It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

51 % of women in the USA are living alone without the male in there life...it means era is possible only here in uSA.

1 economcally with social programnmes like AFDC family with dependent children and other social richness prosperity of the country bestows.IT IS POSSIBLE

2Islamic countries have the right to do whatevr laws they want to follow
USA does not support majority of the muslim countries people

3. its only few expatriates like minoreties who complain about conditions back home

4Dont compare conditions here with home countries..there are basic problem of povert y and nutrtion much before womens right there

Re: # 112

As far as splitting of the moon in two is concerned I found three facts quite astounding:

1. The splitting of moon was witnessed in various areas of the horn of Africa; the most prominent personality who witnessed it was Nieges, the King of Abyssenia. The early Muslims who migrated to Abysenia to escape the persecution of Meccans have elucidated the experiences of the king.

2. The phenomenon was also observed in the areas around the southern tip of India, where a Hindu Raja who was interested is astronomy witnessed the phenomenon in the wee hours of the night but couldn`t beleive it. However, he recorded the event in his diary. Upon a conversation with Arab traderes who used to sail ships between Sri Lanka, Far East, and China, making pit stops in India, he became aware that the said miracle was attributed to a Prophet (pbuh) in the Arabian Penninsula. The Raja accepted Islam, thereafter. The authenticity of this tale is confirmed by Allama Tahir ul Qadri who found the said diary still preserved in British Indian Library in London. In his magazine Tarjmanul Qura`n he has even cited the catalogue number of this particular library item and challenged anyone to examine it itself.

3. The third and most crucial evidence is the discovery of mid-equatorial ridge on the surface of the moon that runs along the whole circumfrenece. One of the thesis presented to explain the ridge (in Westren astronomical circles) is that it possibly might have been caused by a severe volcanic activity from deep inside the lunar core. It is quite plausible since both earth and moon once split from the sun and until this day the core of earth (and moon) has sun like nuclear fission activity going on inside its core.

The reason that the phenomenon couldn`t be seen in larger part of the world might have to do with the fact that half of the earth cannot see moon anyway at a given time and also due to the sunlight. For example, if the event was seen in India, as witnessed by Hindu Raja, in the late hours of the night, it must have been early hours of the night in Arabia and Africa, whereas in Europe especially Greece and Rome, the two astronomical centers in the world at the time, it would have been under afternoon hours when sun is quite bright.

hasanmahmood #110, #109, 108

Sorry, dude. I apologize. My post # 104 was NEVER meant for you. That was a mistake.

That was meant for #99 abu_safwan.

I am sorry zillion times. I hope I am clear.

Re: # 112 sattar2

i disagree with you partialy.all this sounds fairy tale but is completly explicable when we look it with religious perspective and the all mighty Allah.

well ,hmmm,.i personaly dont believe in hadith as the authenti source of islam.i accept it only as a general perspective about the seerah of the HOLY PROPHET[PBUH] as long as it is compatiable with the HOLY QURAN.

According to my understanding of Quran,quran has completly different approach towards these things.it doesnt demand us to believe in fairy tale.on the contrary Quran has come to destroy these myths and fairy tales.

Quranic language is allegorical and multidimensional.as The Glorious book itself makes distiction about its verses in 3:7 that ``some verses are categorical and others are allegorical`` they are existential truths,not strictly formal,logical or factual statements.their purpose is to instil in the reader the general awarness of man-God relationship.

Hadith can be helpful to undertsand the ``purpose`` of the Holy book[Quran]but they can not be taken literaly and absolute like Quranic verses.people have played a lot of mischief with them.

regards

Urstruly (#112),

I never mentioned splitting of the moon. There very well may be explanations of this event as observed from the earth ... but I`ll digress for now.

Let’s hear about the others …

For example, water flowed from the fingers of the Prophet. Apparently some 1500 men performed wazu from it. Then there is one about the weeping palm-tree …

… there is always this 2000-year old prophet in the sky. Is he still there? Your ``Islamic scholars`` think so!

+++

Knock yourself out. The field is wide open.

Re: # 112 sattar2

i disagree with you partialy.all this sounds fairy tale but is completly explicable when we look it with religious perspective and the all mighty Allah.

well ,hmmm,.i personaly dont believe in hadith as the authenti source of islam.i accept it only as a general perspective about the seerah of the HOLY PROPHET[PBUH] as long as it is compatiable with the HOLY QURAN.

According to my understanding of Quran,quran has completly different approach towards these things.it doesnt demand us to believe in fairy tale.on the contrary Quran has come to destroy these myths and fairy tales.

Quranic language is allegorical and multidimensional.as The Glorious book itself makes distiction about its verses in 3:7 that ``some verses are categorical and others are allegorical`` they are existential truths,not strictly formal,logical or factual statements.their purpose is to instil in the reader the general awarness of man-God relationship.

Hadith can be helpful to undertsand the ``purpose`` of the Holy book[Quran]but they can not be taken literaly and absolute like Quranic verses.people have played a lot of mischief with them.

regards

philosopher (re #116):

You have raised a valid point, one that I have avoided thus far.

Yes indeed, Allah Almighty speaks to us in language of metaphors. This gives depth and wider meaning to the divine message of Quran. Conceivably the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) also employed metaphors and allegories to convey his message.

Let’s hold this thought and come back to it later.

+++

Quran prescribes lashes as punishment for adultery (post #105). But based on a few, odd-ball recorded ahadith, ullema insist on killing the adulterer. There is nothing allegorical about a person getting killed. Using name of Allah to justify brutality over others is low and shameful.

If Prophet (pbuh) prescribed execution for adultery while Quran prescribed lashes, it means that the Prophet himself violated Quran.

Failure to accept this conclusion, or simple commandments of Quran, while insisting on killing an adulterer, casts doubts on credibility and competence of the ullema.

Such ullema are not fit to lead. The result of their leadership is obvious for all to see. It seems suicide bombings are now a form of “jihad”. These ullema also advocate killing a person who leaves Islam. Again, there is nothing allegorical about any of this. It is unjustifiable barbarism … based upon a twisted form of Islam.


Coming back to ahadith and allegories …

If a hadith seems historically accurate and is consistent with message of Quran, it is indeed a good source of wisdom and understanding Islam for me.

So accuracy of ahadith is one issue and interpretation of ahadith is another issue. Clearly somewhere along the line the ullema are messing things up big time.

A person’s belief is his business. Problem starts when fanatic ullema and their followers try to force their beliefs on others … whereby they want to kill apostates, adulterers … imprison Ahmadis for practsing Islam, and more.


To tie it all together ...

When taken to the task to validate their views on basis of Islam, these fanatics point to verdicts of ullema. They fail to explain their views on basis of Quran or reason. I have found this to be the case repeatedly.

… and this is why I take an issue with the ullema and their works. I think they are blowing smoke, exploiting feeble-minded people to further their own agendas. And that`s the point I am trying to make ...

sattar the miracles of our prophet are all TRUE FACTS. God grants them to His Prophets as signs of their authenticity and to help them in their missions.

I know it goes against your Qadiani thoughts but tough.

I believe literally in all the miracles you listed and many besides.

To All Mullahs on this board...........

My take....

Why your hadiths are unable to solve Pakistani women`s problems?

Why all those miserable women that I saw inspite of practicing all those Islamic rituals(praying five times daily, fasting, saying kalima, wearing religious outfits, obeying their males, obey these hadiths by mullahs) are forced to live under shabby conditions and are being oppressed, suppressed, harrased and beaten up on daily basis?

Why majority of those women are forced to live below the poverty levels? Why your hadiths are unable to solve those issues?

All you guys discussing hadtihs validity(useless rants), how much you focus on these women issues? NONE.

Re: # 119 SATTAR2

DEAR sattar2 i totaly agree with you.that`s exactly what i was saying.i think Quran is the ultmate source and criterion.if we find any hadith which is incompatible with Quran or contradicting it than there is no reason on this earth to accept it.

e.g the hadith about rajm[stoning] those hadiths are so ambigeous and contradict the Quran.how can we rely on those hadith in such an important issue especialy when we are not sure about their validity.

HOLY PROPHET[PBUH] himself said that if you find any saying of the prophet[pbuh] contradincting the Quran throw that hadith away.

i think muslim scholars must get rid of this insane atittude of stonning people to death when Quran doesnt recommend that.

i always say that we should take hadith as the general perspective of the life of prophet[pbuh]if it is consistent with Quranic injunctions.

hadiths were written and compiled 200 hundred years after the prophet[pbuh].it was the period of great turmoil in the islamic world.people messed up with hadiths big time.coz it was much more vulnerable than any other source.

how on earth can we attribute such brutality to the prophet[pbuh]who is considered rehmat-ul-lil alaaamin.

mullahs have always brought bad name to islam.the sooner we get rid of the menace of the mullahism the better.

regards.

zeena.
i wont reply your post.you know why.lol
regards

#122 philo...

b/c you`re speechless. LOL.

Let others Islamic tigers come to the front lines to defend hadiths to discuss hadiths for 24/7 on this board............lol.

As if they are the real owners of hadiths and Islam................hahahah

Re: # 117 sattar

Sure lets take them one by one. Lets examine the hadith titled as the ``Speech of the Wolf``, but before we do that lets examine these Qura`nic verses, which describe an incident involving Prophet Solomon (pbuh):

Till when they came to a valley of ants, one of the ants said: ``Ants, get into your habitations or Solomon and his armies may trample you without [even] knowing it.`` He smiled, at what she said. And he said: ``My Lord, support me to be grateful for the blessings that You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and grant me to do the pious deeds, which please You; and admit me, with Your abounding Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous people.``

............... (The Ants) Al-Nam`l 27: 18 - 19

The reason for quoting this verse from Qura`n is to elucidate a point to a person who is seemingly a Qura`n thumping Mirzai, that if Allah wishes, He may bestow any gift to any human beings. So if Holy prophet (pbuh) had the gift to communicate with animals then there is a precedent for that. So the question is, was God of Solomon (pbuh) so helpless to give any of the gifts to the Reason (pbuh) for whom this universe was created - a gift that He had already given to Solomon (pbuh)? So if your answer is `no` then Qura`n, which you quote at every occasion must also be wrong. Having said that....

Now lets come to the Hadith in question. Although I am so tempted to call it Mirzai hypocrisy but in your case I will give you the benefit of doubt and call it your jihalat (ignorance) that you just accept the lies fed by your religious establishment with out investigation or seeing what is being said. I am quoting the hadith below. As you can see that the said narration has two parts, the first part is the actual description of the hadith while the second part is an addition of a certain incident by the narrator, which may or may not have happened as described. May be the narrator just dreamt it, lets see. Now here is the text of the hadith:

Part I:

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 517:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, ``While a man was riding a cow, it turned towards him and said, `I have not been created for this purpose (i.e. carrying), I have been created for sloughing.`` The Prophet added, ``I, Abu Bakr and `Umar believe in the story.`` The Prophet went on, ``A wolf caught a sheep, and when the shepherd chased it, the wolf said, `Who will be its guard on the day of wild beasts, when there will be no shepherd for it except me?` ``After narrating it, the Prophet said, ``I, Abu Bakr and `Umar too believe it.`` Abu Salama (a sub-narrator) said, ``Abu Bakr and `Umar were not present then.``


Part II:
(It has been written that a wolf also spoke to one of the companions of the Prophet near Medina as narrated in Fatah-al-Bari:

Narrated Unais bin `Amr: Ahban bin Aus said, ``I was amongst my sheep. Suddenly a wolf caught a sheep and I shouted at it. The wolf sat on its tail and addressed me, saying, `Who will look after it (i.e. the sheep) when you will be busy and not able to look after it? Do you forbid me the provision which Allah has provided me?` `` Ahban added, ``I clapped my hands and said, `By Allah, I have never seen anything more curious and wonderful than this!` On that the wolf said, `There is something (more curious) and wonderful than this; that is, Allah`s Apostle in those palm trees, inviting people to Allah (i.e. Islam).` ``Unais bin `Amr further said, ``Then Ahban went to Allah`s Apostle and informed him what happened and embraced Islam.)`` palm trees or other trees and share the fruits with me.``



Now if you look at the text of the first part, which actually is the Hadith, by definition, the Holy prophet (pbuh) is elaborating a point by mentioning a parable, and not an actual dialogue with cow or wolf. Using a parable to explain a point is the standard method all around the globe and there are several proverbs in almost every language that are a summary of a parable, like ``Sour Grapes`` which is the parable of a fox. I think this Hadith shouldn`t even be in the miracle category, but I am ashamed to say that among Muslims there are many who feed on superstition without even examining it first.

The second part is not a Hadith but an incident where the name of the Prophet (pbuh) has been used. It is quite possible that the narrator might have dreamt a dialogue with a wolf, which propmpted him to accept Islam. However, there are certain facts that are undeniable

(i) the narrator found inspiration in his experience, which may or may not be real, and accepted Islam.

(ii) He mentioned the incident to Holy prophet (pbuh), whose reaction is unknown.

(iii) Imam Bokari has catalogued an incident that directly or indirectly involves Holy Prophet (pbuh).

Re: # 124 urstruly sahib

possibilities of such miracles is one thing and the validity of the hadiths narrating them another.

off course it is not impossible for Allah to give certain qualities to HIS prophet[pbuh] but it doesnt validate those hadiths.

there is no problem in accepting those miracles if they are mentioned in the Quran.e.g prophet[pbuh]`s ascension to heavens.

but for God sake do not misguide people ,dont creat confusion in the minds of the muslims.

why are we always enthusiastic to quote hadiths when we have got THE GLORIOUS QURAN.

why do always create controversies by quoting hadiths.for God sake get rid of this insane atittude.just make the CATEGORICAL VERSES of the QURAN the source of islamic laws. self contrading hadiths would only worsen the situation.

regards

Re: # 125

You are not the first Quranite on this board and you are not the first I have posed this challenge to. I promise to you that I will stop quoting any hadith, if you explain the following chapter of the Qura`n. It is one of the shortest chapters. Lets see how you explain it without using any hadith. Remember you have a convert waiting:


Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant? Did He not cause their war to end in confusion, And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks, Casting against them stones of baked clay, So He rendered them like straw eaten up?

.............The Elephants (Al-Fiil) 105 - 1-6

Please explain what is Allah trying to say here. Is He pointing towards a historical incidence? What is it; how do you know.

I need to light up a doobie to really appreciate this one...anyone game?

Naqshbandi (#120),

Thanks for making your views clear. Obviously your Islam has no reason or sense. It is based on blind-faith, an amalgamation of “superstitious” ideas (the term is from your brother in faith, Urstruly, who is ashamed of “superstitious” Muslims like you).

+++++++++++++++++++++

Urstruly (#124),

As it turns out, problem lies with your own ullema. I am merely pointing this out … so don’t get upset with me.

So you think the prophets had the gift of talking to animals? Once again you are misinterpreting verses of Quran. Quran is referring to an inhabitant of the “Valley of Ants” … and not an “ant” literally. Do note that Quran uses metaphors and allegories. But I’ll digress for now …

+++

In essence you are admitting that “talking animals” ahadith are metaphors which are being incorrectly interpreted as miracles by ignorant ullema. Apparently a great many “Islamic scholars” are superstitious, according to you! Coming from you this says volumes about their scholarship, which is the point I have made all along.

Feel free to take the issue up with Naqshbandi and his “Islamic scholars”. While at it, do ask him what he really thinks of Maudoodi. Again, don’t get upset … I am only making a point here.

And feel free to explain the Issa-in-the-sky ahadith. Islamic world anxiously await his arrival. And then there are ahadith about water flowing from the fingers of the dear Prophet (pbuh). Word has it that 1400-1500 people performed wazu with this water. Metaphor? Or real? And did the earth really expel the corpse of one of his enemies? Your ullema think so … so don’t get upset with me …

+++

Have a good weekend folks. Let’s pick this up again on Monday …