Musharraf Spilling the Beans—Why Now?

arjun2 writes <<< So the rulers of the arab states are keeping their subjects down..ok...why is it then that we never hear of brit-pakis or assorted ummah jihadi homies planning a suicide bombing to overthrow these regimes? >>>

As the recent US NIE suggested, the US has a major part to play in this `jihadi` cat and mouse game. Your question assumes that most among the Muslims are jihadis and that those jihadis have as their plan the development/education/health etc of the Muslim. Both assumptions are BS and reflect your prejudice, a variant form of which is shared by the jihadis who you are writing against. You are not different, you`re made of the same mold of illiteracy, prejudice and bigotry.

#577 by masadi on October 5, 2006 7:32am PT

So the rulers of the arab states are keeping their subjects down..ok...why is it then that we never hear of brit-pakis or assorted ummah jihadi homies planning a suicide bombing to overthrow these regimes? Why is Islamist outrage directed against non-muslims?

When was the last time you saw a muslim demonstration against the saudi rulers like those you have against the israeli occupation and other ummah causes?

GT in #561 <<< There is nothing wrong or right about Muslims. Everything has to do with hard work, dedication and belief. Though I disagree with you almost completely in almost everything that you say, I think you are going in the right direction. Keep it up and try to underplay your emotions a bit. >>>

Hard work, dedication and belief operate within the boundaries of socio-economic circumstance. You can work your butt off, have all good intentions but if you are not given the tools to succeed, the ability to have access to life, health and education and equal opportunity regardless of race, you wont amount to anything.

Stating that you disagree with me completely on everything is quite an absurd comment since you don`t qualify it with any example or reason, it was thus totally unnecessary in your post except as fodder for the damn fools that argue with me baselessly like hamids and okhlas.

<<< And infant mortality and primary education are a problem for the OIL RICH ARABS?
>>>>

If the OIL RICH ARABS, whose countries are not rich but they are, and who form a small percent of Muslim populations, were to invest in education instead of buying US arms and imitating its commercialized lifestyle, maybe they would produce more scientists that do grounbreaking research. You just need to look at their level of illiteracy, especially among the women to note that what I was saying applies equally to them.

GT writes <<< You do not have to justify why Muslims or Hindus or Parsis or Buddhists are not winning the Nobel Prize. The Nobel is neither the beginning nor the end of science. Some scientists even laugh at it. Recall that recently Perelman refused the Nobel for mathematics >>>

True, I went along with what he presented as standard for the sake of argument, Hamid was presenting that as a standard of ``white`` superiority and I had merely pointed him to think in the direction of where the prepondrance of white scientists compared to those from the developing world or the Muslim world is because of ``social circumstance``- things like lack of education and health, and not superior white genes- which is the only alternative scientifically disproven argument.

It is very easy to get a profile of the institutions with the most Nobel Prize winners and those are all elite insititutions which few if any ``ghetto dwellers`` get to attend. And certainly the potential pool of scientists that get a decent primary education compared to those in the developing world is much larger. The cause of such disparity we can link with underdevelopment, which we can link to the long history of colonization.

Most Nobel Prize by University from 1901 - 2002

1. Harvard University (MA, USA) - 28
2. University of Cambridge (UK) - 23
3. Max-Planck-Gesellschaft Munich (Germany) - 18
4. Stanford University (CA, USA) - 17
University of London (UK) - 17
6. Mass. Institute of Techology (MA, USA) - 15
University of Chicago (IL, USA) - 15
8. Cal. Institute of Technology (CA, USA) - 14
UC Berkeley (CA, USA) - 14
10. Columbia University (NY, USA) - 12
11. Princeton University (NJ, USA) - 11


Hamid cannot think beyond the sushi restaurant and so he totally perverts my argument saying:

<<
if this is not jihadi logic, what is ?

there are no muslim noble prize winners because all of them were lost to infant mortality and lack of primary education and the few that made it fell victim to race and religious prejudice !!!!! >>>

This is not what I had written, I had said

<<< Maybe if you answer the question, how many potential scientists are lost to infant mortality and lack of primary education in Muslim lands, and what the cause of those are, then you might begin to understand why the Muslims dont win prizes in this age. Add to that race and religious prejudice and you will also begin to understand why Muslim scientists of old don`t figure out in current day text books that present an amnesiac history of the sciences. To downplay the contributions of your opponents has been the hallmark of the West, unlike those Muslims I was talking about who went through a lot of trouble to spread the ideas of intellectuals that didn`t belong to their group >>>


Of course idiots when stumped will distort their opponent`s argument, invent strawmen assuming that the other readers cannot comprehend simple sentences.

Re: # 576

``Maybe if you answer the question, how many potential scientists are lost to infant mortality and lack of primary education in Muslim lands, and what the cause of those are, then you might begin to understand why the Muslims dont win prizes in this age.``

This man talks as if he is some Awliyah telling everyone about the ``sings`` of some secret conspiracy between the good and the evil.

When we ask him to state clearly with evidences linking all the events on HOW are the Christina West and the Jewish Lobbies responsible for the current mess that most Islamic States find themselves in you would find him throwing back mullah`s choicest abuses back at you!!!

#563 by okhla99 on October 4, 2006 10:57pm PT


2. Huge numbers of Indian army and Air Force ultimately managed to create a situation where NS had to go to US for end to hostilities.


the ``situation`` they created was taking back most of the mountains the pakis had occupied and cutting off supplies for the paki soldiers stranded on the remaining mountains..

Pray tell..If Pakiland was winning, wouldn`t most non-deluded people expect Vajpayee to go begging to CLinton, on the 4th of July no less, to save his rear?

Re:taikonaut#573

Sirjee, what is a taikonaut? Is that a Pakistani astronaut?

Maybe, as per masadi, infant mortality and lack of primary education has affected Pakistani astronauts and turned them into taikonauts.

#571 Harish Bhai! So you got some cools pics of Indians waving flag on top of some Gad-awful choti (peak). Every nation has to live with some fantasies. Pakistan may fantasize some chotis and you guys may fantasize some others.

Fantasies is the name of the game in poverty stricken BIMAROU land, and same is true here in Pakistan land.

Look at your country`s creation in Aug 15, 1947. You ``fight`` for independence from Goras (whites). Then you turn around and make the same Gora (and not a different Gora) as your supremo machismo leader aka Mounty the mounting batman. That`s not much of fight, and not much of independence. eh!

Namaste, and salaam.

hamidm: thanks for highlighting this masadism:

there are no muslim noble prize winners because all of them were lost to infant mortality and lack of primary education and the few that made it fell victim to race and religious prejudice !!!!!

talk about avoding reality like the plague!! and you are trying to rehabilitate this man. :-)

Can`t see a Paki macaca here...must have fled or fed to the vultures..

Indian forces after capturing point 4825



Indian forces atop Gun Hill

Boo hoo!!! Zeemacaca the Bhand will certainly weep when he reads this.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1450/MR1450.ch5.pdf#search=%22kargil%2Bwar%22

To the degree that Kargil turns out to be an example of a detour in what is otherwise LIC, the explanation for deterrence failure in this event is less complicated, though it does ride on a bewildering number of peculiar assumptions that informed Pakistani decisionmaking with respect to this event—for example, that the presence of Pakistani forces would not be detected, and that if detected, would have no political consequences; that the Indian response to the Pakistani fait accompli would be passive and quiescent; and that the Kargil war would have little real effect on India-Pakistan relations. The cumulative effect of such peculiar assumptions renews the concerns many observers have traditionally had about the character of Pakistani decisionmaking with respect to grand strategy and about the effects of that strategy on strategic stability in South Asia. Thus, while it is possible to conclude that Pakistan, having learned once again that favorable international intervention and on-demand war termination cannot be assured, is unlikely to initiate a future Kargillike operation, the uncertainty about whether Pakistan’s higher decisionmaking institutions—which, all admit, are relatively weak—can in fact internalize these lessons permanently and institutionally gives rise to legitimate fears that Islamabad (if it chooses to behave like the Bourbon monarchy that reputedly learned nothing and forgot nothing) might be tempted to replicate some facsimile of the Kargil operation in the future.

These fears are only exacerbated by the fact—underscored in this report— that Pakistan’s evaluation of the consequences of Kargil is still ambiguous. Had Pakistan concluded that the Kargil operation was an outright failure, the prospects of recurrence would have been minimal. However, Pakistan’s lessons learned are more complex. Even as the overall failure of the Kargil operation dominates the consciousness of many Pakistani stakeholders, several important constituencies still tend to rationalize Kargil, even if only as an afterthought, as some sort of a victory. These conceptions of victory—the brilliance of the tactical planning, the effectiveness of Pakistan’s operational performance, the conflict as progenitor of India’s political dialog with the Kashmiris—differ often as a result of where the constituency is located in Pakistan’s state-society structure, but the “residue” of such beliefs implies the possibility that Pakistan might be tempted to carry out Kargil-like operations in the future.

#568 by zeemacaca

Because if they ran out of coffins, it obviously means casualties were unexpectedly much higher than the logistical arrangements made ahead in this regard..

Just like Mushy turned the Kargil defeat into a victory, the Bhand Macaca sees the shortfall in coffins as some sort of a macaca victory. The poor Paki macacas didn`t even have coffins to be buried in, instead being left over for vultures to feast on.

Just like the mythical Paki major said the ``fact`` that he ``shot and killed dozens of Hindu soldiers`` (despite having to shamefully withdraw) is evidence that Paki macacas won, Zeemacaca the Bhand thinks he won after being thoroughly humiliated and forced to admit that he was peddling myths.

#566 by Bhaand_macaca admits:

It could be that they ran out of coffins, so they had to import them.

Aaah .. finally he concedes they ran out of coffins. Thanks. So Musharraf was right after all in saying:

``The Indians actually ran short of coffins, owing to an unexpectedly high number of casualties; and a scandal later came to light in this regard.``

Because if they ran out of coffins, it obviously means casualties were unexpectedly much higher than the logistical arrangements made ahead in this regard..

Thanks & Bye till the next time you wish to be macaca`ed!

#537 by hamidm2 Re: # 535

..... do you really think the taliban have won ?

Yes. Taliban have won just by not running away and keeping up their offensive despite your `daisycutters`. Same reason as the Hazballah win in ebanon.

...... What have they won ?

Recognition as a legitimate force in their country instead of just `terrorists` and `thugs`; now on the negotiating table with their powerful enemies.

........ are they better off than the japanese and the germans who `lost` ? ........

Yes. Because the Germans and the Japanese are completely `defeated` nations who handed over their respective sovereignty to their enemies. They were never allowed to rearm and neither will be till history takes another significant turn; and in the meantime will remain dependent upon their very enemies for their own very security.

But I guess you mean are they better off in 2 car garages terms? I guess not, but I also know they do not prefer 2 car garages over national sovereignty.

Re: # 567 by zeemax on October 4, 2006 11:39pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

Do you really think that those terrorists in Afghanistan have won? They are the ones who call themselves as fighters and can not fight like a man. Yet, they have cuased mayhem and destruction in that God-forsaken country, ever since Shah Zahir Shah was toppled. Inviting Arabs amongst their fold should show to some of us, where is the Pushtoon Bahaduri gone? Where is the Persian manliness?

The thugs and murderers from the Arab world have shown up and have taken the poor folks of Afghanistan for a ride, and you send them ``qurbani-ki-khalain`` and you consider this winning? eh!

Zeemax, you must get your values checked.

Respectfully submitted,