Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

[Dear shishapa:

Where do I start on which policy of India towards Pakistan I do not like? ]

Start with the one that you have thought about using your brains, not with your penis, if there is one.


[Mind you, I am not a historian...]


That is no revelation.


[, but nevertheless let me go slowly on the time line basis. ]

Please. So we can keep up with the brilliant analysis.


[The very first is screwing Pakistan with its rightful name of India, that belonged to the muslims and not the Indians. How is that for a start? ]

What came first - pedophile followers, or Hindus? How is that for an answer? Eh? :)



[Ok, you want another small trivia,..]

You call this sea of knowledge ``trivia``? That is indeed impressive.


[... what about screwing Pakistan with the money that the British did not provide when dividing India?]

Screwing Pakistan is always a pleasure. And now it is USA`s turn to bend you guys over and apply the k-y. But I`ll have to admit, they are paying you for it.


[And what about the big one that most Indians constantly brag about in the international arena, and that is the right of Kashmiri citizens to the plebiscite.]


BECAUSE you ba$tards dishonoured the original agreement (that the Maharaja made, and that Jinnah signed on to), all subsequent agreements are null and void.
The rule for the future is - screw pakiland! :)


[Ok, another one, why was muslim Hyderabad annexed to India. ]

Because Nehru was a Pu$$y. He should have just denied all rail, road and air access to Hyderabad from the rest of the ummah world (which was perfectly legal, because we did not have any agreements regarding that), and let the motherF$$kers just starve to death.

(Hint: This is why a Pakiland was never going to be viable in the middle of India)


[Are these just enough for history lesson. ]

Thanks, professor.


[Also, why is the RSS collecting money in the US, and sending it to BJP to kill muslims in India? ]

Someone has to counter the jehad boxes that we see everywhere in the world.


[As for the Zoroastrians and their coming to India is concerned, I understand that they did flee to other places as well.]

Like where, genius? How many?


[Not to Africa, I suppose, how can one go across the heartland of the muslim invaders? ]

But I thought they were peaceful.


[Further, they continued fleeing in decades, and that too through treacherous mountainous terrains, and small boats etc. Remember, the conquering Arabs were all over the place showing their ``peaceful`` religion, I suppose. ]

And your point is?


[Yes, you can say whatever you want. Actually, Zoroastrian Avesta and Sanskrit are sister languages, and most of the upper class Hindoo Brahmans were of the Aryan race. But, are these the same people who squat on the railroad tracks of Mumbai? I think not. ]

Hey, I`m a Brahmin - I could NEVER be genetically associated with a turncoat vermin like yourself who would sell his mother for a piece of Islamic pu$$y. Check out the list of achievements of Brahmins over the centuries - is there a comparable list amongst the idiot Persians? Three thousand years of supposed Persian ``civilization``, and you guys have burnt tomato and boiled rice as part of your delicious Persian ``cuisine``. :)

We are NOT associated with idiots.

#703 by behram1

[...although the Prophet himself had admonished the recently converted Muslims to treat Ajami with a velvet glove.]


Like Dost-Mitter, you listened to your penis and converted. No amount of rationalization is going to change the fact that now you are stuck.

You are stuck, my friend, and cursing Hindus is not going to save your scrawny neck from the ever-watchful Muslims and their well-sharpened knives always on the lookout for apostates.

No velvet glove for you, I`m afraid.

:)

Re:behram1#703

[...And I still have no problem citing nonsense on those from India, because frankly, I do not like India`s policy towards Pakistan.....]

Behram, I understand that you were born and brought up in Pakistan and hence absorbed the anti-India bias there and a one-sided view of history.

However, I would ask you to look at the history of the subcontinent and its parallel with Iran. The same muslim invaders who savaged Iran reached the subcontinent after conquering Iran. If you need proof of violent conquest, just look at what happened to the areas of Pakistan and subsequently India. Your blood will freeze at reading about the heights of cruelty, massacare, destruction of temples such as Somnath temple etc. Entire adult male populations were wiped out in several towns of Pakistan. India still retains that memory because hindus survived that onslaught and fought back vigorously. We even ended up creating a new religion Sikhism to counter Islam. If hindus had all converted, no one today would remember those things, as is the situation in Iran.

At the end, we were able to indigenize Islam and make it a part of our mosaic in the subcontinent. A syncretic culture developed taking both hinduism and islam into account. Those historical wounds got reopened when partition happened creating a cleavage between hindus and muslims. Nevertheless, we hindus have retained that syncretic culture even to this day in India. That is why India is secular, while Pakistan is a overt/covert jihad supporter. Yes we wanted to keep Kashmir and Hyderabad, but that is because we want to continue and maximize that syncretic culture, not allow religious exclusivism and jihadi culture to take root there, unlike in Pakistan. As a Zoroastrian, you should appreciate the amazing lengths hindus have gone to continue a syncretic civilization in the face of jihadi extremists in Pakistan, whose dream is to do to India what happened to Iran i.e. complete Islamic conversion.

Had it not been for the Ajamis of Persia... the ex-Zoarastrians... the Saracens would never have been able to create a prosperous and remarkable civilisation... And Behram is absolutely right about the Prophet admonishing his followers... and Ali was the person who had opposed the brutality in persia recalling that the Prophet had called the persians the people of the book.

Re: # 704 by shishapa on October 8, 2006 7:18pm PT

Dear shishapa:

Where do I start on which policy of India towards Pakistan I do not like?

Mind you, I am not a historian, but nevertheless let me go slowly on the time line basis.

The very first is screwing Pakistan with its rightful name of India, that belonged to the muslims and not the Indians. How is that for a start?

Ok, you want another small trivia, what about screwing Pakistan with the money that the British did not provide when dividing India? And what about the big one that most Indians constantly brag about in the international arena, and that is the right of Kashmiri citizens to the plebiscite.

Ok, another one, why was muslim Hyderabad annexed to India.

Are these just enough for history lesson.

Also, why is the RSS collecting money in the US, and sending it to BJP to kill muslims in India?

As for the Zoroastrians and their coming to India is concerned, I understand that they did flee to other places as well. Not to Africa, I suppose, how can one go across the heartland of the muslim invaders?

Further, they continued fleeing in decades, and that too through treacherous mountainous terrains, and small boats etc. Remember, the conquering Arabs were all over the place showing their ``peaceful`` religion, I suppose.

{Can we say that one of the reasons is that they landed in India amongst Hindus?}

Yes, you can say whatever you want. Actually, Zoroastrian Avesta and Sanskrit are sister languages, and most of the upper class Hindoo Brahmans were of the Aryan race. But, are these the same people who squat on the railroad tracks of Mumbai? I think not.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 703

``I do not like India`s policy towards Pakistan.``

Behram, what policy or policies of India towards Pakistan you do not like or
did not like in the past? What in your opinion is India doing wrong towards Pakistan?
Do you think Pakistan has correct policy or had correct policy towards India?

Also, when Zoroastrians were fleeing Persia, why did they come to India?
Why did not they go to any other country like Turkey or Russia or Central Asia up north or
northwest or may be to Africa or go westward towards Europe (that probably would have
been difficult)?

``It must be a miracle that Zoroastriansm is still around,``

Can we say that one of the reasons is that they landed in India amongst Hindus?
Just like Bene Israelis who landed on India`s west coast and lived without any
religious problems until most decided to migrate to Israel after Israel was formed?

Re: # 696 by ranjit on October 8, 2006 2:54pm PT

Dear Ranjit:

I have no idea as to why I am responding to your post. But, nevertheless, here it is.

I do concur with you on what happened to Zoroastrian Persia, and the ruthlessness of the conquering Arabs, although the Prophet himself had admonished the recently converted Muslims to treat Ajami with a velvet glove.

But, politicians remain politicians, and therein lies the rub. Unfortunately for the Zoroastrians they were decimated by their ruling elite, and their political structures to begin with, and then they have to contend with the invading Arabs, who burnt their only library wherein we had our religious books.

Oops, I forgot the invaders were not at all coming in with force, but somehow the richly Persian were sabotaging the poor Bedouimns. How is that possible defies logic? Till this day the Persians consider themselves better than the whole wide world, but it was the lure of the new religion that brought the greatest human travesty on to their land.

Now, some of your comments regarding my own personal self and my opinions on this chowk.

{Behram, take a clue from your own slavish loyalty to Pakistan and your denigration of non-muslims in the worst possible language.} The Hindoos on this chowk were bringing all kinds of hatred regarding the holy books of Islam, and that is wrong. And I still have no problem citing nonsense on those from India, because frankly, I do not like India`s policy towards Pakistan.

{Zoroastrians did not fight and rolled over in the face of muslim invasions.}

That might be true when you consider the continuous brutality of the muslim rulers. Even till this day Muslim Iran considers all non-muslims as untouchables, but convincing these muslim idiots about this is almost calling a war with them upon myself. These folks will bring one nonsense after the other and the whole messy use of weapons of mass deflection will be thrown on to this site that poor Ghori Sahib, will have to throw some of his Ghauri also on this site.

{Yet in spite of that history, you have no resentment of Islam and prefer to be a chamcha to Pakistanis and attack Indians. Your ancestors that converted had a similar mindset.}

No, I have no resentment towards muslims generally, because two wrongs can never make a right. Yes, my father had to leave the cruelty of Muslim Persia and take refuge in Karachi, India, and I was born in Karachi, Pakistan. Personally, I have the highest love and regard for the muslims of Pakistan.

Now these days the undercurrent of the world event is such that a titanic is brewing amongst the enlightened world and the muslim world. Although, technically I might not be a muslim, I look like a muslim, I talk like a muslim, and I feel humiliated like a muslim in the west. So what am I supposed to do, with the features that I was born with. I look like a freaking good looking Persian.

{As compared to them look at the anger in muslims against crusaders and non-muslims who fought against them.}

Muslims are able to fight today because they have quantity, and Zoroastrians don`t. This is as simple as that.

Just look at the African muslims being slaughtered by the Arab muslims in Darfur, and maybe you might agree with me on this one.

{Also, look at the anger in India against muslim invasions.} Again, Hindoos have quantity and Parsees don`t.

{The fact of the matter is that people who have a strong sense of self-respect and value their heritage, fight tooth and nail to preserve that. People who roll over basically do not value their heritage and are bound to lose it. That why Zoroastrians are now on the verge of extinction.}

It must be a miracle that Zoroastriansm is still around, because it had a sound policy of helping the society we live in. Some consider us the biggest schmoozers, so be it. It is a value that shows prudence and acceptance of the world we are in. We bear no ill will towards anybody. As you are probably aware of, religiously speaking we have never believed in quantity at all.

Respectfully submitted,

prophet tahmed(peace be unto your self-righteous posterior): your phony outrage would be mildly amusing if you pakis didn`t have that little problem of killing more muslims in 71 than US, Israel and India put together..

And a nation that`s pretty much a condom isn`t exactly the gold standard in self-respect...

Re:tahmed#697

[..ranjit #696 ``slavish loyalty to pakistan``?? do patriotic pakistanis offend you that much?..]

No they dont. Patriotic Pakistanis who support the wellbeing of Pakistan are fine. However, patriotism does not mean demeaning the other side and calling them the worst possible names. Behram has called hindus the worst possible names, made fun of poor people as railway squatters and worse.

I can even understand all that if he was a typical jihadi muslim who hate hindus with a passion. In his case, it becomes several times worse, given that fleeing zoroastrians were given refuge and a life by hindus. The zoroastrians survived in India to form the parsi community that is one of the richest communities in India. Yet he savages hindus in this manner, the very same people who gave succor to his fleeing ancestors from Iran on whose behalf he is arguing with zeemax/echo. Now you understand why he offends me?

Re: # 695

Tahmad Sahib:

I do not think you have read what I have been writing at Chowk. I believe terrorism and extremism are the problem.

Islam is redundant in all stretegic equations. It has been made part of the equations by Arabs to get wider support. Be it OBL`s journey to Afganistan. You should read my earlier response to Romair. Sadly there is no forceful leader in the middle east to take Islam out of the equation.

I believe Iran might just do it, for the first time in recent history. They are just showing to the world that nuclear capability is an issue, not a muslim Iran enrichening it.

Alternatively, let me say if what happens in middle east had happened in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Chechnya or other muslim countries, Arabs would not have even bothered.

Ironically this kind of behavior smacks colonialism. If something happened in colonies it was only their local concern, but when something happened in Colonizing countries it was a matter for all colonies. Like it or not that is how I, a non-religious (= non-muslim) person sees it.

Unlike you I do not define the cuts and views through the religious diamond. Religion is just not for me. I do not believe we have to enslave ourselves, our knowledge, and our thoughts to 2,500 year old, or 1,400 year old absolutisms. Knowledge has overcome all impediments, it has selected gems from all previous knowledge and built on it.

I see problems a lot closer to humanity and attribue to human behavior.

If you, like I, can see religion to be limited only inside the personal mindspace, then no religion can become cause of any problem. Religion may cause personal problems, but not societal.

Just as it is in my mind I keep this question ``Is man, the best creation of God, or the God is the best imagination of man?``; and accepting that there cannot be one answer to it either. I never say that once if someone has believed it, that he or she cannot unbelieve it, or else I will kill you. Or that if you do not believe it, then you are ``not us``.

I am not sure you can see my perspective, let alone understand it.

Anil

OK #697/698 sound a bit more harsh than i intended.

but seriously - as an indian, you should be glad there patriotic pakistanis like behram are an asset not just to pakistan but to the entire world. it is the unpatriotic pakistanis, products of the arab worshipping jehadi culture, who are a liability for pakistan as well as for the rest of the world including india.

further to #697 and dont confuse your petty hatred with self-respect. you spiteful little men (hindu or ``muslim``) wouldnt recognize self-respect if it came up to you and pulled your ears.

ranjit #696 ``slavish loyalty to pakistan``?? do patriotic pakistanis offend you that much? you are proof that we pakistanis have not cornered the market on mullah-hates like echoboom.

Re:behram1#685

[...Yes, otherwise how else can you suggest that the vast Zoroastrian Persian empire was converted to Islamic without total annihilation of their values. O! I forgot they were all waiting in lines to get the stamp of approval in being followers of the Arab world?.......]

Behram, take a clue from your own slavish loyalty to Pakistan and your denigration of non-muslims in the worst possible language. Zoroastrians did not fight and rolled over in the face of muslim invasions. A handful escaped to India while the rest converted to survive the onslaugh. Yet in spite of that history, you have no resentment of Islam and prefer to be a chamcha to Pakistanis and attack Indians. Your ancestors that converted had a similar mindset.

As compared to them look at the anger in muslims against crusaders and non-muslims who fought against them. Also, look at the anger in India against muslim invasions. The fact of the matter is that people who have a strong sense of self-respect and value their heritage, fight tooth and nail to preserve that. People who roll over basically do not value their heritage and are bound to lose it. Thats why Zoroastrians are now on the verge of extinction.

anil #691 you say that no religion - not even hinduism - is part of any solution.


This brings us to the next question - do you consider islam to be the only religion that in your view is a source of problems? or do you consider all religions - i.e. including not just islam but also hinduism, christianity, judaism to be a source of problems as well?

PS: the above is a trick question, btw. since whatever answer you give, i have you trapped in a fishing net of your own creation!! :-)

Zeemax:

You won`t get anything positive about muslims from the ones who sold their souls to the
angraiz. After all where would they be but for the goraa-saab. It is the anglo-infested education which produces only Money-earners & CEOs like shaukat aziz & musharraf.
Never expect anything learned from such scum.

Just take a look at the sentence I`ve quoted in 688 which is from interact #686. Isn`t it a howl?

Here, for you,I have written a brief account of the Sassanid defeat. This has been culled & gathered from different non-muslim sources....in fact the defeat of the Persians by Muslims is so ridiciculous [ No general was willing to be CinC when they heard about muslim army coming; it was virtually a walk-over. The only thing bad Saad-bin-abi Vaqas did, not believing that there will be a surrender so swift , that they suspected some trick & chased the royalty unnecessarily . Saad was afterwardssent to China as an ambassador where he built the first mosque. His tomb & mosque are still there...and well looked after by the Chinese.Islamic ConquestAbu Bakr defeated the Byzantine army at Damascus in 635 and then began his conquest of Iran. In 637 the Arab forces occupied the Sassanid capital of Ctesiphon (which they renamed Madain), and in 641-42 they defeated the Sassanid army at Nahavand. After that, Iran lay open to the invaders. The Islamic conquest was aided by the material and social bankruptcy of the Sassanids; the native populations had little to lose by cooperating with the conquering power. Moreover, the Muslims offered relative religious tolerance and fair treatment to populations that accepted Islamic rule without resistance. It was not until around 650, however, that resistance in Iran was quelled. Conversion to Islam, which offered certain advantages, was fairly rapid among the urban population but slower among the peasantry and the dihqans [farmers]. The majority of Iranians did not become Muslim until the ninth century.


Although the conquerors, especially the Umayyads (the Muslim rulers who succeeded Mohammad from 661-750), tended to stress the primacy of Arabs among Muslims, the Iranians were gradually integrated into the new community. The Muslim conquerors adopted the Sassanid coinage system and many Sassanid administrative practices, including the office of vizier, or minister, and the divan, a bureau or register for controlling state revenue and expenditure that became a characteristic of administration throughout Muslim lands. Later caliphs adopted Iranian court ceremonial practices and the trappings of Sassanid monarchy. Men of Iranian origin served as administrators after the conquest, and Iranians contributed significantly to all branches of Islamic learning, including philology, literature, history, geography, jurisprudence, philosophy, medicine, and the sciences.


The Arabs were in control, however. The new state religion, Islam, imposed its own system of beliefs, laws, and social mores. In regions that submitted peacefully to Muslim rule, landowners kept their land. But crown land, land abandoned by fleeing owners, and land taken by conquest passed into the hands of the new state. This included the rich lands of the Sawad, a rich, alluvial plain in central and southern Iraq. Arabic became the official language of the court in 696, although Persian continued to be widely used as the spoken language. The shuubiyya literary controversy of the ninth through the eleventh centuries, in which Arabs and Iranians each lauded their own and denigrated the other`s cultural traits, suggests the survival of a certain sense of distinct Iranian identity. In the ninth century, the emergence of more purely Iranian ruling dynasties witnessed the revival of the Persian language, enriched by Arabic loanwords and using the Arabic script, and of Persian literature.

#692 by behram1

C`mon Behram ... hey let`s not argue about history because I have facts and you don`t. You rely upon rants and conjectures and I give you undisputed historical facts and you begin to run for cover. Such as you say ``winners write history``, how much of Islamic history was written by Persian Muslims themselves during Abbasids? ``Arab tribes, and they had no land per se``. sure they were bedouins but they were Arabs and the land belonged to the conquering Persian Empire right? So what does that prove? Persian imperialism while you`re blaming Arab imperialism? No other religion has flourished so much in such a short span of 80 years. Yeah right ... and it is still prospering after 1400 years .. so? No sword now is there? ...Yazdegard III...Thank God for Ali, who intervene and married these youngsters to his sons Hassan and Hussain. This account has been long dismissed and even the Shias now do not believe anyone named Shehr Bano ever existed.

But having said the above, do take into account that my best friend in school was Rustam Sanjana and I`ve visited the Aatish Ghar many times. So I respect Zoroasters being the very first mono-deity thinkers though I have a problem with their clannishness.

Cheers!

Re: # 690 by zeemax on October 8, 2006 9:53am PT

Dear Zeemax:

You want hard facts about the ruthlessness of Muslim conquerors of Zoroastrian Persians which I have none. As you very well know, as always, winners write history. It becomes illogical for the Persian Dynasty in its zennith to attack the Arabs. As you very well know their was no Arab Dynasty in those days. There were Arab tribes, and they had no land per se. Most of that land belonged to the Persians or sometimes to the Romans.

Actually, it was your assertion that Islam was not spread through force that become totally illogical. No other religion has flourished so much in such a short span of 80 years.

I want to make you aware that Taliban is a terrorist group, and are opium dealers.

{I think what you`re getting at is that the Arabs want to bring back their 7th century empire to the exclusion and subjugation of all other kinds of Muslims. That`s a startling observation and one I`ve never heard before.}

That should not be startling at all. Just look at some of the jihadi posts on this chowk, and those who want to impose Sharia Laws on the dar-ul-haram. Trust me I am not at all interested in learning Arabic lingo, or the Arabic mannersim of jazaak-ullah, fitrat-ullah, subhanullah, bus-kar-allah, etc.

{As for how the Arab/Persian conflict began, you must remember that the first battles were not even fought on Persian soil but on Arab soil i.e. Iraq with Persian attempts to retake the Arab areas captured by Muslims after Persians lost these to the Byzantines, which the Persians did win back in Battle Of The Bridge in 634 AD and were sitting on the fringes of Arabian Peninsula.}

What Arab soil? They were bedouins, and had no territory per se. Mesopotamia was always considered to be domain of Persian rulers. No wonder the sharia loving muslims want to get the whole world.

{Even the decisive victory of Muslims was at Qadissiyah in Iraq and nowhere near Persia. So what `tax money and all the Persian wealth` was Umar`s motive? }

So, in your opinion, where was Persia? Did Saad-bin-wakaas and his troops not go after the family of Yazdegard III all the way close to Alborz mountains? Did the conquering Arabs not want to sell Kings daughters as slaves. Thank God for Ali, who intervene and married these youngsters to his sons Hassan and Hussain.

{Persia itself and Egypt later fell to Muslims as a natural consequence of the defeat of the Sassanid Persian Empire right on Arab lands, and not by Muslim invasions on Persia. }

How can that be possible? How can you make this rubbish statement? Are you suggesting, as a natural consequences of the brutality of the conquering Arabs?

{I put to strict proof of this. Surely an event like that must be recorded somewhere. No conjectures of your own please as to how entire Persia was converted. }

Ask a Jew to provide records of their persecution. They are still over 20 million of Jews left, and then you are ask a Zoroastrian to provide you with a record of Muslim brutality.

Here you go with the spin. Most rulers of the muslim world were killed by their own.
{But are you suggesting the slave was forcibly converted? That would be ludicrous because the dispute was about Umar`s judgement re the slave`s wages and not conversion.}

I was not making that argument, and since you brought this up, why have slaves to begin with? Did the Prophet not free Bilal the slave? So why the rulers of Islamic society still practicing slavery?


{give them regular well-equipped matching armies and they`ll fight pitched battles like your Sassanids and won`t have to resort to Guerrilla warfare.}

O! What was given to those who won the world after winning the Zoroastrian Persia?

{Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi?

I`m not Arbi. That`s for sure. As for Ajmi, I`ll need to ask my Dad :-) }

I always knew that and thank God for that. Now all you have to do is straighten yourself up and follow your Prophets admonitions against looking down on the Ajamis, including yours truly.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 682

Tahmad Sahib:

``I think all you and anil and arjun are doing is trying to cook your ``chhalli`` on someone else`s fire. But rest assured - the world isnt looking towards hinduism as a solution to anything either.``

Allow me to correct, the world is not looking toward religions any longer for any solution. The religions place outside one`s mind space is being cut-off, be it Islam, Hindu, Christianity or whatever.

You are wrong about my position, I do not know about others.

Anil

#685 by behram1

Dear Behram,

Your arguments are going all over the place and you`re not focusing on any central thesis that you want to assert. It started with Taliban, then you went into this Arbi/Ajmi thing, then you claim persecution and holocaust of Zoroastrians, then you argue quite needlessly that Persians were better fighters than Arabs, and Turks were the best of them all, then you flood your post with conjectures and factual inaccuraciesrelating to ALL of the above without quoting any hard facts.

Hey, what exactly is it what you want to argue?

I think what you`re getting at is that the Arabs want to bring back their 7th century empire to the exclusion and subjugation of all other kinds of Muslims. That`s a startling observation and one I`ve never heard before. Anyway, let`s continue for a bit:

...what type of terror attacks would a rich Zoroastrian Persian empire conduct on the province of bedounistan? And why? What could they possibly gain? .... the ruling elite wanted to get tax money and all the Persian wealth ..... after that message was rejected by King Anoushirwan Adil who killed the messenger from the Prophet himself.

I thought the prophet`s letter was to Khosrau II and not to Anoushirwan Adil whose reign had ended in 579 AD i.e. much before prophethood, and no messengers were killed but Khosrau II had merely torn up the letter. But I guess this an honest error.

As for how the Arab/Persian conflict began, you must remember that the first battles were not even fought on Persian soil but on Arab soil i.e. Iraq with Persian attempts to retake the Arab areas captured by Muslims after Persians lost these to the Byzantines, which the Persians did win back in Battle Of The Bridge in 634 AD and were sitting on the fringes of Arabian Peninsula. Even the decisive victory of Muslims was at Qadissiyah in Iraq and nowhere near Persia. So what `tax money and all the Persian wealth` was Umar`s motive?

Persia itself and Egypt later fell to Muslims as a natural consequence of the defeat of the Sassanid Persian Empire right on Arab lands, and not by Muslim invasions on Persia.

...was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians? Yes....otherwise how else....etc

I put to strict proof of this. Surely an event like that must be recorded somewhere. No conjectures of your own please as to how entire Persia was converted.

Was Umar not killed by a recently converted Persian carpenter?

Indeed. And there can be no bigger proof of Umar Bin Khattab`s not being an imperial emperor that an ordinary slave dissatisfied with his judgement was able to access and assassinate the Great Umar right on the street with no security around the Caliph. But are you suggesting the slave was forcibly converted? That would be ludicrous because the dispute was about Umar`s judgement re the slave`s wages and not conversion.

If there is no Arabs in this fold, then why are they fighting like cowards? Where is the true Persian amongst them?

As I`ve said many times, give them regular well-equipped matching armies and they`ll fight pitched battles like your Sassanids and won`t have to resort to Guerrilla warfare.

``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds``

I`m sure this would have been in Khusro IIs mind, the son of Nosherwan-e-Adil, when he killed his benefactor and father-in-law Rome`s older King, who had given him refuge when he had to flee from his country and who had kept him like a son and even given his daughter`s hand in marriage to him, over a dispute on his appointee Phocas, and then ordered his army to fight the Romans, the Persians` allies.

Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi?

I`m not Arbi. That`s for sure. As for Ajmi, I`ll need to ask my Dad :-)

Cheers!

Here`s yet another example of Hindu/Zionist/Christian conspiracy to hold Muslims down:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/5407530.stm

An extract:


[Bangladesh running on empty
By Roland Buerk
BBC News, Bangladesh



The Bangladesh government is trying to find a solution to the country`s electricity problems, but, so far, without success.


Mirpur has been worst hit by protests over the power shortages
It was the blackout during evening prayers that was the final straw, said the residents of Mirpur in the north of the capital.

After a day of Ramadan fasting, nothing to drink, no food and no smoking, they had gathered in the mosques where they would have to stand for an hour and a half of ritual.

The only relief from the wet heat was the fans overhead.

And when they stuttered to a halt, grumbling resentment about the daily hours of power cuts turned to rage.

Crowds gathered in the streets.

They smashed and burned the local electricity substations.

Control rooms of the power distribution company were attacked, the metal panels kicked to pieces, the dials and switches broken. And when the police arrived some of their vehicles were destroyed too. ]


Now why would this happen in an Islamic country?

Wait! I know! They do not have ENOUGH Islam.

Some MORE Islam, and things would be hunky-dory.



Hint: Bangladesh does not have any appreciable petroleum deposits

from 686
How true!
Haaa haaa Haaa.
No Freudian slip; No typo--its their education stupid.

lets enjoy it again
beraham1 @686 says:

``He, a physician, abiding by the Hypocratic Oath he had sworn, dispensed the quantity of glucose his conscience permitted.``

Truer ``words`` were never spoken! this is the skill in english-language which is not entirely unexpected from the ones from Ba Ba Blacksheep or Totaa-mainaa school system. Even becoming amreekan cannot undo the urge-to-be-enslaved genes acquired at mama parsi.

and their claim ito fame is english in goraa-accent!

It is said that even if one washes it with the best soap & douse it with best perfume, the turd will still be not be rendered Paak.

Re: # 684

``.. You all need more proof of the hypocritical/dimwit/illogical nature of these misleaders and appeasers of the West? Why is he acting in this irrational manner, well his religion, his worship revolves around the white man, his ``quran`` is the ``Anglo Saxon Ethos``, and his messenger is whoever happens to the ruler in the USA. This is what his ``Islam`` is about, he is a munafiq and a mushriq, an idolator who unconditionally worships tyrants and barbarians just because they have wealth and they are white. This is the sum total of his knowledge. He is a dispicable ba stard, an enemy of the poor, and a backstabber of the Muslims. Know his kind well- insult his masters and see how fast his feigned politeness goes down the drain. Have no doubt about it, Allah knows well how to deal with his kind, they are the worst of creation, as defined in the Quran, worse than the worst Hindu Muslim haters, recognize this mindset.........``

You have just proved every one that you are really a two-taka mullah.......this is the only conclusive proof you could give so far on the chowk!!

p.s- How come Asadi could post the ``Basstard`` word without getting filtered by the chowk filter? Does he have some special administrative rights??. I could not get his original quote though the filter. How could he post that world at all , I wonder???

And Zeemax:

Besides getting free toilet papers from the British Raj, here is one way of how Parsees serve their country:

http://dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

``What history does not record is that the British surgeon general, responsible for keeping Gandhi alive when he indulged in his numerous ‘fasts’, had a secret weapon, a brother doctor, a member of the distinguished Indian Medical Service, Colonel Nariman Jamshedjee Sohrabjee Faredoonjee Mehta. Each time the Mahatma embarked on a ‘fast’ he would be held, ‘protected’ in the Aga Khan’s palace at Poona, or at some other palatial location. Colonel Mehta would be posted to the fasting site and instructed to “ensure that the old geezer does not die.”

He, a physician, abiding by the Hypocratic Oath he had sworn, dispensed the quantity of glucose his conscience permitted.``

And how does a jihadi muslim immigrant in the west serve their country? eh!

Re: # 674 by zeemax on October 7, 2006 9:53pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

Thank you for an enlightening response, and for acknowledging most behavior of the conquering Arabs, although you did not consider the war with Zoroastrian Persia as unjust and unfair. You called it a pre-emption. You have taken the same logic (of G.W.) which I agree when it comes to the present day terror attacks.

But, let us remain with the conquering Arabs for a while. I have always wondered what type of terror attacks would a rich Zoroastrian Persian empire conduct on the province of bedounistan? And why? What could they possibly gain?

{I suspect it was more for the same doctrine of `pre-emption` rather than spreading of Islam by force and persecution of the Zoroastrians.}

Well, Islam was just a tool of enforcement in those days, and the ruling elite wanted to get tax money and all the Persian wealth.

{After Abu Bakr had consolidated the Arabian peninsula, Umar had to remove threats at all borders to secure the same. }

And was that also the reason to remove threats from the horn of Africa? But, why would a rich Eygyptian domain be of any threat to the people of bedounistan? After all these rich people were Prophets traders were they not?

Zeemax, why do you have this hocus pocus theory about those rulers of Arabia?

{After all, Umar/Saad bin Abi Waqas were military generals and not mystics. However, was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians?}

Yes, otherwise how else can you suggest that the vast Zoroastrian Persian empire was converted to Islamic without total annihilation of their values. O! I forgot they were all waiting in lines to get the stamp of approval in being followers of the Arab world? How is it all logical? If there was not physical violence then why so many rich Zoroastrians had to flee to the shelters in Sanjan, India.

{When did Muslims `wreak so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul` in your words? }

As soon as you convert somebody that is exactly when havoc is wreaked on some-one`s soul. Would you not consider this of converting others into your fold as such a behavior?

{Certainly, there were mass conversions mainly due to the emergence of the vital and unprecedentedly potent force of Islam, and none by the sword, though partly the imposition of Jizya would have accounted for some. }

O! yeah. So Saad-bin-Waqaas was sent, just to deliver the message even after that message was rejected by King Anoushirwan Adil who killed the messenger from the Prophet himself. Under what divinity right did Umar went ahead and conducted war with the Persians? Was Umar not killed by a recently converted Persian carpenter?


{And what happened where they indeed were? Algeria and recently the Palestinian territories? Fair and free elections in the Muslim world are inimical to the interests of G7-10.}

Indeed, we must not allow thugs and terrorists to cloak themselves in the guise of democracy and then create mayhem on the enlightened world. Just look at those in NWFP and Baluchistan of Pakistan. Pakistan`s Musharraf by tying the hands of the liberal forces in Pakistan allowed the bearded ones to be the ruling class.

{..... Pakistan handed over to a military dictator for 11 years who spared no effort in tearing apart the fabric of the entire Pak society and fighting proxy wars. }

Indeed, and that is exactly where the indoctrination of Deobandi/Wahabbi philosophy penetrated to moderate texture of the Pakistani muslims.

Zeemax, if innocent people is killed in the cafeteria, and if your next to kin gets killed then it is terrorism. By and large Jihadi muslims are killing women and children to bring their brand of Islam, and that is terrorism. When the taliban forces hide and cannot fight like a true soldier with the force of enlightenment then that is terrorism. If there is no Arabs in this fold, then why are they fighting like cowards? Where is the true Persian amongst them?

{These deobandi/wahabi etc noises have all been invented by the media think tanks in the US to divide the so-called moderates from the extremists. I neither understand these nor do these make any kind of sense to me at all.}

Well, then maybe you should start understanding this new technology of the terror world of the Islamic forces. They generate new names by the dozens, and instantly, like the one I generated about Abu-Musab-Al-virbrating-mad-mullah-o-crat-al-masadi. Now, isn`t that just a fascinating title for the uninitiated ears.

{I don`t know whether I am wahabi or deobandi or whatever; but what I do know is that Jihad is a basic tenet of Islam to resist occupation & oppression, in any form and with any means; violent or non-violent; and that`s what I support. }

First of all it was the muslims who for whatever reasons started their ridiculous philosophy of yesteryears of fight and win. Those days are long gone, and the Jihadi elements must understand this. Heck, the best of your fighters were the Turks, hardly an Arab. And the Persians, who were constantly at war since before Prophet Zarathushtra`s time.

But, those two ethnic groups would fight like a man, unlike these cowards who hide behind women and children.

{C`mon now don`t give me a runaround. If your community is doing well under hindu raj, or Muslim Raj in Pak, or gora raj ... for some people that is good enough and gets you a month`s supply of toilet rolls. }

No, Zeemax, I have never been known to give anybody a run around. Unlike your teachings of ``taquyya`` I was taught ``Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds``. I am not in the business of converting others into my belief.

Finally, Zeemax, you chose not to answer the main question: Do you consider yourself as Ajami or Arabi? You must have an answer because it was your Prophet who had divided that world into Ajam and Arab.

Respectfully submitted,

tahmed writes <<< hamidm: what i dont understand is why you are so fascinated by these lowlife like echoboom and masadi. you are a talented writer, and i have seen a number of posters on chowk say in past years they come here just to read your posts >>

Once again boys and girls, note this post by this worshipper of the West that is fast in retreat, defeated and ruined. He says 1)lowlife 2) two-taka 3)mullah hates, this in response to class stratification statistics in the USA that show extreme inequality- and this is his response and then he cries that others use insults against him. You all need more proof of the hypocritical/dimwit/illogical nature of these misleaders and appeasers of the West? Why is he acting in this irrational manner, well his religion, his worship revolves around the white man, his ``quran`` is the ``Anglo Saxon Ethos``, and his messenger is whoever happens to the ruler in the USA. This is what his ``Islam`` is about, he is a munafiq and a mushriq, an idolator who unconditionally worships tyrants and barbarians just because they have wealth and they are white. This is the sum total of his knowledge. He is a dispicable bastard, an enemy of the poor, and a backstabber of the Muslims. Know his kind well- insult his masters and see how fast his feigned politeness goes down the drain. Have no doubt about it, Allah knows well how to deal with his kind, they are the worst of creation, as defined in the Quran, worse than the worst Hindu Muslim haters, recognize this mindset.

hamidm: what i dont understand is why you are so fascinated by these lowlife like echoboom and masadi. you are a talented writer, and i have seen a number of posters on chowk say in past years they come here just to read your posts.

dont get dragged down to their level - ths is all these two-taka mullah-hates can do after all. why not write something uplifting and positive instead??

#668 krishna: I think all you and anil and arjun are doing is trying to cook your ``chhalli`` on someone else`s fire. But rest assured - the world isnt looking towards hinduism as a solution to anything either.

Re: # 677


The so called glorious days of the theological states was based on a perverse economy of slave peddling, rent seeking from the subdued, rapes and plunders and peddling in loots in the name of religious wars.

No wonder those ages were rightly called the ``Dark Ages``...

For the WESTOXICATED scum....who delusionally are clutching at straws and hopinthat their massa wins against muslims.

That has NEVER happened, it shall NEVER happen.

The goraa has been crapping EVERYWHERE, and Allah has placed them there so that the world can witness in Living Color & in Real Time by their own media the bodybag lottery draw
........where the muslims are winning BIG time.

Bigger Jackpot draw-days are drawing near--INSHALLAH.

Let the liberaloons, secularoons, mirzaoons and other Oon Oons & isms drown
themselves in their merlots & harlots.

---

Asia
Five years hence, Taliban on path of resurgence

Posted by admin on 2006/10/8 6:18:58
Islamabad/New Delhi, Oct 8 (IANS) Five years after a determined US-led offensive ousted them from power in Kabul, the Taliban is on the path of resurgence in Afghanistan in total defiance of the Western military might.

The militia is virtually calling the shots in Afghanistan`s southern and eastern provinces, which is more than a half of the beleaguered nation, halting its reconstruction and development.

The writ of President Hamid Karzai remains confined to Kabul and major cities of the northern half despite the backing he has of the West. With more and more of their soldiers dying, Western countries are under pressure to quit Afghanistan.

The US, which appears keen to concentrate its efforts in Iraq, has begun the process of formally passing the military leadership to the NATO-led forces. The 31,000-strong force, mainly drawn from the US, Britain, Denmark, Holland and Canada, is to be augmented in the coming months to be able to spread their operations to areas where the Taliban is trying to dominate.

Five years after launching ``Operation Enduring Freedom`` and two years after the launch of more localised but equally fierce operations, the US-led forces have failed to bring peace to the troubled country.US President George W. Bush last month played host to Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and Karzai, who got locked in a public spat over the whereabouts of Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mullah Omar.The Taliban has displayed the capacity to grow while out of power and has incorporate new allies like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a one-time Afghan prime minister and a leading force against the anti-Soviet jehad in the 1980s.

The militia reportedly has a fighting force of 30,000-plus, a figure roughly the same when they ruled from Kabul, and enjoy massive firepower. Their manpower comes mainly from the seminaries run along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Even as a large number of Al Qaeda functionaries are supposed to have moved to Iraq, which emerged as the new battle ground since 2003, a substantial number, dubbed `renegades` and `remnants` by the Western media, have remained active in Afghanistan, thanks to the safe haven provided to them by their tribal `hosts` in Pakistan`s Waziristan province.

An agreement the Musharraf regime reached with the tribal chiefs after two years of military operations in the region has a nodding approval of the Bush administration but is viewed with great suspicion by Western strategic analysts because many of the Taliban fighters are known to use Waziristan for rest and medical treatment.

Using the mountainous terrain to the advantage, the Taliban and their supporters have targeted foreigners and locals engaged in development projects.

Their victims also include government officials and policemen appointed by the Karzai government besides schools and health centres, particularly those frequented by women. And though they too have suffered many deaths, the Taliban has vowed to fight on.

Their role in the manifold increase in the production of narcotics as a source of drug money for arms remains a matter of intense debate.

On the eve of the fifth anniversary of the US-led attack that led to its ouster from power, the Taliban asked all foreign forces to quit the country if they wanted to end the fighting.

Taliban spokesperson Abdul Hye Mutmain said the Taliban had no conflict with anyone outside Afghanistan.

``The foreigners attacked Afghanistan and we are using our right to defend our homeland. The Taliban resistance has become stronger while the attack gave nothing to the US and its allies except more bodies,`` he argued in an interview with the Afghan Islamic Press (AIP), quoted widely in the Pakistani media.

He also ruled out the possibility of Taliban holding talks with the Afghan government or joining the regime led by President Karzai. --By Mahendra Ved

Re: # 677

Massaddi Mian:

Good luck.

Anil

Let me correct myself when I write

<<< No system that has produced the kind of inequality that this one has world-wide can be hinted as being better than any system, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. >>>

I would like to exclude hindu from the above since just like the US, the Hindu system would also be a caste society, and thus cannot be said to be better than the US system but is quite similar. I stand corrected

<<< Hamidm sahib has more patience than I have, Massaddi Mian.

Anil >>>

Very good, make a quick exit, your words reveal your point of view quite clearly. No system that has produced the kind of inequality that this one has world-wide can be hinted as being better than any system, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever.

What was unseen by many was that this system of predatory capitalism lost out long time back, and admitted its defeat by incorporating principles of socialism desguised as the ``new deal`` in order to rescue itself. That was a clear admittance of its defeat, long before the Soviet Union went under, now it relies on foreign wars to keep itself going. Such a system is beyond pathetic, barbarism desguised as ``civilization``.

Re: # 672

``the Quran yet you make claims about what Islam is as if you are an expert...``

What are my claims about Islam?

You seem to be reading challenged too.... If you extensive your word about description of your reading and knowledge of the U.S. You probably delusions of grandeur as well.


For your benefit I quote what I wrote to you:

``You are indeed pointing toward a reality. Yes, you can call this reality a systemic disease or a problem. Staying stuck, or crying about it through exaggeration is not going to help.

Every economic system - including Islamic system if there is any - has it, and recognize it. Why else there will be Zakat? You call it systemic - implyng problem, I call it part of a system.

A system that provides outward and upward mobility is a better system. Hamidm is part of the solution in such a system. You should also become part of the solution.

I challenge you to point any system be from Allah, God, Bhagwan, or imperfect humans that does not have what you call systemic problem, or I call as a part of the system. Zakat hardly provides outward and upward mobility. Chopping of hands and limbs is hardly a justice to allow reforming or chance to move out and up. I may not have studied Koran - tried once gave up - but I have studied Zakat and Islamic banking. Neither provide what I call as outward and upward mobility from the corner of the system with sytemic problem per you, or that corner in the system. Soviets failed, Chinese failed. Islam as an economic system failed... yes... I just said it.... You simply put your brain power and focus in that this corner, and don`t give a chance to see the beauty of the complete system. ``

Hope you can comprehend the second time what is written above. Can I tell you, please listen to Hamidm, as I am a non-muslim whom you will not listen, otherwise your knowledge of social systems is confused, and economic system is non-existant.

If your answer can only include ``Ad Hominem`` (you do love this phrase, don`t you) use Islamic twist or bigot etc, then I only say please ignore what I have written. You and I have nothing in common to talk or discuss.

Hamidm sahib has more patience than I have, Massaddi Mian.

Anil

Re Afghanistan, this may be relevant ... transplanted from UP:

Well, Sadna, this woman is Sonali Kolhatkar who has lived and travelled extensively inside Afghanistan right up to the Northern borders, and has co-authored a book about it titled ``Bleeding Afghanistan: Washington, Warlords and the Propaganda of Silence``. Did you watch the interview video? Do it if you haven`t and you`ll see her sincerity. She has no axes on the grind and I find that admirable.

When she says ``Islamic Fundamentalism`` instead of ``Taliban`` to which you object, she`s right on the dot because there is only a very subtle difference or a thin line between the two in the context of the general Afghan population. Let`s put it this way ... if an Afghan is forced to become a hardliner, he automatically becomes a Taliban.

Have you ever heard of part-time Taliban? This is a new phenomenon amongst youth where they work in the fields during the day and become Taliban fighters by night. This is described in the interview as well and the authors term it as neo-Taliban.

For anyone to even think of defeating such a nation-wide tidal wave would at best be, foolhardy. Taliban must be engaged in dialogue and paid war reperations immediately, and brought back and restored in power to get Afghanistan back in world community, otherwise a lawless-narco state with the best war-hardened and skilled battle-machine in the entire world with an abundance of recruits from all over the world will become the nightmare of the entire western civilization.

Do mark my words.

#661 by behram1

Dear Behram,

......Yes, for the most part it is the Arbi/Ajmi thing in my thinking......

Okay so your beef is with the Muslim conquest of the Zoroastrian Persian empire. I suspect it was more for the same doctrine of `pre-emption` rather than spreading of Islam by force and persecution of the Zoroastrians. After Abu Bakr had consolidated the Arabian peninsula, Umar had to remove threats at all borders to secure the same. After all, Umar/Saad bin Abi Waqas were military generals and not mystics. However, was there a holocaust of the Zoroastrians? Or even the Byzantines?

When did Muslims `wreak so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul` in your words?

Certainly, there were mass conversions mainly due to the emergence of the vital and unprecedentedly potent force of Islam, and none by the sword, though partly the imposition of Jizya would have accounted for some.

....Where do we find open and fair election in the muslim world?....

And what happened where they indeed were? Algeria and recently the Palestinian territories? Fair and free elections in the Muslim world are inimical to the interests of G7-10.

It must be fresh in the memories of many interactors how dollars had flowed into Pakistan for the PNA movement against ZAB, and once he had been removed, the PNA too had been cast aside and Pakistan handed over to a military dictator for 11 years who spared no effort in tearing apart the fabric of the entire Pak society and fighting proxy wars.

So the world is right to call these fighters from the Islamic world as terrorists. Why were you complaining about the terrorists in Afghanistan in the first place?

If Paks fight in Chechnya it is Jihad. If Arabs fought in AF it was Jihad. The only terrorism was what Carlos the Jackal did, not any of the aforeasaid varieties.

In any event, there`re no Arabs fighting in AF now. It`s only the Pak Taliban and the Afghan Taliban from both sides of the border.

Was it not then the wishes and desires of the Deobandi brand of Islam as envisioned by Zia-ul-Haq to fire brand his society with the invasion from Saudi Wahabis?

These deobandi/wahabi etc noises have all been invented by the media think tanks in the US to divide the so-called moderates from the extremists. I neither understand these nor do these make any kind of sense to me at all. I don`t know whether I am wahabi or deobandi or whatever; but what I do know is that Jihad is a basic tenet of Islam to resist occupation & oppression, in any form and with any means; violent or non-violent; and that`s what I support.

Can we extend this logic to the Zoroastrian (ajami) Persians, as well?

You mean the resurgence logic? Of-course ... why not. I think Iran is at-least following the Persian logic still (as did the Shah) though not Zoroastrian for obvious reasons, but certainly why don`t you rally your community? Is it because becoming slaves and subjects of others is easier? That certainly appears to be the case to me. C`mon now don`t give me a runaround. If your comminity is doing well under hindu raj, or Muslim Raj in Pak, or gora raj ... for some people that is good enough and gets you a month`s supply of toilet rolls.

For Muslims though, it is not enough. There`s a vital difference in mindsets....whether Arbi or Ajmi or black Somalian or Ethiopian or Sudanese.

Your concluding four points are pure tush and poppycock. Do not require comment.

Cheers!

behram/rumsfeld <<< Coca-Cola recently opened a $25 million bottling plant in Kabul, and other large multinational companies are considering opportunities in Afghanistan. >>>

Amazing, isn`t it, the so-called government of Kabul cannot open its offices outside of Kabul but multinationals are popping up all over the place according to Rumsfeld. What is equally baffling is that the census bureau has been publishing the world data sheet every year since 2003 and we don`t see the effects of this increased health care and education in its numbers. Maybe the effects of them are ``hidden`` or were transported to Pakistan just like the Iraqi WMDs

Anil writes <<< Re: # 649 Massaddi Mian:

``....your bigotry against Islam aside,...``

If you can keep such comments and attacks out, you and I can discuss this subject. I have studied and actually tried to do something about this issue in New Delhi, without any color of religion. >>>

My comments are not just thrown out there. You claim you have never studied (neither read) the Quran yet you make claims about what Islam is as if you are an expert, and all those comments are negative- this tells me that it is bigotry that guides your claims- knowledge certainly does not. On the other hand when I comment on US society, I have done extensive study on it, I just don`t throw out stuff, as I have on the Quran, which in most cases goes against the traditional understanding. That is the difference between us in this issue, a difference of knowledge about the issues that are being discussed.

hamid writes <<< boy`s and girls, don`t listen to masadi, listen to me, if you want to live the american dream instead of living in a basement and eating government cheese >>>

By all means boys and girls, listen to hamid if you want to gamble your lives away, you have a greater chance of riches in this system by pulling yourself out of school and trying your luck at the lottery than you will ever have to reach the top through your hard work. That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female. Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse. Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/06/AR2006100601373.html

Afghanistan: Five Years Later

By Donald H. Rumsfeld
Saturday, October 7, 2006; Page A23

On Oct. 7, 2001, President Bush spoke from the Treaty Room of the White House to announce the beginning of Operation Enduring Freedom, a mission designed to disrupt and destroy al-Qaeda operations in Afghanistan and the regime that had harbored and supported Osama bin Laden`s terrorist network.

It was never going to be an easy mission. Afghanistan was among the world`s poorest nations, with little political or economic infrastructure. Nearly three decades of war, drought and a Soviet occupation by hundreds of thousands of troops had yielded a broken, lawless nation.

Yet from halfway around the world -- with but a few weeks` notice -- coalition forces were charged with securing a landlocked, mountainous country that history had dubbed the ``graveyard`` of great powers.

Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that military experts and columnists raised the specter of Vietnam and ``quagmires`` -- both before and during combat operations. They cited the forbidding terrain, brutal weather and the Soviet Union`s total failure.

Within weeks of our launching combat operations, however, the Taliban regime had been defeated, consigning yet another cruel regime to the dustbin of history. Coalition forces took control of Kabul, and since then the Afghan people have fashioned a new constitution and successfully held the first democratic presidential election in their long history.

Now, five years after the start of Operation Enduring Freedom, another signpost has been marked on Afghanistan`s long, difficult road to stability: NATO took control of security operations for the entire country on Thursday, as well as the 24 Provincial Reconstruction Teams that are strengthening infrastructure across the nation.

This is an unprecedented moment for the NATO alliance. In 2001 NATO forces were for the first time deployed beyond their traditional European borders. Today the number of troops in Afghanistan from nations besides the United States has reached more than 20,000 -- to add to the approximately 21,000 American troops serving there.

Not all the news about Afghanistan is encouraging. There is, for example, the legitimate worry that increased poppy production could be a destabilizing factor. And rising violence in southern Afghanistan is real.

President Hamid Karzai, speaking with President Bush recently at the White House, acknowledged the difficulties: ``Afghanistan is a country that is emerging out of so many years of war and destruction. . . . We lost almost two generations to the lack of education. . . . We know our problems. We have difficulties. But Afghanistan also knows where the problem is.``

The problem, he said, is poverty and extremism. Success requires a strong and capable Afghan government that can provide services and opportunities for all its people.

During the active combat or conventional phase of any war, there are clear signs of progress: battles won, key strategic points taken, enemy forces captured or killed. In the post-battle phase, however, the measure of progress is not as clear -- especially in a war such as the Global War on Terror, which relies so heavily on the development of civic institutions in places that have known little more than war and destitution.

And yet, for all of the challenges the Afghan people face, there are many promising indicators. Among them:

· Security: The Afghan National Army has grown to more than 30,000, with approximately 1,000 soldiers added each month. The Afghan National Police now number more than 46,000. Afghan forces were successful in providing security for the two national elections held since 2004.

· Economy: The size of Afghanistan`s economy has tripled in the past five years and is projected to increase another 20 percent next year. Between 2003 and 2004, government revenue increased 70 percent, to $300 million. Coca-Cola recently opened a $25 million bottling plant in Kabul, and other large multinational companies are considering opportunities in Afghanistan.

· Education: In the past five years, more than 42 million school textbooks have been printed and distributed, and some 50,000 Afghan teachers have been trained. Almost 600 schools have been built, and now more than 5 million children attend school, a 500 percent increase from 2001.

· Health care: In 2001 only 8 percent of Afghans had access to at least basic health care; at least 80 percent do today. Some 5 million Afghan children have been vaccinated.

· Infrastructure: Thousands of kilometers of roads have been built or improved since the Taliban fell. Since 2004, 25 provincial courthouses have been built and hundreds of judges trained.

Building a new nation is never a straight, steady climb upward. Today can sometimes look worse than yesterday -- or even two months ago. What matters is the overall trajectory: Where do things stand today when compared to what they were five years ago?

In Afghanistan, the trajectory is a hopeful and promising one.

The writer is secretary of defense.

Re: # 666 by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 3:24pm PT

Dear Hamid:

Did you realize that your post was numbered 666?

Your wish may just come true on this poor pigsqueek person who is spewing so much hate on all enlightened chowkies

{........ may you die of hunger and thirst, } okay this is probably bearable


{and may you have an oversexed afghan } which gender male or female. Ok, being a mullah type this pigsqueak can enjoy either one. Anyhow, you forgot to mention the gender in your wish.


{as your cell mate in gitmo and arjun as your room mate in hell .... ameen ... sum ameen}

Now this one is nastiest of them all. Why did you want that to happen to a person who will not grow up to complain that his mullah raped him as a child? eh!

And on another subject matter, you have not answered whether having deliberate masturbation during fast would make the fast null and void? Jay Leno was asking the audience, when was a masturbation unintentional?

Respectfully submitted,

#654 by tahmed32

[But not in the same vein as you expressed yourself about the Quran. But rather in the same vein as, in your very next sentence, you say one should view religion: ``Religion according to me is a personal belief system, and therefore strictly private matter``. Which means respecting other people`s religious beliefs and not making gratuitous remarks about others` religions. ]


There is one BIG exception to this wonderful rule, of course.

IF, for example, someone ``believes`` in something like Naziism as a religion, or for example some religion where killing the ``disbelievers`` and putting punitive taxes on them is prescribed, amongst other things.

Other than this caveat (which is important for self-preservation), this rule of respecting other religions should hold good.

Quadiani2:66

It has taken this long time to figure out my hatred for those who spew venom aginst oir Nabi and against muslims.

As they say ``You ain`t seen nothi` yet``..You read the post, I am rewarded..thanks. They are always written with those who are westoxicated scum....and you like its cream rise to the top.

We will not rest unless your children have an equal opportunity to become your sprinkler boy`s servant in Pakistan.

Keep reading; you will get more opportunities to lose your Quadiani-facade of ``humour``.

Re: # 664

echoboom,

......... you are one hate-filled and hateful bastard !......... where did the father of you atom bum go when he needed medical care ?........ how many engineering colleges like ned did your mullahs build ?........ may you die of hunger and thirst, and may you have an oversexed afghan as your cell mate in gitmo and arjun as your room mate in hell .... ameen ... sum ameen

mullah echoboom: The Tatas, with 22billion $/yr in revenue, are India`s largets private sector employers. TCS is one of the world`s largets outsourcing companies. Ratan Tata is about to buy Corus for 10 billion $.

What do pakis, let alone paki parsees, have to match that....

How Liquor, women, providing accomodation, and spying for Imperialists
turned crocodiles, lizards, and geckos (otherwise known as PARSIS)into the ``elite`` of Bombay; Karachi.

One of their own writes, albeit with a hint of an adapter`s (read:traitor or: Islam-hater`s) ``pride``.
Read on! All of it--the story of crows with their peacock feathers--PLUCKED now.... Even the
Kalloos in the U.S have found pride & is fiercely independant.

These goraa-pleasers will stoop & bendover and do anything for a westoxicated lifestyle and comfort.

---

ANGLICISATION OF THE PARSIS

by Polly Noshir Chenoy
(Dr. Chenoy belongs to the Department of English, Osmania University,
Hyderabad.)

My mother`s contention is: ``British gayan ne` opre vadhare British thai
gayan`` (We have become more British after the British have left). This, she
attributes mostly to the fact that the Parsis; especially the younger
generation speak no other language except English and have no knowledge of
any Indian language.But what is annoying and also rash, is the fact, that
the Parsis feel superior to the other Indians on account of their mastery of
the English language and tend to look down on those who cannot speak the
language well. Whereas, it would help them immensely if they continued to
learn their adopted mother tongue, Gujarati, as well as the language of the
region in which they live. ...........

Rest here .........real juicy stuff
......... a rather long, but worth it, write-up about how those who eventually become vulture`s dinner themselves vulyured &co-operated with British to work against Hindoo-muslims , especially post-1857, and supplied women, liquor, and room&board to the British baboons & thus controlled the vice-businesses in India, Pakistan and Iran.

Another scavenger community of India-Pakistan...the others are Quadianis & Agha-Khanis

http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/angl33.html

Re: # 649

Re: # 649

Massaddi Mian:

``....your bigotry against Islam aside,...``

If you can keep such comments and attacks out, you and I can discuss this subject. I have studied and actually tried to do something about this issue in New Delhi, without any color of religion.

Also, Massaddi Mian your statement includes you also.... just change ``against`` to ``for``.

It is pathetic but true that simply changing conjunctions, one can recycle extremists propoganda to describe extremists from both sides?

Also, if calling me a bigot gives you peace please go ahead, and make your day.

Anil

Re: # 654

Tahmad Sahib:

This is getting beyond me.... I have never criticized Koran. I do not have the knowledge to do it. Please refrain from jumping into such conclusions.

And, when you critiqued Gita, you could not have seen me jumping up and down.

Your real issues are and should we with Massaddi Mian, he you think his alleged quotes are not from Koran.


Anil

Re: # 647 by zeemax on October 7, 2006 1:43am PT

Dear Zeemax:

On the onset, let me be clear with you about myself and my values. Yes, for the most part it is the Arbi/Ajmi thing in my thinking. Also, when the Prophet himself had directed not to harass the Ajami, then why did their followers wreeck so much havoc on those poor Ajami soul. Beside, if I may ask, where are you [as a Pakistani (or as a Pushtoon?)] coming from?

You are of the opinion that the rulers of the Islamic world are not out of touch with its citizens... {And no, at-least the governments are not out of touch but there`s little they can do given current global order, and yes the ruling classes do want peace & harmony}

Yet, Muslims have always suggested that the western leaders are different from it`s citizens. How can that be logical? When we constanltly parade the western leaders to its voters in the west. Where do we find open and fair election in the muslim world?

{ ... because it`s absence scares away their cherished FDI, but are unaware it can`t be achieved. } Of course, how could you invest in a partnership with a ``badmaash``?

{Right. On the other side of the coin a large number of Paks are currently fighting in Afghanistan and Chechnya just as they did in Bosnia. So it`s not only Arabs. However I see where you`re getting at .... Arab Domination? That`s ludicrous in view of the aforesaid. }

So the world is right to call these fighters from the Islamic world as terrorists. Why were you complaining about the terrorists in Afghanistan in the first place?

{There`s more to it than Faux TV. } Yes there is and that is why I do not waste my time on TV shows.

{Have you not followed my advice yet re CIA Jihad 101? Where did this flood pop up from? }

Was it not then the wishes and desires of the Deobandi brand of Islam as envisioned by Zia-ul-Haq to fire brand his society with the invasion from Saudi Wahabis?

{Aah .. now you`re clear about your contention re Arbi/Ajmi & Arab Domination stuff. But you may firther clarify as to `which` arabs wish to dominate. Saudis? Egyptians? Moroccans? Algerians? Sudanese? Lebanese? Jordanians? Syrians? What about the Somali who`re not not even arab? I ask this because all these are involved in global Jihad. }

You must tell me, an ajami, which Arab brand are we talking about? The best that I could do is to identify the most violent and the most virulent ones are the Wahabis. Are they not?

{But, first, you must tell me why would you know more (re Afghanistan)?

Several reasons beyond mere books. }

Is it possible for you to enlightened us with your wisdom on this roughness of your society?


{All the fuss about is re concentration and monopolization of not only wealth but also resources, both present and future, af all sorts in G7-10. } Granted, and mostly agreed with the reason, but can we justify the means of that your mind is justifying?

{If the western renaissance made use of the body of knowledge and resources mobilized by Umayyad Muslims to recover Europe from dark ages, why should the Muslims be restricted now from seeking its own renaissance using the body of knowledge and resources hogged by this `community`? }

Can we extend this logic to the Zoroastrian (ajami) Persians, as well? Or should we just stop at the thief`s and robbers of the Arab world of the 7th century, under Umar and Saad-bin-waakas?

No, Zeemax, you are totally wrong on several counts.

First, you do not know where to draw a line of your Islamic history and its glorious past, that only you are claiming, because, yes you have a population of 1.2 Billion people.

Second, you and your muslims are full of hatred because of your ``hasad`` (jealousy), and you know that your values are not suitable for the current world. Your society is totally irrelevant and incompetent to the world of science and reasoning.

Third, you believe in blaming others rather than yourself, and you have no self-introspection. You have lost the global economic slice, and yes the winners will keep the bounties of the war, just as the Islamic forces kept those from yesteryears.

Fourth, your society has lost the authenticity of fairness, of honesty, of authenticity, of human generosity, and all the many other virtues that a modern society wants and desires.

And finally, your historical cruelty against most of the indigenous people of the lands that you forcefully occupied is now coming back to haunt your ilk.

And this is what is bothering your wretched soul.

Respectfully submitted,

masadi
i don`t know much about us but discrimination is widespread inUK.

``Britain’s minority ethnic populations remained in the metropolitan areas because of expanding households after the birth of children, new migrants settling close to existing communities from the same ethnic group, and a reducing white population — either moving out or dying. Overall, the ethnic minority population in 2001 was 4.6 million, or 7 per cent of the total population. More than 41 million said that they were Christian, with the second biggest group being 8.5 million who claimed no faith. Muslims accounted for 1.5 million, of whom 60,000 were white British Muslims.
Ethnic minorities still faced higher levels of unemployment and social deprivation than their white counterparts. In both the 16-24 and 25-39 age groups, unemployment rates among British-born black, Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnic groups were more than twice as high as white Britons.
Unemployment was higher among Muslims than any other religious group and when they did find jobs they had the lowest proportion of workers in managerial and professional positions. Graduates from ethnic minorities, including those born in Britain, were more likely to be unemployed than white graduates.
Joy Dobbs, a divisional director for social and health analysis reporting at the ONS, said: “Black African Muslims have three times the unemployment rate of other Muslims and that’s a very significant difference. What’s interesting is that we know unemployment varies by things like age, by things like qualifications, by things like country of birth.
“And even if you take account of those things, there’s still a difference between the black African Muslim and others, so we have to conclude this is something to do with people’s ethnicity and religion.”








http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2391321.html

#658 H2

[because they think they have done their share of picking and the man owes them .......... ]

For a moment I thought you were talking about that Kashmiri “damsel” in distress and the Pakistani “knight” in shining armor with those racing green hormones.

But perhaps you do not meet the age profile requirements, mian!

Re: # 656

romair,

........ there is nothing strange about it !.......... you will also never see an african american picking fruit like the mexicans - they would rather wait for the welfare check .......... why? .... because they think they have done their share of picking and the man owes them ..........

......... i still think i know too many indian muslim IT types, but i will take your word for it since you are in the business .........

#654

[I did what you claim you stand for (i.e. respecting others religions), not what you actually demonstrate yourself to stand for when you make gratuitous remarks about the Quran. ]

Aaah, that wicked, wicked arrow of the Bhishma!

hamidm/anil: ``..... there are lots of indian muslim IT guys - i personally know at least a dozen or more ........ asim premji is one too, you know``

i believe you are referring to azim, not asim.......who, i believe, is a good friend of anil`s by the way.......no doubt, azim premji is an indian muslim heading a bohemeth coroporation........however, if one looks at it that way, then they president of the second largest IT company in the world, oracle, is a black guy named charles phillips.......and a young black guy, at that......he came from morgan stanley......the head of rogers - a gigantic telecom - in canada is now an indian muslim also........and i am sure there is some pakistani female, somewhere, who is the head of an IT company.....i know one who is a vc...........i would compare azim premji, charles phillips etc. to benazir bhutto.......in the sense that pakistan has had a female pm, but still very few women in politics.........

but you are correct, in terms of african-americans, there are literally none......zero......i have never had an african american professor......i taught for a few years, part time......and never had an african american student in IT........i have worked with one african-american employee, who was also in some support dept. and not in engineering......

these kind of wierd demographics are kind of odd.......one doesn`t notice them at first.......and then slowly they become apparent.......pakistani women aren`t in many professions to begin with, so that wasn`t as odd.........but barely seeing any indian muslims and african americans was strange.......

i have worked with around two pakistani women (both i hired, so i don`t know if that counts).......three or four or so indian muslims........and one african american guy.........on the other hand, i have worked with hundreds of indian hindus (and quite a few sikhs, considering their population ratio).......a large number of which were indian hindu women.....a pretty good amount of pakistani muslims.........and iranis (specially in canada)......and some black guys, all of whom were first generation immigrants from nigeria, jamaica etc...........

strange!!

Re: # 642

roamir,

..... there are lots of indian muslim IT guys - i personally know at least a dozen or more ........ asim premji is one too, you know ........ but have you ever wondered why you have never met an african american programmer when there was such a huge demand for them that they were even hiring heeng-eating macacas ? .. think

......... a sprinker guy is one who installs and fixes your sprinkler system ........ it is dirty and tough manual work, not the kind of work desis would normally do ........... my sprinkler guy happens to be a paki from a remote village in the potohar - unlike masadi he does not get government cheese and his kids prove the reality of the american dream .......... amazing man !

anil #634 ``Regarding Gita - be my guest ... and express yourself. ``

I already have.

But not in the same vein as you expressed yourself about the Quran. But rather in the same vein as, in your very next sentence, you say one should view religion: ``Religion according to me is a personal belief system, and therefore strictly private matter``. Which means respecting other people`s religious beliefs and not making gratuitous remarks about others` religions.

In other words, I did what you claim you stand for (i.e. respecting others religions), not what you actually demonstrate yourself to