It is Never OK to Hit a Woman

interesting beginning, but your argument was diluted by the rant in the middle. thanks for sharing various meanings of the word commonly used to justify `wife beating`. now, who is going to forward this to moin khan`s wifes lawyer?

Ahmar ! Ur article is very interesting, but I am agreed with half of content. Dialogues are very important & essential, but times comes when there is need to stop the evil deeds like lewdness with power. I am completely agreed with u that our society is not extremist either towards Islam or either towards enlightened moderenation. We also become sentimental about `Mullah`. The word which we used commonly to blame all those who raised their voice against liberalism. The women who elected democratically & obderved hijab or pardah & become active & arguing at the same level with the women like Kishmala Traiq or other PPP parliament members, facing the crtique. What wrong in this that they are daughters or wives of elected members. The agreement in which women can`t vote in tribal area signed also by PPP, ANP, ML (Q & N), why u r just accusing MMA.

I didn`t come a cross any single article where any one criticize media specially TV Channels like TVOne, HUM, GEO on showing scene where women doing smoking & men are drinking wine. ARY showing a show where homosexuality was discussed. Now we can see open scene of kissing on dramas & music shows. Meera came on GEO in mini skirt. In Sindh TV, the culture which they are showing in their songs no where exist in Sindh. Skin tight trousers & open blouse shirts or sleeve less short t shirts are so common, which is not the reflection of society. Previously, we can see PTV drama with family, but now what are the topics of our Indian inspired dramas protestation, polygamy, mod girls (no connection with common society) violation and divorce. That’s why the channel like Masala is getting popularity where women can see the recopies of food

Boss ! This picture is more scary than the conceived picture of Mullah.

Now, its proven that those who drunk also beat wives, pls don`t put all blames just on Mullah

Marriage, as we know it, could become a thing of the past in India!

Under Renuka Chowdhurys recent persecutive law called 498A, a wife can theoretically blackmail the husband and his family, infinitely - even for money, visa, property, or more commonly, to harass her in-laws with the fear of social blackmail, which may arise from any misunderstanding. Under the draconian IPC 498a (2006), any man ( and his dear family ), could be arrested and thrown in jail - simply on any fanciful charge/s the wife chooses to make.

How could any Indian boy commit himself to a girl in future, with such vindictively biased laws in place? The new laws neither take into account traditional Indian values in marriage, nor the normal ups and downs in marriage, and the immorality of taking undue (criminal) advantage of such situations. In fact, the new laws do not even conceptualise a reunion!

With a 98% acquital rate, the government cannot continue to pretend that already thousands of innocent husbands are not being harrassed by this draconian law.
It is time for the government to scrap the domestic version of POTA and bring in laws more in keeping with harmony and equality (`constitutional right` ?) between the accused and the aggrieved in a family.

Suggestions :

1. Implementable only upto two years from marriage.
2. Only husband should be charged.
3. False complaints should be penalised.
4. Medical evidences should be relevant.
5. Witnesses, not blood relative to the woman, should be available.


One hopes that the media does focus more attention on this urgent matter.


Links :
http://mynation.net

Renuka makes personal use of her own law :
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1021027/asp/nation/story_1329371.asp

Renuka intensely grilled by Thapar :
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/act-wont-hit-good-hubbies-renuka/26051-3.html

``Under Renuka Chowdhurys recent persecutive law called 498A, a wife can theoretically blackmail the husband and his family, infinitely - even for money, visa, property, or more commonly, to harass her in-laws with the fear of social blackmail, which may arise from any misunderstanding. Under the draconian IPC 498a (2006), any man ( and his dear family ), could be arrested and thrown in jail - simply on any fanciful charge/s the wife chooses to make.

How could any Indian boy commit himself to a girl in future, with such vindictively biased laws in place?``(Parathab)

is this our Progressive Parathab! -- after decades of bride burning by the ``in-laws`` u r complainin about brides `blackmailing` the in-laws now -- and Indian boys afraid to marry `a girl` -- well then Indian boys should be marrying Indian boys instead of Indian girls ......

Paragraph five is confusing; several contradictory statements are made in the same breath. This paragraph needs to be broken down into at least three separate paragraphs that discuss and support the main topic points, counter points and counter counter points.

Timely idea-this needs to be revised for over informality, organization, rhetorical support.

Re: # 4, nasah,

See this link for a mans perspective :

http://mynation.net/blog/?PHPSESSID=33f31924622a0a495ba8aa33be060094

well
do u realy wanna know what exactly women want?

read the most amazing web site you will ever come across.you will miss something if you dont.you have nothing to lose ,every thing to gain.

www.takeninhand.com

best

If you need to refer to Quran to learn how to treat fellow humans, then God help you.

How come all the versus sighted here address wife (as opposed to wives)?

I am absolutely convinced that it is in the nature of some women and men; that they would not understand the voice of reason until smacked, spanked, or hit lightly. The West has capitalized on this human nature and turned it into a money making enterprise. If you are among those men and women you will simply go into one of those parlours, pay money, and get beaten up by a leather clad hussy - sometimes with a stick.

Now in a domestic setting, since beating a spouse has become an un-necessary taboo, therefore a wife (or husband for that matter) would not dare even ask to be beaten up - just because they can`t go to sleep. Since women are gifted with the ``nag`` gene, they use it quite often and nag their husbands to death in the hopes that the poor sod will trip and give them their fix. Sometimes they get lucky. Men on the other hand lack the ``nag`` gene, therefore, they get their fix through road rage and liquor.

I hope this new translation/interpretation of 4:34 catches on and becomes the consensus .
But there is no denying the fact that the traditional translation/interpretation (``beat her[lightly]``) was accepted for centuries as the authoritative one by consenus of the ulema and the ummah. After all, ``to strike at something`` is one of the meanings of this word. Why didn`t God use a different word which did not have this ambiguity? Centuries of misinterpretation could have been avoided.

in the Usa According to Asra Nomani men and women are equal
they both should be able to Smack each other ......and as Urstruly refered to BDMSwomen make money of Smacking men

urstruly #9 that they would not understand the voice of reason until smacked, spanked, or hit lightly

This explains why you will not understand to any logical argument on chowk. But why ``lightly``? are you trying to get off easy??!! :-)

tolkinin #11 do you follow your own advice at home?

#7 by saimarana on January 18, 2007 7:49am PT
well
do u realy wanna know what exactly women want?

read the most amazing web site you will ever come across.you will miss something if you dont.you have nothing to lose ,every thing to gain.

www.takeninhand.com
..........................................
What do you want plz elucidate b/c there is no parsing of the url you submitted

#8 by Kulharee on January 18, 2007 7:51am PT
If you need to refer to Quran to learn how to treat fellow humans, then God help you.

How come all the versus sighted here address wife (as opposed to wives)?

[Reply to interact #8]
.................................................

Which century you stuck in laws have been made in pakistan and in other modern states where polygamy is not permitted besides you take one wives case at a time and do not insert your belief or non belief in somthing....

#13 by tahmed32 on January 18, 2007 9:49am PT
tolkinin #11 do you follow your own advice at home?
[Reply to interact #13]
..................................
We both agree on that advice Ahmed sb...all is well in my family

interesting article...Yusuf Estes is a nice bloke but he isn`t a traditionally-learned scholar--I`d recommend Shaykh Hamza Yusuf instead for a more correct, orthodox understanding. To put it bluntly Estes is a soft-spoken Salafi.

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The hadiths of the Messenger make it clear that he abhorred that anyone should mistreat their womenfolk. There is a hadith which says that the best amongst you is he who treats his womenfolk the best. Remember, the best exegete of the Quran is the Sahib e Quran i.e. the Messenger himself alayhisalatuwasalaam.

The traditional understanding was that the lightly beating was only to be used if you find your wife constantly being unfaithful .i.e. having sex with other men and despite verbal warnings not listening to you. Even then one is not allowed to leave any marks and it is said one can only use a miswak [toothbrush]. So obviously the objective is to shame and embarass her from sleeping around.

The problem with desi society is lack of knowledge of islam and also we live in a scarily misogynistic societies, especially in the rural areas where women are treated like chattel. i am so glad i`m not a desi woman living in rural india or pakistan [not that there is anything wrong with desi women of course--they are amongst the most gorgeous in the world but can be very haughty too!]

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As an aside, don`t some women get turned on `by a bit of rough`? ;-)

Re: # 17

yeah, ask your mom that stupid question. She raised an idiot.

Re: # 17 ``Even then one is not allowed to leave any marks and it is said one can only use a miswak [toothbrush].``


what the....... are you for real? wait till i tell my husband this, he uses an oral b electric one which could hurt like hell

Re: # 17

No.

can someone PLEASE tell me where in the Quran does it say that it`s ok to beat your wife with a toothbrush

I`d be interested to know what the Quran says when a man is being lewd, and guilty of `indecent` behaviour. What does `indecent` mean anyway? I find it hard to imagine why a wife would be `lewd`--and also hard to imagine `lewd` wives in modern day life. What does being lewd and indecent mean? 1. Watching porn (e.g., modern Hindi movies) 2. Cracking jokes about her husband`s abilities in bed 3. wearing revealing clothes? 4. Flirting with other men.

Ok, usually apart from item 3., men are most often lewd. Point me to the verse in the Quran about how a wife should deal with a man who is lewd and indecent.
1. Throw him out of bed 2. Marry again 3. Admonish him 4. Stop giving him food 5. Tell the world.... So where is this verse??

Re: # 22

Islamic jurisprudence applies the principle of reciprocity in formulation of laws; which means that an edict is true for either gender unless there is something that cannot be applied to both genders e.g. the laws regarding receiving Mehr or Alimony are applicable only to women while their payment is applicable only to men. In case one finds an ambiguity in the application of law in Qura`n, jurists refer to Hadith, which clarifies the ambiguity. These laws have been in practice for centuries now and most of the ambiguities have been addressed.

The meaning of the word ``lewd`` in the verse 4:34, as cited in the article has very specific meaning and the context of the verse makes it very clear that it means unfaithfulness due to `adultery`. And there is very specific reason that it is translated as such. The reason is that if a spouse accuses other of adultery in a court of law, the court refers to the act as an act of ``lewdness`` rather than adultery because the accuser does not have a proof other than his or her word. Therefore, court cannot impose the Hadd punishment of stonning to death. In such cases the court proceeds with the permanent sepration of the two spouses. Again the process is not called Talaq or Khula`a but it is referred to as Le`aan. In this process the accuser and accused both have to take an oath upon the name of Allah that they are truthful in their stance respectively and may Allah`s curse be upon that whoever is lying. After this the court annuls the marriage. Hence the word ``lewd` is from the legal jargon to give a specific meaning and not a literal one.

The verses following the 4:34 makes it very clear why the word `lewd` was used where the matters of appointing arbitors and procedures of Le`aan are discussed.

``As an aside, don`t some women get turned on `by a bit of rough`? ;-)``(Naqshbandi)

now naqsh -- that`s a male chauvinist pig kind of comment -- and no laughing matter -- in these days of spousal abuse -- you have to only look around at the abused muslim women shelters in Washington DC or in Philadelphia to understand the magnitude of the problem.

Re: # 23

can i smack my husband across the room if the bitch gets out of line?

Re: # 21

Let us suppose that a husband slaps his wife in the face, kicks her butt, and pulls her hair leaving no mark, please explain to me how would that woman prove her case in the court? The answer is, she cannot. Therefore, laws always are not enough or effective unless they are buttressed with strong moral values. Now imagine the same man who has fear of Allah in his heart, and love of our Master, Holy Prophet (pbuh); now every time he will try to raise his hand upon his wife, in his heart he would know that Allah is watching, and how would he face Holy Prophet (pbuh) on the Day of Final Judgement. So this fear of Allah will prevent him from committing a crime, for which he will definitely go unpunished in a court of law.

Having said that, the adultery is a very serious situation. Suppose the same man finds his wife in bed with his friend having the orgasm of her life - what would he do. Walk away? Join? or in a blinding rage get mad and kill both of them? The rage therefore is a human emotion that renders any human being lose control. Now suppose this man beats his wife up so badly, after finding her mid-coitus, that his beating leaves marks on her body. So if the case goes to court, and court finds out that man has transgressed the limits set by Allah he may be charged with second or third degree battery. But if his beating did not leave a mark on his wife, it is just her word against his, just as his word of accustaion of adultery is against hers. Then the court proceeds with the process of Le`aan (separation) as explained in my post below.

So the question is what constitutes beating lightly. The jurists of different times have tried to come up with an answer. Now suppose a man finds his wife in bed with another man, do you think this man would try to find a toothbrush or a miswak to address the issue. This is ridiculus. So the point is that the phrase `beating with brush` is only being used as an example to elaborate a subjective understanding.

I think the following hypothetical scenario explains the ponit even better.

Suppose a man enters his house along with an acquaintance and find the woman of the house in bed with the neighbor. The husband is enraged - he slaps her, pulls her hair, and kicks her butt but his beating does not leave any marks. Now if the case goes to court, the wife has an eyewitness (the acquaintance) who can testify that the beating occured. In that case the court would order an examination of the woman. Now if the woman has marks from the beating, the husband will be charged with battery and assault, but if there are no marks from the beating the man`s beating is overlooked because he did so in the moment of rage and yet he stayed with in the limits set by God.

Re: # 27

Shouldn`t the husband join in? Let`s say that he does, what`s the reward for that, under your Islamic laws?

oops! i did it again...

ladies and gentleman of the jury....surely the wink [;-)] after my last comment in post 17 should have let you know that that particular comment was not meant?

no one, i for one, am not advocating any kind of physical abuse whatsoever. i think my previous post should have made that clear. what i tried to do was explain rationally the traditional understanding of `daraba`. urstruly has done it much better but remember that is not the preferred action. remember the Messenger alayhisalam himself is the perfect example and he never ever beat--even lightly--any of his wives--upon them all be peace.

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by rough sex i did not mean violence okay. it means when you are both too horny to be bothered with foreplay and....

Re: # 28

I think you know very well about MY Islamic law; would you care to tell us YOUR Mirzai laws about orgies?

Re: # 28

so if you came home to find me boning your missus what would you do? join in or try to kill me?

Re: # 30

That was a sincere question. What you said (in your hypothetical example) was wrong on so many fronts. First of all, 6th century tribal code of Arabia should not be mistaken as divine code. If Quran stresses for Man to be the provider, shouldn’t that include satisfying one’s wife? And if she is cheating to get some more, why should she be beaten for it? why not ask to dissolve marriage? A man lifting his hand just because he might be physically superior to his wife is a pussy of the first degree and deserving of death by pulling his balls out of socket.

Re: # 25

if i recall correctly: actually yes. i woman came to the Habib complaining that her husband slapped her and Allah`s Habib said to her you should slap him back! aw kamaa qaala alayhisalatu wa salaam.

Therr is comon sayng NEVER say never .
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There are as many abused men ,atleast emotionally than physically ,as women .....And i can think of medical situation when uncosciousnes or cardiac arrest require sudden force or smacking....and i am not takimg the issue of abused women lightly....

Re: # 21

scout i didn`t say that: i said that the meaning of `daraba` is explained via the hadith and the toothbrush is mentioned in the hadith. remember quran and hadith are both sources of islamic law. sahih hadith is as important as quran since anything the habib said we have to accept since `he speaks not of his own desire but it is from his rabb`.

in short: hadith are explanation of quran by the prophet.

Re #33,

And if I recall correctly, verse 4:34 was revealed immediately after that woman`s question and the Prophet said, ``I willed one thing but Allah willed another`` and annulled his earlier judgement.
Strange hadith, that one.

Re: urstruly ``...yet he stayed with in the limits set by God``

So the limit set by God is to hit but leave no marks?

have any of you heard the song, `smack my bitch up` ? iby prodigy? it was controversial and had a desi girl in the video.

btw i dont like prodigy but thought it was relevant to this article!

naqshbandi #35: ``in short: hadith are explanation of quran by the prophet.``

this is historically incorrect.......hadith is information, collected by various individuals (bukhari being the most prominent), starting 200 years after the death of prophet mohammad.......hadith are, thus, based on pure hearsay, over two hundred years, across many countries........

.......there is absolutely no factual way to even remotely connect a hadith and actully confirm whether prophet mohammad ever uttered it.......there is no way to even validate that the names mentioned in the chain of individuals, to whom the hearsay is connected, are valid....

scout (new) #: ``what the....... are you for real? wait till i tell my husband this, he uses an oral b electric one which could hurt like hell``

when did you get married?

Re: # 39

not true,
.
the sahaba wrote down everything he said or committed it to memory.
the first collection of hadith was by imam malik who lived in madina with sahaba. and imam abu hanifa who was taught directly by six companions had an even earlier hadith collection.

Re: # 40

depends what he uses it for!

this is hilarious! Ali G -- British comedian on Women!

Re: # 39 bulleya

Iqbal said mard-e-nadaN par kalam-enarm-o-Nazuk bayassar. But let me try again.

The process of documenting hadith started during the lifetime of the Holy prophet (pbuh) with an expressed permission that he granted to Abdullah bin Masood(ra); the bulk of these ahadith (written by several scribes) remained avaliable in the forms of written collections well until Hilago invaded Iraq. centuries while some of them are still preserved in Turkey in the Topp Kappi museum. Now consider this:

Imam Abu Hanifa the greatest Muslim Jurist was born (699Ad-767AD) about 60 years after Prophet Mohammad (570-632) passed away; he personally met several companions of Prophet who had seen him in their lives and also the lives of four righteous Caliphs. By the time Imam Bokhari was born (810-870), all of his juristic work along with four other Imams, was already complete. So the laws based on Ahadith already existed before Bokhari started collating ahadith into one collection.

Please try to educate yourself before trying to be the Paatay Khan.

author says:

``Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:
Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat) ``

so if she had committed adultery, solution is not to beat her but have sex with her.
makes sense.
but may be she committed adultery because she was not gettign enough Daraba from her hubby.
that makes sense too.

don`t beat her....fck her! :)

Re: # 40

three years ago

Urstruly (#30),

By now you should know Ahmadi position: It is what Quran and the dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us … and not what fanatic ullema of yours force upon others.

Difference between the two is worth noting. No wonder you are always confused ...

+++

Naqsh (#41),

Sahaba writing down or memorizing everything the dear Prophet (pbuh) said … is an overly simplistic view, rooted in blind faith. It does not stand scrutiny of facts, reason, or human experience.

Tell a short anecdote to 20 people in a room, and you’ll probably hear 3 different versions by the end of the day. Over the next few days, 3 would become 7.

Furthermore, it is extremely difficult to capture exact details of what a person said, or accepted as valid, or encouraged … or said “no” to, or disapproved of, or severely discouraged … by words, body language, etc. Blindly accepting every documented hadith as perfectly valid is an erroneous approach.

From what I know, even Bukhari rejected majority of ahadith (over 90%?) he himself had initially recorded. This adequately underscores potential errors in ahadith. Even currently existing ahadith on certain matters contract each other. Furthermore several recorded ahadith contradict verdict of Quran.

Reason and good judgement are far more effettive tools in getting to truth of the matter. Blanket statements and blind faith eventually lead one to ignorance.

Urstruly (#44),

Like Naqsh, you too are painting with too wide a brush.

You addressed “bulk of ahadith”, while claiming that “some” are still preserved. Ironically, it is not the bulk of ahadith, but a few odd ones that are used by corrupt ullema to twist teachings of Islam.

“Bulk” of immigrants in the US are legal. “Some” of them are even well educated. Does this mean all immigrants are “legal” and “educated”? I don’t think so.

Your reasoning has too many gaps.

+++++

Abu Hanifa was born 67 years after demise of the dear Prophet (pbuh). That is, by the time Abu Hanifa was an adult of 33 years of age, a whole century had passed since the demise of dear Prophet (pbuh).

A century is a long time, my friend. It is futile to argue against errors that could very well have crept in people`s recollections, narrations, and documentation. Then there is always the possibility of people deliberately making up ahadith to serve their own agendas.

Abu Hanifa meeting with several 80+ year old companions of dear Prophet (pbuh) does not mean much either. Big deal! I meet plenty of people every day that easily mix up facts, dates, and what was said and done. And they are nowhere close to being 80 years of age!

+++++

Reason and good judgment are far more effective at discovering truth of the matter. Blanket statements and blind faith do not cut it. Try to be somewhat intelligent at what you preach and believe ...

Excellent article !!!

Question is , is it OK to hit woman in Islam or in any other region or religion?

Let me make it simple. Though fanatic Mullahs in Islam have made it extremely complicated, who have nothing else to do except for thinking about creating fuss and lying about Quranic verses in their own convoluted ways.

Their stupid and barbaric kind of Islam only revolves around women, their basic intentions to live are to give brutal and inhumane slogans to mal treat and disrespect all women folks. These evil mullahs are brutal animals who feel extremely insecured from women, who have dirty and vulgar minds , always spewing venoms against women, treating women as half humans is their basic goal. They always target innocent women and suppress their already suppressed minds. They are just pigs with filthy minds, who can`t view women as an equal human being, they treat them as their inferior commodities.

And, then they claim Islam is the only religion who gives equal rights to women, who treats women with respect and decency............WRONG , ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

I have never seen a single example of such behavior in any so called Islamic country...

And,when they are asked to explain their behavior , their stupid and senseless basis is either convoluted Quranic versions(self created versions) or false Hadiths.

When I read Quran with translations from A-Z, I do not find any of such propaganda against women folks created by these beasts, called Mullahs. I don`t believe in Hadiths........Why? simply b/c majority of them I strongly believe are FALSE and were self created by these barbaric mullahs just to play ugly mind games with women to control them, to harass them and to abuse them for their own selfish inhumane needs.

Women are treated inhumanely in almost all Muslim countries, among such countries , top of the list countries are, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Jordan, Syria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Almost all Middle Eastern countries, Nigeria, Bosnia etc, etc, etc.................In all of these Muslim countries, more than 90% of women have had abuse either being beaten, mental abuse, raped, strangled or acid burns, in some areas, they were mutilated by chopping off their body parts...............And, in majority cases, the women abusers are their own husbands, fathers, brothers, or their close family male relatives and the more disturbing fact is those women are so much mentally suppressed that they accept all this as a normal behavior..............Don`t go far, I just returned from Pakistan last week, what I saw and heard with my own ears, majority of women were telling me, they are very lucky to get married with their husbands, who support their basic needs and BEAT them very occasionally. Very passive aggressive behavior, tsk, tsk, tsk..........they are brainwashed, they are unable to view them as equal to men, they have accepted this abuse as normal.....that`s the reason, Pakistan is down the drain...............it sucks.......and sad..............Not only that I have seen three women, who jumped to clean their husbands shoes with clothes while husbands were wearing the shoes.............and they felt proud about it.............they considered themselves lucky, while I was feeling sick and sad for those suppressed women.......whose minds are unable to think beyond what they are taught right from their childhood..........Females in all these Muslim countries have seen their own female relatives, mothers to get abuse at the hands of their male relatives, and this is not a single case, it is widely spread all over their communities...........they are also seeing the suppressed role models and they accept their role as normal to be abused and be beaten by their male counterparts. Their female counterparts fakery sympathize with them for being abuse and beaten, but, at the same time they teach them that this is normal in Islamic society and it is their normalcy to accept this as normal part of their life cycles............

There are also quite disturbing facts about mal treatment of Muslim women in Muslim countries. Women having extra marital affairs are permitted to kill by their male relatives.

In Pakistan, women are held in prison for extra marital sexual affairs even if they are raped, they are considered adulteresses...................rapists roam free in Pakistan`s streets to rape and abuse more women, b/c they have to bring 4 MALE witnesses , AND 8 FEMALE witnesses ( female is half human in their kind of Islam) who can state that they saw penetration(which is impossible to bring), and they ignore the beating part of abused women beaten up by their abusers, so, this is an example of how these Pseudo Islamic societies not only accept women beating at the hands of men, but, also fully support the men to beat the women. They are the NORMS of these barbaric countries.

If a Muslim man feels any kind of insecurity by women or even if they hear any woman raising voice against their whims or if they feel little snubbed in anyway by a woman or a little girl, they are allowed to beat them up to any extent they like....................Just to control them and enslave them..........

The most disturbing fact is , when and If asked , why they beat women folks...........they don`t accept it.

They start giving fake examples of European and American current cultures , how they manipulate their women folks and we`re much better and we respect our women...................



Well, It is crystal clear, that women in all these Muslim countries are allowed to be beaten up, if, men think these women are being rude...............to them.......and not only that women are considered half human in such Islamic countries..............................Just sad facts..................

swarrier,swarrier, swarrier,

I am not talking about Sheddis or siddis as you call them. They are there and are new arrivals. But I am actually talking about people Sindhis call Dravidian. They dominate the Dadu district but also live in Larkana, and Tharparkar districts too. They are not Sheddis. They are dark but their negroid features have softened like the people in South India. They were the original Sindhi who perhaps also lived in Moenjo dero and other areas around it. Sindh too had waves of people coming from all over place from central asia to south India.

#50 is not me. its some chowk bug..my guess its HP post.

i have a 2 questions for urstruly.

1. what are the injuctions for a wife/wives if they find their husband indulgin in ``lewd`` behavior?

2. should the husband not go find out the ``root-cause`` for wifes lewd behavior before taking action? there must be some hadith of this form among the large number of hadiths.

thanks, i will take the answers off-line,
jang

jang

Hadiths are false, they are absolutely NOT true representations of Islam. So, they are nullified by civilised world.

naqshbandi #41: ``the sahaba wrote down everything he said or committed it to memory.
the first collection of hadith was by imam malik who lived in madina with sahaba. and imam abu hanifa who was taught directly by six companions had an even earlier hadith collection.``

can you tell me where these are.......have they been carbon dated to establish their authenticity.......actually before that, can you tell me where i can go to see the artifacts that have recorded hadith from the time of prophet muhammad....

i have had this discussion with a lot of people.......and everyone gives round about answers.......i am assuming you don`t know for certain who committed something to memory or did not, if their are no artifacts to prove it..........someone has simply told you that people committed something to memory.......

if i said that no one committed anything to memory and that it is only a myth that they did, what could you provide to disprove it.......

as i mentioned it is all hearsay.....could be true, could be false........there is nothing solid to prove it is true........

bulleya # 53

YUP. You`re right. Not only right, but, hitting the right nerve. As a matter of fact, I don`t believe in hadiths at all. And that doesn`t mean that I am not muslim. I am more and better muslim than any of these pseudomullahs with their neoislam(a new religion).

Hadiths , created by these mullahs are another reason to give them a shelter to find an excuse to mal treat women folks........................

sattar, 47, and zeena -- pls educate yourselves about hadith:



Compilation of Quran and Hadith

Several hadiths in the Sahihs and Sunan show that the Prophet MHMD ordered certains Companions to write down something or everything he said.

The Prophet MHMD first forbade the writing of hadith so that people not confuse it with the Qur`an. He then allowed or ordered some Companions to write hadith when there was no risk of confusion.

These hadiths take precedence over the reports that mention an accross-the-board prohibition of writing for several reasons: the ``write`` reports are of a higher order of authenticity; the ``do not write`` reports are abrogated; the ``write`` reports are confirmed by the abundance of written reports from the Companion-generation manuscripted by their first-century students.

See below, the documentation on several first-century collections.

...

Abu Dawud died in 275, al-Bukhari in 256 and Muslim in 261. For one, Malik and Ahmad`s collections preceded all of them but the writing of hadith began long before all five.

Among the manuscripted hadith collections of the first Hijri century are:

1. `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As (d. 63), al-Sahifa al- Sadiqa, originally containing about 1,000 hadiths of which 500 reached us, copied down by `Abd Allah directly from the Prophet - upon him blessings and peace - and transmitted to us by his great-grandson `Amr ibn Shu`ayb (d. 118);

2. Hammam ibn Munabbih`s (d. 101 or 131) al-Sahifa al- Sahiha which has reached us complete in two manuscripts containing 138 hadiths narrated by Hammam from Abu Hurayra (d. 60), from the Prophet - upon him blessings and peace;

3. The lost folios of Aban ibn `Uthman (d. 105) the son of `Uthman ibn `Affan (d. 35), from whom Muhammad ibn Ishaq (80-150/152) narrated;

4. The accomplished works of `Urwa (d. ~92-95) - the son of al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awwam and grandson of Asma` and `A`isha the learned daughters of Abu Bakr the Truthful. `Urwa ordered them burnt, after a lifetime of teaching from them, during the sack of Madina by the armies of Syro-Palestine under Yazid ibn Mu`awiya in 63;

5. Muhammad ibn Shihab al-Zuhri`s (d. 120) Sira, from which Ibn Ishaq also borrowed much;

6. `Asim ibn `Umar ibn Qatada ibn al-Nu`man al-Ansari`s (d. 120 or 129) Maghazi and Manaqib al-Sahaba, another principal thiqa source for Ibn Ishaq and others;

7. `Abd Allah ibn Abi Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn `Amr ibn Hazm al-Ansari`s (d. 135) tome, another main source for Ibn Ishaq Ibn Sa`d, and others;

8. The most reliable Sira of the Madinan Musa ibn `Uqba al-Asadi (d. 141), praised by Imam Malik and used by Ibn Sa`d and others.

Re: # 53

see my post 55.

zeena -- to reject ALL hadith in toto is kufr.

#55 Naqshbandi sahib

Please, educate yourself about NOT creating false Hadiths. I do not believe in Hadiths, even if you try to brainwash me for the next Million years.

Thanks

And I won`t waste a single moment in reading these false hadiths in guiding me. I have my own good mind, God, Quran(the real version) and my own soul and my strong upbringing with equal rights for all humans regardless of any gender.........................

Re: # 52
just dont oversimplify the issue of Hadiths of the holy prophet[pbuh].how can u say they

are all false?yes there are many fabricated hadiths but it does not mean that hadith has no

worth in our religion.The problem is that most of the Hadiths are taken out of context and

are manipulated suited to the preconcieved notions of the reader.great care must be taken

to understand the environment in which hadiths are being recorded and the metal level of

the people prophet[pbuh] was addressing to.Hadith are there for the general guidanc but

mullahs have made each one them an independent and isolated proposition rather than

deriving a philosophy of general guidance taking all of them together.There are many apparantly contradictory hadiths there but this contradiction is not strictly of formal or logical nature and should not be treated in that way.

they are dealing with human psyche.it dependes on the mental level of the listeners of the sayings of the prophet[pbuh]Prophet[saw] was a very pragmatic man.

He knew the social environment and the intellectual competence of the people of his time.that`s why he would choose the words and phrases which can be understood easily by even an ordinary man and woman.as for the issue of woman is concerned

.well not all women are angels and all men dogs and bully.prophet[pbuh] teach women according to their psyche.

#56 Naqshbandi sahib

In my pov you are KAFIR, who is creating false hadiths to brain wash innocent humans.

Who are you to label me a kafir.......who are you to call me kafir with NO reason.

See this is the idiotic kind of barbaric pseudoIslam with mullahish contents to be self righeous and calling others with their own minds, kafirs............rubbish.

#58 philosopher

Yes, I nullify them all, b/c MAJORITY of them are FALSE. And are created to create all these barbaric actions against humans in general and against women in particular.

So, there is absolutely NO proof that they are the basis of Islam. They are out dated and false................So, best is to nullify them all.

oh boy - another article on koran, hadith and all that bedouin bullsh!tt... come on... give us a break...

#61

mohar11 sahib

Exactly..................give us a break from mullahish FASCISM. Fascist Mullahs are the main culprits for the terrorist activities around the globe and they are solely responsible for the miserable conditions of women folks in these countries.

Re: # 62 zeena

you yourself are behaving like a mullah.with due respect you are also fanatic.rather than giving reason to validate your claim you are rejecting all hadiths dogmatically.i

know you love islam but love evry thing that is part of islam.dont pick and choose like mullahs.

As i have said there are many fabricated hadiths but there are valid too.they must be seen in the context of the of that environment and the people Holy prphet[PBUH] was addressing to.

Hadith is a very important collection to understand the spirit of the religion but we should take as general guiding principle.we should look how prophet[pbuh] did something not what he did.He was addressing a society of bediouns.they were not intellectual or educated folk.


you know even today many educted people are unable to understand simple facts and the usage of language.the mess that mullah create is that they take every hadith literaly and make it an idependent propsotion and only to worsen the situation they derive conclusion from it.

we should take all hadiths in context and try to understand the spirit of the religion not the words.why are studying every thing with women`s perspective rather looking at religion and the sayings of the Holy prophet[PBUH]?
regards

Zeena, and other hadith deniers,do you believe in ALL of the Koran?



Allah says in Quran: “[2:129] Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them: for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”

They keyword here being that the messenger is to teach them the book AND impart wisdom upon them. Even the Sahabah had problems understand some of the language of Quran.

In sourat Al-Hashr Allah tells us: “[59:7] So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you.”

He also says: “[4:65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.”

Finally, Allah says: “[4:59] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.”


Overall, I believe it is blasphemy on Allah subhanahu wa taala to believe that he sent an irrelevant or faulty messenger. If the messenger was irrelevant and added nothing to the religion, then why didn’t Allah send down the book in one piece? Why pass it to us through a messenger?

Re: # 31

Naqshay, it depends on how cute you are. I may decide to actually do you too. I would never kill you. Killing is haram in my faith.

Naqsh (#55),

Perhaps you should educate yourself first. Best human efforts remain prone to errors. You continue to deny this and dance around the issue.

For example, it is futile to argue that all immigrants in the US are legal since there exists a well-structured immigration system. One could discuss the bureaucracy of immigration, how it is implemented, its checks and verification system … but we all know that millions of illegal immigrants live the US today.

+++++

So what does this tell you?

Granted, people made efforts to capture ahadith as best as they could. This did not necessarily result in a fool proof system. Bulk of ahadith are consistent with teachings of Quran, just like most people residing in the US are legal residents. The system largely (although, not completely) worked in both cases.

However, it is the few odd ahadith that are used by ullema to overturn Quranic teachings. And this is the heart of the matter that you continue to deny.

+++++

The laundry list of people you mentioned still relied on combination of documentation, narrations, and memory. If you tell an anecdote to 20 people in a room, very soon there would be several versions of this anecdote floating around.

And we are talking about tens of thousands of ahadith! Even Bukhari discarded thousands of ahadith because they could not be verified. There is no magic here. Human communication is far from perfect; insisting that it was perfect 1400 years ago, for 150 years, does not add up.

Re: # 64 naqshbandi saheb

it is not to say naozoobilah that prophet[pbuh] is faulty but people who are quoting Him might be faulty,intentinaly or unintentionaly.As for the verses you have quoted,well i dont see anything which is asking the believers to follow the every thing that is claimed to be hadith.

Even the holy prophet[pbuh] himself says that if u find any hadith which is contradictory to Quran ,throw that hadith on the wall.

Quran is complete but whatever [hadith]is conflicting with the Quran can not be accepted.so why shouldnt we take Quran as the ultimate criterion and hadith as general guidance not as something literal.not all of them valid.even u wont deny that.

imam bukhari said,that ``,in my opinion``these hadiths are valid.how can rely on them?we should be careful.for example the punishment of stoning is not there in the Quran,in fact its contradictory with it.why should create confusion.let the Quranic injunctions unequivocally prevail.

Re: # 62

yep... down with mullahs and their medievalism...

#63 philosopher
With all due respect, you too, are behaving like Mullahs, now. Trying your best to make me believe in Hadiths.

I didn`t argue with you. If you wish to believe in HADITHS, go ahead believe in`em by all means, but, please pretty please , do not try to brainwash me.

I hold my beliefs quite strong for myself only. I speak for myself and for those miserable suppressed women who are being beaten up by these beasty mullahs in the name of convoluted verses of Quran and false hadiths.

I don`t need Hadiths to guide me. I have my own clear mind to guide me, what`s wrong and what`s right?

Why don`t you guys brainwash those mullahs who are the main reasons of women suppression and oppression in so called Islamic countries with middle eastern cultures.

#64 Naqshbandi sahib

I don`t believe in CONVOLUTED translations of Quran. I only believe in Quranic verses clear from all these complications and dogmas........................So, don`t waste your precious time upon me................Thanks

Try to do something positive for those poor , oppressed and miserable Muslim women who don`t have any say for their rights.

Alright folks

If, Mullahs Islam, Hadiths and their convoluted Quranic versions are the only answer to all the problems , then why 90% muslim women in those muslim countries(Pakistan on top list along with saudi Arabia and Iran) are leading half human lives? Why their lives are suppressed? Why these men treat them like their slaves?

Why women are given NO right in their kind of Islam?

Why muslim men are allowed to beat women?

Why muslim women can only get 25% of their inherited property? And their men get half 50 % of the property? Pathetic......

There is nothing that can explain such questions. There is nothing that can justify such beatings, there is nothing that can solve these problems......................sad facts........

Re: # 70zeena

like every woman on this planet you are too emotional and simple and ,mind,i love them for that.

because of the stupid atittude of some ignorant mullahs[though its a tatolougy to say ignorant mullah] you are gonna deny the whole collection of Hadiths.

i said we have got be carefull in folowing hadiths coz not all of them are authantic but there is no reason on this earth to reject them altogether.its blasphamy.


how can u claim your love for islam when you are not accepting those injunctions which dont suit to your preconcieved notions?


why are showing pick and choose atittude?if we reject all hadith how would we know about the life and seerah of the holy prophet[pbuh]?

as i said we should take hadiths as general guiding priciples not as something which has absolute status like the Quranic injunctions.

regards

#71 philosopher

Believe me I am not simple, emotional and neither I am discussing your love or hate here.

I am much more practical, least emotional, much more smarter than the men of my caliber(My educational background along with my family background) and I don`t seek any love from any of you guys.

I don`t need to convince you for what you believe. And, mind you I will never ever be convinced by the very facts, which I see with my own eyes.

I am not living in a fools paradise , I am a modern woman with open and liberal mind of my own, who doesn`t need any Hadiths to guide me, who knows the difference between right and wrong, good and evil................So, what`s the point here of bringing this Hadiths issue with me?


Hadiths are unable to solve women issues. Period. They are failed dogmas....................

Rather they are the reasons to give these muslim men to make all these excuses to mal treat women. So, why not reject them all, so, that there w`ll be no chance of their implementations at all and hiding behind them for suppressing the women.

Yes, I have every right to pick and conceive any notion that makes me feel strong woman among miserable muslim women masses.

Yes, I will pick what suits me and reject what doesn`t. What`s wrong with that?

My pick doesn`t harm any one. My pick is for the betterment of humans, not for proving that women are half humans. Thanks

All laws, dogmas, theories are for the betterment of humanity. When any law, dogma, theory fails to serve it`s purpose then by all means it should be rejected.

At any cost we have to serve the humanity, to make humans comfortable and @ ease, not to complicate the matters and make their lives miserable and more difficult.

Re: # 72 zeena

if you said all that as a non-believer i wont surprise but i know you love islam and that`s what makes me stunned about you.

you love islam and still have pick and choose approach.why should we blaim mullah for that.this atittude is every where,irshad manji,isra noumani who are making lesbianism and illegitimate children the part of islam also claim to be humanist.

why dont this kinda people reject religion altogether?

ok there are many people who dont believe in hadith but what about the Quranic injunctions would you intrepret them suited to your preconcieved notions?eating away the wisdom behind it?

what kind of a muslim are you.i m not saying you should have blind faith but at least interepret Quran considering it to be the word of Allah almighty.

regards

Re: # 6

http://www.mynation.net/mynews/



498a is anti human rights for the accused because :

1. It enables violation of the privacy, sanctity and the dignity of the innocent families, and throws the very existence of Indian families to the vultures in the police force, criminals in the society and at the mercy of the lawyers and the inefficiencies of the court system in India.

2. It makes the accuser the prosecutor, the judge and the jury all rolled into one.

3. It makes all the families subject to destruction on the whims and fancies of criminals (girl and her families who want to get rich).

4. It has no safeguards for the innocent.

5. It facilitates elder and child abuse by the accusers without any fear of punishment.

6. It lays down no automatic punishments for the UN-scrupulous accuser(s), even after it is proved that the accused persons were innocent and the complaints were fraudulent.

7. It rewards frauds and cheats for using the law.

8. It provides monetary inducements for corruption, falsehoods, revenge, blackmail and extortion; therefore an invitation to the increasing crimes in India.

9. It is a monster and menace, created by the law; and does not belong in any civilised and democratic society as it smells like fascism.

10. The guilty who make frivolous and scandalous complaints or start false prosecutions get off Scott free at the cost and expense of the public exchequer

This law, therefore, must go lock stock and barrel, and replaced by a law that punishes only the guilty appropriate to their crime.

Otherwise, marriage may soon become a curio item from the past.

so...um...when is someone going to answer the question raised by other female interactors, i.e. what does a wife do when her husband is guilty of `lewd` behaviour?

as for whether some women like it rough, thats between them and the men who serve them innit.

Re: # 76 shandana

the Question was raised by saima shah.well the answer is in the 127 th to 130 verse of the sura nisa[4:127-130]the word used there for his excelencey husband`s lewdness is ``nashooz``it is the same word used for wife`s lewdness.though male scholar translate that word as ``disobedience``completly ignoring the fact that similar word is for husband as well.

it is said that in the case of husband` nashooz first of wife should consult him and try to solve the problem and if she wanna continue marriage compromise on some issues.but if doesnt help she can ask for khula.

these are general principles.normaly Quran commands people to follow the ``uraf``or the good norms of their societies and ask them to use common sense and settle their problems lovingly.

but if the situation arises to that level than they are allowed to take legal actions.islam has got its own complete legal structure.you have got to look into it seriously.

regards

i think Zeena summed everything up quite nicely:

``And I won`t waste a single moment in reading these false hadiths in guiding me. I have my own good mind, God, Quran(the real version) and my own soul and my strong upbringing with equal rights for all humans regardless of any gender.........................``


well said Zeena

as far as what women should do if their husband`s exhibit ``lewd`` behavior, since a Quranic explanation will be ambiguous to say the least, i vote for a second circumcision.

#74 philosopher

You see you are now more fanatic than these mullahs. You`re number 1 mullah. Who are you to question my religion? who are you to question my personal belief?

You have the worst approach towards women folks. This is the appraoch where suppression and oppression and physical abuse starts. Your approach is controlling women folks according to your own wills.

Lesbianism, gays, sexuality this is not the topic of this article. But, If you wish to start all this nonsense, then be my guest.

In my opinion if you`re gay, I won`t object it. That doesn`t make me believer or non believer. Who are you to judge me?

If, I am being labelled by you for rejecting all those nullified Hadiths and convoluted interpretations of Quran which serve no purpose except to make mess against women folks, then why will I accept them?

If, you`re labelling me a simple and emotional persona based on my raising voice against oppression of muslim women in so called barbaric muslim countries, then I am proud to be simple and emotional in that very aspect.

If, someone is prostitute , that is her profession. Who am I to teach her the moral values?

You tell me how much practical work have you done for these oppressed and beaten up muslim women, except for sitting in your room and typing few stupid words about some old , false Hadiths and dogmas, which are as much injurious to muslim women as your repetitive mullahism is.....................

I myself has gone door to door and even to far flung areas to help these oppressed women mentally, morally, spiritually, physically and financially. No Hadith taught me to do so, I did it on my own terms listening to my inner voice.

Why these Hadiths didn`t serve those oppressed and beaten up Pakistani women, who are waiting for someone to help them out of those cruel clutches of men like you?

Where are you when the same Paki poor women are being acid burned by their husbands and father in laws ? I feel their pain. I helped and opened up a big burn center for all those miserable burn victims. I go myself physically with out any help of any NGO to listen to their problems and to make them feel they are not alone in this war against these pseudoIslamic mullahs like you.

And you`re here to question my belief in God and labelling me non believer............Well, your typing of few words here on this anon web site don`t make any difference to those oppressed muslim women........................

Now, just focus on these old dogmas called Hadiths which are no more valid. And, pray day and night that your kind could survive, b/c we won`t let that happen any more. We`ll try our best to eradicate all such evilish customs based on pseudoreligious dogmas, which are nothing, but, farce of curse which target women folks only.

Re: # 80zeena
i love the way women make mountain out of molehill.i love them.

where have i questioned your faith?i have never said that you are non-believer on the contrary i said you love islam i know that but i was surprised the way you were justifying pick and choose approach.

doent it mean that islam as whole is not suitable for permoting human values?i dont think u would say that.i believe that islam in its essence both in letter in spirit is humanistic if we ignore the inrpretations of ignorant mullah.where have i admired mullahism.

yes i am proud to be a Man coz i know a real man is the one who respects woman.

there is a saying of the holy prophet[pbuh]that ``honarable man always respects women``

what abt this hadith?

i know there are false hadith.i dont believe in all of them. what i m saying is that we should take them as general guidance and should learn how prophet[pbuh]dealt with the propblems of that society.

its not that we should make every hadith an independent proposition.

i have never Questioned your faith in islam.i know you deeply love islam.you sound to me a real practicing muslim both spirtualy and social.

yes i confess i havent done anything for women folk coz i m not married yet.lol.

regards

#81
philosopher sahib

1:-[[yes i confess i havent done anything for women folk coz i m not married yet.lol.]]

Where on the earth it is written that you can only do something good by getting married to her?

You still can raise voice and help those poor women folks who really need your help in so many ways........

2:-[[i love the way women make mountain out of molehill.i love them.]]

On the contrary, it is opposite, majority of men make mountain out of a mole. Just look here on this board, majority of men are doing what you accused women of. Just go to other boards, 98% of men are busy day and night making all the big mountains out of small molehills...........................

3:-[[ i know there are false hadith.i dont believe in all of them. what i m saying is that we should take them as general guidance and should learn how prophet[pbuh]dealt with the propblems of that society. ]]

If you know there majority of false hadiths which are the weapons used by these ignorant mullahs for the oppression of women and for beating up the women folks then why not reject them all and guide your own good will for the betterment of women..................

Prophet(PBUH) dealt with that society, time is changed, we should change now. We can`t apply same old dogmas with the current society and current times...............

4:-[[yes i am proud to be a Man coz i know a real man is the one who respects woman.

there is a saying of the holy prophet[pbuh]that ``honarable man always respects women`` ]]

Yes, If you`re a good and noble man and respect women folks, why will you need this hadith for your guidance? You`ll respect women anyway................................

Again to you, your belief and to me mine................Thanks

scoutie

Thanks for your support for women folks............

Re: # 82zeena
now i will never dare to reply your posts.i dont know wanna hit the hornets net.

regards.

#84

[[[hornets net]]] LOL.........

Oh a little smack on the ass never hurts...unless you want it to.

zeena

you visit

www.takeninhand.com you will find realy intresting stuff about women and the experiences of the women.

best

sattar mian,

i accept your basic argument that not all hadith are reliable due to the method of oral transmission. yet do you think the islamic scholars were unaware of this? why do you think the whole body of science known as ilm al hadith and usul al hadith and ilm al rijaal [science of hadith narrators] etc. all developed? The hadith sciences have an incredibly detailed classification system in which not only the reliability of each transmitter/narrator is checked but also the text itself to see if it conforms with the quranic text.

you yourself admitted that imam bukhari, for example, rejected many hadith. and you admit that most hadith are okay.

doctrine [aqida] is only allowed to be based on those hadith which are known as sahih = rigorously authenticated and mutawaatir = those with so many different narrators that it is impossible for it to have been forged. for example if one person says you said something it might not be true but if 20 different people all independently verify you said exactly the same thing then it makes it very likely you did say it.

so, respect that these issues you are right to come up did exist but those far more brilliant than you [or me] developed a rigorous methodology to deal with them. remember also that these people were extremely pious and would never knowingly falsify something possibly said by the Messenger. To give you an example, it is known that when teaching hadith imam abu hanifa would perform fresh wuzu and put on clean clothes and perfume himself each time he narrated a single hadith.

the imams of hadith were so scrupulous --precisely to avoid the kind of problems you mentioned--that it boggles the mind.

there are over 50 classifications of hadith!

Re: # 88 naqshbandi sahib

can you plz tell me the validity of the hadith of the verse of rajm which was quoted by the hazrat umar[ra].is it valid?if it is ,wont it create confusion?you know what i mean and want to say.its a very sensitive topic.plz reply it.

regards

zeena: how do you know that that is a saying of the holy prophet [peace be upon him and his family and companions]? i thought you said you dont believe in any hadith at all?
you`ve just contradicted yourself!

and the reason women are treated so badly in most muslim countries is not because of islam or because of the ulama but it is because [a] most people are ignorant of islamic teachings [b] the influence of local traditions which tend to take precedence over islam [c] misogyny in society.

**********************

btw those translations of the koran were not convoluted. you can look up the same verses in any translation you like.

here`s a serious question for all ye fairer sex folks: why is it that so many women --and this is documented--all over the world, continue in relationships in which they are physically abused?

to quote don corleone--`` a man who hits a woman can never be a real man!``

some wisdom:

btw is it true if a lady says `no` itmeans `maybe`, `maybe` means `yes` and a lady who says, `yes` is no lady!

:D

philosopher bhai.

i am not a hadith scholar but here is some info from someone who is learned whose opinion i trust as it based on that