Five Years on - Lessons unlearned

Khan Sahib, On one side analysts love to quote ``Muslim World`` as you do

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careful study in the Muslim world of surveys, electoral results and yes even speeches by the minority who do support a strategy of violence shown that the demands are in fact much more reasonable. The demand of seeking the removal of all foreign forces, their bases and the cessation of western occupation and interference

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If there in fact was a ``Muslim World``, they would have done something to take care of their own. Sudan is a festering wound, and yet the ``Muslim world`` sits idly by, drinking gahwa (tea), and smoking hukkah pipes.

When you don`t stop criminal activity in your neighborhood, then someone else would come in to fix the situation. Off course then you would rouse up against this ``foreign`` intervention and create even more anarchy.

Why to worry about Sudan and Iraq. Let`s look at our own Pashtoons in FATA. Don`t we know how much suffering has been falling on poor Afghans? Don`t these FATA people know that majority of people in Afghanistan are Pashtoons. So in fact Afghan Pashtoons are the biggest target of lawlessness.

Still our FATA Pashtoons are allowing local and foreign elements to create anarchy in Afghanistan. These FATA militants have killed even our own army and FC soldiers. Why? Just because the army and FC are begging them to stop attacking Afghans.

As Pakistani Pashtoons are not willing to bring peace to Afghanistan, then guess what? Someone else (in this case NATO) has to come in to establish peace. Damn those foreigners.

.... But if I have to choose between BELIEVING the US govt. and AQ. I will believe the US govt........

Are you kidding me. You say 36 % I say 64% of the public has stopped beleing in the US government. Did you believe them when Collin Powell sat in the UN and told everyone how they had proof of WMDs in Irad. Dude your article was not bad but you just lost all credibility by making that moronic statement. You dont have to believe AQ but dont believe the US govt also. US citizens who live in America dont - then why do you?

#15 by GT

Thanks for the reference.

When someone says ``Either you`re with us or against us``, that doesn`t leave any room for those who neither belong in the former bracket nor the latter. As a result, it has pushed the former liberals/left-wingers firmly into the latter bracket because by no means can they justify being `with` them in what `they` are doing.

Zee:

In line with our discussion here, check out Irfan`s column in the Dawn today. His last paragraph:

``Meanwhile, the collateral damage multiplies in terms of anger and bitterness on both sides. Moderates in the western and Muslim worlds are being radicalised. Neutrality is no longer an option. So five years on, we can only conclude that the forces of Islamic extremism are winning. For the West, this is a war that cannot be won.``

Re: # 13 by zeemax:

I understand. I sincerely hope that others do too.

#12 by GT

Thanks for this sincere post. I think basically we`re on the same wavelength, but events have placed us in opposing camps due to exigencies of political existence. It is indeed pitiful it has to be that way.

Do read the last six paras of this when you have time.

Re: # 11 by zeemax`

Zee:

``But you haven`t commented on the rest of my post. Do look forward to your comments.``

That is because I agree with what you said here and what you have been saying for a long time. Thankfully Bush and Co. are starting to realize, but it is still late. Their policy is still way off and I may add stupid. Inspite of appeals by various Muslim groups, they are unwilling to change their methodology and are lumping all Muslims together (and they are doing so because they are arrogant, lazy and pathetic). What do you expect, Wolfovitch was their expert on the Middle East? They have no clue. It really hurts me to think that I may have to side with them in the upcomming fight (just as it may hurt you to side with AQ). But the fact of the matter remains that the world is being divided into two camps and you and I may have to choose sides. We can talk more about this somewhere else (though I do not know where).

``So you doubtless believed in the Iraqi WMD as well, as well as Iraqi involvement in 9/11.``

Absolutely not. Again due to my political beliefs. I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq, I believed then as I believe now that the Iraquis could handle things themselves. Iraquis have a HISTORY you see (not the one studied by Wolf. in Chicago) and the Middle Eastern civilization is not a `one big monolith`. I would not have even supported covert US interference in terms of allignment with particular Iraqui opposition groups and that is because I believe that bubba`s group lacks knowledge and intelligence. US has done a lot of harm to liberal causes around the world. Czechoslovakia, Iran (in the aftermath of the revolution) etc. And of course liberals are to blame for this, just like in the present situation. It is sad, but one has to choose between the lesser of two evils.

#10 by GT

Yaar GT, thanks for clarifyimg your position on this that it is political for you too. Fair enough. Now we both know where we stand so we can talk.

... your perception that OBL has not brought the fight to the US, it is just a USraeli conspiracy to finish off Islam....

I never said that. All I say, just as do the 36% americans, that the facts just do not add up to the bin ladens having done it. For all it may be, it may be some aliens.

.... But if I have to choose between BELIEVING the US govt. and AQ. I will believe the US govt........

So you doubtless believed in the Iraqi WMD as well, as well as Iraqi involvement in 9/11. Do you still believe that? Perhaps you would if your Government had not backtracked.

But you haven`t commented on the rest of my post. Do look forward to your comments.

Re: # 9 by zeemax:

Zeemax:

``I don`t know why you say : ``your claim that 9/11 is a hoax is nothing but an attempt to create confusion amongst your enemies; when 36% of the US population itself does not believe the official 9/11 version.``

What are you saying? You believe in this conspiracy theory because 36% of the US population believe so? A significant proportion of the world`s population believe in ten headed gods but you don`t. And don`t give me a scientific rationale, you do not have the required information to arrive at a scientific conclusion (your photographs not withstanding).

You are not fooling anyone. You are basing your assertion on your political beliefs. You are trying to perpetuate your perception that OBL has not brought the fight to the US, it is just a USraeli conspiracy to finish off Islam.

I don`t like governments. But if I have to choose between BELIEVING the US govt. and AQ. I will believe the US govt. It is political for me too, you see.

#6 by GT

It is high time that people realize that what is being called ``terrorism`` is nothing but a war imposed by a new political order.

I think the Bush speech yesterday made this realization upon the US administration sufficiently clear as follows:

``Do we have the confidence to do in the Middle East what our fathers and grandfathers accomplished in Europe and Asia?``

And:

``If we do not defeat these enemies now, we will leave our children to face a Middle East overrun by terrorist states and radical dictators armed with nuclear weapons``

Above makes it clear that now he understands the magnitude of the issue. Of-course he still uses Islam and terrorism interchangably to keep the US public scared, but he knows well enough that if US leaves the M.E, the region is bound to fall to domestic Islamist movements. The six-million dollar question is, however, how does he intend to maintain an open-ended presence there in the face of mounting casualties and adverse public opinion at home? The only way appears to be another catalysmic attack on US soil which will justify a full-scale invasion of the entire ME including Saudi Arabia by combined US and Israeli forces. This of-course will be world war III.

When quoting from various sources about Jihad, you fail to highlight the very significant point that even the stock CNN documentary on Bin Laden makes where he repeats on several occasions to the effect that if you attack us, we will attack you; if you target our women and children, we will target your women and children ... etc. Point is this this Jihad is not about expansionism, it is about preservation. Another point is that it is true in circumstances such as prevail in the Muslim world today, Jihad becomes incumbent on every Muslim, and is not a matter of choice.

I don`t know why you say : ``your claim that 9/11 is a hoax is nothing but an attempt to create confusion amongst your enemies; when 36% of the US population itself does not believe the official 9/11 version. I had also provided the link to a Time Magazine article on the other board. So who is trying to create confusion amongst whom?

The ancient Chinese warrior Sun Tzu taught his soldiers to ``know your enemy`` before going into war. For if ``you know your enemy and know yourself , in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.” The Americans and British alas still do not understand their enemy. Whether it be the governments, informed commentators or ordinary citizenry the lack of a comprehensive understanding of the Muslim world remains worrying. One could partly excuse why senior officials in 10 Downing Street and the West Wing had to rush to buy books on Afghanistan, Political Islam and Muslim groups following the events of September 11th .

You are contradicting yourself. If the British and Americans are rushing to buy books on Islam then they are trying to understand the enemy and trust me it is not going to be pleasant for you Muslims when they fully understand the enemy. British and Americans or the Anglo-Saxons take efforts to understand the enemey just enough so that they can be the masters and others their serfs. It is not just like that the British had an empire on which the sun never set including our subcontinent and both us Hindus and Muslims. The 20th century was America`s century and it became the richest and most powerful nation in the world. No, they won`t try to understand our feelings and emotions. They will learn just about enough that whom they can buy, whom they can throw crumbs at, and how to get those Mir Jafars and Jaichands to subdue their own people. For starters they know that it is easy to throw a few perks and bones at your Pakistani Army generals and viola they can control the entire nation of Pakistan.

However it is the failure to understand the mainstream demands of most in the Muslim world that has been the real failing of the War on Terror.

Again displaying the Bechara Musalman mentality. What have the Muslims done to understand their enemy or their neighbors or even their non-Muslim countrymen. For starters how many Pakistanis have read the Bhagvad Gita or Guru Grant Sahib. How many Muslims have tried to understand the history from the non-Muslim perspective? I agree that the West has been treacherous in dealing with us Easterners but the Muslims also have problems in getting along with their other compatriots as well like Hindus and Sikhs in the subcontinent, Buddhists in Thailand, Catholics in Philippines and so forth. Some people like the Chinese have truly understood the West and will not be subdued again. Some others like Hindus are mixed. Some have understood the West and some still live in the naive world and possibly will get enslaved again. Muslims are even below the Hindus in the sense that they still play the victim card and refuse to understand the realities. It is not surprising that the Muslims will get involved in fruitless violent confrontations and will get subdued in the end.

this is a well written piece - short and to the point. westerners are well aware of their kurtooth in the islamic world. thats why the goal of western policy for a very long time has been to prevent emergence of strong and independent muslim states. the brouhaha over iran`s nuclear program is a blatant display of this policy. also check out khujlee hizbullah`s success is causing to nytimes - supposedly the voice of gora liberalism:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/opinion/08fri2.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

``...A lot was finessed in the cease-fire resolution. That doesn’t mean Hezbollah should be allowed to grow even stronger``

interesting to note that its USraelis that have attacked lebanon multiple times and its USraelis that occupy arab lands. yet according to nytimes, its hizbullah that cannot be allowed to grow stronger.

i also found it interesting that blair on his current visit to the m.e. visited with parents of kidnapped israeli soldiers while he did not even discuss the plight of 5000-10000 palestinian prisoners rotting in USraeli jails. if this does not tell you the hatred goras have for us, i dont know what will.

for muslims best response will be to build military strength. for this muslims will have to unite. in addition fifth columnists who reside within muslim societies and who go around saying muslims dont need weapons should be confronted.

Re: # 3 by zeemax

Zee:

You are dot on. It is high time that people realize that what is being called ``terrorism`` is nothing but a war imposed by a new political order.

Yahyah bin Ali al Ghamdi wrote in the `Voice of Jihad`:

``Don`t you know that the clerics have stated that Jihad becomes a personal duty if the enemy raids the land of the Muslims. .... According to those (who disagree with this), a new formula should be put forth. ..... that Jihad will become a personal duty when the enemy attacks the land of the Muslims - only if the enemy can be repelled and vanquished, and only if the (Muslim) nation is completely prepared, and only if the ruler - and we do not know who this ruler is - will permit it ...``

Note the distancing from entrenched regimes. The new political order is also trying to cut across Muslim divisions. Here is what Bin laden says:

``If it is not possible to push back the enemy except by the collective movement of the Muslim people, then there is a duty on the Muslims to ignore minor differences among themselves; the ill effect of ignoring these differences, at a given period of time, is much less than the ill effect of the occupation of the Muslims` land bu the main Kufr. Ibn Taymiyya had explained this issue and emphasized the importance of dealing with the major threat on the expense of the monor one. He described the situation of the Muslims and the Mujahideen and stated that even the military personnel who are not practicing Islam are not exempted from the duty of Jihad against the enemy``

To mobilize, here is Bin Laden again:

``Al-Qaidah wants to keep Jihad alive and active and make it a part of the daily life of Muslims. It wants to give it the status of worship.`` (Ummat interview).

On the enemy, here is Zawahiri:

``In the wake of the USSR`s collapse, the United States monopolized its military superiority to dictate its wishes to numerous governments and, as a result, has succeeded in imposing security agreements on many countries. in this way the power of the governments that are affiliated with the United States grew in the sphere of pursuing the mujahideen in many countries. Doubtlessly this had an impact on the fundamentalist movement. Still this has been a new challenge that the Jihadist movement confronted with methods that can reduce its impact. It did this by turning the United States into a target.``

The new political order is also trying to distance itself from the old religious heirarchy. Here is what Bin Laden says about the 9/11 bombers:

``Those youths who conducted the operations did not accept any fiqh in the popular terms, but they accepted the fiqh that the Prophet Muhammad brought. Those young men, ... said in deeds, in New York and washington, speeches that overshadowed all other speeches made everywhere in the world. The speeches are understood by both Arabs and non-Arabs - even by the Chinese. It is above aa (what) the media said. Some of them said in Holland, at one of the centers, the number of people who accepted Islam during the days that followed the operations were more than the people who accepted Islam in the last eleven years. I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say: ``We don`t have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam.`` The event made people think ..... which benefited Islam greatly.``

People like you, echoboom, masadi etc. are the foot soldiers of this new, but still unorganized, political order. What you write, is quite similar to many of the quotes that I provide above. To the extent that this new political order threatens my world, I AM YOUR ENEMY. I hope others realize soon that this political order is not constituted only by turbaned Arabs in Afganistan, but has intelligent people like you and is lead by intelligent and articulate leaders. To that extent, your claim that 9/11 is a hoax is nothing but an attempt to create confusion amongst your enemies. Huntington was wrong (though Bin Laden supported him), it is not a fight between cultures but it is a fight with a new political order. For the sake of humankind, I hope the battle lines get drawn pretty soon.

This is classical Jamaat-e-Islaami, Muslim Broterhood propaganda material, blame everything on the west and their stooges thus discrediting any form of opposition to the religious parites and their agendas.

Fact is, the same religious parties who propagate the idea of rejecting everything western were the beneficiaries of western affluence in the war against communism. Today, they feel they can derail any movement which demands secular rights, non-violence, equal rights and embracing modernity by simply promoting populist idea. Had they offered alternatives which would appeal to the masses, things would be different. Unfortunately, they are just another bunch of opportunists.

I just came back from 9/11 memorial commemoration services held at the ground zero. It was solemn and it was moving. People who lost the loved ones could care less about how deep a Muslim shoves his head up Allah’s or Mohammad’s (PBUH) ass. Most could give a shyt about what anyone’s religion or faith is. There were Jews, Muslims, Wahabis, Hindus, Christians, all together remembering the death of the innocent who had nothing to do with any of it. Perhaps these Chooteeya Pakis would get a hint.

The biggest tragedy of 9/11 is the British Muslims. They were fuked up to begin with, now the whole world knows how fuked up they really are.

In these 5 years at-least the sound-bytes have evolved from `Islamic Terrorists who hate our freedom and liberty` to `Islamic Fascists who hate our freedom and liberty`. This appears to be a recognition that it is at-least a political movement, from the earlier version which made it out as a fanatical and mindless undertaking of a crazed few.

However the second part of the description i.e. `who hate our freedom and liberty` is more delusionary and dangerous than the mere name calling of the first. This part should read `who hate us because we took away their freedom and liberty`.

How long will that take?