It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

... Urstruly (#126),

Quick comment for now as I sign out.

There is nothing wrong in consulting works of others (or ahadith), as long it does not violate Quranic teachings or collective humam experience. Quran does say that some of its commandments are easy to understand, while some require effrots of varying degrees.

And if the meaning of something still remains unclear, it is alright to admit that one can`t make full sense of something.

None of this however validates the smoke your ullema are blowing in the name of ``scholarship`` and calling it Islam.

Try to keep things in perspective. You are making ill-thought out, rash arguments.

Re: # 126 urtrustly sahib

i am not expert on Quranic inerpretation.whether it was a historical incident or the one happened in the prophet[pbuh]`s ,it has nothing to do with the validity of those hadiths on which the whole structure of law is based.

if you have read my posts,you would know that i have always said that we can accpet hadiths which are helpful to understand the allegorical verses of the Quran like the one you have posted.But there is no reason on this earth to accpet those which are crucial in legal matters especialy one concerning the stoning.


these hadiths are so vague and contradict Quran.even if there is evidence supporting those hadiths the matter remains doubtful and we have been told in the religion that whatever is doubtful ,leave that.this matter is so crucial,its the matter of someone`s life.and most importantly it brings bad name to our religion.


had it been in the Quran i would have had no problem with it[stoning]but now its insanity to accept such brutal act and attributing it to the HOLY PROPHET[PBUH],ESPECIALY when the matter is so doubtful.

as for as other hadiths are concerned they can be accpeted if they are compatiable with Quran.or if they are explaining the Glorious Quran.we should take hadith literature as general guidance.it is not rational to make every single single hadith an independent proposition and start meessing up with it.

i dont deny hadith,but i have great problem with hadith like stoning which contradicts the Quran.after all hadith were written200 years after the HOLY PROPHET[PBUH].

REGARDS

Re: # 130

So I take it that you are also not taking up the challenge. That`s OK. But you know what, I have real trouble communicating with people who say ``Oh I do not know anything about the Newtons Laws of motion, I have no ``expertise`` on physics, but one thing I know is that those laws are wrong``. Well excuse me.

Just because you ``think`` that ahadith are compromised or they do not feel right to you, means squat. You have to prove your thesis with scholarship - as the saying goes, opinions are like a-holes, everbody has got one.

Re: # 128

Typical Mirzai response - when mirzais have nothing to say they start insulting other peoples` beliefs. How many times do I have to tell you that an insult does not constitute as a rebuttal.

``I feel I have stumbled on, what appears at first sighting, an extraordinary group of beings that, to all intents and purposes, could be considered human.

They are by no means short on intellect as they communicate lucidly with one another on matters most profound and esoteric.

Yet, given their obvious intellect and ability to communicate, the subjects raised in their communication casts doubt as to the period in our history to which they belong.``

Please forgive the sardonicism but I just couldn`t help myself!

I mean no disrespect, I will in due course read all the 130 posts in this interact, purely for interest`s sake; however, for the time being, I must say that of the posts I have read, with the exception of Zeena, you all belong to a galaxy `far, far, away` from this one!!

Re: # 131urstruly sahib

i am not challenging your scholarship on religious matters but what i have learnt from your posts so far is that you reply people`s posts without reading them carefully.

you might be a great scholar but you wont understand other`s view unless you listen to the crap others have got to say.

i have never said that all hadith are invalid and fabricated.just read my posts again.i have said that they are a great source of information about prophet[pbuh] seerah and the interpretation of the allegorical verses of the HOLY QURAN.


we can learn from hadith how prophet[pbuh] solved the problems of his time.but there is no need to accept the doubtfull hadiths and the hadiths which contradict the Quran like the one about rajm.

we should develop a general approach towards hadiths.but the problems with scholars like you is that they always make every hadith and the verse of Quran a proposition and start deriving ridicilous meaning and conclusion from it rather than developing a general ,comprehensive philosophy based on those hadiths and the Quran.


being a humble student of philosophy i know
how poorly you guys apply that formal logic on the religious assertions which have social dynamics.

the relationship of religion and society is not formal or logical coz logical is immutable,whereas the relation b/w society and religion is multidimensional.

you can not apply formal logic on relgion.unfortunatly the whole structure of fiqah[jurisprudence]is based on that formal and fallacious greek logic and even that is not applied properly.

ulema are just unable to understand that this formal logic which they teach in madarssah is absolutly irrelevent to religion.religious language is multidimensional and it represents existential truths not formal.

in the formal logic you can fill anything you want, like,

e.g

all men are mortal

socrates is man

therefore socrates is mortal

the arguement is ``valid``[though it is valid only in syllogism not in every branch of logic``]

but you can derive a valid result with applying some ridiculous facts to act

e.g

all men are tables

akram is a man

therfore akram is a table.

logicaly its a valid arguement but materialy its an absurd arguement.

coz logic is only concerned with the formal validity of thought,it has nothing to do with material validity or existential structure of reality.


Now society doesnt work like that.this logic has created so much mess in the muslim thinking and just eaten away the spirtual message of the HOLY QURAN.

hadith ,on the contrary, doesnt work like that,in fact prophet[pbuh] never dealt with problems with ``formal logic`` but HE always responded to the situation of His society realisticaLY and pragmaticaly.

HE set a great example for us.but ulema applied that logic to prophet[pbuh]`s saying as well completly ignoring spirit behind it.ulema only see what prophet[pbuh]did not why when and how HE did.

we need a dynamic methodology to understand our religion.islam has got great potential in it but this immutable logic is destroying it potential.

this logic is absolutly irrelevent to religion and in fact anything outside the domain of epistemology.

we need multidimensional methodology not the``either be or not be``kinda poor logic.

regards.

[[[#133 by Saroya on January 19, 2007 10:51pm PT
``I feel I have stumbled on, what appears at first sighting, an extraordinary group of beings that, to all intents and purposes, could be considered human.

They are by no means short on intellect as they communicate lucidly with one another on matters most profound and esoteric.

Yet, given their obvious intellect and ability to communicate, the subjects raised in their communication casts doubt as to the period in our history to which they belong.``

Please forgive the sardonicism but I just couldn`t help myself!

I mean no disrespect, I will in due course read all the 130 posts in this interact, purely for interest`s sake; however, for the time being, I must say that of the posts I have read, with the exception of Zeena, you all belong to a galaxy `far, far, away` from this one!! ]]]]

Well said!!!!

#98 by akberm on January 19, 2007 8:51am PT
One of the things that we all need to comprehend crystal clear is that if we are looking at any verse of the Holy Quran we HAVE to look into the CONTEXT ... we got to know the verses before and after, revelation of the verse was in Mecca or Madni, the political, social conditions etc ... It`s very pivotal to know the context ... and my understanding is that ISLAM is a dynamic religion ... People are educated and much more educated than our ancestors.... There are laws and rules and regulations now ... in a nut shell, Men has no grounds to beat a women from the Islamic perspective...
[Reply to interact #98]
akerm,
I fully agree with you .Those old principles arn`t applied now.why should have edge , only because they are physically strong ?now trend has changed , if you abuse daughter-in law ,next moment her family is at your door step.

``People are educated and much more educated than our ancestors....``

Says who????

LOL
All these Mullahs are still busy in discussing Hadiths and trying their heads over heels to prove their Hadiths among each other............

This thread is getting funnier and funnier...................Hadiths and Quranic verses (convoluted according to their own minds) are being discussed and problems are being solved day and night..............

All the miseries of the Muslim women are being solved.............WoW!!!

What a great bunch of Paki muslims have gotten together to solve all these issues according to hadiths..................And chowk is the right place to discuss.............LOL.

#137
Saroya

Yes, indeed. We`re living in a modern age. But, these mullahs are still there stuck up thousands of years back in time and place................hahahaha

Please, mullahs

Come hurry up.....give us more info about hadiths...........

Re: # 138 zeena

you have got such an irartional approach.who has told that we are discussing women`s issue here.we are discussing the validity of hadiths and the proper methodology to interpret them.

i know you are munkar-e-hadith.you believe only in the Quran.

that`s fair enough but it doesnt mean that every one else here is doing ``jhak baazi``only coz you think all hadiths are fabricated and manipulated by men to suppress women.

plz come out of this consipiracy theory kinda stuff.

these are serious academic issue and gotta be discussed seriously.

regards

Re: # 139

Sweetie do u realize that u come off as being a retard when u do ``hahahahahaha`` for no apparent reason? i know it must be lonely cuz obviously with ur attitude & girth it`ll always be hard to find a man but u can always buy cats. Think about it...

Re: # 133 saroya or whatever.

i dont know whether you are``he`` or ``she`` but one thing is clear that you seem to be good at hit and run tactics.

we are discussing here the things which concerns the society and the 57 countreis of the world.

these are not insignificant issues.

oh-- you are doubtful of the intellectual competence of the interacters here?well if you are-, just show what you yourself have got to offer.

baby i m doing phd in philosophy.what i can discuss with you would be unimaginable for even the countless forefathers of yours.

zeena--what`s your problem? we weren`t even talking about women specific issues but about hadith scholarship in general..

Why are YOU getting your knickers in a twist? I swear, lady, you sound like you haven`t been laid in ages...