Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

#387

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2304/stories/20060310005611700.htm


IN the landmark re-trial of the Vadodara Best Bakery case in Mumbai, the Special Court sentenced nine accused to life imprisonment and acquitted eight. Additional Sessions Judge Abhay Thipsay also issued a show-cause notice to five of the witnesses, Zaheera Sheikh and her family, for turning hostile in court and `deliberately giving false evidence`. This is the first time that there has been a retrial of a case in another State.
....

Yet, the accused were convicted primarily because of the evidence provided by five more eyewitnesses who testified in Mumbai. Yasmin Sheikh, Zaheera`s sister-in-law, and four injured bakery workers were not called as witnesses in the Vadodara trial. But in Mumbai, their statements clinched the verdict. In the Vadodara Court, 68 witnesses had turned hostile, while in Mumbai, only seven of 74 went back on their statements.

Re: # 387

Gujarat (Hindu Pakistan) is under the tight grip of extremists. I dont know when that cud come out of it. As u know the judges too are drawn form the society. Not just Best Bakery case but in another case of a tribal girl who was raped by his Guru in an ashram, the judge gave his judgement that blamed the illiterate, innocent tribal girl. That means she was raped again by the judiciary.

Ditto Best Bakery. The activits tried to dispense justice but the brother of Zaheera did domersault (for the sake of some chips/money). Zaheera did the same mistake but she was caught lying, so the punishment.

RSS extermists are replicating the well known tactic of IAML of assmebling a mob, so that these attacks cant be booked as nobody cud be pinpointed for violence.

If u take other states in India for dispensing justice, they pass the test of impartiality.

Arjun,

Pakistan is not a << potentially dangerous ‘rogue nuclear state’ that quietly supports terrorism.>>

It is only some elements in the ISI & the Army or the Jehadi mullahs like Masadi who support terrorism. Unfortunately they have been allowed to wield far too much influence and have hurt Pakistan badly in all spheres- Politics, Diplomacy, Economics, Technology,-- you name it.

But all this is changing. It has to change and cannot be allowed to go on. And remember, in stupidities, India may be similar or worse....

as i said many times before i`m no fan of the british empire, but what iread they always held fair trials for the ``terrorists``. usa is illegally occupying guantanomo bay and doing it`s dirty washing there.

Re: # 386

Even in the Best Bakery case, the Indian courts could not convict a single murderer. The only person to be jailed, unfortunately, was the eye-witness Zahira Sheikh.

So much for the fearless and independent judiciary operating in ``the largest democracy in the world``....

meanwhile in india:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2004041.cms

`Is police paid to arrest Muslims?`

MUMBAI: Sisters of Shahnawaz Qureshi have got a lot of questions for the system. Qureshi is accused number 29 in the 1993 blasts was convicted of planting explosives at Plaza theatre, which killed 10 and injured 37.

``The police caught our brother and the court convicted him. But what about those involved in riots, raping Muslim women, killing innocent boys, demolishing the Babri Masjid? What have the police done about all that?`` Najma, the eldest of 12 siblings, asked.

The sisters work as domestic helps. They also double up as zari weavers in their spare time. Their parents passed away — it was ``trauma``, the sisters said on Monday — and Qureshi went without a lawyer as the family had no money.

All the family members justify Quereshi`s act. ``Where was the government when hundreds of Muslims were killed in Surat, Mumbai, women raped and our mosque demolished?

``Four of our relatives were killed in the riots. Is the police paid to arrest Muslims only?`` another sister, Parveen, asked.

While the number-doa amreekans, greencarders, or workvisaed here were trying to wish for a safe-haven , it was a good idea to approach my real amreekan ( read Born; Mayflower pedigree types) friends to do an informal how-dos on this matter.

When they learnt that these Kalloo-wheatish-brownies were getting edgy to hurl themselves back into pre-civilrights days they howled with laughter.....Once their laughter subsided and I tried to edge in to have my say the howled guffaws erupted and erupted and erupted..

Finally I asked their candid opinion and mind you these guys are no Chmsky readers. These guys have let me into their inner-sanctums where they still drink what kalloos dream & rue the day they defeated the British.

But then facts are facts: They said something for which I was not ready
`` Even if Islam conquers the world, it will STILL be a WHITE muslim who will be the Khalifa. They reminded me in no uncertain terms that it is all about the RACE stupid. Be it Israel, or Arab, or China, or Russia``

and I could hear the voice of the Maulana echo in my ears when he said in the last Jumaa Khutbaa: `` Darwin`s played the RACE card; Marx played the ECONOMICS card; and Freud played the SEX card...and the ethos of any ONE factor being the PRIMEMOVER for human action to dominate the other... have all been proven wrong. ``

The west is in a hurry to bury itself...it has no choice except to embrace the coming new-world order or perish by its own policies of social, economic and racial deviancies .

Can`t Cantonement-canines, Colony-cockroaches and Missionay-macacas smell it coming?

---

and here are the opinions of the genuine #1 Maal (real Amreekans) & not that of
2-number maal like Q2s or Q32s here.

Opinion:1

It looks like islam is winning everywhere in the West,not because they are smarter or more educated(which they`re not) but because they have the stronger will power,discipline and patience.
We westerners look for instant gratification,while muslims are ready to wait us out ,even if it`ll take hundreds of years and the sacrifice of a few generations.
For every minor victory of ours,they score hundreds of significant wins,and for every step that we take forward,they take ten and then they push us back a few...
In the end it will be decided by an allout war and one side will have to totaly anyhilate the other in order to be able to survive.

opinion:2

We have something to learn from what they did in the aftermath of the pummeling. Instead of focusing all their efforts on a losing fight with a superior army, Hezbollah moved rapidly into the devastated areas of Lebanon with Iranian money and committed manpower to start the rebuilding. Money that could have been spent on more guns and rocket launchers instead went to families that lost homes, who received an average of $12,000 apiece. Hezbollah’s response to the damage has been noticeably more efficient and effective than the government’s.

The result? A groundswell of popular support for Hezbollah in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world.

What this means is that, after some $1.6B of Israeli military expenditures, the destruction of Lebanon’s infrastructure, and massive loss of life, Hezbollah came out stronger than they began as an organization.

``I don’t want anyone in the cabinet to say it is an insurgency. I don’t think we are there yet.``

-- President Bush, as reported in the New York Times per Bob Woodward`s latest, speaking back in November of 2003.

By November of 2003 more American servicemen had died since May 1st of that year than had during the so-called ``major combat`` stage of the conflict in March and April of 2003. As this deteriorating security situation was intensifying, rather than focus on forging a serious counter-insurgency strategy, our President was instead pre-occupied with assuring no one in the councils of power use the ``I`` word. And we are told to believe we have Churchills at the helm. Bah! These are incompetents at the helm, not serious war leaders.


A long time ago, I was discussing civil rights movement with a black guy and he said, “every time a person of color would put the white man in the corner, racism would ooze out of Whiteman’s every pore.” How true…..

The Islamist nutballs call him ``Mujahid Margolis``..Capt Clueless thinks very highly of him....

and now he weighs in..

The US threat to bomb Pakistan is yesterday’s news
BY ERIC S. MARGOLIS

PAKISTAN President Pervez Musharraf provoked an uproar last week during his North American media blitz to promote his new book, In the Line of Fire. Pakistan’s leader claimed that soon after 9/11, US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage warned Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmed, the then head of ISI that the US would ``bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age`` if it did not immediately turn against its Afghan ally, Taleban, and allow the US to use military bases in Pakistan to invade Afghanistan.

Armitage denied threatening war on Pakistan. But this writer revealed just such threats in his 2002 book, War at the Top of the World.

I met with Gen. Mahmud, before 9/11. He and Lt. Gen. Mohammed Aziz were Pakistan’s top military officers who put Musharraf into power. After 9/11, they were ousted under US pressure for being ‘too Islamist.’ After 9/11, I learned from Pakistani security sources that Armitage had indeed delivered an ultimatum threatening war if Pakistan did not swiftly bow to US demands.

Pakistan’s efforts to make the Bush administration understand it was supporting Taleban to maintain order in Afghanistan, keep the Russian-backed Afghan Communist Party in check, and to block Indian and Iranian influence there, fell on deaf ears.

So was ISI’s insistence that Taleban had no knowledge or part in the 9/11 attacks, and bore no ill will towards the United States. Quite the contrary, many Taleban commanders were originally armed, financed and trained by CIA in the 1980’s. But enraged Americans were demanding revenge for 9/11. They wanted targets, not explanations.

I’ve heard various versions of Armitage’s exact words. But I know whatever he said profoundly shook Pakistan’s military leadership.

ISI sources say the Bush administration threatened to bomb faithful old ally Pakistan, cut off its oil, collapse its banking system and call in its loans. More frightening, Washington also threatened to ‘unleash’ India against Pakistan, either allowing India to conquer the Pakistani-held portion of disputed Kashmir, or give Delhi a green light to invade all of Pakistan, possibly with American assistance.

Leaked cabinet documents from 10, Downing Street show that three months before invading Iraq in 2003, President Bush told British PM Tony Blair that once he finished off Iraq, he planned to ‘go after’ Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Pakistan was in America’s cross hairs.

Gen. Musharraf thus faced a horrible choice: Abandon Pakistan’s national interests in Afghanistan for which it had faced down the mighty Soviet Union in the 1980’s. Allow a hostile regime to be established there dominated by Pakistan’s blood enemies, the Afghan Communists, Iran and India. And abandon Pakistan’s most cherished national cause, the 50-year struggle to free Kashmir of Indian rule.

Or else stab anti-Communist ally Taleban in the back, give military bases to the US, abandon the struggle in Kashmir, bow to Washington’s commands, and face the wrath of Pakistanis crying out that Musharraf had sold out to the Americans. This is, of course, what has happened, leaving Musharraf increasingly isolated and unpopular at home. Pakistan’s media bitterly noted that Taleban’s tribal warriors resisted US B-52 carpet-bombing for two weeks. Pakistan caved in after a single threatening phone call.

Musharraf claimed he ‘war gamed’ a US attack and concluded his nation would lose. Pakistan might have resisted a US attack, but certainly not a joint US-Indian offensive. So he had little choice.

But many Pakistanis believe Musharraf was far too eager to comply with Washington’s demands and to turn against Pakistan’s old friends and allies. But the ‘carrot’ of $4 billion of US aid and secret CIA stipends distributed to Pakistan’s ruling elite proved persuasive.

Every time Pakistan got into trouble with Washington, it would suddenly discover ‘one of al-Qaeda’s top commanders’ and deliver him to the Americans. So far, almost 700 have been sent, in each case for rewards of millions of dollars, as Musharraf unwisely boasted.

Last Wednesday, President George Bush hosted a tense dinner for Karzai and Musharraf, who detest one another. As the Afghan war goes increasingly badly for the western powers, Karzai keeps blaming Musharraf for allowing Taleban to operate inside Pakistan and launch cross-border attacks on Afghanistan. Musharraf fired back that Karzai was a figurehead who had no control of his country. Both accusations are true.

Washington keeps demanding Musharraf crack down on Pakistan’s pro-Taleban Pashtuns. But Washington fails to understand that too much pressure on these fierce warriors who comprise 15-20 per cent of Pakistan’s population could quickly reignite Pashtun demands for a separate state, or union with their fellow tribesmen in Afghanistan.

Musharraf sold a lot of books in the US, but he unfortunately did not do much to lessen America’s mistaken view of Pakistan as a potentially dangerous ‘rogue nuclear state’ that quietly supports terrorism.

Re: # 334 by zeemax on September 30, 2006 9:15pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

Thank you for your response. I respect your values. I expect you to respect my values, and I am sure that you do behave as such.

Before commenting on your posts, I want you to understand that coming from a Zoroastrian background, I have a totally different take on the Abrahamic religions. Intellectually speaking I find it very difficult to accept the notion of angels, etc., that the Abrahamic religions have so successfully promoted in the past 2,000 years.

Most of us know that beliefs are stuck in time, and knowledge is constantly evolving.

{But your question assumes that Muslims have no use for or respect for intellect. That is naivete` on your part and the obvious black/white mindset which is so damaging. }

Your assumption is absolutely correct. Muslims, by their own volition, have suggested that they have no use or respect for intellect. And this is rather obvious in the vibrating mad-mullah-o-crat masadi`s many posts.

{I have said before that faith begins where intellect reaches its outer limits, and both are not mutually exclusive.}

Actually, it is the reverse of what you are suggesting. Faith or belief resides is in the inner core, and at the outer core is where the intellect starts. Intellect can never start developing in those who are unable to be open minded. Thus, there is a centripetal force to bring individuals to the inner core (towards the center of their belief), which is sometimes far greater than the centrifugal force to take these individuals out into the realm of intellects. As you have most commonly heard use your brains. It is very difficult for believers to utilize their brains.

This is the main reason for mad-mullah-o-crats like masadi to be in constant struggle between their faith and their intellect. Such individuals have not be at the stage of intellectual development, and as such they continue to promote their holy books (core belief`s) suggesting that somehow faith is far superior than the intellect.

{I can only state my gross understanding that the principles of Islamic society are ingrained with the salient principles of socialism such as equality, justice and even centrally planned economy of marxism.}

Actually, this is exactly what was being promoted by my muslim friends in Pakistan, except of course by those in the Jamaat-e-Islami and the bearded boys of Noorani, etc. Political expediency of some is not what this discussion is about.

{Albeit, Islam presents a spiritual dimension in the whole mix which is absent in socialist-marxist line of thought. So Masadi isn`t contradicting himself or vacillating at all. He knows what he`s talking about. }

Actually, I disagree with you. Mad mullah-o-crat masadi has no idea what he is talking about. His hatred of the west is obvious to us all and he knows that most of the interacts on this chowk are muslims, from time to time, he throws in his holy books to make his arguments palatable.

He usually double speaks and vibrates between the two extremes of his self, and that is exactly what is happening to his posts. He has as yet been unable to be authentic about his inner core values. Is masadi (or even yourself) a true Quran thumping believer or is he a free thinking intellectual? He can never be both at the same time, and that is true for all believers.

And until that gets resolved, we will continue with our efforts to marginalize his values, and thoughts.

Respectfully submitted,

if you listen hard you can hear the train coming:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-jordan1oct01,0,3931407,full.story?coll=la-home-world

Jordan`s King Risks Shah`s Fate, Critics Warn

October 1, 2006

AMMAN, Jordan — A politically inexperienced king takes control of a Middle Eastern monarchy from his powerful father, surrounds himself with U.S. military hardware and spies, loses touch with his people and is finally ejected in a popular uprising.

That was the tale of Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi, the pro-American ruler of Iran whose ouster ushered in the reign of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and three decades of Islamic rule.

Now many in this Arab country of more than 5 million people fear that a similar fate could befall King Abdullah II, the Jordanian monarch who assumed power after his charismatic father died in 1999.

...``The son has gotten more in bed with the United States,`` he added. ``He hasn`t been distancing himself from American policy. That has put him in a hole he hasn`t been able`` to get out of.

Numerous parallels exist between the shah`s rule and that of Abdullah. Like the shah`s SAVAK security and intelligence service, Jordan`s General Intelligence Department, now in a new hilltop complex in an Amman suburb, operates as a ``subdivision`` of the CIA, said Alexis Debat, a former French Defense Ministry official who is a counter-terrorism consultant and a senior fellow at the Nixon Center in Washington.

Extremist Islam May Be Rising in Morocco

By JOHN THORNE
The Associated Press
Friday, September 29, 2006; 6:45 PM

RABAT, Morocco -- Little would seem to connect a soldier, a shopkeeper, airline pilots` wives and a woman known for helping people in need. But all have been named as suspects in a purported Islamic terrorist plot, suggesting extremism may be leaping Morocco`s class divides.

In all, Moroccan authorities arrested 56 people last month for allegedly being part of a network that was planning attacks on military and tourist sites in hopes of bringing down the government of this North African monarchy.

...Thousands have been detained, drawing frequent accusations of abuse and forced confessions at the hands of police.

What`s new in the latest case is the wide range of people accused. Middle-class women and security force members allegedly formed the core of a group that authorities say called itself Ansar al-Mehdi, or Supporters of the Mehdi _ a divine figure in Islamic tradition who will establish justice on Earth before Judgment Day.

Previously, Islamic extremism was most evident in Morocco`s urban slums like Sidi Moumen, the cinderblock jungle in Casablanca where many of the 2003 suicide bombers lived. If the charges are true, the new case would suggest Muslim militancy is spreading into the middle class.

what are gora lovers going to say now?

on multiple occasions jinnah had warned that violence against the goras would not end as long as goras messed around in the m.e:

``The leader of our delegation to the UNO, Sir Mohammad Zafrullah Khan, has clearly defined out position regarding the latest developments in Palestine and I do still hope that the partition plan will be rejected, otherwise it is bound to be the gravest disaster and unprecendented conflict, not only between the Arabs and the authority that would undertake to enforce the partition plan, but the entire Muslim world will revolt against such a decision which cannot be supported historically, politically or morally.``

to his credit musharraf has made this point on multiple occasions during his recent visit to the u.s. evidence has also now come to light that the british even while double crossing the arabs agreed with jinnah`s assessment :

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/29/europe/EU_GEN_Britain_Mideast_Documents.php

Records from 1949 show British Cabinet`s concern about Arab nationalism and Muslim revival

Published: September 29, 2006

LONDON The British Cabinet in 1949 argued about whether government policy in the Middle East would foment Arab nationalism and unrest, according to documents released Friday.

...``Also want to avoid cross purposes with Pakistan. The two ends of Muslim world Turkey and Pakistan are very important. Which way will they lead the Muslim world? We may be sowing seeds today,`` the notes record Bevin as saying.

``Believe in Muslim revival. Can`t assume it will be friendly whatever we may do,`` the notes also record him as saying.

...``I have no confidence in Iraq etc. Pouring money down drain,`` the notes record Bevan saying. ``If we have to secure our oil, we may have to act, but not by buttressing Arab States.``

remarks about pakistan also are very relevant. pak has been the biggest proponent of the ummah since independence. too bad other muslims have not come around and for that they have paid a price. things however are starting to change. goras lost iran with shah`s fall and turkey is slowly being wrested away from gora orbit. things are about to get very interesting.

#375 by hamidm2

Hamidm,
You are not reading between the lines here. This is not a war of civilization any more. It is the war of races.

I quote to the words of Justice Robert H. Jackson . He was US chief counsel for the allied powers. In his closing address to the international military tribunal he said:

“That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power has ever paid to Reason.”

On the fairness of the Nuremberg proceedings, he said in his closing statement:

Of one thing we may be sure. The future will never have to ask with misgiving, what
could the Nazis have said in their favor. History will know that whatever could be said, they were allowed to say. They have been given the kind of a Trial which they, in the days of their pomp and power, never gave to any man. But fairness is not weakness. The extraordinary fairness of these hearings is an attribute to our strength.


Were Nazis any better than these ragtag afghans and Arabs? Nazis killed more westerners, they bombed the hell out of England day in and day out. They killed more Russians than Stalin himself. Still the West was taking pride in providing them a chance to defend themselves in the court of law and they were shown the evidence in every single case but what do we have here?

For these Arabs and Afghan the US suspends the writ of habeas corpus. They are being sent to gallows and are being told that the evidence will not be shown to them as that would be a security risk.

This is clear racism. For a white Nazi fair trials and for the afghans and the Arabs: military courts.

I fully agree with the war against the fundamentalism and the jihadis but after five years, I clearly see which way the west is headed. I still love my Scotch and red wine but I also see the crap coming out of the racist West.

Re: # 376

zemmax,

...... we could do it if you guys stand down wind ..........

....contd....

One thing that Musharraf said in this trip which was 100% correct ... which was:

Forget about Al-Kaeda .. It`s the Taliban stupid ...

And Taliban will have the American scalp for this blunder of bombing them instead of talking to them. I doubt if the turn of events can be stopped now.

HP,

I wonder what it would take moderates in in the NOT SO “technological, economic and personal hygiene ” civilizations to crawl out of the dungeons after the “technological, economic and personal hygiene gap” types have left the field to the “the islomfascist” to write more books abt the lost war of civilizations.

This is an accurate description of the oncoming events. The frustration of the moderates shows in this statement. I think it is high time it was accepted that these technological, economic and personal hygiene gap types learnt to actually `talk` with the other technological, economic and personal hygiene gap types on the other side, instead of parroting ``We don`t talk with terrorists``.

And it won`t be fifty years either. The punchline will come sooner than anyone thinks.