Hang Guru, if that helps

#123 by Urstruly

“The reason for this reverse-approach is not really the arrogance but it is the inherent sense of ``illegitamacy`` that compels them to use the military force first.”

I am not sure I read this in the same way. The arrogance that we see is inherited by both countries from the colonial rule. For a colonialists and occupier sending the force down to cut up people was a natural and an easy decision and that goes to their arrogance and the feeling of superiority which was the motivating force behind the colonial rule in India and elsewhere.

Unfortunately, our politicians whether they are in the so-called Indian democracy or in military dictatorship in Pakistan still believe that sending the troops down is a sure shot method to deal with the political dissent.

The colonialist created a pompous class of civil servants that not only served the colonialist well but also became the eyes and the ears for our politicians in both countries. For politicians their advice would always be disastrous. The problem is that in feudal societies like India and Pakistan, a civil servant is considered an intelligent person because he/she had passed a dubious exam and politicians are not well versed in the art of leading.

It is not only Kashmir; we see this everywhere in the Subcontinent. At any given time, either the armies or the paramilitary outfits have been quelling political dissents in different parts of the subcontinent and the politicians hide behind “saving the national unity” nonsense.

“So much poison has been fed into Indian public with this propaganda that no Indian government would dare to work on a political option.”

This again goes to my earlier suggestion that it is easy for politicians to wrap themselves in the “national unity” chador rather then take some hard decisions.

“that no Indian government would dare to work on a political option.”

One reason I like the US democracy over the British democracy is that a politicians after becoming the President is a tad above his political party and has maximum eight years to promote bad policies. The next President always has the ability to change the course. The British type of democracy in countries like India ties a political party to a wrong policy and only a catastrophic event could possibly force the party to change the course.

In an era of weak coalitions, no party is safe enough to change the course. If one party has made the mistake of sending the army, the other party just can’t change that decision unless it has an overwhelming mandate to do that.

“This is the cage Americans have trapped themselves into as well, and a situation has come that no face saving measure is good enough for them in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

True! I used to think that pulling the US army from Iraq would be a disaster as that will allow the extreme rightwing religious fanatics to claim victory and prolly bring down at least four and half governments in the ME.(Pakistan being the half). However, now I feel that it would not happen. After some research and study, I now feel that the fundamentalist may claim victory but they are not powerful enough in any country to actually bring down the governments. I think a substantial portion of the US think tanks is coming around to this thought too. But as I mentioned in one of my post on another thread, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is more like “pride or vanity war” for this administration and I am not sure they are capable of swallowing their pride to initiate the about face.

Re: # 93 HP

That is a very interesting post and a real food for thought. In my opinion Indian government has lost its opportunity to establish a political parity viz a viz the people of occupied Kashmir for good (and I am not including Pakistan in this equation). In other words, now it has become impossible for India to establish a pre-`88 era political order in Kashmir. The fatal mistake that all forces that do not have a moral foothold, make is that they resort to last option first i.e. they apply the military force first to solve a political quagmire; whereas prudent forces use the political approach first. The reason for this reverse-approach is not really the arrogance but it is the inherent sense of ``illegitamacy`` that compels them to use the military force first. This is a vicious circle, where forces using the military aggression as a political tool have no other option but to become more attrocious, more vicious, and more arrogant to cover for any political setback. Indian intelligentia in their heart rue the day when they decided to jump on American bandwagon of declaring any political force opposing them as terrorists. So much poison has been fed into Indian public with this propaganda that no Indian government would dare to work on a political option. That would be akin to `giving in to the terrorists` and it would make them appear weak. (Several interacts on this thread reflect this mindset). This is the cage Americans have trapped themselves into as well, and a situtaion has come that no face saving measure is good enough for them in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every decision now they make has an adverse political cost. The situation is irreversible.

The bottomline is that even in politics honesty is always the best policy. Realpolitiking (or dishonesty) has a cost, and it is always unbearable at the end.

Re:ballukhan#102

[...We must Hang Afzal Guru to send the right message to these terror masters!!!...]

I would recommed the following - India should give Afzal Guru life term and then launch a propaganda blitz in Kashmir media to highlight the difference between how India deals with such situations versus how Pakistan deals with such situations like their state sponsored murder of Baloch leader Akbar Bugti. We can score some real brownie points in Kashmir and frustrate the Paki`s napak designs on Kashmir forever.

Re:zeemax_mullah_macaca#118

[...That post was in response to ranjeet`s amazingly moronic remark that the people who appealed on his behalf must have had his `authorization`...]

Check out today`s story on http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/oct/05parl2.htm?q=tp&file=.htm when his wife met President Kalam (btw, I suppose you know Pres Kalam is a muslim!!).

His wife clearly mentions that Afzal Guru is not against mercey petition. This is her exact quote - ``My husband is not against the mercy petition. He simply seems to have lost faith in the judicial system,`` she explained.

Anyway, this is an internal matter of India between Indians. We will deal with it. It has nothing to do with pagal kuttay jihadis like you from Pakistan. Chal, bhag yaha se, mulley!!

Re: # 112
no, I mean like with the Indian Airlines hijack-there is always the risk that someone will hijack something and want Guru released. At times like those, I do think it would have been better if he had been executed. But that doesn;t last very long.

Will it help if GURU is NOT hanged ?

People will pretend to scream for some days & things will die down afterwards.

#71 by GT

GT, your post is quite unintuitive ... nevertheless ...

Why are you making a hero out of a coward?

How is a person a `coward` if he refuses to plead for his own life?

If he is let loose, this guy will be killed by the ``tough boys``.

Well most of Srinagar does not appear to think so. Are there riots and curfews in Srinagar because people want to kill this `coward`?

Anyway, I am not aware of the details of the case and what information he volunteered by cooperating or which he may have witheld; but as far as I see, a person who is prepared to go to the gallows over asking for mercy is no coward. That post was in response to ranjeet`s amazingly moronic remark that the people who appealed on his behalf must have had his `authorization`; as if his not appealing personally but through relatives would have added weight to the petition.

Afzal Guru forfeited his citizenship by conspiring against the state, a treasonous act. So why the hue and cry over his hanging?

That was fyi. I am still not in favor of the death sentence for an Indian citizen - I would prefer we track down the ISI handlers and assassinate them extra-judicially.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20050804&fname=geelani&sid=6
Part 4 of 7—Supreme Court Judgment:
``

In the instant case, there can be no doubt that the most appropriate punishment is death sentence. That is what has been awarded by the trial Court and the High Court. The present case, which has no parallel in the history of Indian Republic, presents us in crystal clear terms, a spectacle of rarest of rare cases. The very idea of attacking and overpowering a sovereign democratic institution by using powerful arms and explosives and imperiling the safety of a multitude of peoples` representatives, constitutional functionaries and officials of Government of India and engaging into a combat with security forces is a terrorist act of gravest severity. It is a classic example of rarest of rare cases.

The gravity of the crime conceived by the conspirators with the potential of causing enormous casualties and dislocating the functioning of the Government as well as disrupting normal life of the people of India is some thing which cannot be described in words. The incident, which resulted in heavy casualties, had shaken the entire nation and the collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if the capital punishment is awarded to the offender. The challenge to the unity, integrity and sovereignty of India by these acts of terrorists and conspirators, can only be compensated by giving the maximum punishment to the person who is proved to be the conspirator in this treacherous act. The appellant, who is a surrendered militant and who was bent upon repeating the acts of treason against the nation, is a menace to the society and his life should become extinct. Accordingly, we uphold the death sentence. ``

Hang these terrorists quick..........do not show any mercy on these 7/7, Memoms, LeT goons in Pakistan and other convicts..............do it fast so that we can re-affirm out faith in the judiciary and demand quick hanging of the Gujrat riot convicts with the same sense of urgency......... it is time for the civil state to strike back on those who want to destroy the civilian society.................

Once Indians get stubborn about their faith in the Secular and Democratic Indian Constitution the Islamists and TNT mongers would run like rats....................

Re: # 108

``there is always the risk of innocents being taken hostage for him``

Isn`t this the alibi of the gangsters who threaten the city with more crimes if they are sentenced??
Sir, the biggest gangster of all who has been following this line of argument is the General who is telling the west that Pakistan would be thrown into a civil war and the West would be made to bend down if he is made to give over the reigns....

This is plain gundagardi and no civil state should tolerate attacks on itself from Pakistani Islamists.

Re: # 105

``negotiations with Lashkar etc. do not necessarily imply appeasement. For a start, it will be nice to know from them what do they want and what are they willing to offer``

I am amazed to see the ``Good Cop-Bad Cop`` routine followed on the Chowk. These guys feign ignorance and ask us to negotiate with the LeT. Are we stupid ? This is a typical routine from the so called Pakistani ``intellectuals`` who wants the entire world to talk to these terrorist Islamists while offering themselves for negotiation.
the good cop then gets the thing he wants from his victim and the victim all along does not know that both the Good Cop and the Bad Cops were in close complicity.

Not anymore. The Pakistani ``intellectuals`` are now getting exposed as the real masterminds and conspirators of terrorism world wide!!

Re: # 103

`` Indians are willing to spit on their State in say Gwalior, but when it comes to Kashmir the State is next to God. ``

This is pure propaganda that Pakis have lapped up since their childhood. Every Pakistani child has a disturbed schooling with such stories about the ``immoral`` indians. This amazing stereotype is just a product of this hatred taught to them in their schools and madarassas.

#105 GT jai kali kamliwali to you too ;-)
i think i write simple..pls let me know what part is complicated. re pakis..well..no.