Hang Guru, if that helps

I do not believe that Guru should be hanged, because I do not believe in capital punishment. I think a life sentence in a high security jail is what he should get. And I know then that there is always the risk of innocents being taken hostage for him, butthat is an issue the state has to deal with-it does not justify judicial killing.

GT # 105

``it will be nice to know from them what do they want and what are they willing to offer what do they consider feasible and vice versa etc``

Good idea. :)

Re: # 103 by swarrier:

Warrier:

Look you may be right and I completely wrong. But people need to find out for themselves. HP suggests as to how to go about it. Sometimes it is necessary to think outside the box. You may want to reconsider Basu`s negotiations with the Gorkhaland leaders, or Parthasarathy`s negotiations with AASU. The Kashmir situation may not be a zero sum game. Yes,..., yes the Lashkars are a different kettle of fish. But so what? The Indian govt. needs to find out for itself. It should not rely on Musharaf to hand over the goodies ..... Mush. simply can`t.

Re: # 96 by Raw_Dust:

Raw,

You got to understand that the dissolution of India is not a simple matter anymore. Furthermore, negotiations with Lashkar etc. do not necessarily imply appeasement. For a start, it will be nice to know from them what do they want and what are they willing to offer; what do they consider feasible and vice versa etc. etc. Talks can always stop if parties feel that they are worthless.

Jang Bahadur Thapa:

Jai hanumanji ki,

Nice posts. But for the likes of folks like me can you write simply? By the way, you are perhaps the first Indian in chowk to openly thank the Pakistanis. Also, could you please write Pakistanis instead of Pakis? Of course I wouldn`t want you to become Pinko all of a sudden :-)

Guru ji will get life....without parole.

Re: # 97
GT
`` Indians are willing to spit on their State in say Gwalior, but when it comes to Kashmir the State is next to God. ``

I don`t see anything wrong with being critical of the state that you live in because that is what you are supposed to do. Not assume that its Utopia. But few people in Gwalior want their will to be dictated to by forces outside their control.

I don`t think talking to non-Indian groups other than to gain some advantage makes any sense. After gaining that advantage and shoring up our positions any concessions should be dumped. That is the way nation states have always worked. They had better look out for themselves. I haven`t seen any model conscience stricken state get anywhere in the practical world. If making concessions buys us time to build defences to protect our citizens we should do so, and then destroy whoever the concessions were made to.

This is not very moral, but it is eminently practical

Infact the Pakilund`s strategy of inciting Kashmiri Muslims is identical to the Al-Qaeda operations any where in the world. That is not just coincidental but that is because the PAkistani army and its` elites are at the very core of the terror practices and ideologies of Al Qaeda. In fact much of the financing and recruitment is being co-ordianted by the terror masters within Pakistan as well as the ideological supporters in other western countries. I have seen the wanna be self proclaimed ``intellectuals`` and politcal analysts from Purelund trying to broker peace in the west while at the same time controlling and inciting poor muslims else where.
This is a double game being played by these elites and they are slowly and surely getting exposed. The so called `educated` Pakis are infact the defcto terror masters of this world. The real conspiracies are not envisioned by the uneducated and idiot mullahs- the concrete and real support comes from these so called `educated` Pakis who make those grand jehadi strategies and actively encourage and abet the mullahs to incite the common muslims into getting brainwashed. The worl can see that we do not see any Jehad against the oppressive rulers and dictators- that is because the mullahs do not have the brains to taake any political action without the support and resources of the powerful Paki elites like Hate Potty!!!
The correct strategy to fight communal terrorism would be to isolate these real Hate Pots, put them under surveillance, view their actions carefully, build evidences of their complicity and support and then bring them down.
We must Hang Afzal Guru to send the right message to these terror masters!!!

..continuation infiltration being hogwash. sure, even before indian govt was talking, it was denied anyhoo by paki govt. so true, talking of it is just that, talk. but practically lowering infilteration does help ..fewer IEDs etc. e.g. the firing across LOC has stopped (a big win for indians and peace, thanks pakis) and its less cover for infiltrators. that is yet another step towards ``normalcy`` and then the buses etc. so, yeah..more normalcy, is what indian govt wants, they are not looking for a solution to kashmir, they are looking for a solution to violence.

i dont understand ..but IMO indian state has done very well in kashmir after old screwups. they have held successively better participated elections, marginalized militants, had tourists back, and even have some hi tech bussiness in the valley..i was a technical report the other day from a market-research setup in Budgam. pakis may be feeling left out but that is a different issue. now, we have militancy in naxal areas of gadchiroli in maharashtra and telangana, and plenty lawlessness in bihar. we have to understand india is a 3rd world nation and does not have a 1-st world police or army or human rights. i mean a common man in dilli can also get a big danda from cops.

so yeah..things are not perfect, but appear to be improving. its true that the govt has no intention of discussing a solution..because status quo with less (limited) violence is the desired solution and then let politics play out its natural course..different chors every 5 years, and higher levels of autonomy for all states including J&K.

#95
IMO, you are living in a dream world if you expect that India will legitimise the roles of Pak intelligence agencies and Pak-Punjabi jihadi groups in Indian Kashmir when these entities are self-declared enemies not only of India`s interests but of Indian nationhood itself. I highly doubt these entities care much for Kashmiri self-determination either.

Re: # 96 by Raw_Dust

Raw,

Got to go now. Will talk later.

Re: # 93 by HP:

I am in ABSOLUTE agreement with what you are saying here (except for the last paragraph). If more and more Indians start thinking along these lines then there is some possibility that we have some respite in the near future. But unfortunately, this won`t happen. Indians are willing to spit on their State in say Gwalior, but when it comes to Kashmir the State is next to God.

GT:
Negotiations with ISI/Musharraf/Lashkar in reality means negotiating the dissolution of Indian Union.

You cannot negotiate with the party that wants to eliminate you and using the threat of excessive violence as bargaining chip. The word for that kind of talks is appeasement.

Re: # 94 by sadna

sadna:

``Then why should the state talk to Lashkar and ISI who are coercing Abdul ...``

Because:

1. The state has not been able to stop Lashkar and the ISI from coercing Abdul.

2. The Indian state is responsible for Abdul`s security. Abdul pays the state for this service. When he buys a bundle of beedis half the amount goes to the state.

#92
``I am not sure that Abdul mian is choosing freely.``

Then why should the state talk to Lashkar and ISI who are coercing Abdul - on the contrary the state should continue to fight Lashkar and ISI, otherwise it will be failing in its duties towards Abdul. You can`t have it both ways.

#83 by GT

What you are describing is part of the political process and the continuation of the process will result in success. The problem with the Indian government is that it has no goals in those negotiations. So it cannot decide what success it is looking for. It cannot decide whether it wants to maintain control of Kashmir the way it was in the 80s or it is ready for some concessions. It talks with different elements in the state, and once those elements are able to figure out that the Indian government has no clearly defined goals, they start using the process to increase their support.

My point here: as you step in to negotiations with the people you have been fighting with for a long time, you need to have some idea as to how far you can go; otherwise, you will lose in the process. That is exactly what happened in Kashmir. The Indian government appears to be clueless as to what it can do. If it is able to tell Pakistan or the insurgent that this is how far it will go, the opposing parties will adjust to that.

Since the Indian Government lacks the political capital and is unable to deal with its political opposition both in Kashmir and within India, it reverts to the easy way, which is to create situations that will allow it to regain ground in the internal political struggle.

After the Indian government talked with different groups, it has legitimized those groups (lashkar or not) in Kashmir and now all talk of terrorism and infiltration is just hogwash.