It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

Ahh hellooo! Are you kidding? Ahmedis and qadianis and mirzais have been declared non-muslims because they ARE NOT MUSLIMS. It’s like saying “I love eating beef, but other than I am a vegetarian!” Man go sell crazy somewhere else! Since you love Quran so much, first prove without the shadow of doubt, we are not going to take your word for it and keep in mind that Ahmed (PBUH) is the name of our prophet, your’s is MIRZA GHULAM AHMED QADIAN, show me where in Quran does it say MIRZA GHULAM AHMED QADIAN is on his way to shower us with his wisdom and then you can harp and complain how our ullema’s snatched your candy. What is this fascination with being called Muslims anyway, take a page from the playbook of bahai, at least they have the decency to be honest and say that we are a separate religion. Allah or uskayy rasool (PBUH) nayy joo kaha uskii dhajiyyann bhii urani hein, baywaqoofii orr jahalat parr bhii israrr hay or shikwa yeah hay kayy hamein musalman nahii maan tayy. Sarayy paagloon koo jhaylnayy kayy liyayy hamm hii reh gayeyy hein.

Zeena (#290 - sorry for the delay ...),

Agreed – Islam is not monopoly of anyone. A person should follow it the way it makes sense to him/her, without fears of repercussions, without forcing one’s own views on others.

Allah Almighty uses the term Muslim for “believers” in Quran - without granting anyone the right to declare others otherwise.

What ullema practice is not Islam, but a distorted form of Islam. E.g., in Pakistan they have not only constitutionally declared Ahmadis non-Muslims, but have also made it a crime for Ahamdis to practice Islam! There’s more about violent persecution of Ahmadis (as well as other sects) in Pakistan – news that does not get reported - but I will digress for now.

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The issue involves the very face of mainstream Islam and ummah’s fundamental outlook. Treatment of women and handling ideological differences are significant parts of this outlook, which stands today, perhaps more than ever, in dire needs of reformation.

My main problem with ullema has to do with their efforts to force their ideology on others. It is a dehumanizing approach altogether which incidentally also violates the basic Quranic principle of “no compulsion in matters of faith”.

And that’s the travesty of our time … Allah’s finest book revealed through His finest Prophet (pbuh), being twisted and distorted out of shape …

Re: # 343

And just so u know, its not just Pakistan who considers you guys non-Muslims, any sane muslim whose IQ is higher than 5 does. It`s a cliche that Ummah is never united on anything, but believe you me we are united on this. I am against violence so i think its totally dispicable that qadianis get persecuted, thats completely wrong. But as far as Laws are concerned any majority in any country has the right to govern their lives, my advice would be to do a better job propogating your insanity, become a majority and then you can legislate and declare the sunnis as non-muslims in pakistan.

Urstruly,

You raised the issue of “bhagiya” … not me. Yes, it is a lame effort on your part to divert attention.

And you`ve remained silent on the following as well. Add it to your list, buddy.

Prophet in the sky and the one-eyed monster – according to ullema

On basis of ahadith, your ullema tell us that Hazrat Issa (pbuh) has been living in the sky for over 2,000 years now! He will eventually descend down to earth on shoulders of two angels. He will fight and kill the one-eyed evil monster who will be riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey. This monster will be short with crooked legs and will camp outside Medina … which will be guarded by angels. He will be later killed by Hazrat Issa in a bloody battle …

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It seems your Islam cannot stand scrutiny of reason and facts.

So before asking me, you should first explain views of your ullema. Then we can discuss Ahmadi-Muslims, Jewish conspiracies, and anti-Islam agenda of little green martians from outer space ...

sattar

``Also pathetic are your efforts to divert attention``

Typical mirzaiyat, typical lies. You asked a question about ``Baghya`` about 10 posts below and I just answered it. Perhaps you should try to focus your questions on one issue at a time.

So I take it, you are not going to answer the question on solar eclipse. I simple no would do. Then I will explain your question on rest of the miracles.

Urstruly Sahib, aadab aarz.

I take if you cannot explain the ahadith I pointed out (#330). Your faith in ahadith is pathetic, even as you preach their bullet-proof authenticity of to others.

Also pathetic are your efforts to divert attention from the issue at hand. They say more about you and your Islam than anything else.

Moving on ...

Buried somewhere in your posts is a significant claim: that ahadith were checked for conformance with Quran as they were validated by ullema. This claim does not add up either. Here`s how ...

Time and again I have pointed out Quranic teachings on following issues:

Apostasy
Forgiven through repentance: 3:86-91
Harmless to faith 3:144, 5:54
Punishment for apostasy from Allah alone 2:217, 3:87-89, 4:137, 16:106

Blasphemy
4:140 Believers commanded to sever ties with blasphemers
6:68 Believers commanded to turn away from those who blaspheme
13:43 Prophet (pbuh) commanded to refer the matter to Allah if someone calls him a liar

Adultery
24:2 Punishment of 100 lashes for perpetrator
4:25 Half of full punishment for slave women (half of 100 lashes is 50 lashes, but half of “death” is not possible.)

On the other hand, on basis of ahadith, your ullema teach that apostates, blasphemers, and adulterers should be killed. Note the difference!!!

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What conformance with Quran are you referring to?

These are but a few examples to illustrate how twisted your Islam has become.

... more later ...

Sattar

Over the years I have tried to explain every hadith that you have questioned but you summarily reject all explanations so what is the use. But for a change let me ask you your comments on a Hadith.

The following Hadith constitutes the words of the Prophet (pbuh) which he uttered on the day when his toddler son died after illness. Incidently, on the same day a solar eclipse occurred and some of the people tried to connect the two incidents. Here is what he replied:

````The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone`s death or on account of anyone`s birth.``

..........Muslim No.1966.


Please explain whether this Hadith is consistent with the teachings of Qura`n or not. Should we accept it or reject it.

Re: # 338

Please forgive the intrusion. I realise that your comments were directed to another; however, I am interested in your question...

[````The sun and moon are two signs of Allah. They are not eclipsed on account of anyone`s death or on account of anyone`s birth.````]

Did they or did they not (the people that witnessed the eclipse) believe in the Prophet and his teachings? In other words, were they his followers or his enemies?

I ask because if they did believe in the Prophet and his teachings then the solar eclipse would have been seen by them as a sign of the power of the Prophet.

If, on the other hand, they didn`t believe in the Prophet and his teachings then they would have seen the eclipse as a sign `that he got what he deserved`; perhaps the death of his son was seen as an admonishment of the Prophet and his teachings.

Either way; let’s assume that he spoke the words in response to the suggestion that the two incidents, that is, the death of his son and the solar eclipse, were related.

What was he trying to say to these people?

As examples of possible meanings, and all the while assuming that his words were not altered in translation:

Explanation 1

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Neither the sun nor the moon outweigh or exceed in importance the life of one man.

Explanation 2

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Both the sun and the moon will endure beyond the life of man.

Explanation 3

The sun and the moon are evidence that there exists a power far greater than us.
Man is of little importance compared to the sun and the moon.

Explantion 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, …………………………………

Ad infinitum!!!!

One can neither accept nor reject without a true understanding of what the Prophet was trying to say.

Brother philosopher, thanks, but don`t take any of that seriously. No decent person would think like that (unless, like me, you too have no interest in being a decent person :))

Re: # 336 kaalchakra sahib

i did not say`i like that ,i said i am impressed.

Correction: that self-abnegation would be toward the master only. For, the pride of such a person in `no-master-is-half-as-good-as-my-master` role and the his or her ferocity in defending the master`s ever-shaky honor have to be seen to be believed....

Saroya

In evolutionary terms, women in most societies may have developed a greater yearning for personal stability, situational unambiguity, and overall simplicity. To obtain that stability and unambiguity, they may more readily choose to surrender personal freedom and to submit to/ be disciplined by a masterful disciplining and punishing force. Since this will obviously entail signficant and continual physical and emotional trauma, they might have developed better the art of self-abnegation and greater affinity/tolerance for pain, all within the context of a total worshipful attitude toward the disciplining, punishing master (or masterforce) who (that) cannot be questioned, let alone insulted.

The freedom of such people may lie in their continuing slavery, their pleasure in the absolute certainty of their regular pain, their reason in their determined active rejection of any thinking for themselves other that which is allowed and approved by the master for the benefit and the pleasure of the master. It is from this master that all good comes. Away from him lies all evil.

Of course, that women would be relatively more drawan to such life is pure animal-level, sexist speculation, and as such should not be taken seriously by any rationalist.

Re: # 333

Do you think so?

Having the pleasure of knowing many females I would imagine they would challenge those statements and most vehemently at that!

However, having said that, you may also be correct in assuming that evolution has, in actual fact, been discriminatory in the selection process.

If one revisits history and reviews what is claimed archaeologically as the type of lifestyle our ancestors `would have` or `could have` been subjected to, enjoyed, participated in, been part of, experienced, whatever; then, we would have to agree with your summary.

We are led to believe that the females of society at that time would have been the gatherers, the child raisers, the `slaves` of the males... (for want of a better word and, with total abject apologies to those females that may consider that statement unsavoury or chauvinistic).

The males on the other hand, we are told (and it is assumed) would have been the hunters and the `masters` ??? (again, not my words, merely conjecture given the evidence upon which our conjectures are based).

Consequently, and therefore, what you have said, is neither unfair nor improbable a hypothesis; as, women APPEAR to STILL be in the same situation as they were millions of years ago viz. they still raise the young, they still are `the gatherers` and what`s more, the male of the species still considers himself a hunter, provider, protector, and a `master`!!!

So what conclusion could we draw?

Evolution, although it has altered the physical aspect of the species (both genders here), it does not appear to have altered in any way the `emotional` DNA`s of either gender; assuming of course, that there is an `emotional` DNA.

Therefore, hypothetically, it is OK to hit a woman, not because Allah says so but because it has been this way since time immemorial and it is expected!!!

And no, I am not suggesting anyone tries it!!!!

An assuage of modern day man, Human Rights!!!

Re: # 333

No other post on this site has impressed me more than this one.

Urstruly,

You are dancing around the main issue here. You have failed to explain the following ahadith. Here you go once again …

Miracles of Prophet – based on ahadith

According to ahadith, the Prophet (pbuh) multiplied food and water. He made trees cry. Water flowed from his fingers. Earth would expel corpse of his enemy by continuously spitting it out. He flew from Mecca to Jerusalem, and back, during night … and even bodily ascended to heavens.

His companions were guided by magical lamps during night.

Then there is one about animals talking to people in his days (when you tried to explain this in post #124, you admitted to ullema’s views being shamefully superstitious!) ...

Click and scroll down … Miracles of Holy Prophet (pbuh)

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There’s more, but I’ll pause here for now. Your continued silence here speaks volumes on where your Islam went terribly wrong ...

Urstruly (#305),

On a side-note … I recall the debate you are referring to. Mirza Sahib called his opponents “zurayatul-bhagiya”, an Arabic idiom suggesting “those without guidance”. You mixed up references and claimed that he called his opponents “Children of prostitutes”.

I corrected your reference and cited several Arabic sources to correct your interpretation. You failed to make your point and ended the debate by stating … ” (sattar) The issue of of baghiya ain`t over yet. Don`t even think that you are off the hook yet…”

That was the last I heard from you on this. What changed since then?

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Your claims against Ahmadis are ill-founded and unsubstantiated. Several anti-Muslim groups make claims against Islam and its Prophet (pbuh). If you have a source, cite it. Otherwise your opinion is just that … an opinion without facts to back it up.

... more later ...