Muslim Reformers - A Peek Into the Past

Harimau,

Actually the Congress party is a decidedly Hindu machiavellian party and BJP is simply an open and honest one... on the other hand if you think depriving Muslims the right to vote is the only solution... then one can imagine the fascist mindset of which you are the product and of which I never had any doubt about.

I suggest you read the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 of Pakistan carefuly and compare it to the existing Indian Muslim family laws... As for your pathetic little hiding behind sectarian violence... yes the Muslim World as a whole is going through turmoil and yes in Pakistan the fall out from our involvement in Afghanistan war is severe... but this my friend is merely a temporary condition and wholely irrelevant to what we are arguing about...

Ref Mantolives #68

[Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...]

If you had read the article in The Hindu, you would have noticed that the courts immediately started ordering large lump sum payments instead of monthly alimonies.

So how many divorced Muslim women in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are collecting alimony after the Sharia-mandated three menstrual periods?

[... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs....]

Of course the other way is to deprive Muslims of the right to vote so that there is no Muslim vote bank. Would you agree to that since the Congress, a decidedly anti-Hindu, pro-minority party insists on not allying with the RIGHT people as you put it?

[.. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.]

Yes, it is a similar kind of unholy alliance that causes Muslims worldwide to blow themselves up, shoot at Shia imambaras in Pakistan, kill Shia doctors in Karachi, leads to Shia-Sunni warfare in Iraq, etc. What are the poor Muslims to do? It is their allies that make them do it!

Dear Harimau,

Why ... my my.. you are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that your secular parliament deprived a poor old woman alimony (yes the same alimony she is entitled to in the big bad Islamic republic next door) by using Islam...

I don`t give a damn what M J Akbar`s stance was... I have always maintained that on the uniform civil code issue... BJP`s stance is more rational and keeping in line with modern times... but not just that ... its not even the issue of uniform civil code my friend... it is about the Hindu majority making the right alliances with the right people in the Muslim minority ... instead of the easily bought mullahs .. an unholy alliance which was christened by Gandhi himself and which to this day stops Muslims from reforming.

Ref Mantolives #66

Yasser, dear boy, I do know that when you study law you are generally asked to take a look at case law... law as determined by rulings of various courts.

In your case, looking at the Hudood Ordnances and fatwa-online.com seems to have sapped your ability to research case law.

Anyway, here is the Anti-Hindu`s (you know, the paper you guys love to quote) view on the matter:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/08/10/stories/2003081000221500.htm

The Shah Bano legacy


THE SHAH Bano case was a milestone in the Muslim women`s search for justice and the beginning of the political battle over personal law. A 60-year-old woman went to court asking maintenance from her husband who had divorced her. The court ruled in her favour. Shah Bano was entitled to maintenance from her ex-husband under Section 125 of the Criminal Procedure Code (with an upper limit of Rs. 500 a month) like any other Indian woman. The judgment was not the first granting a divorced Muslim woman maintenance under Section 125. But a voluble orthodoxy deemed the verdict an attack on Islam.

The Congress Government, panicky in an election year, caved in under the pressure of the orthodoxy. It enacted the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986. The most controversial provision of the Act was that it gave a Muslim woman the right to maintenance for the period of iddat (about three months) after the divorce, and shifted the onus of maintaining her to her relatives or the Wakf Board. The Act was seen as discriminatory as it denied divorced Muslim women the right to basic maintenance which women of other faiths had recourse to under secular law.

The Bharatiya Janata Party saw it as `appeasement` of the minority community and discriminatory to non-Muslim men, because they were still bound to pay maintenance under Section 125, Cr. PC. However, lawyers who have seen the Act in operation say that there is good reason to take another look at the Act. It contains provisions which have left it open to liberal interpretation. Flavia Agnes, a Mumbai-based lawyer, says that liberal interpretation has not been wanting. Clause A in Section 3 (1) of the Act says that a divorced woman shall be entitled to ``a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the iddat period by her former husband.`` The injunction that `a reasonable and fair provision is made` and `maintenance paid` leaves enough scope for gender-sensitive judgments.

Ms. Agnes cites a slew of rulings in States such as Kerala, Maharashtra, Gujarat and Andhra Pradesh, which have awarded sums as maintenance, and `reasonable and fair provisions` in the form of a one-time lump sum payment that Muslim women have never received before. Apart from this, Ms. Agnes says, the 2001 ruling of the full constitutional bench of the Supreme Court in the Daniel Latifi case, in effect, gave Muslim women a law on maintenance. While the 1986 Act appears to have worked better than it was expected to, what remains a concern to many is the inherent discrimination in excluding divorced Muslim women from a provision of law outside the realm of personal law, which is applicable to all other women.

And also, Wikipedia has this to say about it. Go to this URL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_bano

So the conclusion is that the ONLY people capable of reforming Muslims are those belonging to the BJP.

I know you LOVE MJ Akbar`s colums about Indo-Pak relations. He was among those demanding that the Shah Bano judgement be set aside. Kiss goodbye any thoughts that Muslims will reform themselves. Left to themselves, Muslims will engage in a fratricidal war amongst themselves. I like the fact that it was the so-called Muslims who exterminated Prophet Mohammad`s descendants.

[Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...]

So, are you going to carry the flag for the chaddiwallahs, the RSS, the BJP who want a uniform Civil Code?

I don`t think so.

So long as you praise Nehru and his clan, Indian Muslims will keep themselves in slums and ensure that they get nowhere.

You are becoming more like Jinnah everyday. You don`t know exactly what your demands will get you but you keep demanding it just to be obstinate.

Is this a Muslim trait or is it in the water/whiskey you drink?

PS. The West Bengal High Court ordered alimony for a Muslim woman a couple of years back despite the infamous Shah Bano law. Check it out on case law.

Dear Harimau mian,

I would be very rich ... not just by a few pennies. The true Islamic spirit is egalitarian, progressive and yes liberal... Mullahs don`t represent that. Nor is Pakistan free from caste system... so far. Old habits die hard. Punjabi politics for example is perpetually plagued with divisions along arain-jatt-gujjar lines.

Yes Pseudo-secularism... which is what your country is based on... a facade of secularism masking an ugly reality. This is what the Congress Party is... this is why we had to make Pakistan. And was your brilliant SC able to overturn the act of parliament in Shah Bano case...

Ref Mantolives #64

[Harimau,

If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....]

You wouldn`t be richer by even one penny!

[... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...]

And all along you have been telling us that there is no caste system in Islam, how you are ALL descended either from Prophet Mohammad himself or from Genghis Khan and Taimur Leng.

[... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..]

``Pseudo-secularists``, not secularists. And you Muslims keep falling for that crap, don`t you?

Anyway, the Supreme Court has told the Government of India that there can be no subsidy for the Haj pilgrimage unless they can make a better case.

We do have a judiciary that can overrule the Government. In your country founded by a distinguished Barrister from Lincoln`s Inn, you have the Supreme Court justices taking an oath to defend the PCO. Sigh!

Harimau,

If only I had a penny for everyone of your stupidity....

Yes Jamaat-e-Islami did wash the Minar-e-Pakistan... but remember we consider Jamaat-e-Islami as the old ally of the Hindus from the 1940s and a party which opposed the creation of Pakistan ... so there going and washing the Minar-e-Pakistan just means that their Brahminized form of Islam ...


Harish Mian,

After running from every board with your tail between your legs, I suppose it makes sense that you would bring up cases from the 1980s in the immediate aftermath of Zia`s Islamisation... The fact of the matter is that this fellow will be acquitted... but Shah Bano begum`s alimony issue on which the secular Congress for its old Islamist allies passed an Act of Parliament overturning SC`s ruling.... will forever remain an example of how Indian ``secularists`` want Muslims to be ..

Ref Mantolives #61

[However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.]

Yasser, dear boy, I assure you I won`t wash my house with water or any other liquid after a visit by you. I do remember however that the Minar-e-Pakistan was ritually washed after Vajpayee visited it. So you really want to be careful with your comments about who washes places visited bu people of other faiths.

On the other hand, if that ugly fcuker Soysauce visits my house, I will have to call in a priest and go through a purification ceremony!

#60 by harimau

The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

Yaar Harimau, while Pakis may want to fool the world about how modern justice is in Pakistan, people are being tried and sentenced to detah by Sharia courts even after being acquitted by the secular courts. So much for modernity!!!

`This is our last chance to save my brother`

Excerpts

``When Mirza-Tahir Hussain was 18, he left his home in Leeds and went on holiday to Pakistan to visit relatives. Eighteen years later, he is still there, on death row at Adiala prison in Rawalpindi, a few miles south of Islamabad, convicted for the murder of a taxi driver - a crime he vehemently denies. He was even acquitted of all charges 10 years ago by Pakistan`s high court, which criticised the police investigation.

``Soon afterwards, however, he was retried under sharia law, found guilty and sentenced to death. This Sunday, Mirza-Tahir Hussain is due to be hanged.``

Dear Harimau,

While the Mullahs have come into power in NWFP... pray tell where they`ve banned TV? Yes they tried to ban cable and failed miserably. They tried to ban cinemas in Ramazan and they failed. So your point is ridiculous and indicative of your inherent ignorance and stupidity. Hudood Ordinance is the result of military rule and not the people of Pakistan. And while under Pakistan`s Muslim Family law Ordinance 1961 ... a Muslim man has to follow a proper procedure to divorce his wife.... and remarrying requires special municipal permission... and a Muslim man has to pay alimony to his wife.... in India, 62 year old women are deprived of their alimony in the name of Islam by the secular parliament.

And I can imagine what or how sweepers are forced to live in Gandhi`s casteist India.. but my sweeper owns a proper 5 marla house (125 yards) in Youhana Abad... and he is a christian. However, I didn`t need to ask him that as the operative information that I required to employ him was his place of residence and not his religion... since we don`t practice ``untouchability`` and are houses don`t need to be washed with Gao-Mutra after a person of the wrong faith visits it ... as is the wont of you Indians.

Ref Mantolives #57

[I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... ]

Meanwhile in Pakistan you have got the Maulanas in power in NWFP who have banned TV, music, movies, etc. The maulanas in India have not succeeded in enacting anything like the Hudood Ordinances which are unique to Pakistan and 7th century states like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

[my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones.]

You are not sure of his religion but you are sure he owns a house. More like he lives in a hut in a slum; don`t call it a house.

Since you aren`t sure about his religion, you might want to take him to the nearest mosque and have him say out loud the kalima. Just to be sure, give him a plate of beef. You might want to go the whole hog and bugger him too. That would be complete confirmation that he has embraced Islam.

So, Yasser, dear boy, when are you going to be championing minority rights in Pakistan a la Jinnah in India?

What? Cat got your tongue?

Dear Ranjit,

Most of the anecdotal evidence you`ve provided might be true for some and not so true for others. Lahore and Islamabad are considered much safer and secure than Karachi .. Karachi as a city was thrown to dogs in the 1980s... The violence and sectarian strife in Karachi is the direct result of our meddling in Afghanistan and the arming of militias like Harkat-ul-Mujahidin, Lashkar-e-Taiba and others in the 1980s. The shia-sunni violence you see in Karachi is the blowback of General Zia-ul-Haq`s policies in Karachi. It takes time... but things are getting better. As such this is not the failure of Pakistan but the failure of its establishment to be more people friendly.

Similarly... there is no high unemployment amongst knowledge labour. In the past few years the Job market in Pakistan has been on the upsurge. Just visit Rozee.pk or brightspire or Abacus Careers ... infact there are hundreds of job portals... the market for Engineers and MBAs has grown tremendously. Infact because of large number of available opportunities, has led to a turnover rate that is phenomenal. The average time for a skilled worker in a job before he moves to greener pastures is now less than a year. Infact such is demand for qualified skilled labor that a huge burden is placed on our universities and colleges to produce more and more Engineers and MBAs... the average starting salary has double to close to a Rs 80-100 K whereas it used to be only 25-30 only two years ago. The average 6.9% ... my cousins... Two Engineers and one MBA are now earning well in excess of 100 k each ...

Anecdotal evidence in the end counts for nothing. My suggestion- visit Pakistan and see for yourself or research the issue.

Re:Manto#57

This is a good discussion to have. I have never been to Pakistan but I do have several Pakistani friends and colleagues. Since you gave a lot of anecdotal evidence, here is what I have heard from my friends.

From what I have heard, the picture is nowhere as rosy as you are depicting. There are three things that they always mention. Firstly is the security situation. Almost uniformly every Pakistani has told me that the lawlessness, crime and sectrianism has reached unbearable dimensions all over Pakistan. My friend in New Jersey comes from a well to do family in Karachi. He was kidnapped from the road in Karachi in broad daylight and tortured for several days before his father was able to pull some levers and get him released. His father`s side is Sunni and his mother`s is Shia. He tells me that such marriages have become very rare now. Even in his own family, one side calls the other Kaffir, even though everyone is well educated. As far as crime is concerned, he says that it is extremely lawless all over. Carjackings, robbery, rape are common, even from the airport to go to home. As per him, muslims in India may face communal violence but that is rare (leave aside exceptions like Gujarat). At least day to day, they do not face a security nightmare.

The second thing is the lack of a meritocracy in all institutions especially in employment. Almost everything happens due to `sifarish` and `jaan-pehchaan`. My father knows your father. So he may give me a job or promotion or business deal based on that and so on. Genuine merit and fairness is missing at most places.

The third thing is the economy. Almost every Pakistani has told me that the economy stinks and every one is eager to immigrate to the west. There is high unemployment among engineers, MBAs and other educated people i.e. knowledge workers.

There is one thing in which you are right. Indian muslims are backward socially as compared to Pakistanis. My Pakistani friend tells me that when his cousins from UP visit Karachi, they are stunned to see that women are not in burqas and there is a lot of free mixing between men and women, parties and so on. In fact, he feels his cousins from India are like country bumpkins, very naive and innocent, accustomed to a simple life. However, I wonder if you are aware that Indian muslims have taken to education in a huge way. Indian muslim newspapers are full of accomplishments of Indian muslim students. The overall economic boom in India is certainly helping everyone including muslims.

So at the end of the day, what can we conclude? Pakistanis are richer than Indian muslims, but have a tougher life. Indian muslims are poorer but lead a simple, secure life. And the future prospects are bleak compared to Indian muslims who are coming up in a big way.

Harimau,

I see you are still stuck with the whole ``education`` thing. Looks like I have touched a raw nerve. But yes .. coming as it did from someone like you who couldn`t even get into a decent community college and had to settle for El-Kamino ... I must say I am very insulted.


Dear Ranjit,

I am glad that you atleast tried to understand what was being said, unlike these other folk here. A visit to Pakistan will show you that some of these pre-conceived notions exist mainly in the fertile Indian imagination. First what you see as ``elite`` in Pakistan is not necessarily the elite. Pakistan`s social stratification is not as rigid as other places and you often find people moving brackets quite easily. While in the 1990s, Pakistan fell back... but generally the trend has been restored. Pakistan`s Telecom sector boom over the past few years as well as this general services oriented economy has enriched a lot of people... I think we are not following this Elite-NonElite distinction but Pakistani society more than ever is now seeing the consolidation of a national bourgeoisie ... and this is what Pakistan`s achievement is.

Is the common Muslim doing better in Pakistan or India? Quite the contrary to your assertion, I find it is the elitist Muslims who are doing well in India and not the common folk.. Premji`s father was one of the richest men in India even in the 1930s... meanwhile most of your bollywood and other celebrity Muslims like Azmi and Javed Akhtar constitute a small group on the top. The Muslim multitudes in India have been left behind in destitute slums around Chandni chowk and the like... which is why I find this entire exercise of fudged figures laughable. What is more is that because of history, these multitudes have been left to Maulanas of parties like Jamiat-e-Ulema-Hind and people like Bukhari... because these are the most willing allies of the Congress Party. The Maulanas of Deoband want Indian Muslims to remain destitute, poverty stricken and ``god fearing`` so that their reign of irrational dogma continues in perpetuity. Meanwhile in Pakistan... my sweeper, whose religion I am not sure of, owns a house, a motorbike and I think two cell phones. In extreme cases I have seen Munshis around high court who drive to work on a Honda Civic VTI. Perhaps much of this is ill-gotten... perhaps all, but the point is that the common man in Pakistan has been enriched...

Look this is the litmus test. Ask any Indian who has visited Pakistan whether poverty and prosperity in Pakistan live in watertight compartments. In Pakistan, there is no secluded Golflinks believe me... The point is that Pakistan is a society in transition and the enrichment .... especially in recent years due to property boom and job creation .... is more or less evenly spread. I know many nay sayers will get up and abuse me... but if you are ever in Lahore be sure to visit a place called Hall Road ... here you will find people with the smallest possible shop fronts... with barely room to sit. Many of them would be uneducated and unsophisticated and clearly from the ``lower income bracket``... many of them would either take the bus there or have scooters... but if you check up on them.. you`ll find that many of them would own bungalows in the richest and poshest parts of the city. Another test you can do is... that even today after much of the terror hype... tally the number of Pakistani International students from Pakistan on a major university campus and compare it with the number Indian Muslim international students from India...

-YLH

Ref Mantolives #54

Yasser, dear boy, it is a good thing you enrolled in law school in Pakistan after your Rutgers degree. I don`t think you would have passed LSAT in the USA.

Anyway, best wishes for a stint at Lincoln`s Inn where you can hang out with your buddy Jinnah`s spirit. Then perhaps you would be able to see the light just as Jinnah did and fight for minority rights and the right of secession in Pakistan.

Re:Mantolives

Manto, the basic question is whether muslims are better off in Pakistan or India, as things stand today. Conventional wisdom would suggest that in a muslim majority state like Pakistan, it would be a slam dunk that muslims would be better off. However, that is not the case. The jury is out on this one.

For starters, muslim elites are doing exceedingly well in Pakistan. No doubt about that since they control everything. There are relatively few muslim elites in India and though they have decent, comfortable lives, it is nowhere close to the lavish lifestyle of the elites in Pakistan. For that matter, even hindu elites in India do not have a lavish life, given the Indian culture of frugality.

Leaving the elites aside, for the regular people - middle class or lower, the Indian economic boom is benefiting all sections including muslims. That is closing the gap on opportunities available in Pakistan stemming from being in a majority. So it boils down to this - being a minority in a prosperous country versus being a majority in a poorer country. Which one is better?

Dear Harimau,

You seem to have too much confidence in your community college. I for one did stake any claim on any genius... But it seems that your horse`s basic math skills imploded earlier... and there wasn`t anything your community college education could do to help her.

Ref Mantolives #47

[Yaar Harimau,

Looks like they didn`t teach you or Sadna basic logic in your community college did they?]

Yasser, dear boy, if anyone needs remedial training at a community college, it would be you. And that would be AFTER your graduation from Rutgers.

Ref HP #49

[Monto is right that the Indian numbers are fudged. Then there is also the question of whether India or Pakistan use the same literacy criterion or it is different for both countries.]

Absolutely. Reciting the Koran verbatim without being able to read or write is NOT considered proof of literacy in India.

Thanks for pointing out this issue.

HP

Excellent point. I have a feeling Sadna knew that in 1947 Pakistan consisted of East Pakistan as well... but deliberately decided to leave this out to further fudge her figures.

Dear Sadna...

The comparison here was between the literacy rates of Muslims of areas that are now part of the Indian Republic.... and the literacy rates of Muslims of areas that now form Pakistan.
Are you denying that the gap was much larger ... even if we accept your fudged figures.
Abusing me.... as is your wont... will not change the fact that literacy rates of the latter even by your fudged statistics have grown much faster than former.

Your 14% and 97% is merely dirt that you think can throw in people`s eyes... since we are comparing communal groups A and B as a whole ... A= Indian Muslims B= Pakistani Muslims.

For your benefit I produce ... my argument again:

If literacy rates of Muslims living in areas now part of Pakistan were half or less than half of the literacy rates of Muslims living in India in 1947... and in 2006, the gap has come to 2%-5% percentage points (that too according to your fudged figures) which group has made a greater proportional progress vis a vis literacy?

And this argument does not take into account the facts that Indian Muslims today bitterly dispute the Census of India figures. And this argument does not take into account the fact that Pakistani Non-Muslims today bitterly dispute the Pakistani census figures and claim that they constitute close to 10% of the population. Even without these two facts, your basic argument falls flat on its face, Harimau`s propping notwithstanding... and Indian superiority sounds like a false spin.

Sadna,

``India`s literacy rate in 1951 was 18% and Pakistan`s was 16%. ``
Don’t have much time to get into this but the numbers quoted above include East Pakistan. east Pakistan certainly had a better literacy rate than the west Pakistan which barring a few urban areas, was mostly tribal. The literacy rate in the current Pakistan could not have been more than 10 percent in 1951.

The best way is to look at this is to get the province wise literacy rates in 1951.

Monto is right that the Indian numbers are fudged. Then there is also the question of whether India or Pakistan use the same literacy criterion or it is different for both countries. The issue is not as generic as you make it out to be.

Info for general public :
India`s literacy rate in 1951 was 18% and Pakistan`s was 16%.

http://www.education.nic.in/adledu.asp
http://acr.hrschool.org/mainfile.php/0138/185/


#47

My #43 was in reply to your ``argument`` in #42 which was

``you forgot to mention that the Pakistani figures are inclusive of all Pakistanis and not just Muslims... so this isn`t really a comparison of Muslim literacies is it. ``

It is certainly a comparison of Muslim literacies. As shown in #43, the 3% minority cannot affect the 97% majority Muslims figures significantly. Even if 3% minority have 0% literacy, to show an overall figure of only 54%, the 97% majority would have only 55.6% literacy.


``Was my argument dependant on Pakistani muslim literacy rates being higher than Indian Muslim literacy rates? No.``

What argument? Absolutely nowhere in your meaningless rants have you said what is it in my post #31 that you are arguing about.

Your handwaving with unsubtantiated aka concocted numbers and namecalling both cannot be termed either information or logic. Moreover, neither your unsubstantiated aka concocted numbers pulled out of your behind nor namecalling is at all relevant to my point which I will restate and be done.

``Anyone who gets Pakistanis to admit that as a 97% Muslim majority their literacy rate is lower than that of Indian Muslims, a 14% minority, will be one of the greatest reformers of these times.``

Yaar Harimau,

Looks like they didn`t teach you or Sadna basic logic in your community college did they?


Sadna,

For all your refrains about basic math, you do suffer badly when it comes to basic logic and basic English comprehension levels... Was my argument dependant on Pakistani muslim literacy rates being higher than Indian Muslim literacy rates? No.

Now lets see.. given your fudged and disputed figures ... we have established that the Muslim literacy in Pakistan is somewhere above 54% right? Yes or no? And we are, for the moment, accepting your contention that Indian Muslim literacy rate is 59%....

So with these two givens.. answer this basic question

If literacy rates of Muslims living in areas now part of Pakistan were half or less than half of the literacy rates of Muslims living in India in 1947... and in 2006, the gap has come to 2%-5% percentage points (that too according to your fudged figures) which group has made a greater proportional progress vis a vis literacy?

And this argument does not take into account the facts that Indian Muslims today bitterly dispute the Census of India figures.

And this argument does not take into account the fact that Pakistani Non-Muslims today bitterly dispute the Pakistani census figures and claim that they constitute close to 10% of the population. Even without these two facts, your basic argument falls flat on its face, Harimau`s propping notwithstanding... and Indian superiority sounds like a false spin.

Ref sadna #44

[#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.]

Our dear boy Yasser went to Rutgers.

You might want to make some allowances for that.

Dasgupta Sir

Now that the discussion is cooling off, you may want to give the following a thought.

`Reform,` one assumes, is a transitive verb (Grammar Gurus may help us here). One re-forms some specific thing. At some point in time, you might pinpoint what that specific thing being reformed here was, and how its shape was re-formed (form before the reform and form after the reform). Once that clarification has been provided we would be able to see whether you did justice to your subject.

Thanks for listening. Best wishes for the series.

#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.

Pakistan is 97% Muslim according to Pak government`s own figures. Blaming 3% nonMuslim population for bad overall literacy rate of Pakistan does not work given the math.

Overall rate literacy (R_ = 0.97 * Muslim rate (MR) + 0.03 * nonMuslim rate (NR)

If R = 54 (overall literacy rate) and MR = 59 (equal to Indian Muslim rate), NR = -107% in other words Pakistani nonMuslims would need to have negative literacy rates for you to be able to blame them for bringing down the overall Pakistan literacy rate.

In other words with 54% overall literacy there is no way that the Pakistani Muslim literacy rate can equal much less exceed the Indian Muslim rate 59%.


Instead of cooking up figures with no references while calling me a liar for quoting government stats from government websites, find something better to do with your life.

PS:

I also want to point out that in your zeal to prove India`s superiority, you forgot to mention that the Pakistani figures are inclusive of all Pakistanis and not just Muslims... so this isn`t really a comparison of Muslim literacies is it.

Dear Sadna,

I rubbished your false superiority complex without even challenging your fudged figures which almost every Indian Muslim considers fudged. You had no answer ... so you`ve now fallen on familiar patterns.

#40
Don`t look now, but all your huffing and puffing amounts to precisely nothing. Your opinion of me is totally and completely irrelevant to the question of Muslim literacy rates.

Sadna,

I must say that you are by the far most ridiculously bigoted and inhuman Indian I have come across in my life. The fact of the matter is that you are incapable of reforming yourself and your inner demons so why even talk of reform. Your wasted exercise in 31 which was meant to establish some sort of Indian superiority is what stands in the way of peace itself.

beady #32
#38 is what I meant - a typical mindlessly triumphalist mindset which rejects mere facts about Muslims` human condition and stands in the way of all reform.

Dear Sadna,

Could you explain - honestly and in a non-Indian fashion- what exactly those numbers would mean...

Even if we were to accept your figures as the gospel truth... it goes without saying that the gap between the Indian Muslim minority in India and those of the corresponding agriculturalist and ``martial`` Muslims of Punjab, NWFP, Sindh, and Balochistan pre-partition was a much higher gap than today... this had to do with the classification of Punjab as ``martial province``, the neglect of Balochistan and NWFP because of the prevalence of the Sardari and Khan nizam... and the wadero system in Sindh... all deliberate British policy... this is precisely why the top leadership of Pakistan was derived almost entirely from Muslims who lived or had made their careers in what is now India... and this is precisely why Pakistan`s bureaucracy early on was completely dominated by the Mohajirs... hence the distinction of regulation and de-regulation provinces should have to be taken into account...

So in effect... Pakistan has taken a previously completely uneducated lot and forced them to educate and modernise... and closed up the gap even by your distorted and fudged figures shows how - despite Pakistan`s neglected education system- the education of Muslims has been an overwhelming success... But people like you do whatever they can to distort the facts and fail to put things in their proper perspective...

So simply... Your figures (biased and unreliable as they are coming from state propaganda) actually show that despite all of Pakistan`s failures ... literacy in Pakistan areas has shown a much greater upward movement than amongst Indian Muslims.

Bhaskar Dasgupta, {``It is one of the few institutions, which is taking definite steps in making sure that the Indian Muslim population comes to grips with the modern world.``}

Dasgupta Sahib,
Thank you for a very informative and well-written article about this great reformer and activist. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, in his own days, encountered the all too often familiar rebuke of the Mullahs. In this age of crazy madrassas and even crazier teachers and graduates, it is reassuring that certain Muslims were much more capable in uplifting the standard of education.

I am equally fascinated by his superhuman ability to transcend centuries though:

{`` However, after his father died in 1938, he was forced ..... and finally in 1967, the Muhammadan Anglo-Oriental (MAO) School in Aligarh.

Re: # 33 and Beady,

I tend to agree with Masadi, upto a point. You see most of the elite donot seem to understand Islam, its tenets, philosophy, how it relates to the world and other civilisations. They have no understanding of western philosophical principles, nor do they understand the oriental ones. even the language of discourse is different. Both groups could be talking in English but they just spear past each other. They, the so called liberal elite, can develop arguments on the fly. Unfortunately, this only leads in one direction that of raising ethnic problems whilst forgetting the global context.

Look around you on this website. Young promising minds, with plenty of energy, over a period of time fall prey to this localised ethinc syndrome (maybe we can call it KATLES - KAals Theory of Localised Ethnicity Syndrome). I would not want to name names, but you can guess them.

(the only one who came close to developing this understanding was Iqbal of yore. Unfortunately he went awol with his ideas and soon disappeared into some philosophical black hole.).

Re: # 30 and #32 But there have been few Syeds who have left their mark. The result is what wheel Of time suggests (See #33 from Wheel of Time.)

#33 agreed O wheel Of time!
Places like the AMU and Jaamia are supposed to produce great thinkers. Perhaps AMU did produce these thinkers. But they semed to have biten the dust, and you the who exercise is reduced to your last few sentences.

To get above the local ethnic concerns, as you put it,you would need be training and developng minds. Maybe at this juncture this is not as important as producing people who can earn a living, and generate wealth within the society. Who knows in a few years from now you would get these great minds.

I will quitely lay a bet that these two institutions will provide the world with these great minds in the near future.

Good article on a great and important man.

However, to be really significant in a global-theological sense, such a liberal voice will need to arise, surive, and dominate in an Islamic country. ``Indian-Muslim`` issues appear Islamic only in juxtaposition to other, non-Islamic Indian issues. Within the world of Islam, they are more ethnic concerns than religious ones.

#29: Manto, the problem is that I dont really want to target every possible factor behind this issue. That way, we just go about needlessly exciting electrons on the internet. The objective was to see if one has examples from history which broke the back of the obscurantists, and as Sir Syed has proved, it can be done. Not enough, but it has been done.

#30 by strongman_dick. Well, as we have seen above, Sir Syed did go and beard the mullah`s in their own den (pun intended).

#31 by sadna. Thank you for the note. One wonders if a further application of the rationalist ideas such as that of Sir Syed and expansion of minority educational institutions (as I am under no illusion that the public education system will get improved anywhere in a hurry) will help push the Indian Muslim literacy rate upwards. And, btw, I am not a reformer, I am a part time hack :)

Dear Author,

If you can merely get Pakistanis to admit that with 97% Muslim population, their literacy is lower than that of Indian Muslims (who constitute a minority of 14%), you will succeed in being one of the greatest reformer of our times.

The information is provided below. Good luck.


Indian Muslim literacy in 2001 India census:
Overall Indian Muslim literacy(age 7 and up): 59%

Indian Muslim literacy for ages 10 and up :
Indian Muslim female literacy: 49%
Indian Muslim male literacy : 67.95%


Pakistan literacy figures for ages 10 and up:
Female literacy : 41.75%
Male literacy : 66.25%

Overall Pak literacy as mean of the two: 54%


India data from
[1]http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Muslims.pdf
[2]http://www.censusindia.net/results/C_Series/C_series_pdf/C9_India.pdf
[3]http://www.censusindia.net/results/religion_main.html


Pakistan data From
[4]http://www.pakistantimes.net/2004/07/15/national4.htm
[5]http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arFY04/Chapter_8.pdf

Beady, conservatism has a strong hold on the muslim soceity. Specially of the religious variety. The old leaders realised this, and thought if they could get these guys to rule themselves, they could liberate themselves. Unfortunately the expereiment has not worked that well. Currently, if you listen to the masadi types, they are slowly integrating marxist ideas into their brand of islam. Soo they will say Marx copied the holy book!

Religious Conservatism is like a black hole with an enourmous pull. It sucks in everything and spits out the husk. (all religions are like that). Muslim Soceity has to learn to be able to resist that irrestible pull.

beady mian,

It is impossible for anyone to fully understand the complexity of the work of Hindu and Muslim reformers without being cognizant of the communal consciousness which was the engine behind their efforts... but then every people have a dogma... and Indians have theirs...


Ironmask...

You continously want to spin the whole thing to your own pet topics. Being a member of the privy council is quite different from knighthood... I have never considered knighthood or the title of ``Sir`` as much of an honor... but Privy Council or Inns of Court are essentially and qualitatively different from an honorific title like Sir..

Privy Council was essentially the equivalent of what Supreme Court of India or Pakistan are today... now it is true that Pakistan has had its share of Supreme Court losers... but judiciary in India has more or less maintained great respect and honor. To me Privy Council, US Supreme Court Justices, Indian Supreme Court Justices and some Pakistani Supreme Court Justices are equally honorable... Being a Supreme Court Justice is a great honor for anyone and does reflect on the person`s accomplishment ....

It is one thing to be open minded... it is quite another to become pigheaded (and trying to pass it off as lohay ka nuqab)... See your analogies and apply your mind to them for once ...

The rest of your comments smack of your ignorance of the ground reality.

Ref Mantolives #18

[The question ofcourse is what makes you think they`ve failed...

Muslim reformers lagged behind Hindu reformers by a good 60 to 80 years (approximately the time between Ram Mohun Roy and Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s efforts...). If anything we see the gap closing up. Today there is a Muslim bourgeoisie that has its own state ... ultimately, not far into the future, that state will become a democracy...]

But Osama bin Laden and cohorts are busy closing the gap between 2006 AD and 622 AD (in the reverse direction).

Pakistan will become a democracy the day pigs fly. And PIA Boeing 747`s don`t count!

First of all, thank you all for your kind comments, Second, apologies for the omissions or mistakes and third, apologies for the delay in writing, I didn’t expect this to be published as it happens!.

I have to admit that there is a huge amount of material out there on this remarkable man, and it was a struggle to hit the highlights. I will not comment on the TNT responses, that wasn’t my objective.

Iron_mask, yes, I am a bong indeed. But if you see, my point was this, looking at the current crop of muslim reformers (see my blog for the previous series or if you wish, I can drop the urls in here), the question was asked, have muslim reformers really made a difference? And looking at Sir Syed, yes, he has. Strangely enough, I have received many responses separately saying that the problem was not that but that we didn’t have more Sir Syed`s. So the technique works, it’s the quantity which is the issue.

#24 by kakolukiyum. I agree, despite some recent news stories about challenges that women students face in AMU. We need more of those types of institutions.

#25 by Naqshbandi. Thank you for the link. In return, I am giving this link which will definitely make you chuckle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Muslim_reformers

Dear Mr Dasgupta,

Thoroughly enjoyed your article, Many thanks....

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_Reformers_in_Islam/index.html

Bhaskar da,

A very good writeup on my alma mater......before this board rots into TNT, MKG, MAJ and YLH let me say this: AMU has been a godsend for muslim women`s education. I know many girls whose parents not have sent them for higher education anywhere else. And we once had a grrrreat hockey team from which many went on to play for India.
Got to run!!! Thanks again!

#5 by Mantolives

[A man who previously said, “``I look to both Hindus and Muslims with the same eyes and consider them as my own eyes. By the word nation, I only mean Hindus and Muslims and nothing else. We Hindus and Muslims live together under the same soil under the same government. Our interest and problems are common and therefore I consider the two factions as one nation” slowly changed his view and after the language riots, ended up saying ``I am now convinced that the Hindus and Muslims could never become one nation as their religion and way of life was quite distinct from one and other`` and ``I am convinced that both these communities will not join whole heartedly in anything. At present there is no open hostility between the two communities but it will increase immensely in the future.``

This I think sums up the beginning of the evolution of the two nation theory. ]


There is a small detail Mantolives forgot to mention.

The above quote is true as it pertains to Muslims and Hindus. AND IT IS ALSO TRUE AS IT PERTAINS TO MUSLIMS AND ANY OTHER COMMUNITY IN THE WORLD.

AND IT WILL INCREASE IMMENSELY IN THE FUTURE.

Check out the trends in EVERY European country, and in the rest of the world, as more and more Muslims migrate to infidel lands.

Guess why that is. The whole world is to blame. Only the Muslims are the good people.

#20 no mantolives, not Indian. I am not a head shaking desi. Nver have been and never will be.

I agree with your last but one paragraph. Underestimation always causes problems.

However, you have a point in paragraph 1: ``In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country ``

This has been the problem.

Let me interpret it another way:

this salariat class you talk about were nothing but the people who lost to the Brits (or the progeny of the people who lost to the brits) through shear incompetence. They had a vested interest in keeping things as they were and in this they have been successful. All that has happened is that the old class of losers were taken out of their old clothes and provided with suits, an oxbridge education, R.P. English etc. but their essence was not changed. There should have been a cleansing of the aegean stables. There was an opportunty and it was missed. For the same attitudes which lost the empire, came back to the fore again, and again. The Mai-baap raj.

In the east you had a new political class very aware of its rights and responsibilities. These two clashed and you got 1971. The minutae can be debated, but the gross overall picture was this - a clash of attitudes.

All that has happened in Pakistan, is that the old losers were brought back and provided with the power. The old habits of self-aggrandisement at the cost of all else have come back to haunt the people. You never ever want someone who lost their rights through incompetence back again, esp when they donot seem to have learnt anything.

Even the educated and liberated minds, indulge in this.

Let me be a bit naughty, and suggest even you - some one who has been educated in the egalitarian west, where independence of thought is nurtured succumb to this habit. Hence your constant harping on Privy Council Memberhsips, Inn Memberships, Knighthoods etc as a mark of the individuals contribution to society in which he lives rather than his real contribution to society and its mark now.

#20 no mantolives, not Indian. I am not a head shaking desi. Nver have been and never will be.

I agree with your last but one paragraph. Underestimation always causes problems.

However, you have a point in paragraph 1: ``In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country ``

This has been the problem.

Let me interpret it another way:

this salariat class you talk about were nothing but the people who lost to the Brits (or the progeny of the people who lost to the brits) through shear incompetence. They had a vested interest in keeping things as they were and in this they have been successful. All that has happened is that the old class of losers were taken out of their old clothes and provided with suits, an oxbridge education, R.P. English etc. but their essence was not changed. There should have been a cleansing of the aegean stables. There was an opportunty and it was missed. For the same attitudes which lost the empire, came back to the fore again, and again. The Mai-baap raj.

In the east you had a new political class very aware of its rights and responsibilities. These two clashed and you got 1971. The minutae can be debated, but the gross overall picture was this - a clash of attitudes.

All that has happened in Pakistan, is that the old losers were brought back and provided with the power. The old habits of self-aggrandisement at the cost of all else have come back to haunt the people. You never ever want someone who lost their rights through incompetence back again, esp when they donot seem to have learnt anything.

Even the educated and liberated minds, indulge in this.

Let me be a bit naughty, and suggest even you - some one who has been educated in the egalitarian west, where independence of thought is nurtured succumb to this habit. Hence your constant harping on Privy Council Memberhsips, Inn Memberships, Knighthoods etc as a mark of the individuals contribution to society in which he lives rather than his real contribution to society and its mark now.

Dear Ironmask,

Please look at the history of these problems and you will see that they are of recent origin and are of very temporary nature.

As for your assertion that bourgeoisie is no different in the aforementioned case, I think your assertion flies in the face of reality. Statistics show otherwise- Sumit Sarkar actually credits the new state with the creation of a solid bourgeoisie which did not exist in large numbers before... but see the point we started with. In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country but under them the country did quite well... In 1971, the separation of the East Wing deprived Pakistan of the indigenous Bengali bourgeoisie which was politically much more advanced than anyone else in the country.

The situation is markedly different. Never underestimate the effect of being forced into commerce, banking and other technical fields on a community that was till that particular point involved largely in agriculture and the army.

My submission is that a lot of what you write is borne out of misconceptions based on the fact that you`ve never actually visited Pakistan. A lot of this superiority complex that many Indians harbor under false pretences would shatter upon a single visit.

#17 no ego issues here YLH! Just suggesting the membeship of privy council should be the leading characteristic of the person. The issue is what have they done for the common people which is lasting. Membership of a club or otherwise is not important to me. If you say he invented this or discovered that law and was awarded the Nobel thats impressive. Knighthoods and Privy Council memberships for desis ...yes you said it right when you called them WOGs!

Again, the issue is not one of a ``gap``. That implies there is a competetion for reform!

The reform movements have not had that great an impact. Even if you take you example in #18, the said states` bourgeoisie are no better than before. If they were, the historical social trajectory of the state would have been different.

If they were succefful Musharaff would not have been there. And he wuld not have said on TV the various things he said, regarding Deen, Madarassas, jihad etc!

What you are subconsciously asking for is Time. Unfortunately Time is not something the world is willing to afford right now.

#16...

The question ofcourse is what makes you think they`ve failed...

Muslim reformers lagged behind Hindu reformers by a good 60 to 80 years (approximately the time between Ram Mohun Roy and Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s efforts...). If anything we see the gap closing up. Today there is a Muslim bourgeoisie that has its own state ... ultimately, not far into the future, that state will become a democracy...

Dear Ironmask,

Why must everything become an ego issue for you. I did not say that it was his claim to fame but it was put as a matter of fact ... and no- last I checked not every WOG got onto the privy council... but the list you gave ... lets look at it closely... There are atleast three people- if not more- who accepted knighthood... on the list that you`ve quoted... so let us drop this whole line shall we?

But most of the names you`ve quoted are quite famous Pakistani personalities...

YLH you are pretty widely read - tell us why have most of the refomers, failed at some level. Their impact has been felt on sections of the society other than their own community?
(I am again harking back Bongy`s first paragraph).

P.S I read #15, #10 etc and realise the nuanced nature of the arguments. However, the real question which needs to be answered is as bove.

Even bongy, having raised the question left that damn thing dangling!

#14 you needed to be a lackey of the brits and able to hold the Knife and fork right, and hold the G&T in your hand at the right angle! That was the key requirement for ``Privy Council``.

So from a desi PoV that cannot be his Claim to fame - rather should his claim to infamy!

On the other hand, what you said below in 2nd half of 14 suggests that he had something more in him. AS to AMU foundation etc, what about these guys


Dr. Mukhtar Ahmad Ansari (Delhi)

Mufti Kafayattullah (Delhi)

Maulana Abdul Bari Farang Mahali (UP)

Maulana Sulaiman Nadvi (Bihar)

Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (UP)

Maulana Husain Ahmad Madni (UP)

Chaudhury Khaleeq-uz-zaman (UP)

Nawab Mohammad Ismail Khan

Tasadduq Husain Khan (UP)

Dr. Mohammad Iqbal (Punjab)

Maulana Sanaullah Khan Amritsari (Punjab)

Dr. Saifuddin Kitchlew (Punjab)

Maulana Abul Kalam Azad (Bengal and Bihar)

Dr. Syed Mehmood (Bengal and Bihar)

Saith Abdullah Haroon Karachiwale (Sindh, Bombay and Hyderabad)

Abbas Tyabiji (Sindh, Bombay and Hyderabad)

Sait Miyan Mohammad Haji Jaam Chhotani (Sindh, Bombay and Hyderabad)

Maulavi Abdul Haq (Sindh, Bombay and Hyderabad)



you donot hear of them much - maybe becoz they were not part of the Privy Council!

Dear Ironmask,

Please read my post again. That was not his claim to fame... but a measure of how highly he was regarded to be given a seat on the Privy Council.

Jurist and educationist by profession, Syed Ameer Ali`s claim to fame was his approach to the history of Islam and its spirit. He wrote two books which became the manifesto of Muslim modernism...

1. History of Saracens

2. The Spirit of Islam

These books stirred millions of young Muslims around the globe... the young Turks and their revolution was directly inspired by Syed Ameer Ali for example. In India, he was one of the main patrons of Aligarh Muslim University and tried to organise the Muslim community enmasse under the ML flag....


I quote from Banglapedia:


His progressive stance on the status and rights of women in Islam was one of his most notable contributions. While he was admired by Islamic `modernists` for his leadership in these causes, he was criticized by others for his disinterest in the concerns of the Bengali masses. However, his voice, particularly in the crucial period of the 1870s, when Muslim spokespersons were few, was very influential in countering much misinformed or prejudiced Western criticism of Islamic history and society.

http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/A_0186.htm

YLH - as I said 180 Vs 1200 the score. For a subject of immediate interest to Muslims and people of the subcontinent...khair....

#10 YLH - getting in TNT will not really solve the problem. It just massages your own ego and you mess things up. If I could quote Bongy from the article

The most common comments I have received after writing about Muslim reformers is that they are unable to really do much to reform, liberalise or effect change. That is a fair comment and to reply to that, the only way is to look at what happened to the reformers and liberals of the past, and see what has been their impact on life in the Muslim world today, what can we learn from them and what lessons can the modern living reformers take from the wins and losses, threats and opportunities which faced our ancestors. In this first of a series of essays on muslim reformers of the 18th and 19th century, I explore the remarkable story of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, a polyglot, agricultural scientist, lawyer, judge, scientist, author, publisher, political leader, and most of all an educator (his greatest achievement which has survived up till now).

#10 Thanks YLH for that. However, your #10 loses it sheen, W.R.T. Ameer Ali, when you emphasise his claim to fme as being ``sat on the Privy Council in London in the early 1920s``
Now what exactly was his claim to fame W.R.T. reform?

ironmask,

Actually... the whole issue is more nuanced than that...

What I quoted from the article above in #5 was central to Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s achievement. It must be remembered that the quote- in my opinion - is from 1867 .... if not earlier. Once having reached the conclusion (that many others would as well), Sir Syed Ahmad Khan set about the task of imbuing the Muslim elite with modern education ... Aligarh Anglo-Muslim University was the result of this train of thought in #5 and not prior in time.

Another great Muslim reformer who is often forgotten is Syed Ameer Ali, who sat on the Privy Council in London in the early 1920s... a Muslim modernist par excellence, the author of ``History of Saracens``, moderniser, liberal ... and also the originator of the idea of separate electorates interestingly enough - at a time when others like Jinnah were committed to joint electorates.



The impact of modernity on communal consciousness ... both in forms of Hindu reformers and later Muslim reformers.... is often downplayed.... but it goes without saying that communal consciousness and a desire for the consociationalist two nation theory was formulated by men like Syed Ameer Ali and Sir Syed Ahmad Khan.

-YLH

#7 further

(5)The basis of all (progress) is that you should bring all treasures of knowledge under your control.

#5 But later in life he also said

(1)
``Remember that the words Hindu and Mahamedan are only meant for religious distinction—otherwise all persons, whether Hindus or Mohammedans, even the Christians who reside in this country, are all in this particular respect belonging to one and the same nation.``

(2)
Nothing is more disgraceful for any nation than to throw into the oblivion its historical heritage and the works of its ancestors

(3)We (Hindus and Muslims) should try to combine our hearts and souls and act in unison. If united, we can sustain.

(4)How good is the saying , whoever may be its author , that a humanbeing in composed of two elements – his faith which he owes to God and his moral sympathy which he owes to his fellow – beings Hence leave God’s share to God and concern yourself with the share that is yours.

Bongy, (you are it I assume), I wonder why comparable instituttions like AMU, Delhis Jaamia have not sprung up in other places. Today AMU and Jaamia in Delhi are producing the new middle classes from the Muslims and are highly competitive.

Syed`s lasting impact has got be the ideas he sowed, and the institutions he set up.
he might have made statements to the effect of what what Mantolives quoted in #5, but the quality of the people on both sides is to rise above these and go back to his original views.

A man who previously said, “``I look to both Hindus and Muslims with the same eyes and consider them as my own eyes. By the word nation, I only mean Hindus and Muslims and nothing else. We Hindus and Muslims live together under the same soil under the same government. Our interest and problems are common and therefore I consider the two factions as one nation” slowly changed his view and after the language riots, ended up saying ``I am now convinced that the Hindus and Muslims could never become one nation as their religion and way of life was quite distinct from one and other`` and ``I am convinced that both these communities will not join whole heartedly in anything. At present there is no open hostility between the two communities but it will increase immensely in the future.``

This I think sums up the beginning of the evolution of the two nation theory.

[On top of all the events of 1857 branded Muslims as traitors, hunted from door to door, and publicly executed in the bazaars.]

Hey, not a bad course of action. We should have followed it after 9/11.

bhaskar,

thanks for writing this article related to my alma mater.

considering the implications of AMU to Indian Muslims, I would argue that efforts of Muslim reformers has not been in vain.

Yes but it can be said that there have been very few commendable reformers. What Indian Muslims needed was few more individuals like Sir Syed but that did not happen.

One disturbing fact is that the institutes established by Sir Syed now seems a far cry from the very principles of modernity and progressive vision on which these were based.They now seem to be stuck in an era of some typical filmi awadhi or lukhnavi culture with people speaking in urdu emanating from the inner depths of one`s throat.Be it Aligarh or Jamia millia Delhi same feeling of frozen in time captivates you.Whatever be the reason, discrimination or lack of able leadership and funds to maintain the academic excellence, the once producers of giants are now churning out mediocrity.
It was the selfless and tireless efforts of Sir Syed which made possible this scholarly muslim rennaissance possible by avoiding the path of confrontation with the Company Bahadur and learning modern arts and sciences.He was also the originator of modern muslim thought which was further developed by Iqbal,Maulvi Abdul Haq and other eminent muslim scholars.
I think we need another Sir Syed now who should lift these veils of suspicions and mistrust among hindus and muslims and marks the beginning of a new India free from religious riots and hate crimes.

AADMI SE DARTAY HO
AADMI TAU TUM BHI HO
AADMI TAU MEIN BHI HUN
ZINDAGI SE DARTAY HO
ZINDAGI TAU TUM BHI HO
ZINDAGI TAU MEIN BHI HUN

---

(Noon Meem Rashid)

Thank you BD for this article. There are a few ommissions - I will not dwell on it.

It is timely. not only is it timely but different and highly relevant.

It is telling that this article has had to be written by a Britisher of Indian descent and a Hindoo to boot.

Be prepared for brickbats and other assorted verbal stuff coming yourway. At worst you will find it ignored at best you will be questioned regarding your authenicity to write such an article.

Well done Chowk staff. You do have a knack of coming up trumps from time to time.