Muslim Reformers - A Peek Into the Past

Ref sadna #44

[#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.]

Our dear boy Yasser went to Rutgers.

You might want to make some allowances for that.

Dasgupta Sir

Now that the discussion is cooling off, you may want to give the following a thought.

`Reform,` one assumes, is a transitive verb (Grammar Gurus may help us here). One re-forms some specific thing. At some point in time, you might pinpoint what that specific thing being reformed here was, and how its shape was re-formed (form before the reform and form after the reform). Once that clarification has been provided we would be able to see whether you did justice to your subject.

Thanks for listening. Best wishes for the series.

#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.

Pakistan is 97% Muslim according to Pak government`s own figures. Blaming 3% nonMuslim population for bad overall literacy rate of Pakistan does not work given the math.

Overall rate literacy (R_ = 0.97 * Muslim rate (MR) + 0.03 * nonMuslim rate (NR)

If R = 54 (overall literacy rate) and MR = 59 (equal to Indian Muslim rate), NR = -107% in other words Pakistani nonMuslims would need to have negative literacy rates for you to be able to blame them for bringing down the overall Pakistan literacy rate.

In other words with 54% overall literacy there is no way that the Pakistani Muslim literacy rate can equal much less exceed the Indian Muslim rate 59%.


Instead of cooking up figures with no references while calling me a liar for quoting government stats from government websites, find something better to do with your life.

PS:

I also want to point out that in your zeal to prove India`s superiority, you forgot to mention that the Pakistani figures are inclusive of all Pakistanis and not just Muslims... so this isn`t really a comparison of Muslim literacies is it.

Dear Sadna,

I rubbished your false superiority complex without even challenging your fudged figures which almost every Indian Muslim considers fudged. You had no answer ... so you`ve now fallen on familiar patterns.

#40
Don`t look now, but all your huffing and puffing amounts to precisely nothing. Your opinion of me is totally and completely irrelevant to the question of Muslim literacy rates.

Sadna,

I must say that you are by the far most ridiculously bigoted and inhuman Indian I have come across in my life. The fact of the matter is that you are incapable of reforming yourself and your inner demons so why even talk of reform. Your wasted exercise in 31 which was meant to establish some sort of Indian superiority is what stands in the way of peace itself.

beady #32
#38 is what I meant - a typical mindlessly triumphalist mindset which rejects mere facts about Muslims` human condition and stands in the way of all reform.

Dear Sadna,

Could you explain - honestly and in a non-Indian fashion- what exactly those numbers would mean...

Even if we were to accept your figures as the gospel truth... it goes without saying that the gap between the Indian Muslim minority in India and those of the corresponding agriculturalist and ``martial`` Muslims of Punjab, NWFP, Sindh, and Balochistan pre-partition was a much higher gap than today... this had to do with the classification of Punjab as ``martial province``, the neglect of Balochistan and NWFP because of the prevalence of the Sardari and Khan nizam... and the wadero system in Sindh... all deliberate British policy... this is precisely why the top leadership of Pakistan was derived almost entirely from Muslims who lived or had made their careers in what is now India... and this is precisely why Pakistan`s bureaucracy early on was completely dominated by the Mohajirs... hence the distinction of regulation and de-regulation provinces should have to be taken into account...

So in effect... Pakistan has taken a previously completely uneducated lot and forced them to educate and modernise... and closed up the gap even by your distorted and fudged figures shows how - despite Pakistan`s neglected education system- the education of Muslims has been an overwhelming success... But people like you do whatever they can to distort the facts and fail to put things in their proper perspective...

So simply... Your figures (biased and unreliable as they are coming from state propaganda) actually show that despite all of Pakistan`s failures ... literacy in Pakistan areas has shown a much greater upward movement than amongst Indian Muslims.

Bhaskar Dasgupta, {``It is one of the few institutions, which is taking definite steps in making sure that the Indian Muslim population comes to grips with the modern world.``}

Dasgupta Sahib,
Thank you for a very informative and well-written article about this great reformer and activist. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, in his own days, encountered the all too often familiar rebuke of the Mullahs. In this age of crazy madrassas and even crazier teachers and graduates, it is reassuring that certain Muslims were much more capable in uplifting the standard of education.

I am equally fascinated by his superhuman ability to transcend centuries though:

{`` However, after his father died in 1938, he was forced ..... and finally in 1967, the Muhammadan Anglo-Oriental (MAO) School in Aligarh.

Re: # 33 and Beady,

I tend to agree with Masadi, upto a point. You see most of the elite donot seem to understand Islam, its tenets, philosophy, how it relates to the world and other civilisations. They have no understanding of western philosophical principles, nor do they understand the oriental ones. even the language of discourse is different. Both groups could be talking in English but they just spear past each other. They, the so called liberal elite, can develop arguments on the fly. Unfortunately, this only leads in one direction that of raising ethnic problems whilst forgetting the global context.

Look around you on this website. Young promising minds, with plenty of energy, over a period of time fall prey to this localised ethinc syndrome (maybe we can call it KATLES - KAals Theory of Localised Ethnicity Syndrome). I would not want to name names, but you can guess them.

(the only one who came close to developing this understanding was Iqbal of yore. Unfortunately he went awol with his ideas and soon disappeared into some philosophical black hole.).

Re: # 30 and #32 But there have been few Syeds who have left their mark. The result is what wheel Of time suggests (See #33 from Wheel of Time.)

#33 agreed O wheel Of time!
Places like the AMU and Jaamia are supposed to produce great thinkers. Perhaps AMU did produce these thinkers. But they semed to have biten the dust, and you the who exercise is reduced to your last few sentences.

To get above the local ethnic concerns, as you put it,you would need be training and developng minds. Maybe at this juncture this is not as important as producing people who can earn a living, and generate wealth within the society. Who knows in a few years from now you would get these great minds.

I will quitely lay a bet that these two institutions will provide the world with these great minds in the near future.

Good article on a great and important man.

However, to be really significant in a global-theological sense, such a liberal voice will need to arise, surive, and dominate in an Islamic country. ``Indian-Muslim`` issues appear Islamic only in juxtaposition to other, non-Islamic Indian issues. Within the world of Islam, they are more ethnic concerns than religious ones.

#29: Manto, the problem is that I dont really want to target every possible factor behind this issue. That way, we just go about needlessly exciting electrons on the internet. The objective was to see if one has examples from history which broke the back of the obscurantists, and as Sir Syed has proved, it can be done. Not enough, but it has been done.

#30 by strongman_dick. Well, as we have seen above, Sir Syed did go and beard the mullah`s in their own den (pun intended).

#31 by sadna. Thank you for the note. One wonders if a further application of the rationalist ideas such as that of Sir Syed and expansion of minority educational institutions (as I am under no illusion that the public education system will get improved anywhere in a hurry) will help push the Indian Muslim literacy rate upwards. And, btw, I am not a reformer, I am a part time hack :)

Dear Author,

If you can merely get Pakistanis to admit that with 97% Muslim population, their literacy is lower than that of Indian Muslims (who constitute a minority of 14%), you will succeed in being one of the greatest reformer of our times.

The information is provided below. Good luck.


Indian Muslim literacy in 2001 India census:
Overall Indian Muslim literacy(age 7 and up): 59%

Indian Muslim literacy for ages 10 and up :
Indian Muslim female literacy: 49%
Indian Muslim male literacy : 67.95%


Pakistan literacy figures for ages 10 and up:
Female literacy : 41.75%
Male literacy : 66.25%

Overall Pak literacy as mean of the two: 54%


India data from
[1]http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Muslims.pdf
[2]http://www.censusindia.net/results/C_Series/C_series_pdf/C9_India.pdf
[3]http://www.censusindia.net/results/religion_main.html


Pakistan data From
[4]http://www.pakistantimes.net/2004/07/15/national4.htm
[5]http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arFY04/Chapter_8.pdf