Muslim Reformers - A Peek Into the Past
Bhaskar Dasgupta September 26, 2006
#70 Posted by MantoLives on October 8, 2006 8:52:47 pm
Harimau,
Actually the Congress party is a decidedly Hindu machiavellian party and BJP is simply an open and honest one... on the other hand if you think depriving Muslims the right to vote is the only solution... then one can imagine the fascist mindset of which you are the product and of which I never had any doubt about.
I suggest you read the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 of Pakistan carefuly and compare it to the existing Indian Muslim family laws... As for your pathetic little hiding behind sectarian violence... yes the Muslim World as a whole is going through turmoil and yes in Pakistan the fall out from our involvement in Afghanistan war is severe... but this my friend is merely a temporary condition and wholely irrelevant to what we are arguing about...
Actually the Congress party is a decidedly Hindu machiavellian party and BJP is simply an open and honest one... on the other hand if you think depriving Muslims the right to vote is the only solution... then one can imagine the fascist mindset of which you are the product and of which I never had any doubt about.
I suggest you read the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 of Pakistan carefuly and compare it to the existing Indian Muslim family laws... As for your pathetic little hiding behind sectarian violence... yes the Muslim World as a whole is going through turmoil and yes in Pakistan the fall out from our involvement in Afghanistan war is severe... but this my friend is merely a temporary condition and wholely irrelevant to what we are arguing about...
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#69 Posted by harimau on October 8, 2006 8:27:06 pm
Ref Mantolives #68
[Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...]
If you had read the article in The Hindu, you would have noticed that the courts immediately started ordering large lump sum payments instead of monthly alimonies.
So how many divorced Muslim women in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are collecting alimony after the Sharia-mandated three menstrual periods?
[... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs....]
Of course the other way is to deprive Muslims of the right to vote so that there is no Muslim vote bank. Would you agree to that since the Congress, a decidedly anti-Hindu, pro-minority party insists on not allying with the RIGHT people as you put it?
[.. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.]
Yes, it is a similar kind of unholy alliance that causes Muslims worldwide to blow themselves up, shoot at Shia imambaras in Pakistan, kill Shia doctors in Karachi, leads to Shia-Sunni warfare in Iraq, etc. What are the poor Muslims to do? It is their allies that make them do it!
[Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...]
If you had read the article in The Hindu, you would have noticed that the courts immediately started ordering large lump sum payments instead of monthly alimonies.
So how many divorced Muslim women in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are collecting alimony after the Sharia-mandated three menstrual periods?
[... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs....]
Of course the other way is to deprive Muslims of the right to vote so that there is no Muslim vote bank. Would you agree to that since the Congress, a decidedly anti-Hindu, pro-minority party insists on not allying with the RIGHT people as you put it?
[.. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.]
Yes, it is a similar kind of unholy alliance that causes Muslims worldwide to blow themselves up, shoot at Shia imambaras in Pakistan, kill Shia doctors in Karachi, leads to Shia-Sunni warfare in Iraq, etc. What are the poor Muslims to do? It is their allies that make them do it!
#68 Posted by MantoLives on October 8, 2006 8:02:32 pm
Dear Harimau,
Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...
I don`t give a damn what M J Akbar`s stance was... I have always maintained that on the uniform civil code issue... BJP`s stance is more rational and keeping in line with modern times... but not just that ... its not even the issue of uniform civil code my friend... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs .. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.
Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...
I don`t give a damn what M J Akbar`s stance was... I have always maintained that on the uniform civil code issue... BJP`s stance is more rational and keeping in line with modern times... but not just that ... its not even the issue of uniform civil code my friend... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs .. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.
#67 Posted by harimau on October 8, 2006 5:53:21 pm
Ref Mantolives #66
Yasser, dear boy, I do know that when you study law you are generally asked to take a look at case law... law as determined by rulings of various courts.
In your case, looking at the Hudood Ordnances and fatwa-online.com seems to have sapped your ability to research case law.
Anyway, here is the Anti-Hindu`s (you know, the paper you guys love to quote) view on the matter:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/08/10/stories/2003081000221500.htm
The Shah Bano legacy
THE SHAH Bano case was a milestone in the Muslim women`s search for justice and the beginning of the political battle over personal law. A 60-year-old woman went to court asking maintenance from her husband who had divorced her. The court ruled in her favour. Shah Bano was entitled to maintenance from her ex-husband under Section 125 of the Criminal Procedure Code (with an upper limit of Rs. 500 a month) like any other Indian woman. The judgment was not the first granting a divorced Muslim woman maintenance under Section 125. But a voluble orthodoxy deemed the verdict an attack on Islam.
The Congress Government, panicky in an election year, caved in under the pressure of the orthodoxy. It enacted the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986. The most controversial provision of the Act was that it gave a Muslim woman the right to maintenance for the period of iddat (about three months) after the divorce, and shifted the onus of maintaining her to her relatives or the Wakf Board. The Act was seen as discriminatory as it denied divorced Muslim women the right to basic maintenance which women of other faiths had recourse to under secular law.
The Bharatiya Janata Party saw it as `appeasement` of the minority community and discriminatory to non-Muslim men, because they were still bound to pay maintenance under Section 125, Cr. PC. However, lawyers who have seen the Act in operation say that there is good reason to take another look at the Act. It contains provisions which have left it open to liberal interpretation. Flavia Agnes, a Mumbai-based lawyer, says that liberal interpretation has not been wanting. Clause A in Section 3 (1) of the Act says that a divorced woman shall be entitled to ``a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the iddat period by her former husband.`` The injunction that `a reasonable and fair provision is made` and `maintenance paid` leaves enough scope for gender-sensitive judgments.
Ms. Agnes cites a slew of rulings in States such as Kerala, Maharashtra, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh, which have awarded sums as maintenance, and `reasonable and fair provisions` in the form of a one-time lump sum payment that Muslim women have never received before. Apart from this, Ms. Agnes says, the 2001 ruling of the full constitutional bench of the Supreme Court in the Daniel Latifi case, in effect, gave Muslim women a law on maintenance. While the 1986 Act appears to have worked better than it was expected to, what remains a concern to many is the inherent discrimination in excluding divorced Muslim women from a provision of law outside the realm of personal law, which is applicable to all other women.
And also, Wikipedia has this to say about it. Go to this URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_bano
So the conclusion is that the ONLY people capable of reforming Muslims are those belonging to the BJP.
I know you LOVE MJ Akbar`s colums about Indo-Pak relations. He was among those demanding that the Shah Bano judgement be set aside. Kiss goodbye any thoughts that Muslims will reform themselves. Left to themselves, Muslims will engage in a fratricidal war amongst themselves. I like the fact that it was the so-called Muslims who exterminated Prophet Mohammad`s descendants.
[Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...]
So, are you going to carry the flag for the chaddiwallahs, the RSS, the BJP who want a uniform Civil Code?
I don`t think so.
So long as you praise Nehru and his clan, Indian Muslims will keep themselves in slums and ensure that they get nowhere.
You are becoming more like Jinnah everyday. You don`t know exactly what your demands will get you but you keep demanding it just to be obstinate.
Is this a Muslim trait or is it in the water/whiskey you drink?
PS. The West Bengal High Court ordered alimony for a Muslim woman a couple of years back despite the infamous Shah Bano law. Check it out on case law.
Yasser, dear boy, I do know that when you study law you are generally asked to take a look at case law... law as determined by rulings of various courts.
In your case, looking at the Hudood Ordnances and fatwa-online.com seems to have sapped your ability to research case law.
Anyway, here is the Anti-Hindu`s (you know, the paper you guys love to quote) view on the matter:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/08/10/stories/2003081000221500.htm
The Shah Bano legacy
THE SHAH Bano case was a milestone in the Muslim women`s search for justice and the beginning of the political battle over personal law. A 60-year-old woman went to court asking maintenance from her husband who had divorced her. The court ruled in her favour. Shah Bano was entitled to maintenance from her ex-husband under Section 125 of the Criminal Procedure Code (with an upper limit of Rs. 500 a month) like any other Indian woman. The judgment was not the first granting a divorced Muslim woman maintenance under Section 125. But a voluble orthodoxy deemed the verdict an attack on Islam.
The Congress Government, panicky in an election year, caved in under the pressure of the orthodoxy. It enacted the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986. The most controversial provision of the Act was that it gave a Muslim woman the right to maintenance for the period of iddat (about three months) after the divorce, and shifted the onus of maintaining her to her relatives or the Wakf Board. The Act was seen as discriminatory as it denied divorced Muslim women the right to basic maintenance which women of other faiths had recourse to under secular law.
The Bharatiya Janata Party saw it as `appeasement` of the minority community and discriminatory to non-Muslim men, because they were still bound to pay maintenance under Section 125, Cr. PC. However, lawyers who have seen the Act in operation say that there is good reason to take another look at the Act. It contains provisions which have left it open to liberal interpretation. Flavia Agnes, a Mumbai-based lawyer, says that liberal interpretation has not been wanting. Clause A in Section 3 (1) of the Act says that a divorced woman shall be entitled to ``a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the iddat period by her former husband.`` The injunction that `a reasonable and fair provision is made` and `maintenance paid` leaves enough scope for gender-sensitive judgments.
Ms. Agnes cites a slew of rulings in States such as Kerala, Maharashtra, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh, which have awarded sums as maintenance, and `reasonable and fair provisions` in the form of a one-time lump sum payment that Muslim women have never received before. Apart from this, Ms. Agnes says, the 2001 ruling of the full constitutional bench of the Supreme Court in the Daniel Latifi case, in effect, gave Muslim women a law on maintenance. While the 1986 Act appears to have worked better than it was expected to, what remains a concern to many is the inherent discrimination in excluding divorced Muslim women from a provision of law outside the realm of personal law, which is applicable to all other women.
And also, Wikipedia has this to say about it. Go to this URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_bano
So the conclusion is that the ONLY people capable of reforming Muslims are those belonging to the BJP.
I know you LOVE MJ Akbar`s colums about Indo-Pak relations. He was among those demanding that the Shah Bano judgement be set aside. Kiss goodbye any thoughts that Muslims will reform themselves. Left to themselves, Muslims will engage in a fratricidal war amongst themselves. I like the fact that it was the so-called Muslims who exterminated Prophet Mohammad`s descendants.
[Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...]
So, are you going to carry the flag for the chaddiwallahs, the RSS, the BJP who want a uniform Civil Code?
I don`t think so.
So long as you praise Nehru and his clan, Indian Muslims will keep themselves in slums and ensure that they get nowhere.
You are becoming more like Jinnah everyday. You don`t know exactly what your demands will get you but you keep demanding it just to be obstinate.
Is this a Muslim trait or is it in the water/whiskey you drink?
PS. The West Bengal High Court ordered alimony for a Muslim woman a couple of years back despite the infamous Shah Bano law. Check it out on case law.
#66 Posted by MantoLives on October 8, 2006 5:05:00 am
Dear Harimau mian,
I would be very rich ... not just by a few pennies. The true Islamic spirit is egalitarian, progressive and yes liberal... Mullahs don`t represent that. Nor is Pakistan free from caste system... so far. Old habits die hard. Punjabi politics for example is perpetually plagued with divisions along arain-jatt-gujjar lines.
Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...
I would be very rich ... not just by a few pennies. The true Islamic spirit is egalitarian, progressive and yes liberal... Mullahs don`t represent that. Nor is Pakistan free from caste system... so far. Old habits die hard. Punjabi politics for example is perpetually plagued with divisions along arain-jatt-gujjar lines.
Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...
#65 Posted by harimau on October 8, 2006 4:26:26 am
Ref Mantolives #64
[Harimau,
If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....]
You wouldn`t be richer by even one penny!
[... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...]
And all along you have been telling us that there is no caste system in Islam, how you are ALL descended either from Prophet Mohammad himself or from Genghis Khan and Taimur Leng.
[... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..]
``Pseudo-secularists``, not secularists. And you Muslims keep falling for that crap, don`t you?
Anyway, the Supreme Court has told the Government of India that there can be no subsidy for the Haj pilgrimage unless they can make a better case.
We do have a judiciary that can overrule the Government. In your country founded by a distinguished Barrister from Lincoln`s Inn, you have the Supreme Court justices taking an oath to defend the PCO. Sigh!
[Harimau,
If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....]
You wouldn`t be richer by even one penny!
[... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...]
And all along you have been telling us that there is no caste system in Islam, how you are ALL descended either from Prophet Mohammad himself or from Genghis Khan and Taimur Leng.
[... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..]
``Pseudo-secularists``, not secularists. And you Muslims keep falling for that crap, don`t you?
Anyway, the Supreme Court has told the Government of India that there can be no subsidy for the Haj pilgrimage unless they can make a better case.
We do have a judiciary that can overrule the Government. In your country founded by a distinguished Barrister from Lincoln`s Inn, you have the Supreme Court justices taking an oath to defend the PCO. Sigh!
#64 Posted by MantoLives on October 7, 2006 11:58:57 pm
Harimau,
If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....
Yes Jamaat-e-Islami did wash the Minar-e-Pakistan... but remember we consider Jamaat-e-Islami as the old ally of the Hindus from the 1940s and a party which opposed the creation of Pakistan ... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...
Harish Mian,
After running from every board with your tail between your legs, I suppose it makes sense that you would bring up cases from the 1980s in the immediate aftermath of Zia`s Islamisation... The fact of the matter is that this fellow will be acquitted... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..
If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....
Yes Jamaat-e-Islami did wash the Minar-e-Pakistan... but remember we consider Jamaat-e-Islami as the old ally of the Hindus from the 1940s and a party which opposed the creation of Pakistan ... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...
Harish Mian,
After running from every board with your tail between your legs, I suppose it makes sense that you would bring up cases from the 1980s in the immediate aftermath of Zia`s Islamisation... The fact of the matter is that this fellow will be acquitted... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..
#63 Posted by harimau on October 6, 2006 1:53:58 am
Ref Mantolives #61
[However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.]
Yasser, dear boy, I assure you I won`t wash my house with water or any other liquid after a visit by you. I do remember however that the Minar-e-Pakistan was ritually washed after Vajpayee visited it. So you really want to be careful with your comments about who washes places visited bu people of other faiths.
On the other hand, if that ugly fcuker Soysauce visits my house, I will have to call in a priest and go through a purification ceremony!
[However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.]
Yasser, dear boy, I assure you I won`t wash my house with water or any other liquid after a visit by you. I do remember however that the Minar-e-Pakistan was ritually washed after Vajpayee visited it. So you really want to be careful with your comments about who washes places visited bu people of other faiths.
On the other hand, if that ugly fcuker Soysauce visits my house, I will have to call in a priest and go through a purification ceremony!
#62 Posted by harish_hyd on October 6, 2006 1:03:08 am
#60 by harimau
The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
Yaar Harimau, while Pakis may want to fool the world about how modern justice is in Pakistan, people are being tried and sentenced to detah by Sharia courts even after being acquitted by the secular courts. So much for modernity!!!
`This is our last chance to save my brother`
Excerpts
``When Mirza-Tahir Hussain was 18, he left his home in Leeds and went on holiday to Pakistan to visit relatives. Eighteen years later, he is still there, on death row at Adiala prison in Rawalpindi, a few miles south of Islamabad, convicted for the murder of a taxi driver - a crime he vehemently denies. He was even acquitted of all charges 10 years ago by Pakistan`s high court, which criticised the police investigation.
``Soon afterwards, however, he was retried under sharia law, found guilty and sentenced to death. This Sunday, Mirza-Tahir Hussain is due to be hanged.``
The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
Yaar Harimau, while Pakis may want to fool the world about how modern justice is in Pakistan, people are being tried and sentenced to detah by Sharia courts even after being acquitted by the secular courts. So much for modernity!!!
`This is our last chance to save my brother`
Excerpts
``When Mirza-Tahir Hussain was 18, he left his home in Leeds and went on holiday to Pakistan to visit relatives. Eighteen years later, he is still there, on death row at Adiala prison in Rawalpindi, a few miles south of Islamabad, convicted for the murder of a taxi driver - a crime he vehemently denies. He was even acquitted of all charges 10 years ago by Pakistan`s high court, which criticised the police investigation.
``Soon afterwards, however, he was retried under sharia law, found guilty and sentenced to death. This Sunday, Mirza-Tahir Hussain is due to be hanged.``
#61 Posted by MantoLives on October 5, 2006 9:35:39 pm
Dear Harimau,
While the Mullahs have come into power in NWFP... pray tell where they`ve banned TV? Yes they tried to ban cable and failed miserably. They tried to ban cinemas in Ramazan and they failed. So your point is ridiculous and indicative of your inherent ignorance and stupidity. Hudood Ordinance is the result of military rule and not the people of Pakistan. And while under Pakistan`s Muslim Family law Ordinance 1961 ... a Muslim man has to follow a proper procedure to divorce his wife.... and remarrying requires special municipal permission... and a Muslim man has to pay alimony to his wife.... in India, 62 year old women are deprived of their alimony in the name of Islam by the secular parliament.
And I can imagine what or how sweepers are forced to live in Gandhi`s casteist India.. but my sweeper owns a proper 5 marla house (125 yards) in Youhana Abad... and he is a christian. However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.
While the Mullahs have come into power in NWFP... pray tell where they`ve banned TV? Yes they tried to ban cable and failed miserably. They tried to ban cinemas in Ramazan and they failed. So your point is ridiculous and indicative of your inherent ignorance and stupidity. Hudood Ordinance is the result of military rule and not the people of Pakistan. And while under Pakistan`s Muslim Family law Ordinance 1961 ... a Muslim man has to follow a proper procedure to divorce his wife.... and remarrying requires special municipal permission... and a Muslim man has to pay alimony to his wife.... in India, 62 year old women are deprived of their alimony in the name of Islam by the secular parliament.
And I can imagine what or how sweepers are forced to live in Gandhi`s casteist India.. but my sweeper owns a proper 5 marla house (125 yards) in Youhana Abad... and he is a christian. However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.
#60 Posted by harimau on October 5, 2006 3:55:45 am
Ref Mantolives #57
[I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... ]
Meanwhile in Pakistan you have got the Maulanas in power in NWFP who have banned TV, music, movies, etc. The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
[my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones.]
You are not sure of his religion but you are sure he owns a house. More like he lives in a hut in a slum; don`t call it a house.
Since you aren`t sure about his religion, you might want to take him to the nearest mosque and have him say out loud the kalima. Just to be sure, give him a plate of beef. You might want to go the whole hog and bugger him too. That would be complete confirmation that he has embraced Islam.
So, Yasser, dear boy, when are you going to be championing minority rights in Pakistan a la Jinnah in India?
What? Cat got your tongue?
[I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... ]
Meanwhile in Pakistan you have got the Maulanas in power in NWFP who have banned TV, music, movies, etc. The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
[my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones.]
You are not sure of his religion but you are sure he owns a house. More like he lives in a hut in a slum; don`t call it a house.
Since you aren`t sure about his religion, you might want to take him to the nearest mosque and have him say out loud the kalima. Just to be sure, give him a plate of beef. You might want to go the whole hog and bugger him too. That would be complete confirmation that he has embraced Islam.
So, Yasser, dear boy, when are you going to be championing minority rights in Pakistan a la Jinnah in India?
What? Cat got your tongue?
#59 Posted by MantoLives on October 4, 2006 3:36:16 am
Dear Ranjit,
Most of the anecdotal evidence you`ve provided might be true for some and not so true for others. Lahore and Islamabad are considered much safer and secure than Karachi .. Karachi as a city was thrown to dogs in the 1980s... The violence and sectarian strife in Karachi is the direct result of our meddling in Afghanistan and the arming of militias like Harkat-ul-Mujahidin, Lashkar-e-Taiba and others in the 1980s. The shia-sunni violence you see in Karachi is the blowback of General Zia-ul-Haq`s policies in Karachi. It takes time... but things are getting better. As such this is not the failure of Pakistan but the failure of its establishment to be more people friendly.
Similarly... there is no high unemployment amongst knowledge labour. In the past few years the Job market in Pakistan has been on the upsurge. Just visit Rozee.pk or brightspire or Abacus Careers ... infact there are hundreds of job portals... the market for Engineers and MBAs has grown tremendously. Infact because of large number of available opportunities, has led to a turnover rate that is phenomenal. The average time for a skilled worker in a job before he moves to greener pastures is now less than a year. Infact such is demand for qualified skilled labor that a huge burden is placed on our universities and colleges to produce more and more Engineers and MBAs... the average starting salary has double to close to a Rs 80-100 K whereas it used to be only 25-30 only two years ago. The average 6.9% ... my cousins... Two Engineers and one MBA are now earning well in excess of 100 k each ...
Anecdotal evidence in the end counts for nothing. My suggestion- visit Pakistan and see for yourself or research the issue.
Most of the anecdotal evidence you`ve provided might be true for some and not so true for others. Lahore and Islamabad are considered much safer and secure than Karachi .. Karachi as a city was thrown to dogs in the 1980s... The violence and sectarian strife in Karachi is the direct result of our meddling in Afghanistan and the arming of militias like Harkat-ul-Mujahidin, Lashkar-e-Taiba and others in the 1980s. The shia-sunni violence you see in Karachi is the blowback of General Zia-ul-Haq`s policies in Karachi. It takes time... but things are getting better. As such this is not the failure of Pakistan but the failure of its establishment to be more people friendly.
Similarly... there is no high unemployment amongst knowledge labour. In the past few years the Job market in Pakistan has been on the upsurge. Just visit Rozee.pk or brightspire or Abacus Careers ... infact there are hundreds of job portals... the market for Engineers and MBAs has grown tremendously. Infact because of large number of available opportunities, has led to a turnover rate that is phenomenal. The average time for a skilled worker in a job before he moves to greener pastures is now less than a year. Infact such is demand for qualified skilled labor that a huge burden is placed on our universities and colleges to produce more and more Engineers and MBAs... the average starting salary has double to close to a Rs 80-100 K whereas it used to be only 25-30 only two years ago. The average 6.9% ... my cousins... Two Engineers and one MBA are now earning well in excess of 100 k each ...
Anecdotal evidence in the end counts for nothing. My suggestion- visit Pakistan and see for yourself or research the issue.
#58 Posted by Ranjit on October 4, 2006 1:18:40 am
Re:Manto#57
This is a good discussion to have. I have never been to Pakistan but I do have several Pakistani friends and colleagues. Since you gave a lot of anecdotal evidence, here is what I have heard from my friends.
From what I have heard, the picture is nowhere as rosy as you are depicting. There are three things that they always mention. Firstly is the security situation. Almost uniformly every Pakistani has told me that the lawlessness, crime and sectrianism has reached unbearable dimensions all over Pakistan. My friend in New Jersey comes from a well to do family in Karachi. He was kidnapped from the road in Karachi in broad daylight and tortured for several days before his father was able to pull some levers and get him released. His father`s side is Sunni and his mother`s is Shia. He tells me that such marriages have become very rare now. Even in his own family, one side calls the other Kaffir, even though everyone is well educated. As far as crime is concerned, he says that it is extremely lawless all over. Carjackings, robbery, rape are common, even from the airport to go to home. As per him, muslims in India may face communal violence but that is rare (leave aside exceptions like Gujarat). At least day to day, they do not face a security nightmare.
The second thing is the lack of a meritocracy in all institutions especially in employment. Almost everything happens due to `sifarish` and `jaan-pehchaan`. My father knows your father. So he may give me a job or promotion or business deal based on that and so on. Genuine merit and fairness is missing at most places.
The third thing is the economy. Almost every Pakistani has told me that the economy stinks and every one is eager to immigrate to the west. There is high unemployment among engineers, MBAs and other educated people i.e. knowledge workers.
There is one thing in which you are right. Indian muslims are backward socially as compared to Pakistanis. My Pakistani friend tells me that when his cousins from UP visit Karachi, they are stunned to see that women are not in burqas and there is a lot of free mixing between men and women, parties and so on. In fact, he feels his cousins from India are like country bumpkins, very naive and innocent, accustomed to a simple life. However, I wonder if you are aware that Indian muslims have taken to education in a huge way. Indian muslim newspapers are full of accomplishments of Indian muslim students. The overall economic boom in India is certainly helping everyone including muslims.
So at the end of the day, what can we conclude? Pakistanis are richer than Indian muslims, but have a tougher life. Indian muslims are poorer but lead a simple, secure life. And the future prospects are bleak compared to Indian muslims who are coming up in a big way.
This is a good discussion to have. I have never been to Pakistan but I do have several Pakistani friends and colleagues. Since you gave a lot of anecdotal evidence, here is what I have heard from my friends.
From what I have heard, the picture is nowhere as rosy as you are depicting. There are three things that they always mention. Firstly is the security situation. Almost uniformly every Pakistani has told me that the lawlessness, crime and sectrianism has reached unbearable dimensions all over Pakistan. My friend in New Jersey comes from a well to do family in Karachi. He was kidnapped from the road in Karachi in broad daylight and tortured for several days before his father was able to pull some levers and get him released. His father`s side is Sunni and his mother`s is Shia. He tells me that such marriages have become very rare now. Even in his own family, one side calls the other Kaffir, even though everyone is well educated. As far as crime is concerned, he says that it is extremely lawless all over. Carjackings, robbery, rape are common, even from the airport to go to home. As per him, muslims in India may face communal violence but that is rare (leave aside exceptions like Gujarat). At least day to day, they do not face a security nightmare.
The second thing is the lack of a meritocracy in all institutions especially in employment. Almost everything happens due to `sifarish` and `jaan-pehchaan`. My father knows your father. So he may give me a job or promotion or business deal based on that and so on. Genuine merit and fairness is missing at most places.
The third thing is the economy. Almost every Pakistani has told me that the economy stinks and every one is eager to immigrate to the west. There is high unemployment among engineers, MBAs and other educated people i.e. knowledge workers.
There is one thing in which you are right. Indian muslims are backward socially as compared to Pakistanis. My Pakistani friend tells me that when his cousins from UP visit Karachi, they are stunned to see that women are not in burqas and there is a lot of free mixing between men and women, parties and so on. In fact, he feels his cousins from India are like country bumpkins, very naive and innocent, accustomed to a simple life. However, I wonder if you are aware that Indian muslims have taken to education in a huge way. Indian muslim newspapers are full of accomplishments of Indian muslim students. The overall economic boom in India is certainly helping everyone including muslims.
So at the end of the day, what can we conclude? Pakistanis are richer than Indian muslims, but have a tougher life. Indian muslims are poorer but lead a simple, secure life. And the future prospects are bleak compared to Indian muslims who are coming up in a big way.
#57 Posted by MantoLives on October 3, 2006 8:52:17 pm
Harimau,
I see you are still stuck with the whole ``education`` thing. Looks like I have touched a raw nerve. But yes .. coming as it did from someone like you who couldn`t even get into a decent community college and had to settle for El-Kamino ... I must say I am very insulted.
Dear Ranjit,
I am glad that you atleast tried to understand what was being said, unlike these other folk here. A visit to Pakistan will show you that some of these pre-conceived notions exist mainly in the fertile Indian imagination. First what you see as ``elite`` in Pakistan is not necessarily the elite. Pakistan`s social stratification is not as rigid as other places and you often find people moving brackets quite easily. While in the 1990s, Pakistan fell back... but generally the trend has been restored. Pakistan`s Telecom sector boom over the past few years as well as this general services oriented economy has enriched a lot of people... I think we are not following this Elite-NonElite distinction but Pakistani society more than ever is now seeing the consolidation of a national bourgeoisie ... and this is what Pakistan`s achievement is.
Is the common Muslim doing better in Pakistan or India? Quite the contrary to your assertion, I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones. In extreme cases I have seen Munshis around high court who drive to work on a Honda Civic VTI. Perhaps much of this is ill-gotten... perhaps all, but the point is that the common man in Pakistan has been enriched...
Look this is the litmus test. Ask any Indian who has visited Pakistan whether poverty and prosperity in Pakistan live in watertight compartments. In Pakistan, there is no secluded Golflinks believe me... The point is that Pakistan is a society in transition and the enrichment .... especially in recent years due to property boom and job creation .... is more or less evenly spread. I know many nay sayers will get up and abuse me... but if you are ever in Lahore be sure to visit a place called Hall Road ... here you will find people with the smallest possible shop fronts... with barely room to sit. Many of them would be uneducated and unsophisticated and clearly from the ``lower income bracket``... many of them would either take the bus there or have scooters... but if you check up on them.. you`ll find that many of them would own bungalows in the richest and poshest parts of the city. Another test you can do is... that even today after much of the terror hype... tally the number of Pakistani International students from Pakistan on a major university campus and compare it with the number Indian Muslim international students from India...
-YLH
I see you are still stuck with the whole ``education`` thing. Looks like I have touched a raw nerve. But yes .. coming as it did from someone like you who couldn`t even get into a decent community college and had to settle for El-Kamino ... I must say I am very insulted.
Dear Ranjit,
I am glad that you atleast tried to understand what was being said, unlike these other folk here. A visit to Pakistan will show you that some of these pre-conceived notions exist mainly in the fertile Indian imagination. First what you see as ``elite`` in Pakistan is not necessarily the elite. Pakistan`s social stratification is not as rigid as other places and you often find people moving brackets quite easily. While in the 1990s, Pakistan fell back... but generally the trend has been restored. Pakistan`s Telecom sector boom over the past few years as well as this general services oriented economy has enriched a lot of people... I think we are not following this Elite-NonElite distinction but Pakistani society more than ever is now seeing the consolidation of a national bourgeoisie ... and this is what Pakistan`s achievement is.
Is the common Muslim doing better in Pakistan or India? Quite the contrary to your assertion, I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones. In extreme cases I have seen Munshis around high court who drive to work on a Honda Civic VTI. Perhaps much of this is ill-gotten... perhaps all, but the point is that the common man in Pakistan has been enriched...
Look this is the litmus test. Ask any Indian who has visited Pakistan whether poverty and prosperity in Pakistan live in watertight compartments. In Pakistan, there is no secluded Golflinks believe me... The point is that Pakistan is a society in transition and the enrichment .... especially in recent years due to property boom and job creation .... is more or less evenly spread. I know many nay sayers will get up and abuse me... but if you are ever in Lahore be sure to visit a place called Hall Road ... here you will find people with the smallest possible shop fronts... with barely room to sit. Many of them would be uneducated and unsophisticated and clearly from the ``lower income bracket``... many of them would either take the bus there or have scooters... but if you check up on them.. you`ll find that many of them would own bungalows in the richest and poshest parts of the city. Another test you can do is... that even today after much of the terror hype... tally the number of Pakistani International students from Pakistan on a major university campus and compare it with the number Indian Muslim international students from India...
-YLH
#56 Posted by harimau on October 3, 2006 5:03:20 am
Ref Mantolives #54
Yasser, dear boy, it is a good thing you enrolled in law school in Pakistan after your Rutgers degree. I don`t think you would have passed LSAT in the USA.
Anyway, best wishes for a stint at Lincoln`s Inn where you can hang out with your buddy Jinnah`s spirit. Then perhaps you would be able to see the light just as Jinnah did and fight for minority rights and the right of secession in Pakistan.
Yasser, dear boy, it is a good thing you enrolled in law school in Pakistan after your Rutgers degree. I don`t think you would have passed LSAT in the USA.
Anyway, best wishes for a stint at Lincoln`s Inn where you can hang out with your buddy Jinnah`s spirit. Then perhaps you would be able to see the light just as Jinnah did and fight for minority rights and the right of secession in Pakistan.
#55 Posted by Ranjit on October 3, 2006 3:34:04 am
Re:Mantolives
Manto, the basic question is whether muslims are better off in Pakistan or India, as things stand today. Conventional wisdom would suggest that in a muslim majority state like Pakistan, it would be a slam dunk that muslims would be better off. However, that is not the case. The jury is out on this one.
For starters, muslim elites are doing exceedingly well in Pakistan. No doubt about that since they control everything. There are relatively few muslim elites in India and though they have decent, comfortable lives, it is nowhere close to the lavish lifestyle of the elites in Pakistan. For that matter, even hindu elites in India do not have a lavish life, given the Indian culture of frugality.
Leaving the elites aside, for the regular people - middle class or lower, the Indian economic boom is benefiting all sections including muslims. That is closing the gap on opportunities available in Pakistan stemming from being in a majority. So it boils down to this - being a minority in a prosperous country versus being a majority in a poorer country. Which one is better?
Manto, the basic question is whether muslims are better off in Pakistan or India, as things stand today. Conventional wisdom would suggest that in a muslim majority state like Pakistan, it would be a slam dunk that muslims would be better off. However, that is not the case. The jury is out on this one.
For starters, muslim elites are doing exceedingly well in Pakistan. No doubt about that since they control everything. There are relatively few muslim elites in India and though they have decent, comfortable lives, it is nowhere close to the lavish lifestyle of the elites in Pakistan. For that matter, even hindu elites in India do not have a lavish life, given the Indian culture of frugality.
Leaving the elites aside, for the regular people - middle class or lower, the Indian economic boom is benefiting all sections including muslims. That is closing the gap on opportunities available in Pakistan stemming from being in a majority. So it boils down to this - being a minority in a prosperous country versus being a majority in a poorer country. Which one is better?
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- anil: Ijaz sahib: The economic view... Government Wins Manmohan Singh
- ijaz_gul: As per latest reports,... Government Wins Manmohan Singh
- ijaz_gul: "IN THE fullness of... Government Wins Manmohan Singh
- anil: Re: # 57 Massaddi Mian: Please... Why is Karachi Turning
- masadi: #348 laddu writes "Re:... Dhokha and Being a
- ijaz_gul: Re: # 3 majumdar and... Government Wins Manmohan Singh
- masadi: An ilog I posted... Why is Karachi Turning
- masadi: ....not to mention how... Why is Karachi Turning
