Save this Cultural Heritage

Re: # 15
Shah ji, I agree, that sex industry should be viewed separately from the Music and the Dancing culture. I am sorry that I suggested that sex industry should also be preserved. I was wrong to suggest that. I personally have no issue with sex industry. I think it should be regulated, merely because it will go on, no matter what any one does about it. My concern is the deterioration of the Music and the Dancing culture. I think it should be preserved and promoted.

Re: # 12
Nadia, yep.. Beautiful poetry of Nasir Kazmi.

Re: # 13
Yeah But Masadi Sahib, I think we ourselves are responsible for killing these institutions. I don’t think we can blame externalities for that. I agree that sex trade should be controlled and alternative lifestyles be provided to sex workers, but what about dancing and music? These two should be preserved, because it took a thousand years to come to where we are now, and we shouldn’t let these trades die under some false pretense of religion.

nice article Kulharee.

bulldozing the olde city will be like bulldozing the soul of lahore. it was a horrendous thought in #11. blekh!

Nice article Kulharee...but when you tell these stories over a glass of Chevas Regal with your face half hidden in smoke rising from your cuban cigars..it sounds much better. Like every Punjabi I have 2 wishes...one to visit Lahore and 2nd to enjoy the entertainment at Hira Mandi.. Now that Musharraf has saved Lahore you guys save hiramandi few more years...bass main ayea ke ayea....kapRay sawaaN lai ne, jutti banwa lee ay, pagg rangwa lee ay..bass ticket lainee baaki ay.:-)

Kulharee writes <<< These two should be preserved, because it took a thousand years to come to where we are now, and we shouldn’t let these trades die under some false pretense of religion. >>>

Why does religion always translate into ``false pretense`` in your vocabulary? Of course music is a reflection of culture as are many other things which you find undesirable, but I`m sure in your sensibilities you wouldn`t like Usama songs praising his ``jihad`` being broadcast day and night or ``preserved`` in some madrassa or street block advertised for all to see and hear, other people have different sensibilities which need to be taken into consideration in a just balance sort of a way as well. Now we know that those you admire and work for, the cultural imperialists try to sweep everything away based on their own preceived superiority. If you think with parts of your anatomy other than the brain, you will come up with absurd recommendations, I suggest you kick start your brain and let the other parts be directed by it.

Respectfully submitted, (as Behram the bigot would say).

Re: # 22
You see Masadi Sahib, only a Mulla will go and tell the residents of Hira Mandi what to do and where to go, and you will never see a Kanjar (as you will) or a Mirasi go and tell a Mullah what to do and where to go. You see the difference? You see you religionists don’t get this simple message of “get the hell out of our lives”. Do you? But don’t worry, we all know, you don’t.

#16 by Kulharee on September 26, 2006 6:56am PT
Re: # 11

”HP Sahib, I am glad you had a few giggles on my expense.”

Kully Sahib, I first read giggle as gargles :)

I guess your commitment to Hira mandi is little too big for you to follow my thoughts on the whole thing. Hira Mandi is no cultural center. It is a brothel first and brothels move from one place to another depending on business. You can keep as many buildings in Hira mandi as you want, but if there is no business there, girls will move to the other areas. That is a fact that is bigger than any cultural value of the buildings where some girls live or do business. Those buildings are not monuments to have some historical value. If you have read my post, it would not escaped you that I mentioned saving historical places but there is no one on the face of this earth who could possibly prove that Hira mandi has equal or better historical value than for instance Shahi Qila or Ranjit’s tomb.

“you walk down in Hauptstrasse in Heidelberg, the newest building there is some 400-year old. People take pride in”

Sorry that wont cut it. How big Hauptstrasse is compared to old Lahore? Hauptstrasse is a mile long street, take a mile long of historical Lahore and save it if that helps you but saving the whole unmanageable walled city would be just waste of resources that can be put to some better use. The problems in the old walled cities are way beyond nostalgia or romanticism. Getting basic sanitation services alone to the walled cities is a gigantic task.

It is not only Lahore; these problems exist in every old city in Pakistan including Hyderabad, Peshawar and even the old Karachi itself.

“This type of thinking prevailed during the Taliban.”

Just shows your ignorance (I should rather use strong words but I will refrain from it). Walled city is no Moen jo dero or the Buddha’s stupa. It is not unique in any way. There are multiple of walled city spread around in the subcontinent that are exactly like old Lahore. There is no point in throwing inane like Taliban around w/o the context. It only shows that you cannot argue your case on merits.

“(I am also interested to find out where you came up with the stats suggesting that the majority of prostitutes moved to poor neighborhoods, because I have not been able to find any such work to suggest that.)”

80% of girls in Hira Mandi or any other brothel serve the poor lower class. Why would it surprise any one if they would prefer to move close to their customers instead of places such as Gulberg or Clifton where they would be completely out of place? I don’t know what you were doing walking in Hira Mandi, if you could not figure out this simple thing.

A word abt saving this music gharana or that music gharana.

That is pure bull. Music like any other art, changes with the time. You can respect those artists but doling money to them is pure non sense. You were quick to bring out Hauptstrasse in Heidelberg but how many musicians Germany or any other western country support financially once a particular genre of music or any other art goes out of fashion?

It is not a government’s job to support artists financially. If they can’t survive in their chosen business then they should look for something else to support their families. I guess most of them are doing that but a few are just whiners.

Re: # 24

HP Sahib, I am not necessarily arguing about preserving the buildings per say (however, that will be nice) but the culture of dancing and music. You seem to be going in a different direction. You seem to be stuck on “brothels” and “Prostitution” part, which is only a very small part of what Hira Mandi is all about. And I don’t think that it will be good idea to tell it to the natives of that place that their culture is less significant than the Shahi Qila or Masjid. And by the way, Shahi Qila has 4 courts dedicated to nothing but “music” and “dancing”. Please catch up on your history.

I take pride in telling my American friends that my mom’s kitchen utensils are older than their country. Please come on and show some pride in our culture and not let some Mullahs tell us what is acceptable and what is not. You may not approve of it, but it is our “heritage”.

Your other arguments about “it’s not government’s job to preserve” our cultural heritage are stupid to say the least. How do you think the Arts and Cultures survive?

its a fact that no classical music would survive without patronage of a state..western indeed did and continues to have such a patronage and indian did and continues to get it from all-india radio. now some of the indian classical is able to make it on its own due to middle-class patron prosperity, but prolly it would not have survived the post-raja period without all-india radio and some sarkari patronage. now one could argue that let the market forces rule, then the arguement is that its not worth preserving if it cannot survive on market forces alone.

Re: # 26

Jang Ji.. in case of Pakistan, if the State left it alone, will be a major victory for it’s survival and conservation. What is happening in Pakistan (in case of Hira Mandi) is that forget about State patronage, there is an effort to completely destroy it. Here, in the US for example, there is enough private support and funding for the culture, and very little is carried by the State, however, there is an endowment for the arts that helps promote classical and other genre of music. The music and dance industry of Hira Mandi is actually fighting for its survival. It has nothing to do with demand and supply as HP Sahib was arguing, but it is about an intensive effort on the part of the State to destroy it. That should be stopped in the name of God.

#27 kulhareeji, in the US besides state NEA, there are large endowments like carnagie who are like rajas who support the arts. there is no way the philharmonic would survive on gate-tickets and music sales. and then the europeans support arts strongly so that amricans can poach on the talent paid for by europan govt. so my case is still that its hard to allow classical music-dance to survive without big kadardans.

regarding state hostility to nach-gana in hira-mandi, you have alleged it but have given no examples or other kind of substantiation. so its unclear how exactly the state has been hostile?

#25 by Kulharee

“You seem to be stuck on “brothels” and “Prostitution” part, which is only a very small part of what Hira Mandi is all about.”

Seem to be stuck? Hira mandi is hira mandi because primarily it is a brothel. (Go to hira mandi in the evening sometime) People come to that place because they can have sex for money. Musicians and singers flock to the place because that is where they traditionally hawked their talents. I am kind of beginning to think that you either have never been to hira mandi or for some reason are bent upon making it some religious place. Only 20 percent of girls in Hira mandi or any other brothel in Pakistan were either singers or dancers or both and most of them were atrocious dancers and singers too. 80% girls in any brothel like hira mandi sell their bodies. Sex was the main dish there and still is. Singers and musicians lived off meat market’s earnings and played music for dancing and singing girls.

I think you have no idea abt what culture is all about. Singing and dancing are just one aspect of culture and mostly singers and dancers from brothels have very little impact on a county’s culture.

“I take pride in telling my American friends that my mom’s kitchen utensils are older than their country.”

You may take pride in old utensil but I would advise you to trash them as quickly as possible as you may already have bacteria in every part of your food if you are still using them. I would like see the face of your American friend after hearing abt the old utensils. I am sure he might have dropped his jaw so far down that it would have been hard for him to collect that back up.

“Your other arguments about “it’s not government’s job to preserve” our cultural heritage”

Now you prove once and all that you just lack the ability to even cover up your stupidity. Music is a profession and musicians are not entitled to a government pension if they are unable to make money off their skills. There are tonnes of people who fail in their chosen professions and it is not any government’s job to help every smalltime musician whose only claim to fame was a few songs or composing music for some dancing girl in a brothel. People that have talent get rewarded by many private organizations and individuals. governments’ employ some musicians and those guys are perfectly entitled to pension as part of their compensation for a lifetime of employment like many other employees.

Hira mandi is a place for entertainment. I am all for keeping it but shiat… I just can’t support governments paying whores, small time tabla and shehnai players or pimps. That is not sponsoring culture or preserving cultural heritage, it is sponsoring freeloaders.

# 12

Listen..YouAreNadia....

In the last shair of this ghazal, it is not ``iss shehr e baichargi``..... its ``iss shehr e bay charagh``. Shehr e baichargi....would be meaningless here. And its ``aa ay shab e firaq`` not ``ay shab e firaq`` which upsets the meter. The complete shair is:

``iss shehr e baicharagh main jaaye gi tu kahan
Aa, ay shab e firaq tujhe ghar hi lay chalain``

There are several other minor mistakes you have made in copying this ghazal. Well they are actually pretty major for a ghazal.

Jang Ji, it’s hard to point out how exactly the State is complacent in destroying this cultural heritage of ours, but here are a couple of hard facts: Once a year in February, an all night Tabla Recital will take place outside of Sheranwala Gate in the park, where Tabla Players will demonstrate their mastery of the craft. Well, it hasn’t happened in, oh, about 20 years. You can call it a Khomeini effect on our music. During Urs and Melas, it was common for Hira Mandi dancers to perform outside of Circus, etc., to attract people into coming in to watch the show, but now they can only perform in enclosed areas. You should read the books that I suggested. You will get a much better idea. What you are asking is akin to asking why don’t Christians in Pakistan join Jamat Islami? Even friggin PIA planes can’t take off without reciting half of Quran. So, there is not just ONE reason, but the whole anti-artist environment that is prevalent in the country, and State is either complacent, or is a silent Tamashbeen. Before long, Lahore will resemble more like Peshawar and less like itself.

HP Sahib, instead of pulling the figures out of your ass, can you site some reliable sources of your information? Hira Mandi is not a meat market, as you put it so crudely. These whores have lot more decency and decorum than self absorbed uncouth and uncultured jokers running our country. Look at why every artist is leaving Pakistan, or can’t wait to get the hell out of there. Read up what Mehdi Hassan Khan Sahib recently said. The point of old utensils was a reference to old culture (in case you missed it – but only in case). Just like I take pride in telling Europeans that we were waving silk while you were still climbing trees. Having said that, I am glad that you at least support keeping Hira Mandi open. And culture is not what you like it to be. Heera Mandi is Mecca of our musical culture and traditions. That’s where it all started.

#31 by Kulharee

``Heera Mandi is Mecca of our musical culture and traditions. ``

Does this ``our`` means yours? It certainly is not of any sindhi,pathan, baloch, and mohajir. As I far I know and I know many punjabis, no punjabi would call Heera mandi his culture....


Okay now enough of your malarkey, set it aside and answer one simple question:

Does your family still live there (HM)?