It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

Re: # 275

Good, aren`t you glad that you are not Muslim then. But then I see that your are the one dying to be one. I don`t understand you people. Hamidm: why can`t these people be more like you.

And please refer your case about Ant and Solomon directly to God, who wrote the Book. I just answered a question that was asked.

Urstruly (#132),

You admitted to ullema being shamefully superstitious as you tried to explain “talking animals” hadith. Accordingly, almost all of your ullema fit this category. And you want us to take them seriously?

And there’s more …

You have remained silent on other recorded ahadith … regarding Prophet Issa in the sky, water flowing from Prophet’s fingers, earth repeatedly expelling corpse of his enemy. If all this embarrasses you, blame your ullema.

Re #149 - 99.33% confidence level of certified ahadith does not automatically validate the remainder. Read the paragraph above. Apparently the remaining 0.67% include several fairy-tale ahadith - that you are too embarrassed to explain.

Re #173 - Exploring universe sounds good in theory … but when you start with “talking ants”, you won’t get very far! Again, problem lies with you ullema, and not with Islam.

Re: # 273

No one is asking you to take anyone seriously since you are a non-muslim. You worry about your own religion and let us worry about ours.

I promised myself that I will not answer this idiotic question but let me give my final thoughts on this subject. Aside from the fact that it was the norm of those times (which you already said you would not accept as a valid argument), there are many other facts to consider. First when you look at all the women he married you will understand that because of every marriage either an alliance was made for his people or something was gained for his followers, or the woman needed protection. Unfortunately your idea of Muhammad’s (PBUH) marriage hinges upon your limited vision of this enlightened Western philosophy. Almost all the marriages were with widows who were not famous for their beauty or their wealth (Hazrat Khadija for the money is an exception which is why I said almost). These marriages were for either protection or for the women’s position and respect. Our prophet (PBUH) did not gain much from it but they were sort of a personal sacrifice for him. He remained true to a wife for 25 years who was much older than him when there was no law on the limitation of marriage. Plus the ladies who married our beloved prophet were never forced into marriage. Unlike you or I worldly pleasures held no meaning for him. He was true follower of Islam and he was single-mindedly devoted to Allah.
The limitation on the number of wives was fixed after the eighth year of Hijra and our Huzoor had married all his wives before then. He was then commanded by Allah to keep those he had married and forbid him to marry any more. The verse “It is not allowed to take wives after this (33:52) shows that he had entered into his marriages in accordance with the law of Allah. There was a reason behind those marriages and once the objective was reached he was restricted to do so any longer.
Just because you think goras are always right, don’t forget that there is nothing that says that Western code of conduct is superior to the true Arab code of conduct of those days. Don’t compare the conduct between goras and our so-called Islamic scholars. And don’t compare your life and the life of some of these idiots with the prophet’s life. No matter how hard you try, you will not understand the reasons behind the things that happened. I am not asking you to accept everything (which you probably will not because of your so-called enlightened education that you probably are very proud of) but I am asking you to not go to this extend where you disrespect your own religion (from your name I am guessing you are a Muslim) and your own prophet. It is better for you to just remain quiet rather than give other non-Muslims idiotic ideas to attack your identity.
And look, I did it without quoting a hadith.

Re: # 269

hassan and urstruly,

..... i have heard all these ``excuse`` before - they are nothing more than excuses and attempts by apologists to justify an ugly pratice ........ the only reason he waited to indulge himself until khadija died was because she had financed his venture and was his co-conspirator - he didn`t dare upset her or she would have upset his apple cart .........

..... in any case, it is quite immaterial what he did then; we simply cannot use his sexual behavior or his words to form the basis of how we should treat women today - they deserve better ............

Re: # 270

Crying hoarse in the f***ing wilderness... :)

Re: # 270

The question was not whether you find something morally offensive or not; the question was how do we even know that Prophet (pbuh) even married a woman named Khadija, or she was a wealthy woman if she really existed or did he even marry more than one woman. How do we know?

Saroya

It would have been so very helpful to see you and Dr. Sohail constructively engage in this discussion so we could settle whether and when it is ok to hit a woman.

That`s said with all respect, because you are really good folks. And good folks shouldn`t be preaching only to the choir.

Re: # 265

hassan mian,

...... so please tell me the facts about the prophet`s marriages and liasons ....... the fact is that he did what was the norm for that day and age, but that does not mean that he was a paragon of virtue by today`s standards which have evolved to regard women as more than chattel ............ the sooner the muslims accept this fact and dump both the koran and the hadith on the top shelf of their bookcase, the sooner they can set about reforming their warped system of values ....... otherwise there is no hope and poor zeena and her sisters will continue to be treated like pigs and ahmedis .........

Re: # 266

hamidm

``...... so please tell me the facts about the prophet`s marriages and liasons ....... ``

This is a very intersting question and I am dying in anticipation to see the answer. Lets see how hasanmahmood answers the question without using any Hadith. Karen Armstrong??? what is her source of information.

Zeena, your statement regarding my post is greatly appreciated and accepted.
Mr. hamidm, first let me say that you should not speak until you know the facts. Just because you consider yourself a little enlightened does not mean that you should speak in this way. That is rude, and shows your lack of intellect. I am not going to come down to your level and debate with you about Huzoor’s marriages or his lifestyle. But read Quran and you will understand a lot of things.
As for the rest of the Haidth loving, women hating intellectuals let me give you an example. In 1990 I was attending a Philosophy 101 class when the professor came in and whispered “A Black cat was seen chasing a brown dog by a white person” to the person who was sitting in front of the class and he was told to whisper that sentence to the person sitting behind him who then was told to do the same thing. When we were finished with this little exercise, the professor asked the person sitting last in one corner of the room what the sentence was. He replied “A black guy was chasing a dog”. For all you naqhbandi’s, and abu-safwan’s, and whoever else thinks that they are true pillars of Islam let me tell you this. You keep berating the fact that there is validity in hadith and if we don’t believe them then we are disrespecting our Prophet (P.B.U.H), which is an asinine statement. What we are doing in not putting our faith in other human beings (not our Prophet) who could have listened to something and then changed it entirely for their own good. After all they were normal human beings. If 40 students cannot keep the story straight (from my example above) do you really think that the words would be the same over centuries? This is not the words of Quran (which did not change) but words spoken by a Human Being. Now are you going to scream at me for calling Huzoor a human being? For years I heard that Hadith said this or that. On Television after news there was a hadith they used to show (Even if you have to go China to learn then you should do it). Everyone used to quote this hadith but now all of a sudden this hadith is considered “a weak hadith”. For years I heard everyone said Alcohol was haram and it is written in Quran. When I read about it, I found out it was not haraam. So I questioned these people who then told me “Oh Huzoor mentioned it in his last Khutba.” So I looked at the Khutba and they were wrong again. So the point is, don’t listen to what others say, and look at Quran. It has a lot more things then you might believe in. A lot of times you are looking at Hadith for guidance when you have the word of Allah in front of you. So don’t start proving to the world how valid these hadith are when you have a book much more valid than that. That is why instead of wasting your time trying to understand Hadith, you guys should go and read Quran. I have seen people like you fight over what the right way of doing vozoo is without knowing that vozoo is actually explained in Quran clearly. You guy argue over what is haram and halal (be it alcohol or unzabeeha meat) not knowing what is written in Quran. You guys argue about how high your shalwars should be or how big your dari should be. You guys love to berate women without realizing the respect they actually deserve. You guys want to sansaar everyone involved in sex without knowing what the true punishment is. One of you guys mentioned (probably Naqshbandi earlier) that being called a Mullah is something to be proud of and he has not achieved this status. What kind of a moronic statement is that? What has Mullahs given you except the wrong interpretation of Islam and the treatment of women as things who are not even respectable enough to be called humans. You guys quote how great you are with your treatment of women but the abuse you hurl at Zeena speak to the contrary. By berating Zeena and other people who don’t agree with your stupid ideas, you do nothing but disrespect Islam. It shows that people like you are the reason why we are considered third-rate when it comes to treating women with respect. When you did not have any answers to her replies you resorted to sexual innuendos and cheap vulgar statements. If you guys are in love with the Talibanization of your religion you are free to do so. But stop making stupid statements. Well, because Zeena was a woman you guys thought sex would be the best way to go. So now what about all the guys who support her point. Are they only interested in having sex too or you think they all want Zeena as their girlfriend. You guys are pathetic. Stop wasting time. Philosopher, just doing PHD does not mean you are smart. It only means that you could not get a decent job after your Masters. Naqshbandi, change your name. You sound like that Qazi Hussain idiot.

#262 by Saroya

I believe that. Look around you, and you`ll find the same.

#259 by Saroya

Good words. But as words are, just words.

You`ve got to remember, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Re: # 260

...........the more things change, the more they remain the same.

You can`t honestly believe that!

Re: # 260
You never disappoint me.

It has taken 94 posts to answer my question.

And the answer came from one that was ridiculed, taunted and called unintelligent by some members of this forum.

I wonder do you realise that the world is no longer flat? A sailor won`t fall off the edge of the world if he sails beyond the horizon.

So much has occurred in the time that this planet has been in existence. Some good and some not so good; and still mankind prevails; stronger and wiser and more widespread than ever before in the history of man.

And still we theorise at Chowk on outdated practices in times long gone.

A bridge is required for 6 billion people. A bridge, strong enough to support their weight, yet flexible enough to allow the freedom of choices of religions and beliefs of the people of the 193 (not 37, as some would have us believe) countries upon which they stand.

This forum, like many others, gives a voice to anyone interested enough to build this bridge. And this voice will be heard.

This is mankind`s greatest challenge. Not to theorise on the sanctity of one man, nor to tear apart the philosophies of humanists, rationalists, hippies or anybody else that doesn`t conform to one way of thinking.

Such is the power at Chowk.

Such is the power you give away so freely when debate turns offensive and creates in itself a cul de sac from which no-one can escape.

So many minds of obvious intellect laid waste by bigotry at Chowk.

“The brightest future will always be based on a forgotten past. You can’t go forward in life until you let go of life’s failures and heartaches”