Muslim Reformers - A Peek Into the Past

Dear Harimau,

You seem to have too much confidence in your community college. I for one did stake any claim on any genius... But it seems that your horse`s basic math skills imploded earlier... and there wasn`t anything your community college education could do to help her.

Ref Mantolives #47

[Yaar Harimau,

Looks like they didn`t teach you or Sadna basic logic in your community college did they?]

Yasser, dear boy, if anyone needs remedial training at a community college, it would be you. And that would be AFTER your graduation from Rutgers.

Ref HP #49

[Monto is right that the Indian numbers are fudged. Then there is also the question of whether India or Pakistan use the same literacy criterion or it is different for both countries.]

Absolutely. Reciting the Koran verbatim without being able to read or write is NOT considered proof of literacy in India.

Thanks for pointing out this issue.

HP

Excellent point. I have a feeling Sadna knew that in 1947 Pakistan consisted of East Pakistan as well... but deliberately decided to leave this out to further fudge her figures.

Dear Sadna...

The comparison here was between the literacy rates of Muslims of areas that are now part of the Indian Republic.... and the literacy rates of Muslims of areas that now form Pakistan.
Are you denying that the gap was much larger ... even if we accept your fudged figures.
Abusing me.... as is your wont... will not change the fact that literacy rates of the latter even by your fudged statistics have grown much faster than former.

Your 14% and 97% is merely dirt that you think can throw in people`s eyes... since we are comparing communal groups A and B as a whole ... A= Indian Muslims B= Pakistani Muslims.

For your benefit I produce ... my argument again:

If literacy rates of Muslims living in areas now part of Pakistan were half or less than half of the literacy rates of Muslims living in India in 1947... and in 2006, the gap has come to 2%-5% percentage points (that too according to your fudged figures) which group has made a greater proportional progress vis a vis literacy?

And this argument does not take into account the facts that Indian Muslims today bitterly dispute the Census of India figures. And this argument does not take into account the fact that Pakistani Non-Muslims today bitterly dispute the Pakistani census figures and claim that they constitute close to 10% of the population. Even without these two facts, your basic argument falls flat on its face, Harimau`s propping notwithstanding... and Indian superiority sounds like a false spin.

Sadna,

``India`s literacy rate in 1951 was 18% and Pakistan`s was 16%. ``
Don’t have much time to get into this but the numbers quoted above include East Pakistan. east Pakistan certainly had a better literacy rate than the west Pakistan which barring a few urban areas, was mostly tribal. The literacy rate in the current Pakistan could not have been more than 10 percent in 1951.

The best way is to look at this is to get the province wise literacy rates in 1951.

Monto is right that the Indian numbers are fudged. Then there is also the question of whether India or Pakistan use the same literacy criterion or it is different for both countries. The issue is not as generic as you make it out to be.

Info for general public :
India`s literacy rate in 1951 was 18% and Pakistan`s was 16%.

http://www.education.nic.in/adledu.asp
http://acr.hrschool.org/mainfile.php/0138/185/


#47

My #43 was in reply to your ``argument`` in #42 which was

``you forgot to mention that the Pakistani figures are inclusive of all Pakistanis and not just Muslims... so this isn`t really a comparison of Muslim literacies is it. ``

It is certainly a comparison of Muslim literacies. As shown in #43, the 3% minority cannot affect the 97% majority Muslims figures significantly. Even if 3% minority have 0% literacy, to show an overall figure of only 54%, the 97% majority would have only 55.6% literacy.


``Was my argument dependant on Pakistani muslim literacy rates being higher than Indian Muslim literacy rates? No.``

What argument? Absolutely nowhere in your meaningless rants have you said what is it in my post #31 that you are arguing about.

Your handwaving with unsubtantiated aka concocted numbers and namecalling both cannot be termed either information or logic. Moreover, neither your unsubstantiated aka concocted numbers pulled out of your behind nor namecalling is at all relevant to my point which I will restate and be done.

``Anyone who gets Pakistanis to admit that as a 97% Muslim majority their literacy rate is lower than that of Indian Muslims, a 14% minority, will be one of the greatest reformers of these times.``

Yaar Harimau,

Looks like they didn`t teach you or Sadna basic logic in your community college did they?


Sadna,

For all your refrains about basic math, you do suffer badly when it comes to basic logic and basic English comprehension levels... Was my argument dependant on Pakistani muslim literacy rates being higher than Indian Muslim literacy rates? No.

Now lets see.. given your fudged and disputed figures ... we have established that the Muslim literacy in Pakistan is somewhere above 54% right? Yes or no? And we are, for the moment, accepting your contention that Indian Muslim literacy rate is 59%....

So with these two givens.. answer this basic question

If literacy rates of Muslims living in areas now part of Pakistan were half or less than half of the literacy rates of Muslims living in India in 1947... and in 2006, the gap has come to 2%-5% percentage points (that too according to your fudged figures) which group has made a greater proportional progress vis a vis literacy?

And this argument does not take into account the facts that Indian Muslims today bitterly dispute the Census of India figures.

And this argument does not take into account the fact that Pakistani Non-Muslims today bitterly dispute the Pakistani census figures and claim that they constitute close to 10% of the population. Even without these two facts, your basic argument falls flat on its face, Harimau`s propping notwithstanding... and Indian superiority sounds like a false spin.

Ref sadna #44

[#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.]

Our dear boy Yasser went to Rutgers.

You might want to make some allowances for that.

Dasgupta Sir

Now that the discussion is cooling off, you may want to give the following a thought.

`Reform,` one assumes, is a transitive verb (Grammar Gurus may help us here). One re-forms some specific thing. At some point in time, you might pinpoint what that specific thing being reformed here was, and how its shape was re-formed (form before the reform and form after the reform). Once that clarification has been provided we would be able to see whether you did justice to your subject.

Thanks for listening. Best wishes for the series.

#43
Get someone to teach you basic math.

Pakistan is 97% Muslim according to Pak government`s own figures. Blaming 3% nonMuslim population for bad overall literacy rate of Pakistan does not work given the math.

Overall rate literacy (R_ = 0.97 * Muslim rate (MR) + 0.03 * nonMuslim rate (NR)

If R = 54 (overall literacy rate) and MR = 59 (equal to Indian Muslim rate), NR = -107% in other words Pakistani nonMuslims would need to have negative literacy rates for you to be able to blame them for bringing down the overall Pakistan literacy rate.

In other words with 54% overall literacy there is no way that the Pakistani Muslim literacy rate can equal much less exceed the Indian Muslim rate 59%.


Instead of cooking up figures with no references while calling me a liar for quoting government stats from government websites, find something better to do with your life.

PS:

I also want to point out that in your zeal to prove India`s superiority, you forgot to mention that the Pakistani figures are inclusive of all Pakistanis and not just Muslims... so this isn`t really a comparison of Muslim literacies is it.

Dear Sadna,

I rubbished your false superiority complex without even challenging your fudged figures which almost every Indian Muslim considers fudged. You had no answer ... so you`ve now fallen on familiar patterns.

#40
Don`t look now, but all your huffing and puffing amounts to precisely nothing. Your opinion of me is totally and completely irrelevant to the question of Muslim literacy rates.

Sadna,

I must say that you are by the far most ridiculously bigoted and inhuman Indian I have come across in my life. The fact of the matter is that you are incapable of reforming yourself and your inner demons so why even talk of reform. Your wasted exercise in 31 which was meant to establish some sort of Indian superiority is what stands in the way of peace itself.

beady #32
#38 is what I meant - a typical mindlessly triumphalist mindset which rejects mere facts about Muslims` human condition and stands in the way of all reform.