It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

Sorry Mullahs,

Pl dont read this post-in-bad-taste:

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If u like these Chowk Administrators, pl dont read this.

We are fed up with these niggers.

For those who dont know: Two posts were made on boards
1. Wife beating 2. Pakistan`s Democracy. None of the msgs was abusive.

That means no violation of any guidelines. The words didnt contain any abusive words which we normally see them here and the posters were normally overlooked.

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Sample: By HP 232 on India`s Foreign Policy board:

``Abey bhootni kay apni maan kay khusam say gaand mara.``

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We sent several emails b4 this to Chowk Eunuchs. Now we sent another on the same subject. It may look silly but it looks like that Chowk Chutiyas are deaf-cum-blind or rank Eunuchs.

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Quote:

I dont know if it`s a person or a group of persons:

We had been asking for termination of our IDs for good but u guyz never responded to the emails.

We want our IDs both VRV and Folio to be terminated for good.

Emails were sent and u were sitting on them.

Shameless chituya(s).

Mard hai to terminate kar, yah if u dont then confirm that u are eunuch(s)!

Mard(s) or Eunuch(s)??????????????

Unquote

Chowk Administartor(s) Chutiy(s).

P.S: This is no way meant for the guys who founed this site and I feel that founders and administartors are not the same.

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........... so what is the consensus of all the learned folks on this forum - is it okay to beat your wife (lighlty) or not ? ........ mrs hamidm has been acting up a little lately and i need to know how to fix the problem without getting on the wrong side of allah mian and his prophet, muhammad mian ...........

........... all this other stuff about ants talking to people and the moon splitting into two is not really relevant to the issue at hand ............. but just for the record, the other day i was talking to my shitzu and he told me that jesus christ had already come back to earth and was now living under a bridge in portland oregon ............

hamidm

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no it is not okay unless she has been repeatedly been unfaithful to you in which case it is better to separate BUT knowing from your past posts what a good woman mrs hamidm is [what did she do to end up with you?!] i dont think you too have a problem. maybe she just wants, you know....

do your manly duty....;-)

what is a shitzu?
a horrible jap?!! :D

Re: # 147

naqshbandi,

..... don`t you think it is a little silly for grown men (and an ungrown woman) to be talking about wife-beating and talking animals in this day and age ? ...... it is bizzarre ! .... what is more bizzarre is the fact that mrs hamidm`s friends won`t pray in our house because of the poor shitzu even though we spend a small fortune on his grooming and he is as cute as a bug`s ear .......... it seems today`s muslims rank dogs in the same category as pigs, ahmedis and menstruating women even though i think there is some hadith about a couple of muhammad mian`s bosom buddies being holed up in a cave with their pet dog .........

.... since you seem to be a reasonable muslim, why don`t you compile a selection of hadiths that are friendly towards dogs and women ........ i know there is not much you can do about pigs, ahmedis and hindoos who are eternally damned ............

Re: # 134 Philosopher

Ok, I think I might have been little rash and too quick to judge you. Lets start from the beggining. Every objection that you raise about ahadith is absolutely correct and valid; but you must realize that these issues have been raised 12-13 centuries ago, contested, debated, verified and documented already. Just to give you an idea about how rigorous the process of collating ahadith was consider this: there is an estimated 750,000 collected narrations which can be catagorized as hadith. Of these 750K ahadith Imam Bokhari has certified that about 3500 to be verified and true. If we add all the ahadith from all six most authentic books of ahadith the number does not exceed 4000 (since most of them are repeats); add to that about 500 (my estimate) in shia books of ahadith, the total number of certified ahadith does not exceed 5000. It means the level of statistical confidence about the voracity of these certified ahadith is about 99.33%; which according to the Science of Statistics is an extremely significant statistics. This is the best human beings can do, short of God HImself coming down to earth telling them what is right hadith and whivch is not.

The second misconception is that the Islamic Fiqah is based on Bokhari`s collection or the collection from the five other books. This is not true. For eaxmple, Imam abu hanifa whose jurisprudence as fiqah-e-hanfi is followed by about 80% of the Muslims around the globe died about 20 years before Bokhari was even born. The other five jurists like Shaafii, Hanbali, and Malik were students and teachers of each other and that of Imam Abu Hanifa. Almost all of them were persecuted by the government of their times and severly punished because they refused to make compromises on any of their work and impartiality. Imam Abu Hanifa, and Imam Hanballi died because of the wounds inflicted by the beatings by the caliph of that time.

In short the Islamic law is not based on books of ahadith but on the precedent set by the four righteous caliphs and verified by the narrations of the companions of Holy Prophet (pbuh) who were still alive during that time.


Here is a timeline that you might find interesting:

The process of documenting hadith started during the lifetime of the Holy prophet (pbuh) with an expressed permission that he granted to Abdullah bin Masood(ra); the bulk of these ahadith (written by several scribes) remained avaliable in the forms of written collections well until Hilago invaded Iraq. centuries while some of them are still preserved in Turkey in the Topp Kappi museum. Now consider this:

Prophet Mohammad (570-632)
The fourth Caliph Ali (RA) (600-661 AD)
Imam Abu Hanifa (699Ad-767AD)
Imam Bokhari was born (810-870),

Saroya

This board should demonstrate the magnitude of the challenge facing anybody who thinks of herself or himself as a ``humanist.``

There is even a guy here who is doing a Ph.D. in philosophy.

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And this is not about Islam, per se. It`s about the entire framework of Goddism that people find so appealing, and are simply unwilling to let go.

Re: # 148
hamidm....

i might take you up on that offer...

i know my mum always says never to be cruel to cats and dogs because `unaaN nii faryaad arshaaN teh paunch jaanii eh`` - their prayer reaches the Divine Throne. quickly..so there!

Allah`s Habib used to like cats and there is a tradition that imam hasan and hussain when they were little kept a little pet dog too. not sure though.

yes, there is the famous story of the ashaab e qaaf and their dog which will go to heaven.

Re: # 149 urstruly sahib

thanx for your reply.intresting information about the development of fiqah.

but the point i was trying to raise in my last is that the formal greek logic ,which islamic jurists of that time used and they still use it as a methodology to understand religion,is

irrelevent to religion and jusrisprudence.this logic is immutable ,whereas the relation b/w religion and society is dynamic and ever-changing.

As i have mentioned in my last post ,that we have to develop a comprehensive view of religion based on relevent methodology.

greek logic has lost its creditability in the philosophical circles.the very important rule of traditional logic is

SUB-ALTERNATION.

e.g

All men are mortal

therefore some men are mortal.

Now common sense has no propblem with it but logicaly[in the modren logic] it is the most unacceptable logic relationship.but this kind of thinking still prevails in our madarssah and our jurists.

i am not saying that we should throw the works of our forefathers away but we have gotta be able to look into these things a bit more seriously.

in the 20th century philosophical movements there is a great potential to understand religion and its relation with society,we can derive a more relevent methodology from them to construct a modren paradigm for islamic thinking.

regards

It is wrong to beat up women just like it is wrong to beat up ANY human being – except perhaps in self-defense.

People here who have to go around sticking their noses in their religion books to say something that simple and common-sense have a REAL problem. No amount of “we are the victim”, or “you got problems, too”, or “it is a conspiracy to defame Islam” can change that simple fact.

Islamists appear to have a serious problem treating a woman as an equal to a man.

A lot of “educated” Muslims are in reality highly retrogressive!

The mentality that treats women as sub-human species to be thrashed about also makes it possible to exploit them as a resource for ``enjoyment``!

This is from today`s Washington Post.

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Temporary `Enjoyment Marriages` In Vogue Again With Some Iraqis

By Nancy Trejos
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, January 20, 2007; A01
BAGHDAD -- Fatima Ali was a 24-year-old divorcee with no high school diploma and no job. Shawket al-Rubae was a 34-year-old Shiite sheik with a pregnant wife who, he said, could not have sex with him.

Ali wanted someone to take care of her. Rubae wanted a companion.

They met one afternoon in May at the house he shares with his wife, in the room where he accepts visitors seeking his religious counsel. He had a proposal. Would Ali be his temporary wife? He would pay her 5,000 Iraqi dinars upfront -- about $4 -- in addition to her monthly expenses. About twice a week over the next eight months, he would summon her to a house he would rent.

The negotiations took an hour and ended with an unwritten agreement, the couple recalled. Thus began their ``mutaa,`` or enjoyment marriage, a temporary union believed by Shiite Muslims to be sanctioned by Islamic law.

The Shiite practice began 1,400 years ago, in what is now Iraq and other parts of the region, as a way to provide for war widows. Banned by President Saddam Hussein`s Sunni-led government, it has regained popularity since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq brought the majority Shiites to power, said clerics, women`s rights activists and mutaa spouses.

``During Saddam`s time, there was no religious freedom,`` said Faris al-Shareef, a sheik who lives in the mainly Shiite city of Hilla.

Opponents of mutaa, most of them Sunni Arabs, say it is less about religious freedom and more about economic exploitation. Thousands of men are dying in the sectarian violence that has followed the invasion, leaving behind widows who must fend for themselves. Many young men are out of work and prefer temporary over permanent wives who require long-term financial commitments. In a mutaa arrangement, the woman is entitled to payment only for the duration of the marriage.

``It`s a cover for prostitution,`` said Um Akram, a women`s rights activist in Baghdad. ``Some women, because they don`t want to be prostitutes, they think that this is legal because it`s got some kind of religious cover. But it is wrong, and they`re still prostitutes from the society`s point of view.`` Um Akram, like the mutaa spouses interviewed, asked that only parts of her name be published.

Many intellectuals consider ancient traditions such as these an obstacle to Iraq`s effort to become a more modern, democratic society. In recent years, extremist religious groups have gained more power in Iraq.

``These steps are taking the whole country backwards and are definitely hurdles to the advancement of the country,`` said Hamdia Ahmed, a former member of parliament and a women`s rights activist in Baghdad. ``The only solution is to separate Islam from politics.``

Shiite clerics and others who practice mutaa say such marriages are keeping young women from having unwed sex and widowed or divorced women from resorting to prostitution to make money.

They say a mutaa marriage is not much different from a traditional marriage in which the husband pays the wife`s family a dowry and provides for her financially.

``It was designed as a humanitarian help for women,`` said Mahdi al-Shog, a Shiite cleric.

According to Shiite religious law, a mutaa relationship can last for a few minutes or several years. A man can have an unlimited number of mutaa wives and a permanent wife at the same time. A woman can have only one husband at a time, permanent or temporary. No written contract or official ceremony is required in a mutaa. When the time limit ends, the man and woman go their separate ways with none of the messiness of a regular divorce.

Although the temporary arrangements are becoming more common, they are still controversial, and people usually conduct them secretly.

Ali had a normal marriage once. It lasted only three months because the couple did not get along. Her chances for another permanent marriage, she said, were slim. Men often prefer virgins over widows and divorced women, she said.

She welcomed Rubae`s proposal because he was a well-known sheik in her neighborhood. Her family was fond of him. ``He was a good guy, and he was a religious man,`` she said.

Rubae had been in 15 mutaa marriages before. A year ago he entered into a permanent marriage with a woman who had been his mutaa wife for a day. When she became pregnant eight months ago, she suggested he take a temporary wife but asked him not to tell her if he did. She does not know about his involvement with Ali.

``As a pregnant woman, she cannot give me my needs,`` Rubae said. ``She treats me real good and she wants me to be happy.``

He chose Ali partly because her blond hair, light brown eyes and petite figure had always attracted him. ``When she puts makeup on, it destroys her beauty,`` he said.

He also liked that she was religiously devout, and he said he wanted to keep her from a relationship outside of marriage.

Ali didn`t think of him in a romantic way at first. ``After we got married, I started loving him,`` she said.

The money he gave her helped. Her father owns a bakery but money has always been tight, so much so that she had to end her education after elementary school. But money wasn`t her only reason for entering the enjoyment marriage. ``I have needs just like any other woman,`` she said.

Both Shiite and Sunni Muslims allow men to have more than one permanent wife, but they disagree over mutaa.

Most Shiites believe that the prophet Muhammad encouraged the practice as a way to give widows an income. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq`s most revered Shiite cleric, has sanctioned it and offers advice on his Web site.

Um Ahmed, a 28-year-old woman from Najaf, lost her husband in 2005 when he was caught in the crossfire of a fight between two Shiite militias.

Soon after his death, she had her first mutaa relationship, with a man who was in a permanent marriage. He paid her 50,000 Iraqi dinars upfront -- or $38 -- and gave her money whenever she needed it during their six-month relationship.

She said she needed it often. She is a tailor and the only one in her family of 10 who works.

``When a human being needs money, the need will make a person do anything,`` she said. ``It`s better than doing the wrong things. This is religiously accepted.``

Many Sunnis believe that the practice is outdated and ripe for abuse. They also see it as more evidence of Iranian influence on Iraqi life. Mutaa is widespread in Iran`s Shiite theocratic state.

``It is a big insult to women,`` said Ibtsam Z. Alsha, a Sunni lawyer and the head of the organization Women for the Common Good of Women.

Women`s rights activists also bemoan what they say is an increase in mutaa on college campuses. Some female students do it for money. Others do it for love when their parents forbid them to marry a man from another sect.

Amani, a 22-year-old Baghdad University engineering student, said she is a Sunni but agreed to enter into a mutaa relationship with her Shiite boyfriend because her parents disapproved of him. ``I hated my family because they did not allow this marriage,`` she said. ``I did this to spite my family.``

Still, she has not told them about the relationship. ``If they find out, it will be my end,`` she said.

A woman cannot terminate a temporary marriage before it expires unless the man agrees, said four sheiks interviewed for this article.

Once the marriage is over, she has to wait at least two menstrual cycles before she can have another relationship so that paternity can be easily determined if she becomes pregnant, they said.

Most mutaa contracts stipulate that no children be produced. If a woman were to become pregnant anyway, Islamic law would require the man to support the child, the sheiks said. But the clerics disagreed over how much power they have to impose that rule.

Rubae said the man who refuses his child would be whipped or even killed. ``We as the sheiks should be sure this thing will stay legitimate,`` he said.

Shareef, the sheik from Hilla, said some men take advantage of their rights under religious law but refuse to accept their responsibility when a child is born. In some of those cases, he said, a sharia court, using Islamic law, is not as effective as a secular court in enforcing the rules.

``I am supporting the idea of the government regulating mutaa marriages, just like the permanent marriages, so these man cannot run away,`` he said. ``Otherwise the women are losing their rights.``

Um Akram, the women`s rights activist in Baghdad, said more women are asking her organization for help in getting national identification cards for children born of mutaa relationships. Parents must present a marriage certificate to obtain the identification cards, which are required by schools and employers.

Um Akram said some single women have given up their children for adoption to married couples who can use their marriage certificates to register them.

``The men just hit and run, and they don`t want to have a family,`` she said. ``The children are paying the price.``

Ali and Rubae agreed not to have children. They simply wanted to enjoy each other.

On the days he could see her, he gave her flowers, perfume, clothing and a watch. They had meals together. Sometimes he could spend the whole day with her. Other times, just five or six hours.

Ali said she cried when the marriage ended early last week. ``It`s just like a permanent marriage,`` she said. ``When he leaves, I become sad.``

Her sorrow did not last long. Rubae said Jan. 12 that he had decided to marry her again. This time, he said, he would marry her for a year, enough time for his wife to fully recover from childbirth.

Re: # 154bjkumar

you are condeming muslim for treating women badly.what about ``karva chauth`` touching husband`s feet.Pati parmaishver.

pati ke charnon mein suwarag.kind of stuff.at least muslim do not do all this crap.your indian media which is so hypocrite always glorify your religion and the submissive role of women.

But when you see anything like that in the muslim world ,suddenly you become champions of humanism.

#155

Dear dumbass Muslim-Atrocity-apologist!

Since you are, in all likelihood, an absolute moron - perhaps even a chowk fat-cat - not to mention an utterly ludicrous piece of sheet who can not get your ass moving one inch without dragging the Book with it and perhaps one who can not read a word of text unless interpreted by a Mullah ... let me repeat parts of #153 for the benefit of you and all the other utterly moronic fixtures of this chowk den who lie to themselves that they are ``intellectuals``!

From #153
[...No amount of “we are the victim”, or “you got problems, too”, or “it is a conspiracy to defame Islam” can change that simple fact. ....]

Read ars-hole ...READ!

I SAID READ!!!!

And then go screw yourself!

A society that does not treat its women right is a society that is destined to stay mired in filth and mud forever!

Re: # 156 bjkhumar wrote;

``[Dear dumbass Muslim-Atrocity-apologist!] [who can not get your ass moving one inch]

[Read ars-hole ...READ!] [And then go screw yourself!]``

i guess chowk staff has stoped reading the interacts.if this crap is acceptable for the chowk staff than there is no need to delete any post in future.

this guy claims to be champion of woman`s right but look, how vulgur language he is using for a woman.

Re: # 152 Philosopher

The modern philosophical thought and Islamic thought process are at the opposite extreme of a spectrum and the reconciliation that you are suggesting is impossible. The modern philosophical thought is based on the premis that there is no absolute truth whereas Islamic philosophical thought is based on one premis that there is One Absolute Truth. This truth is irrefutable, immutable, and non-falacious, that is One God - Tauheed. The natural consequence of western or modern philosophical thought process is the challenge that why man should or could be good without God. All the works of Nietcze, Kant, Hume, Hagel, and many more serch for the reason to be good without God. Man is confused than ever. If today you ask a so called humanist, why you are good, he would point to an already existent religious value and say that he is good because that value is good. Lets face it, he cannot answer ``why`` he is good and how long is he gonna be so. On the other hand in Islamic philosophical thought process once you accept the One Absolute Truth, everything falls in its place. How can you reconcile fire and water??

#158

Listen moron,

You ain`t no woman!

I don`t care what you carry (or lack) between those legs!

You are ``screwed up``, that`s all!

I am sure you lack everything between those ears - or you would not be making asinine half-hearted futile attempts at defending the indefensible!