Atif September 21, 2006
#20 Posted by iron_mask on September 22, 2006 3:25:32 am
atif - (T) great article wonderful story. you have a knack of getting the feel right. Just like those photos of yours. Looking forward to seeing them soon.
But WTF this post will be censored. So I guess you will not see it.
But WTF this post will be censored. So I guess you will not see it.
#19 Posted by atif2 on September 22, 2006 1:23:20 am
jang #15 - u wrote ``arabs, vikings and mongols all had tough homelends so they had to go overseas.``
I think this partly explains their outward looking spirits. But one can argue that the arabs had a tough homeland for many milenia. Why did they begin to expand only after 632 AD? And how can one explain the very comfortable and lush green and warmer homeland of Spaniards and Portugese, and their quest to circle around the world and establish colonies? And how can one explain the quest of Papuans to seek out distant polynesian islands? As for chinese, they were quite outward looking too. Some historical research indicates that long before Columbus, it was a chinese ship that had landed in what is today USA.
My (unscientific) analysis suggests that the ``outward looking`` spirit of a people is a result of one or more of these key factors:
1- internal wars and hunger
2- resourcefulness and a tradition of learning
3- a leader with outward personality
4- quest to spread an ideology
5- A martial tradition
Mongols fit nicely into #3. They rose out of no where. They never had a tradition of expanding beyond northern china before 12th century or after 14th century. It was really just the presence of one man, Ghengez Khan, who sowed the seeds of outward expansion. And within 2 hundered years, they had either withdrawn or melted in their conquered populations.
I think this partly explains their outward looking spirits. But one can argue that the arabs had a tough homeland for many milenia. Why did they begin to expand only after 632 AD? And how can one explain the very comfortable and lush green and warmer homeland of Spaniards and Portugese, and their quest to circle around the world and establish colonies? And how can one explain the quest of Papuans to seek out distant polynesian islands? As for chinese, they were quite outward looking too. Some historical research indicates that long before Columbus, it was a chinese ship that had landed in what is today USA.
My (unscientific) analysis suggests that the ``outward looking`` spirit of a people is a result of one or more of these key factors:
1- internal wars and hunger
2- resourcefulness and a tradition of learning
3- a leader with outward personality
4- quest to spread an ideology
5- A martial tradition
Mongols fit nicely into #3. They rose out of no where. They never had a tradition of expanding beyond northern china before 12th century or after 14th century. It was really just the presence of one man, Ghengez Khan, who sowed the seeds of outward expansion. And within 2 hundered years, they had either withdrawn or melted in their conquered populations.
#18 Posted by atif2 on September 22, 2006 1:06:14 am
#14 - Godot, now that you mentioned it, I will post some pictures on unplugged in a day or so.
#16 - Subroto, thanks for liking it. As for the natural humor, I really just wanted to write what actually happened, and the thoughts that crossed my mind during my travel. ``Forced`` humor would have taken reader`s attention away from desert experience.
#17 - perhaps you are right. thanks for liking it.
#16 - Subroto, thanks for liking it. As for the natural humor, I really just wanted to write what actually happened, and the thoughts that crossed my mind during my travel. ``Forced`` humor would have taken reader`s attention away from desert experience.
#17 - perhaps you are right. thanks for liking it.
#17 Posted by khamkhwa on September 21, 2006 7:12:21 pm
...nice story ...i believe arabs call the camel...``ship of the desert``...
#16 Posted by subroto on September 21, 2006 6:57:53 pm
Atif this is excellent writing. The humour in the piece flows naturally without being forced or contrived. Only quibble - the ``Nihari`` and ``Bhaji`` references (with explanations) can be taken out as they intrude upon this piece.
#15 Posted by jang on September 21, 2006 4:05:07 pm
#11 indeed, its the fear of purification by go-mutra that must have set us back ;-)
al-beruni was also surprized by insular nature of indians. they apparently were very disinterested in foreigners and what they knew. the chinese have had this trait too. europeans clearly had the viking spirit. it must be easy lifestyle offered by the subcontinent. you lie on your back and wait for the amb to get ripe and drop nearby..then you compete with the flies. arabs, vikings and mongols all had tough homelends so they had to go overseas.
al-beruni was also surprized by insular nature of indians. they apparently were very disinterested in foreigners and what they knew. the chinese have had this trait too. europeans clearly had the viking spirit. it must be easy lifestyle offered by the subcontinent. you lie on your back and wait for the amb to get ripe and drop nearby..then you compete with the flies. arabs, vikings and mongols all had tough homelends so they had to go overseas.
#14 Posted by Godot on September 21, 2006 1:49:13 pm
Atif
You are a world traveler, and a very good and sensitive writer. I enjoyed reading this. I hope you write more about other places you visited. Where are the pictures?
#13 Posted by Dash_Dot on September 21, 2006 1:38:54 pm
#11 That second paragraph is so true.
Today I see that in the USA, where the average joe has very little knowledge about the world compared to abdul in the bondooks....
It is the desire for learning about new things and experinceing new things and learning from these. That is the opness...that is required. sadly missing amongst many of us.
Today I see that in the USA, where the average joe has very little knowledge about the world compared to abdul in the bondooks....
It is the desire for learning about new things and experinceing new things and learning from these. That is the opness...that is required. sadly missing amongst many of us.
#12 Posted by atif2 on September 21, 2006 1:36:53 pm
jang # 8 - I think that puts into perspective the hesitation of sub-continentals to venture far from their homes...when you come back you have to be purified via rituals - as if wandering away brings evil.
the urdu word ``awaara`` is often used for boys who venture far from their mohallas and streets to see what is on the other end of the city. i suppose it is this desire to not be considered ``awaara`` that keeps us tied to our homes, and kitchens (rolling my eyes). By that definition, europeans are the most ``awaara gard`` people.
the urdu word ``awaara`` is often used for boys who venture far from their mohallas and streets to see what is on the other end of the city. i suppose it is this desire to not be considered ``awaara`` that keeps us tied to our homes, and kitchens (rolling my eyes). By that definition, europeans are the most ``awaara gard`` people.
#11 Posted by atif2 on September 21, 2006 1:31:44 pm
dotty #9 - the ``becoz its there`` part is very apt. It was uttered by Malory, the first (unconfirmed) person who is though to have conquered Mt. Everest in 1924. When people kept asking him ``why do you want to conquer that peak``, his response was ``because its there``. Malory`s body was found after nearly 75 years...frozen and well preserved in the slopes of Mt. Everest.
It also reminds of an story I read somewhere. During the 18th century Ottoman era, a european wandered into Ottoman lands in north africa. He asked a shepherd ``look, i came all the way from europe to learn about you and your lands. Why dont your people go to europe and learn about us?`` The shepherd responded ``I dont need to go anywhere. I am already there``.
And of course that mentality led to the decline and end of Ottoman empire.
It also reminds of an story I read somewhere. During the 18th century Ottoman era, a european wandered into Ottoman lands in north africa. He asked a shepherd ``look, i came all the way from europe to learn about you and your lands. Why dont your people go to europe and learn about us?`` The shepherd responded ``I dont need to go anywhere. I am already there``.
And of course that mentality led to the decline and end of Ottoman empire.
#9 Posted by Dash_Dot on September 21, 2006 1:22:42 pm
Re: # 5 becoz its there atif.
A reverse question - why do pakistanis and others tolerate days of being locked up in containers and travel by sea to some other place. There is an element of wander lust there. Europeans, even the faltu ones from albania, etc donot do it!
A reverse question - why do pakistanis and others tolerate days of being locked up in containers and travel by sea to some other place. There is an element of wander lust there. Europeans, even the faltu ones from albania, etc donot do it!
#8 Posted by jang on September 21, 2006 1:20:45 pm
#5 sorry atif, i guess i did apreciate your stuff about the wanderlust of the colonizer, and in hinduism such wandering is strictly prohibited, so much so that in the old days a mama came back from vilayat, he had to be ritually clensed (a proper 21 pandit feast) with a massive puja.
#7 Posted by Dash_Dot on September 21, 2006 1:20:29 pm
Re: # 3 you iss understand. Soft as a word in the last paragraph - it spoils the rythym of the lines and words. that is it.
No the article is very good - and I must commend chowk-staff tat they didnot succumb to another article on the politics and stuff in the UN - the sort of things which are making many of our friends have orgasms!
Well URSTRULY showed us what he could do with a pair feet (i mean literary things).. .. now you ..... wonders never cease on chowk!
No the article is very good - and I must commend chowk-staff tat they didnot succumb to another article on the politics and stuff in the UN - the sort of things which are making many of our friends have orgasms!
Well URSTRULY showed us what he could do with a pair feet (i mean literary things).. .. now you ..... wonders never cease on chowk!
#6 Posted by avkrishna on September 21, 2006 1:16:44 pm
Atif,
This was a great read. Please do continue to write,
Thanks a lot,
Avkrishna
This was a great read. Please do continue to write,
Thanks a lot,
Avkrishna
#5 Posted by atif2 on September 21, 2006 12:17:15 pm
#4 - no jang, Safeena is NOT the name of a goat...
there is an important point i raised in this article: why do pakis not conquer K-2 every year? Why is it that dozens of europeans each year go through the processes of visa, fly half way around the world, and conquer a peak which is in OUR backyard?
there is an important point i raised in this article: why do pakis not conquer K-2 every year? Why is it that dozens of europeans each year go through the processes of visa, fly half way around the world, and conquer a peak which is in OUR backyard?
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