Muslim Reformers - A Peek Into the Past

Dear Ironmask,

Why must everything become an ego issue for you. I did not say that it was his claim to fame but it was put as a matter of fact ... and no- last I checked not every WOG got onto the privy council... but the list you gave ... lets look at it closely... There are atleast three people- if not more- who accepted knighthood... on the list that you`ve quoted... so let us drop this whole line shall we?

But most of the names you`ve quoted are quite famous Pakistani personalities...

#16...

The question ofcourse is what makes you think they`ve failed...

Muslim reformers lagged behind Hindu reformers by a good 60 to 80 years (approximately the time between Ram Mohun Roy and Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s efforts...). If anything we see the gap closing up. Today there is a Muslim bourgeoisie that has its own state ... ultimately, not far into the future, that state will become a democracy...

#17 no ego issues here YLH! Just suggesting the membeship of privy council should be the leading characteristic of the person. The issue is what have they done for the common people which is lasting. Membership of a club or otherwise is not important to me. If you say he invented this or discovered that law and was awarded the Nobel thats impressive. Knighthoods and Privy Council memberships for desis ...yes you said it right when you called them WOGs!

Again, the issue is not one of a ``gap``. That implies there is a competetion for reform!

The reform movements have not had that great an impact. Even if you take you example in #18, the said states` bourgeoisie are no better than before. If they were, the historical social trajectory of the state would have been different.

If they were succefful Musharaff would not have been there. And he wuld not have said on TV the various things he said, regarding Deen, Madarassas, jihad etc!

What you are subconsciously asking for is Time. Unfortunately Time is not something the world is willing to afford right now.

Dear Ironmask,

Please look at the history of these problems and you will see that they are of recent origin and are of very temporary nature.

As for your assertion that bourgeoisie is no different in the aforementioned case, I think your assertion flies in the face of reality. Statistics show otherwise- Sumit Sarkar actually credits the new state with the creation of a solid bourgeoisie which did not exist in large numbers before... but see the point we started with. In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country but under them the country did quite well... In 1971, the separation of the East Wing deprived Pakistan of the indigenous Bengali bourgeoisie which was politically much more advanced than anyone else in the country.

The situation is markedly different. Never underestimate the effect of being forced into commerce, banking and other technical fields on a community that was till that particular point involved largely in agriculture and the army.

My submission is that a lot of what you write is borne out of misconceptions based on the fact that you`ve never actually visited Pakistan. A lot of this superiority complex that many Indians harbor under false pretences would shatter upon a single visit.

#20 no mantolives, not Indian. I am not a head shaking desi. Nver have been and never will be.

I agree with your last but one paragraph. Underestimation always causes problems.

However, you have a point in paragraph 1: ``In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country ``

This has been the problem.

Let me interpret it another way:

this salariat class you talk about were nothing but the people who lost to the Brits (or the progeny of the people who lost to the brits) through shear incompetence. They had a vested interest in keeping things as they were and in this they have been successful. All that has happened is that the old class of losers were taken out of their old clothes and provided with suits, an oxbridge education, R.P. English etc. but their essence was not changed. There should have been a cleansing of the aegean stables. There was an opportunty and it was missed. For the same attitudes which lost the empire, came back to the fore again, and again. The Mai-baap raj.

In the east you had a new political class very aware of its rights and responsibilities. These two clashed and you got 1971. The minutae can be debated, but the gross overall picture was this - a clash of attitudes.

All that has happened in Pakistan, is that the old losers were brought back and provided with the power. The old habits of self-aggrandisement at the cost of all else have come back to haunt the people. You never ever want someone who lost their rights through incompetence back again, esp when they donot seem to have learnt anything.

Even the educated and liberated minds, indulge in this.

Let me be a bit naughty, and suggest even you - some one who has been educated in the egalitarian west, where independence of thought is nurtured succumb to this habit. Hence your constant harping on Privy Council Memberhsips, Inn Memberships, Knighthoods etc as a mark of the individuals contribution to society in which he lives rather than his real contribution to society and its mark now.

#20 no mantolives, not Indian. I am not a head shaking desi. Nver have been and never will be.

I agree with your last but one paragraph. Underestimation always causes problems.

However, you have a point in paragraph 1: ``In 1947, there was hardly any indigenous bourgeoisie in the regions that now constitute Pakistan... an imported and small Muslim salariat tasked with ruling the country ``

This has been the problem.

Let me interpret it another way:

this salariat class you talk about were nothing but the people who lost to the Brits (or the progeny of the people who lost to the brits) through shear incompetence. They had a vested interest in keeping things as they were and in this they have been successful. All that has happened is that the old class of losers were taken out of their old clothes and provided with suits, an oxbridge education, R.P. English etc. but their essence was not changed. There should have been a cleansing of the aegean stables. There was an opportunty and it was missed. For the same attitudes which lost the empire, came back to the fore again, and again. The Mai-baap raj.

In the east you had a new political class very aware of its rights and responsibilities. These two clashed and you got 1971. The minutae can be debated, but the gross overall picture was this - a clash of attitudes.

All that has happened in Pakistan, is that the old losers were brought back and provided with the power. The old habits of self-aggrandisement at the cost of all else have come back to haunt the people. You never ever want someone who lost their rights through incompetence back again, esp when they donot seem to have learnt anything.

Even the educated and liberated minds, indulge in this.

Let me be a bit naughty, and suggest even you - some one who has been educated in the egalitarian west, where independence of thought is nurtured succumb to this habit. Hence your constant harping on Privy Council Memberhsips, Inn Memberships, Knighthoods etc as a mark of the individuals contribution to society in which he lives rather than his real contribution to society and its mark now.

#5 by Mantolives

[A man who previously said, “``I look to both Hindus and Muslims with the same eyes and consider them as my own eyes. By the word nation, I only mean Hindus and Muslims and nothing else. We Hindus and Muslims live together under the same soil under the same government. Our interest and problems are common and therefore I consider the two factions as one nation” slowly changed his view and after the language riots, ended up saying ``I am now convinced that the Hindus and Muslims could never become one nation as their religion and way of life was quite distinct from one and other`` and ``I am convinced that both these communities will not join whole heartedly in anything. At present there is no open hostility between the two communities but it will increase immensely in the future.``

This I think sums up the beginning of the evolution of the two nation theory. ]


There is a small detail Mantolives forgot to mention.

The above quote is true as it pertains to Muslims and Hindus. AND IT IS ALSO TRUE AS IT PERTAINS TO MUSLIMS AND ANY OTHER COMMUNITY IN THE WORLD.

AND IT WILL INCREASE IMMENSELY IN THE FUTURE.

Check out the trends in EVERY European country, and in the rest of the world, as more and more Muslims migrate to infidel lands.

Guess why that is. The whole world is to blame. Only the Muslims are the good people.

Bhaskar da,

A very good writeup on my alma mater......before this board rots into TNT, MKG, MAJ and YLH let me say this: AMU has been a godsend for muslim women`s education. I know many girls whose parents not have sent them for higher education anywhere else. And we once had a grrrreat hockey team from which many went on to play for India.
Got to run!!! Thanks again!

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_Reformers_in_Islam/index.html

Dear Mr Dasgupta,

Thoroughly enjoyed your article, Many thanks....

First of all, thank you all for your kind comments, Second, apologies for the omissions or mistakes and third, apologies for the delay in writing, I didn’t expect this to be published as it happens!.

I have to admit that there is a huge amount of material out there on this remarkable man, and it was a struggle to hit the highlights. I will not comment on the TNT responses, that wasn’t my objective.

Iron_mask, yes, I am a bong indeed. But if you see, my point was this, looking at the current crop of muslim reformers (see my blog for the previous series or if you wish, I can drop the urls in here), the question was asked, have muslim reformers really made a difference? And looking at Sir Syed, yes, he has. Strangely enough, I have received many responses separately saying that the problem was not that but that we didn’t have more Sir Syed`s. So the technique works, it’s the quantity which is the issue.

#24 by kakolukiyum. I agree, despite some recent news stories about challenges that women students face in AMU. We need more of those types of institutions.

#25 by Naqshbandi. Thank you for the link. In return, I am giving this link which will definitely make you chuckle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Muslim_reformers

Ref Mantolives #18

[The question ofcourse is what makes you think they`ve failed...

Muslim reformers lagged behind Hindu reformers by a good 60 to 80 years (approximately the time between Ram Mohun Roy and Sir Syed Ahmad Khan`s efforts...). If anything we see the gap closing up. Today there is a Muslim bourgeoisie that has its own state ... ultimately, not far into the future, that state will become a democracy...]

But Osama bin Laden and cohorts are busy closing the gap between 2006 AD and 622 AD (in the reverse direction).

Pakistan will become a democracy the day pigs fly. And PIA Boeing 747`s don`t count!

beady mian,

It is impossible for anyone to fully understand the complexity of the work of Hindu and Muslim reformers without being cognizant of the communal consciousness which was the engine behind their efforts... but then every people have a dogma... and Indians have theirs...


Ironmask...

You continously want to spin the whole thing to your own pet topics. Being a member of the privy council is quite different from knighthood... I have never considered knighthood or the title of ``Sir`` as much of an honor... but Privy Council or Inns of Court are essentially and qualitatively different from an honorific title like Sir..

Privy Council was essentially the equivalent of what Supreme Court of India or Pakistan are today... now it is true that Pakistan has had its share of Supreme Court losers... but judiciary in India has more or less maintained great respect and honor. To me Privy Council, US Supreme Court Justices, Indian Supreme Court Justices and some Pakistani Supreme Court Justices are equally honorable... Being a Supreme Court Justice is a great honor for anyone and does reflect on the person`s accomplishment ....

It is one thing to be open minded... it is quite another to become pigheaded (and trying to pass it off as lohay ka nuqab)... See your analogies and apply your mind to them for once ...

The rest of your comments smack of your ignorance of the ground reality.

Beady, conservatism has a strong hold on the muslim soceity. Specially of the religious variety. The old leaders realised this, and thought if they could get these guys to rule themselves, they could liberate themselves. Unfortunately the expereiment has not worked that well. Currently, if you listen to the masadi types, they are slowly integrating marxist ideas into their brand of islam. Soo they will say Marx copied the holy book!

Religious Conservatism is like a black hole with an enourmous pull. It sucks in everything and spits out the husk. (all religions are like that). Muslim Soceity has to learn to be able to resist that irrestible pull.

Dear Author,

If you can merely get Pakistanis to admit that with 97% Muslim population, their literacy is lower than that of Indian Muslims (who constitute a minority of 14%), you will succeed in being one of the greatest reformer of our times.

The information is provided below. Good luck.


Indian Muslim literacy in 2001 India census:
Overall Indian Muslim literacy(age 7 and up): 59%

Indian Muslim literacy for ages 10 and up :
Indian Muslim female literacy: 49%
Indian Muslim male literacy : 67.95%


Pakistan literacy figures for ages 10 and up:
Female literacy : 41.75%
Male literacy : 66.25%

Overall Pak literacy as mean of the two: 54%


India data from
[1]http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/Summary%20Muslims.pdf
[2]http://www.censusindia.net/results/C_Series/C_series_pdf/C9_India.pdf
[3]http://www.censusindia.net/results/religion_main.html


Pakistan data From
[4]http://www.pakistantimes.net/2004/07/15/national4.htm
[5]http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arFY04/Chapter_8.pdf

#29: Manto, the problem is that I dont really want to target every possible factor behind this issue. That way, we just go about needlessly exciting electrons on the internet. The objective was to see if one has examples from history which broke the back of the obscurantists, and as Sir Syed has proved, it can be done. Not enough, but it has been done.

#30 by strongman_dick. Well, as we have seen above, Sir Syed did go and beard the mullah`s in their own den (pun intended).

#31 by sadna. Thank you for the note. One wonders if a further application of the rationalist ideas such as that of Sir Syed and expansion of minority educational institutions (as I am under no illusion that the public education system will get improved anywhere in a hurry) will help push the Indian Muslim literacy rate upwards. And, btw, I am not a reformer, I am a part time hack :)