bring proof of MIRZA being the prophet, that is essential to the argument my friend and I know you will keep on harping and moaning how tremendous injustice has been done to QADIYANIS for declaring them non-Muslims when they ARE INFACT NON-MUSLIMS. You have to prove that they are, by showing to us proof of mirza’s Prophet-hood. Why is that so hard to do? I am glad you mentioned civil-rights and American constitution and the persecution of Meccans. There is one diabolical difference however, African Americans showed and proved their case to American masses and hence DEMOCRATICALLY those draconian laws were over-turned, the truth was on their side. It’s not on ur’s. This is exactly what I am saying, if you are able to proof beyond the shadow of doubt the validity of Mirza as the messenger of Allah then the entire Pakistani nation will welcome you with open arms, not to mention the entire Muslim world, you’ll be the hottest thing since slice bread. But the problem is you can’t, cause if you could, the 20,000 americans that are converting to True-Islam every year would be converting to Qadyaniyat, cause obviously you have all the freedoms here in the west, if Qaiyaniyat was such a HOT thang I am sure you would have met at least mediocre success in an open and free society like USA.
Sattarr Sahab at the end of the day all you have is rhetoric and hogwash, I asked you a plain and simple question, if you are breaking the basic creed of the religion then you must be doing it under some conviction. I am just asking you to show me what is the source for that conviction, are you Qadiyani because your parents are Qadiyani, or did they really give you some concrete video evidence that Allah SWT was talking to MIRZA, anything would help really.
It’s a very slippery slope, as I said earlier, tomorrow some other loon can claim prophethood so we gotta set some standards here. I am not here defending Maudoodi (Rahim Ullah Alleyh), he was a human being and he made mistakes I am sure, we will discuss his writings once we establish that you as a Muslim have concerns regarding his literature, right now you are nothing but a hater, so lets deal with the bigger issue first, shall we? But you can criticize him as an outsider just like Daniel pipes harp all day on Muhammad (PBUH), its least of my concern. I agree that Bal thakray and george bush don’t claim to be Muslims, but since when did claiming justify the right. I claim to be the worlds most handsome man, anyone can claim anything, you gotta back it up with something as well. In case of Islam you would have to back it up with the proclamation that “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) was his LAST messenger”, ironically enough initially that’s what Mirza preached as well till the brits made him an offer that he just couldn’t receive. Having said all o that, I personally believe that violence and force creates animosity if we truly would like to win the hearts and minds of people and bring them within the folds of Islam then it would have to be done with compassion and dialogue. But then the problem is that your Scholars runaway from Dialogue and debate as well.

In addition to #354, here’s some more on Maudoodi’s views. Pretty scary stuff this guy wrote …

… ummah is going to the dogs … and the faithful are engaged in intellectual masturbation, debating who is who is not a Muslim. Big deal gents! It`s now time to grow up ...

abu miaN, this is what you should be worried about. But if I were you, I`d first consider changing my screen name ... just a thought. Where the hell are you from, anyway ...?

Urstruly, c`mon now, did water really flow from Prophet`s fingers ... ??? I know there are these ahadith ... but seriously. And is Issa-ibne-Marriam really residing above clouds …? Enlighten us. We Chowkies would hate to be among the disbelievers when he descends down to earth … I heard the penalty is pretty stiff …

+++++++

More on apostasy and Islamic revolution - by Maudoodi ...

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.

abu_safawaan (#368):

You are mixing up many issues, confusing them altogether. Think carefully and avoid rambling.

Issue I have raised here is distortion of Islam at the hands of ullema, who have turned Islam into a violent, hate-filled ideology. I cited misuse of ahadith as well as views of Maudoodi in this context.

Instead of addressing these issues, the issue raised was views of Ahmadi-Muslims. This was a distractive method used by Urstruly, and you are only furthering this insanity.

It is one thing to consider a person non-Muslim … but it is a different issue altogether to make it a crime for him to practice Islam. It is this criminalization (and violent persecution) that I have criticized as the issue was raised.

It is not Ahmadi-Muslim beliefs, but violent views of your ullema that are causing havoc in Islamic world today. Your contention that Ahmadis are distorting Islam more is a misplaced idea. The house is on fire and you are busy remodeling the kitchen!!

Bush, Thackray are not Muslims … agreed. But they never claimed to be Muslims either. That’s the difference between them and Ahmadis.

Majority of a nation deciding what is good for them is one issue. However, this decision does not necessarily reflect right and wrong in a moralistic framework. US constitution discriminating against African-Americans did not make the Constitution right. It only made it legal to discriminate against African-Americans. Similarly, inhabitants of Mecca also collectively decided to discriminate against and persecute Muslims. This however did not make the discrimination against and persecution of Muslims right.

I hope this answers your concerns about ‘democracy’ and collective choice of the people.

+++

Declaring someone non-Muslim, legally or otherwise, against their wish violates principles of Quran in my view. If a nation collectively wants to violate Quran, that’s their choice. But let’s not call this choice ‘Islam’. It is far from what Islam teaches us.

Declaring Ahmadis non-Muslim, followed by criminalizing their practice of Islam, shows how low ummah has sunk … all in the name of Islam. This is distortion of profound teachings of Islam and what our dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us all his life.

I am quite satisfied in accepting Mirza Sahib as a prophet of Allah. I believe in Allah Almighty, in Quran, in prohethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) … and consider myself a Muslim. I offer salaat, pay zakaat and charity, fast during Ramadan, would like to perform Hajj someday …

My understanding is that Allah Almighty will raise prophets as He sees fit. Islamic teachings suggest continuation prophethood. You may disagree, and that’s fine by me. We may discuss it further as appropriate, but that’s not the issue here …

The issue here is distortion of Islam at the hands of ullema, who have turned Islam into a hate-filled ideology. This distortion of Islam continues to perpetuate cycle of destruction and death on a massive scale in different parts of the world. All this, and not Ahmadi-Muslim bliefs, should be causing you anxiety. I hope this is clear … is it ...?

+++

Urstruly (#369), aa`dab a`arz qibla ... I hope you are feeling better (ahem, ahem)
...

Re: # 376saroya

[Read: Ideas & Opinions - Albert Einstein]

i am talking about philosophy not science and einstien.

[Both statements suggest freedom from control or influence of others - on this we agree]

hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

---

.

well ,my statement sugessts freedom from control not influence of others.

Best.

Re: # 375

1. [Read any introductory book on philosophy.]
Read: Ideas & Opinions - Albert Einstein

2. [It is a brave soul indeed that chooses independence from the mob.]
[The real brave soul is always ready to live with mob and still able to organise itself.


Both statements suggest freedom from control or influence of others - on this we agree

Re: # 373saroya

[I really doubt they were trying to answer the question of existence]

Read any introductory book on philosophy.


i had used the term ``existence``in the technical sense.

#374saroya

The real brave soul is always ready to live with mob and still able to organise itself.

#372saroya

thanx for the link.

cheers

It is a brave soul indeed that chooses independence from the mob.

Re: # 322

[All Western philosophical movements have failed to answer the question of existence]

I really doubt they were trying to answer the question of existence.

Most movements, or groups of people of similar persuasion, tend to be subjective on any issue if it does not agree with their philosophy.

Re: # 367

Further examples of `objective consideration` located at

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007558&channel=university%20ave&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1

Enjoy!!

Re: # 367

None at all it would seem!!!

Re: # 369

Urstruly Sahab,

``Inamal aamalo bin-niyaat``

Re: # 368

Good thoughts but I take exception to you repeatedly addressing them as ``Ahamdis``. There is a unanimous fatwa from all ulema of Pakistan that they must not be addressed as `ahmadis` because even in inuendo it hints towards their association with our Prophet Mohammad Ibn Abdullah (pbuh) whose one of the given name was Ahamad (pbuh). We should be careful about these little things.

Re: # 361

You can`t expect to keep preaching to us about how injustice have been done to ahmedis because they have been declared non-Msulims when they are infact NON-Muslims and then write a meaning less sentence like, `` i hope you can appreciate this`` and then expect me to wither away. Ullema`s might have distorted Islam to lesser degre but when when every joe blow and his khala start claiming that they are recieving revelations from the ALL MIGHTY, thats distortion at its utmost.

This claim that noone has the right to decide who is muslim and who isn`t sounds noble but i think i can claim with some surity that from the surface it looks like that George Bush is not a muslim, Bal Thakray is not a Muslim, Daniel Pipes just might not be a muslim, anyone and everyone that doesnt believe in the basic creed of our faith which i explained in my earlier post can not be considered a muslim, that doesnt mean he or she should be any less of a citizen, i truly believe that but having said that when the majority of Americans decided that they have reasons to pass a draconian law like patriot act because they felt it was for the good of their country, in the same manner any country`s majority should have the right to govern their lives. Put a hand on your heart and tell me if there was a fair and free refrendum today in pakistan regarding giving qadiyanis permission to openly propogate their religion, what do you think the response would be? When we become champions of democracy then we must not be selective. You have all the liberty of propogating your religion in in England , USA and almost the entire world. It doesn`t look like its sweeping the masses, but thats besides the point. You have every right to criticize our ullema, no one is stopping you, but if you claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani is the messanger of Allah swt, then expect a quandry, and don`t get frustrated.

Re: # 366saroya

[Biases restrict objective consideration of any issue]


objective consideration??????????

is there any???????????????????

Re: # 360, # 363

Biases restrict objective consideration of any issue.

Urstruly (#339)

To wrap things up … my explanations of “bhaghi” did not get through your thick skull … and you’ve been losing sleep over this for a long time now.

I had explained that root word “baghi” connotes oppressed, misguided, those from whom Allah’s blessings have departed. It is somewhat similar to Urdu word “baghi” … which suggests rebel, radical, dissenter etc.

I cited 3 Arabic references in support. But you demanded that I post scanned images of Arabic pages. I told you to buzz off, since your stubbornness is not my problem.

Here’s the link to our debate. You have mixed up your references which I explained to you in detail. Your stubbornness was followed by frustration and resignation. You have now slipped into denial … (not the river in Egypt). Dr. Sohail would have a field day with your case!

Click [Response to false accusation]

+++

I hope you have better things to keep you busy, you loser …

khurram (#362),

Short question, long answer … you better read all of it :-)

You indeed, I accept possibility of a recorded ahadith being unauthentic if it negates Quran. I am of the opinion that Prophet (pbuh) did not violate teachings of Quran.

As I understand, there are several avenues to understanding Quran. First and foremost, one must have humility and a sincere desire to discover truth. One should read, think, ponder, consult references (including ahadith!), pray to Allah Almighty for guidance …

+++

Some Quranic commandments are relatively simpler, and are consistent with universal standards and general human consciousness. These include emphasis on honesty, civility, how to conduct one’s self, how to treat others, etc.

If a hadith says something radically different from such Quranic commandments and does not sit well with one’s own conscience, it is wise to put that hadith on hold without rushing to judgment. This is the point of examples I cited earlier (#307).

A physics professor may very well be an atheist (or a religious devout!). However, one can still learn a thing or two about physics from him, without necessarily subscribing to his views. A person has to satisfy his own quest for truth. According to Quran each person will be responsible for his own thoughts and actions.

+++

Some Quranic verses make heavy use of metaphors, communicate deeper ideas, and hence, are difficult to grasp. Some Qruanic verses acknowledge this attribute of Quran itself. Perhaps such verses aim to encourage readers to reflect deeply, or hold deeper truths that will continue to unfold with passage of time …

When trying to understand such verses, one must make use of ideas of others as reference points to better his own understanding. These verses however, cannot be rightfully used to validate extremist ideas, in my view.

+++

After all is said and done, there is yet another way of viewing all this …

If you are wondering whether a straightforward idea may be slowly, imperceptibly stretched into a hideous ideology, my answer is ‘yes, indeed’ (esp. given that ’straightforward’ and ’hideous’ may very well be relative, somewhat abstract terms).

A book is as fragile as the mind reading it; any idea can be twisted to mean anything. And perhaps that’s part of the human dilemma … knowing when to say “when”, knowing when it is “enough”, and knowing when “more” is still needed.

Human existence is far too complex to be governed by hard and fast rules. On the other hand, rules that acknowledge human dilemma and are flexible enough to accommodate it, may be malleable enough where they may be stretched to fit somewhat radical notions. And therein lies the heart of the matter …

So after all is said and done, I see human heart as the seat of the divine … human mind as the battleground between god and satan. Enemy is not out there, but lies within. ”Satan is like blood running through one’s veins …” I recall reading a ahadith …

kaalchakra (#360),

Yes, indeed … people will read what they want to read. And like everyone else, Ahmadi-Muslims are no exception either.

Given our own biases, we must allow ourselves as well as others to peacefully practice what we, or they cherish. In this regard I have objected to coercion in matters of faith. Such coercion is sub-human, beneath dignity, and totally rejected by Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Failure to accept rights of others is a path to overzealousness and bigotry. Such bigotry hurts those foremost who harbor it. This, I believe, is the recipe ummah has lost, that it must regain in order to better itself and their communities.

Re: sattar2

I understand your position that only hadith that is consistent with Quran must be accepted.

But this does raise a valid question. How to interpret the Quran in the first place? Can`t use any Hadith for that as that would be circular logic.

abu_safwaan (#357),

You are confusing the issue.

Actually I am quite “hot” on ahadith, but realize that not all recorded ahadith are fully reliable. In case of conflict I give preference to Quran, and accept possibility of errors in recorded ahdith. Perhaps that’s the difference between you and me.

If you read my posts, you’ll see that I raised the issue of corruption of Islam at the hands of ullema. It seems that profound and peaceful message of Islam, the teachings of our dear Prophet (pbuh) have been misrepresented by ullema for political gains.

Unable to respond in a reasonable manner, Urstruly criticized beliefs of Ahmadi-Muslims instead. He tried to validate odd-ball recorded ahadith to justify extremism. However closer scrutiny of ahadith negated his views. He then raised the “baghi” issue to obfuscate things further. But I have largely ignored this silliness of his. He (and perhaps another member) has engaged in diversion and mudslinging, while ignoring the painful truth about ullema’s Islam. You are only furthering this insanity.

+++

Look, views of Ahmadi-Muslims is a separate discussion. We may agree or disagree, but we must maintain dignity and thoughtfulness in our discourse. Islam grants people freedom of faith, without coercion. Since the Ahmadi issue was raised, I cited the example of their declaration as non-Muslims to illustrate the point of distortion of Islam.

As I pointed out, it is one thing to consider a person non-Muslim. However, making it illegal for this person to practice Islam is beneath dignity. Sadly enough, this is what the ullema have done. It says nothing about Ahmadis … but about the character and views of the ullema.

+++

Ummah needs to focus on views of their own scholars who are preaching fanaticism. I cited Maudooi to illustrate this point. It is counterproductive and dangerous for ummah to sweep under the rug such teachings while claiming that Islam is the religion of peace and justice.

These hateful teachings have laid foundations for extremism that infests ummah in this day and age. Apparently suicide bombings are a valid form of jihad.

No, this is not Islam that was given to us by dear Prophet (pbuh), Mercy for the mankind. Ummah today is at crossroads that defines its own soul, essence of mainstream Islam. It is futile to engage in fruitless discussions at such critical times. Your own focus should be Maudoodi, and not Ahmadis, for example.

If you have sincere questions about my faith in Islam, we can discuss it later. This is a different forum altogether. I hope you can appreciate this …

``Quran and hadith states.....``

Abu bhai and sattar, people read what they want to read. You will find that it is nearly impossible to convince each other about the meaning of words.

Can`t some other means be found for bridging this difference amicably?

Re: # 338

Please forgive the intrusion. I realise that your comments were directed to another; however, I am interested in your question...

[````The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone`s death or on account of anyone`s birth.````]

Did they or did they not (the people that witnessed the eclipse) believe in the Prophet and his teachings? In other words, were they his followers or his enemies?

I ask because if they did believe in the Prophet and his teachings then the solar eclipse would have been seen by them as a sign of the power of the Prophet.

If, on the other hand, they didn`t believe in the Prophet and his teachings then they would have seen the eclipse as a sign `that he got what he deserved`; perhaps the death of his son was seen as an admonishment of the Prophet and his teachings.

Either way; let’s assume that he spoke the words in response to the suggestion that the two incidents, that is, the death of his son and the solar eclipse, were related.

What was he trying to say to these people?

As examples of possible meanings, and all the while assuming that his words were not altered in translation:

Explanation 1

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Neither the sun nor the moon outweigh or exceed in importance the life of one man.

Explanation 2

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Both the sun and the moon will endure beyond the life of man.

Explanation 3

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Man is of little importance compared to the sun and the moon.

Explantion 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, …………………………………

Ad infinitum!!!!

One can neither accept nor reject without a true understanding of what the Prophet was trying to say.

Re: # 350


Well, aren`t you perceptive!!!

I`m glad we have something in common!!!

Re: # 356

ahhaa..if Quran and ahadiths (which a moment ago u werent 2 hot about) support the continuation of prophethood then whats stopping u to share it with the rest of us, share the love man, we are dying to be overwhelmed with ur and mirza`s wisdom here, why r u running away ..proove the validity of ur prpohet, why is that so hard. Qadiyaniyat was not an issue on this board till u start harping how pakistanis have declared Qadiyanis as non-muslim, i said its because they are non-muslims, u said they arent because Quran and hadith states that Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani is on his way to shower us with his wisodm, show it to us n u`ll be home-free, stop dancing around and make mirza proud by showing to us the proof of his prophethood.

abu-safawaan (#355),

The issue I have raised is of corruption of Islam at the hands of ullema. Read my post #307, 353, and 354 as examples. Beliefs of Ahmadi-Muslims are not the issue here.

Your argument would have validity if Ahmadi-Muslims preached violence. You can cite some references, anecdotes if that is the case. If not, take a hike.

You may think Mirza Sahib is a fake. Non-Muslims think that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a fake. My view is that Quran, as well as ahadith, support continuation of prophethood. Now, we can go in circles over this, but that would be idiotic … since this is not the forum for such a discussion. Sorry to disappoint you …

A person with integrity would take an issue with fanaticism preached by Maudoodis … something which obviously is of little interest to you. No wonder ummah is going to the dogs …

Sattar,

We are not loosing sleep over anything. It becomes the topic of discussion when u play the victim card. I don`t wanna hear anything from you about what our ulema has said, we know what our ullema has said, do tell us however what Mirza says. Is he a revivor of the deen or messanger of Allah SWT, or is he the messiah or maybe just a very very confused and disturbed man? If he is a reviver then you are LAHORI not Qadiyani, sunnis believe in one reviver every century as well, we are probably not going to take a man who is lunatic enough to call himself a messanger of Allah but in principle thats not what the problem is, problem is Mirza claiming that he was the messanger of Allah who recieved revelation. When you make an absurd claim like that, (and mind you he wasnt the first we have had lunies like that starting from the time of the prophet (PBUH) till probably the end of time), then not only Muslims but the entire humanity will ask for a proof of his prophethood because prophets are sent for entire humanity. SHOW US THE PROOF OF HIS PROPHETHOOD SATTAR SAHAB, abb bhagnayy naheen dein gayy.

Please dont waste your time on quoting Maulana maududi or anyone else, we are only interested in the prrof of Mirza`s prophethood, we are dying for the ``TRUTH`` i am all ears. Because you see if Prophethood is so cheap then tomorrow we might have to deal with you when you claim that now you are recieving messages from the LORD above. And just so you know, You become a muslim when you believe in Oneness of Allah swt with all his attributes, when you believe in reckoning on the day of judgement, and when you believe in the FINALITY of Prophethood, anything less is not Islam. And if you insist that there is room for more prophets, not revivers but prophets then you gotta bring some concrete evidence, not this cocka mimi bullsheatt.

Here some more on ullema’s Islam. Allah’s finest Book and its message are being disfigured for political gains …

[I wonder if this is Islam for abu_safawaan and philosopher …? Urstruly, on the other hand, is losing sleep over the ``baghi`` issue ... go figure ...]

APOSTASY

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains:

“This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that you cannot escape.”

He further states:

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

For those interested ... here’s another example of distortions in Islam at the hands of extremists. This is from Abu Ala Maudoodi, a well-regarded scholar of Islam …

+++

Ullema`s views on foreign policy of a Muslim state ...

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

[This statement is an open declaration of war. It means that an Islamic nation constitutes eminent danger for neighboring non-Islamic states.

Maudoodi tries to validate his interpretation by casting Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as a person who declared war against other nations to subjugate them. Note the emphasis on unprovoked war associated with the Prophet of Islam … whose sole aim supposedly was to seize power. Maudoodi further states …]

“This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries, but did not wait to see whether these invitations were accepted. As soon as he acquired power, he started the conflict with Roman Empire. Abu Bakr became the leader of the Party after the Prophet (pbuh) and attacked both Roman and Persian Empires and Umar finally won the war”

(Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65)

Urstruly (#338),

Once again you are raising extraneous issues. Thousands of ahadith can be found in historical books. It is futile to get into these for no good reason. And frankly, I have lost faith in your explanations and translations; so will ignore your meaningless demand.

What would be a good starting point is to reject ahadith that negate the message of Quran. Of course, you’ll have to compromise your hideous agenda for this …

Refer to #307 for details.

abu-safwaan (#344, 345),

This is off the subject … but since you’ve brought it up, here’s a brief response.

I consider myself a Muslim since I believe in Quran, the Word of Allah Almighty, and accept Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the true Prophet of Islam. Ahmadis accept Mirza Sahib as a prophet raised by Allah to revive message of Islam. Allah refers to believers as “Muslims” in Quran, so this is the term I use to describe myself.

Furthermore, as I have pointed out, Allah Almighty has granted no one any authority to declare anyone a non-Muslim. I hope you and your ullema note this.

philosopher (#346),

You comment is a derogatory, meaningless one … so I’ll ignore it. Put some thought and meaning in what you write.

+++

And finally, who you consider a non-Muslim is your business. It is between you and Allah Almighty. We all must strive to live in peace and allow freedom to others to follow their faith peacefully … I hope we can agree on this.

Re: # 348 saroya

i have found the answer of my Q ``b/w the brackets`` of your post.

you wrote;

(for want of a better word and, with total abject apologies to those females that may consider that statement unsavoury or chauvinistic).

you are male.

cheers

................but I understand that satisfaction brought it back...................

Re: # 332

....Curiosity killed the cat............................

Re: # 333

Do you think so?

Having the pleasure of knowing many females I would imagine they would challenge those statements and most vehemently at that!

However, having said that, you may also be correct in assuming that evolution has, in actual fact, been discriminatory in the selection process.

If one revisits history and reviews what is claimed archaeologically as the type of lifestyle our ancestors `would have` or `could have` been subjected to, enjoyed, participated in, been part of, experienced, whatever; then, we would have to agree with your summary.

We are led to believe that the females of society at that time would have been the gatherers, the child raisers, the `slaves` of the males... (for want of a better word and, with total abject apologies to those females that may consider that statement unsavoury or chauvinistic).

The males on the other hand, we are told (and it is assumed) would have been the hunters and the `masters` ??? (again, not my words, merely conjecture given the evidence upon which our conjectures are based).

Consequently, and therefore, what you have said, is neither unfair nor improbable a hypothesis; as, women APPEAR to STILL be in the same situation as they were millions of years ago viz. they still raise the young, they still are `the gatherers` and what`s more, the male of the species still considers himself a hunter, provider, protector, and a `master`!!!

So what conclusion could we draw?

Evolution, although it has altered the physical aspect of the species (both genders here), it does not appear to have altered in any way the `emotional` DNA`s of either gender; assuming of course, that there is an `emotional` DNA.

Therefore, hypothetically, it is OK to hit a woman, not because Allah says so but because it has been this way since time immemorial and it is expected!!!

And no, I am not suggesting anyone tries it!!!!

An assuage of modern day man, Human Rights!!!

To be Qadiani and at the same time claims to be muslim is just like saying``i am a true christian ``BECAUSE`` i believe jesus christ was an ``illegetimate child``.

Re: # 343

And just so u know, its not just Pakistan who considers you guys non-Muslims, any sane muslim whose IQ is higher than 5 does. It`s a cliche that Ummah is never united on anything, but believe you me we are united on this. I am against violence so i think its totally dispicable that qadianis get persecuted, thats completely wrong. But as far as Laws are concerned any majority in any country has the right to govern their lives, my advice would be to do a better job propogating your insanity, become a majority and then you can legislate and declare the sunnis as non-muslims in pakistan.

Ahh hellooo! Are you kidding? Ahmedis and qadianis and mirzais have been declared non-muslims because they ARE NOT MUSLIMS. It’s like saying “I love eating beef, but other than I am a vegetarian!” Man go sell crazy somewhere else! Since you love Quran so much, first prove without the shadow of doubt, we are not going to take your word for it and keep in mind that Ahmed (PBUH) is the name of our prophet, your’s is MIRZA GHULAM AHMED QADIAN, show me where in Quran does it say MIRZA GHULAM AHMED QADIAN is on his way to shower us with his wisdom and then you can harp and complain how our ullema’s snatched your candy. What is this fascination with being called Muslims anyway, take a page from the playbook of bahai, at least they have the decency to be honest and say that we are a separate religion. Allah or uskayy rasool (PBUH) nayy joo kaha uskii dhajiyyann bhii urani hein, baywaqoofii orr jahalat parr bhii israrr hay or shikwa yeah hay kayy hamein musalman nahii maan tayy. Sarayy paagloon koo jhaylnayy kayy liyayy hamm hii reh gayeyy hein.

Zeena (#290 - sorry for the delay ...),

Agreed – Islam is not monopoly of anyone. A person should follow it the way it makes sense to him/her, without fears of repercussions, without forcing one’s own views on others.

Allah Almighty uses the term Muslim for “believers” in Quran - without granting anyone the right to declare others otherwise.

What ullema practice is not Islam, but a distorted form of Islam. E.g., in Pakistan they have not only constitutionally declared Ahmadis non-Muslims, but have also made it a crime for Ahamdis to practice Islam! There’s more about violent persecution of Ahmadis (as well as other sects) in Pakistan – news that does not get reported - but I will digress for now.

+++

The issue involves the very face of mainstream Islam and ummah’s fundamental outlook. Treatment of women and handling ideological differences are significant parts of this outlook, which stands today, perhaps more than ever, in dire needs of reformation.

My main problem with ullema has to do with their efforts to force their ideology on others. It is a dehumanizing approach altogether which incidentally also violates the basic Quranic principle of “no compulsion in matters of faith”.

And that’s the travesty of our time … Allah’s finest book revealed through His finest Prophet (pbuh), being twisted and distorted out of shape …

Urstruly,

You raised the issue of “bhagiya” … not me. Yes, it is a lame effort on your part to divert attention.

And you`ve remained silent on the following as well. Add it to your list, buddy.

Prophet in the sky and the one-eyed monster – according to ullema

On basis of ahadith, your ullema tell us that Hazrat Issa (pbuh) has been living in the sky for over 2,000 years now! He will eventually descend down to earth on shoulders of two angels. He will fight and kill the one-eyed evil monster who will be riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. This monster will be short with crooked legs and will camp outside Medina … which will be guarded by angels. He will be later killed by Hazrat Issa in a bloody battle …

+++

It seems your Islam cannot stand scrutiny of reason and facts.

So before asking me, you should first explain views of your ullema. Then we can discuss Ahmadi-Muslims, Jewish conspiracies, and anti-Islam agenda of little green martians from outer space ...

sattar

``Also pathetic are your efforts to divert attention``

Typical mirzaiyat, typical lies. You asked a question about ``Baghya`` about 10 posts below and I just answered it. Perhaps you should try to focus your questions on one issue at a time.

So I take it, you are not going to answer the question on solar eclipse. I simple no would do. Then I will explain your question on rest of the miracles.

Urstruly Sahib, aadab aarz.

I take if you cannot explain the ahadith I pointed out (#330). Your faith in ahadith is pathetic, even as you preach their bullet-proof authenticity of to others.

Also pathetic are your efforts to divert attention from the issue at hand. They say more about you and your Islam than anything else.

Moving on ...

Buried somewhere in your posts is a significant claim: that ahadith were checked for conformance with Quran as they were validated by ullema. This claim does not add up either. Here`s how ...

Time and again I have pointed out Quranic teachings on following issues:

Apostasy
Forgiven through repentance: 3:86-91
Harmless to faith 3:144, 5:54
Punishment for apostasy from Allah alone 2:217, 3:87-89, 4:137, 16:106

Blasphemy
4:140 Believers commanded to sever ties with blasphemers
6:68 Believers commanded to turn away from those who blaspheme
13:43 Prophet (pbuh) commanded to refer the matter to Allah if someone calls him a liar

Adultery
24:2 Punishment of 100 lashes for perpetrator
4:25 Half of full punishment for slave women (half of 100 lashes is 50 lashes, but half of “death” is not possible.)

On the other hand, on basis of ahadith, your ullema teach that apostates, blasphemers, and adulterers should be killed. Note the difference!!!

+++

What conformance with Quran are you referring to?

These are but a few examples to illustrate how twisted your Islam has become.

... more later ...

Re: # 329

sattar wites:

``On a side-note … I recall the debate you are referring to. Mirza Sahib called his opponents “zurayatul-bhagiya”, an Arabic idiom suggesting “those without guidance”. You mixed up references and claimed that he called his opponents “Children of prostitutes”.

As I said before, forget about the ``Arabic Idiom``; lets see how Mirza Sahib himself has translated the meaning of the term “zurayatul-bhagiya”, in the glossary/Index section of his book ``Roohani KhazaiN Vol 16``

Before I get to word Baghaya, the meaning word Zurriyat should be explained. The literal meaning of the Zuriyat is the English word ``Offspring`` but in its usage it is used in a more comprehensive sense like ``progeny``.




He has enlisted three meanings for the word Bhaghaya:

1. The first synonym he writes is ``Zanan-e-Bazari``

The word zanan-e-Bazari in urdu has only one meaning i.e. those women who trade sex in a red light like area i.e. bazar- meaning Prostitutes. Another equivalent term used in urdu is Bazari Aurtain which is a relatively more common term.

2. Baghaya are those women that were named in one of Holy Prophet`s (pbuh) prophetic hadith as ``intelligible``-ul-Dajjal (the word is not printed very clearly in the specimen photocopy).

Mirza Sahib further elaborate in this regard that these women were prphesized to emerge before the emergence of Dajjal (The Anti-Christ) just as the abundance of rats is a symbol of the emrgence of beubonic plague. (these women, sic) are in fact impure and dirty but with their make up and get up they (create an illusion, sic) of purity and uprightness. This is the dajj`l (an overwhelming evil) and that is why they are equivalent (or have resemblence of ) of Dajjal (The Anti-Christ)

3. The reason for the this resemblence between ``Baghaya`` and ``Dajjal`` is that when a certain evil reaches its untimate then it starts giving birth to more evil. The men of a household where such women reside become Dayyuth (pimps) and dajjal (evil) themselves.

[The Arabic word Dayyuth specifically refers to those men who prostitute their own women, like wife, sister, daughter etc. So it is worst than what english word ``pimp`` implies]

Sattar;

The last time when I said that ``there is more to come``. I meant that there are other photocopies of this book as well where he specifically has used the words with page number and all. But to tell you frankly it all turns my stomach and I really do not give a shit what your belief system is. If you believe Mirza sahib to be true prophet of God and last hope for mankind for salvation then more power to you. In the words of Qura`n ``to you your Deen (religion) and to me is mine``. The late general Zia ul Haque once said that ``kissi kay aqeeday ko chaiRo nahiN aur apne aqeeday ko choRRo nahin``. My question is why mirzaiyat as a religion cannot stand on its own merit. Why mirzais have to discredit Islam to validate their own religion - which they never can as long as there is one single Muslim living on this planet. Bhai live and let live.

Sattar

Over the years I have tried to explain every hadith that you have questioned but you summarily reject all explanations so what is the use. But for a change let me ask you your comments on a Hadith.

The following Hadith constitutes the words of the Prophet (pbuh) which he uttered on the day when his toddler son died after illness. Incidently, on the same day a solar eclipse occurred and some of the people tried to connect the two incidents. Here is what he replied:

````The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone`s death or on account of anyone`s birth.``

..........Muslim No.1966.


Please explain whether this Hadith is consistent with the teachings of Qura`n or not. Should we accept it or reject it.

Re: # 336 kaalchakra sahib

i did not say`i like that ,i said i am impressed.

Brother philosopher, thanks, but don`t take any of that seriously. No decent person would think like that (unless, like me, you too have no interest in being a decent person :))

Re: # 333

No other post on this site has impressed me more than this one.

Correction: that self-abnegation would be toward the master only. For, the pride of such a person in `no-master-is-half-as-good-as-my-master` role and the his or her ferocity in defending the master`s ever-shaky honor have to be seen to be believed....

Saroya

In evolutionary terms, women in most societies may have developed a greater yearning for personal stability, situational unambiguity, and overall simplicity. To obtain that stability and unambiguity, they may more readily choose to surrender personal freedom and to submit to/ be disciplined by a masterful disciplining and punishing force. Since this will obviously entail signficant and continual physical and emotional trauma, they might have developed better the art of self-abnegation and greater affinity/tolerance for pain, all within the context of a total worshipful attitude toward the disciplining, punishing master (or maste