My Ramadan
Fiza Asar October 5, 2006
#279 Posted by raziab9 on November 30, 2006 5:51:13 pm
Re: # 118 FizaPK
Dear FizaPK,
BJKumar, along with other logically falacious noodle-heads have refused to grow up and out of their current imbalanced mental states. I apologize on their behalf and ask that you ignore their posts :)
RB
Dear FizaPK,
BJKumar, along with other logically falacious noodle-heads have refused to grow up and out of their current imbalanced mental states. I apologize on their behalf and ask that you ignore their posts :)
RB
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#278 Posted by raziab9 on November 30, 2006 5:47:27 pm
Re: # 118 by masadi on October 7, 2006 9:58pm PT
Dear masadi,
BJKumar, along with other logically falacious noodle-heads have refused to grow up and out of their current imbalanced mental states. I apologize on their behalf and ask that you ignore their posts :)
RB
Dear masadi,
BJKumar, along with other logically falacious noodle-heads have refused to grow up and out of their current imbalanced mental states. I apologize on their behalf and ask that you ignore their posts :)
RB
#277 Posted by okhla99 on October 15, 2006 9:10:16 pm
Masadi,
Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,
Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):
Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???
Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?
Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?
Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???
And also try to recollect your answers to the above.
Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget ???
Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,
Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):
Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???
Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?
Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?
Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???
And also try to recollect your answers to the above.
Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget ???
#276 Posted by harimau on October 15, 2006 9:33:22 am
Ref masadi #275
[Hard work has little to do with games of chance, less of, or more of, a game of chance does not take away from that fact that the odds favor the casino. Few win, most lose, the casino wins always. Details of the games is immaterial.]
Except in the case of Blackjack. When played with a known number of decks (1 to 4), one could count the cards that have been dealt and figure out whether one`s chances improve or decrease. That is why people suspected of card counting are thrown out of casinos with a warning never to come back.... as happened to the MIT team.
[Hard work has little to do with games of chance, less of, or more of, a game of chance does not take away from that fact that the odds favor the casino. Few win, most lose, the casino wins always. Details of the games is immaterial.]
Except in the case of Blackjack. When played with a known number of decks (1 to 4), one could count the cards that have been dealt and figure out whether one`s chances improve or decrease. That is why people suspected of card counting are thrown out of casinos with a warning never to come back.... as happened to the MIT team.
#275 Posted by masadi on October 13, 2006 4:09:08 pm
harimau writes <<< The casinos in Las Vegas offer games of chance. Slot machines, baccarat, etc., involve purely random events. >>>
Hard work has little to do with games of chance, less of, or more of, a game of chance does not take away from that fact that the odds favor the casino. Few win, most lose, the casino wins always. Details of the games is immaterial.
Hard work has little to do with games of chance, less of, or more of, a game of chance does not take away from that fact that the odds favor the casino. Few win, most lose, the casino wins always. Details of the games is immaterial.
#274 Posted by ZahraJ on October 13, 2006 9:47:05 am
Echo -
[self-appointed ``elite`` & noveau Rich ]
Really. I thought that only enlightened monks posted here :)
[self-appointed ``elite`` & noveau Rich ]
Really. I thought that only enlightened monks posted here :)
#273 Posted by echoboom on October 13, 2006 8:48:15 am
Zahraj:272
It is always nice to be in your good books...your chutkiaaN , notwitstanding.
It`ll be very naive of me to overlook the benefits of technology. I myself having pursued a a Master`s in Engineering.
Two reasons:
1) The ganging up by the self-appointed ``elite`` & noveau Rich here on Mr. Masadi was simply getting unbearable. I have this Alsatian-like desire to attack anyone who kicks the underdog.
2) It is always a good idea sometimes to separate the ``personna`` from the ``writer``. Even if I admire technology I consider philosophy, music, religion, and poetry to the ultimate
Ilm (learning). Anything that deals with matter & can acquire value is a handmaiden to above.
P.S: Contrary to the image I present here, I am--to my dismay, not as ``pious`` , as I would desire.
P.S: Have a good Ramazan ( written purposely like this for you) & even a Great Eid.
It is always nice to be in your good books...your chutkiaaN , notwitstanding.
It`ll be very naive of me to overlook the benefits of technology. I myself having pursued a a Master`s in Engineering.
Two reasons:
1) The ganging up by the self-appointed ``elite`` & noveau Rich here on Mr. Masadi was simply getting unbearable. I have this Alsatian-like desire to attack anyone who kicks the underdog.
2) It is always a good idea sometimes to separate the ``personna`` from the ``writer``. Even if I admire technology I consider philosophy, music, religion, and poetry to the ultimate
Ilm (learning). Anything that deals with matter & can acquire value is a handmaiden to above.
P.S: Contrary to the image I present here, I am--to my dismay, not as ``pious`` , as I would desire.
P.S: Have a good Ramazan ( written purposely like this for you) & even a Great Eid.
#272 Posted by ZahraJ on October 13, 2006 8:18:19 am
Echo -
Thank you for posting about Muhammad Younus. Mr. Younus indeed deserved the honor for his strategy and execution. I am sure many at the World Bank and worldwide will be happy to hear the news. Hope you are enjoying the last 10 days of the holy month. It won`t be a bad idea to consider aitakaa`f.
Polite Wishes.
Note: Please do not undermine the power of both ``craft and technology``. Just think about it, if there was no technology you won`t have been able to post your loving posts to the rest of the mankind. And you would not have gotten the instant news about Mr. Younus`s achievement. At least, be thankful to God for his blessings :)
Thank you for posting about Muhammad Younus. Mr. Younus indeed deserved the honor for his strategy and execution. I am sure many at the World Bank and worldwide will be happy to hear the news. Hope you are enjoying the last 10 days of the holy month. It won`t be a bad idea to consider aitakaa`f.
Polite Wishes.
Note: Please do not undermine the power of both ``craft and technology``. Just think about it, if there was no technology you won`t have been able to post your loving posts to the rest of the mankind. And you would not have gotten the instant news about Mr. Younus`s achievement. At least, be thankful to God for his blessings :)
#271 Posted by echoboom on October 13, 2006 4:46:07 am
Escapist:
Pakistan has been ranked consistently by UN organisations as the NUMBER ONE country
when it comes to INDIVIDUAL Charity. It is no coincidence that Sattar Edhi is from there.
But those who look in the mirror and ask every day `` Mirror Mirror, who is the ugliest of all
& once they hear it is MUSLIMS & PAKISTANIS they smile with satisfaction:``but I`m not Paki, I`m not muslim. I look Jamaican! & off to slavery they go``
Donating Billions after eating 900 rats is EASY!
If Jimmy Carter was lauded, then I can understand but the likes of Buffet or Bill Gates?
................Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakh Thoooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Never brought anything NEW to the world either material or emotional or spiritual.
Just rehashed , realigned , & rearranged MATTER--No art or science JUST craft & technology!
Laanut bur users & exploiters whose PRIME mover is profit or recognition. A Satanic
attribute indeed. No wonder mankind is terrified of not Divine retribution but of Some men`s
Evil inventions-intentions.
************************************************************
Why? Has a snake sniffed the SECULAROONS, MUNAFIQUOONS, MURTADOONS, LIBERALOONS, and MIRZAOONS?
when a Muslim achieves something and their Master gets nails hammered into his coffin
why do they weep?
Because they paid to become the ``His Maser`s Voice`` & love to drool at his stool.
Another luminary from a Madressa
The basic grounding is required upto age 10; after that no matter where one gets the ``higher`` education one can never ever become Ba Ba Blacksheep. Jinnah, Iqbal, Faiz, Salaam, Edhi are just the obvious examples
Ba Ba Blacksheep & toata-mainaas are just good enough to become millionaires or even billionaires or CEO types MATERIAL movers, never ever MIND movers. Such is the purpose of Macaulay`s education. Macaulay--A GREAT mind-REMOVER indeed!
Nobel for Muhammad Younas--Long Long overdue
Profile: `World banker to the poor`![``Muhammad]()
Pakistan has been ranked consistently by UN organisations as the NUMBER ONE country
when it comes to INDIVIDUAL Charity. It is no coincidence that Sattar Edhi is from there.
But those who look in the mirror and ask every day `` Mirror Mirror, who is the ugliest of all
& once they hear it is MUSLIMS & PAKISTANIS they smile with satisfaction:``but I`m not Paki, I`m not muslim. I look Jamaican! & off to slavery they go``
Donating Billions after eating 900 rats is EASY!
If Jimmy Carter was lauded, then I can understand but the likes of Buffet or Bill Gates?
................Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakh Thoooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Never brought anything NEW to the world either material or emotional or spiritual.
Just rehashed , realigned , & rearranged MATTER--No art or science JUST craft & technology!
Laanut bur users & exploiters whose PRIME mover is profit or recognition. A Satanic
attribute indeed. No wonder mankind is terrified of not Divine retribution but of Some men`s
Evil inventions-intentions.
************************************************************
Why? Has a snake sniffed the SECULAROONS, MUNAFIQUOONS, MURTADOONS, LIBERALOONS, and MIRZAOONS?
when a Muslim achieves something and their Master gets nails hammered into his coffin
why do they weep?
Because they paid to become the ``His Maser`s Voice`` & love to drool at his stool.
Another luminary from a Madressa
The basic grounding is required upto age 10; after that no matter where one gets the ``higher`` education one can never ever become Ba Ba Blacksheep. Jinnah, Iqbal, Faiz, Salaam, Edhi are just the obvious examples
Ba Ba Blacksheep & toata-mainaas are just good enough to become millionaires or even billionaires or CEO types MATERIAL movers, never ever MIND movers. Such is the purpose of Macaulay`s education. Macaulay--A GREAT mind-REMOVER indeed!
Profile: `World banker to the poor`
Muhammad Yunus was ``really delighted`` by the award
Muhammad Yunus is often referred to as
``the world`s banker to the poor``.
His revolutionary Grameen (Village) banking system is estimated to have extended credit to more than seven million of the world`s poor, most of them in Bangladesh, one of the poorest nations in the world.
The vast majority of the beneficiaries are women.
Mr Yunus came up with the idea in 1976 while professor of economics at Chittagong University in southern Bangladesh.
YUNUS was born on June 28, 1940 in Chittagong, Bengal, India—which became part of East Pakistan in 1947 and Bangladesh in 1971. His father, Muhammad Dula Meah, was a prosperous gold-jewelry merchant whose limited (seventh grade) education and deep religious beliefs never prevented him from encouraging YUNUS and his brothers to study, travel and experience new things. YUNUS` mother, Sufia Khatun, attended school only up to fourth grade, but she was a very intelligent woman. She could read, and YUNUS remembers her repeating stories and reciting poems to her children. The first child in the family was a girl who married at 13 or 14. The next child and first son was educated in an Islamic religious school at his mother`s request, but then went on to study commerce and law. YUNUS, the third in the family of nine, was the family`s first academic star and world traveler....
..............and the rest is a nail in the coffins of Ba Ba Black-sheep
Muhammad Yunus is often referred to as
``the world`s banker to the poor``.
His revolutionary Grameen (Village) banking system is estimated to have extended credit to more than seven million of the world`s poor, most of them in Bangladesh, one of the poorest nations in the world.
The vast majority of the beneficiaries are women.
Mr Yunus came up with the idea in 1976 while professor of economics at Chittagong University in southern Bangladesh.
YUNUS was born on June 28, 1940 in Chittagong, Bengal, India—which became part of East Pakistan in 1947 and Bangladesh in 1971. His father, Muhammad Dula Meah, was a prosperous gold-jewelry merchant whose limited (seventh grade) education and deep religious beliefs never prevented him from encouraging YUNUS and his brothers to study, travel and experience new things. YUNUS` mother, Sufia Khatun, attended school only up to fourth grade, but she was a very intelligent woman. She could read, and YUNUS remembers her repeating stories and reciting poems to her children. The first child in the family was a girl who married at 13 or 14. The next child and first son was educated in an Islamic religious school at his mother`s request, but then went on to study commerce and law. YUNUS, the third in the family of nine, was the family`s first academic star and world traveler....
..............and the rest is a nail in the coffins of Ba Ba Black-sheep
#270 Posted by escapist on October 12, 2006 10:09:32 pm
Re: # 264
Zahra,
You have talked about Pakistanis not spending on charities and how the culture of this country is not geared toward that.
I just want to say I know hundreds of organisations/hospitals/schools/health societies running on purely charities collected from pakistan. Infact, all the chambers of commerce donate every year. And its not just the business community, I see poeple helping alot. Atleast thats how it is where I live. And I am in Karachi right now.
Regards
Zahra,
You have talked about Pakistanis not spending on charities and how the culture of this country is not geared toward that.
I just want to say I know hundreds of organisations/hospitals/schools/health societies running on purely charities collected from pakistan. Infact, all the chambers of commerce donate every year. And its not just the business community, I see poeple helping alot. Atleast thats how it is where I live. And I am in Karachi right now.
Regards
#269 Posted by Fumair on October 12, 2006 5:27:47 pm
good piece , i grasp the same thought this year,when spent last ramadhan in total inconsistency. I am now a bit grate ful to Almighty for His grant of seheri and aftari at my home with my family , caz prior to last year i use to avail with my friends aaa ramadhan buffets specials in the lighting city.
khair, long story short foot note , i learned my lesson , and don`t let my parents alone at the aftari table.
khair, long story short foot note , i learned my lesson , and don`t let my parents alone at the aftari table.
#268 Posted by harimau on October 12, 2006 4:28:20 pm
Ref masadi #266
[..... thank you for pointing out one more similarity between US society and the Las Vegas Casinos. By the way the losers pull the levers with just as much or more strength and hard work as those that win, so hard work is not a factor in the winning.]
The casinos in Las Vegas offer games of chance. Slot machines, baccarat, etc., involve purely random events.
In the case of Blackjack, when you start counting cards it becomes less of a game of chance.
If you don`t understand that (and you seem not to), you shouldn`t be comparing casinos to a job at General Motors.
[..... thank you for pointing out one more similarity between US society and the Las Vegas Casinos. By the way the losers pull the levers with just as much or more strength and hard work as those that win, so hard work is not a factor in the winning.]
The casinos in Las Vegas offer games of chance. Slot machines, baccarat, etc., involve purely random events.
In the case of Blackjack, when you start counting cards it becomes less of a game of chance.
If you don`t understand that (and you seem not to), you shouldn`t be comparing casinos to a job at General Motors.
#267 Posted by masadi on October 12, 2006 9:11:35 am
GT writes <<< Who is Mills to take Hamid`s analysis to an end, logical or otherwise? I believe that Hamid is quite capable of ending his analysis himself. I feel uncomfortable when ``social theorists`` think on behalf of others >>>
Actually he has a duty to take it to its logical conclusion because hamid 2 pack has not thought about what he is blurting out. What he is blurting out means that power is defined in terms of hard work (knowledge) as is wealth. Which is a prepostrous assertion. Further the entire society and system of education in this coutry is setup on that false presumption (regardless of your disagreement). If you read the quote from Mills he talks about knowledge in such circumstances being taken as an ``instrument``, an instrument to make progess in the market or to ``make it``. Now tell me why do people in the US go to colleges and universities~ for the sake of ``career`` and advancement and more money. Very few take knowledge for the sake of knowledge, most use it as an instrument.
I disagree with Mills on some of his assertions in other areas but on this he is right on, as he is on the structure of power analysis.
Actually he has a duty to take it to its logical conclusion because hamid 2 pack has not thought about what he is blurting out. What he is blurting out means that power is defined in terms of hard work (knowledge) as is wealth. Which is a prepostrous assertion. Further the entire society and system of education in this coutry is setup on that false presumption (regardless of your disagreement). If you read the quote from Mills he talks about knowledge in such circumstances being taken as an ``instrument``, an instrument to make progess in the market or to ``make it``. Now tell me why do people in the US go to colleges and universities~ for the sake of ``career`` and advancement and more money. Very few take knowledge for the sake of knowledge, most use it as an instrument.
I disagree with Mills on some of his assertions in other areas but on this he is right on, as he is on the structure of power analysis.
#266 Posted by masadi on October 12, 2006 9:03:10 am
harimau writes <<< A bunch of MIT graduate students analyzed blackjack, figured out a winning strategy, cleaned out a few casinos and were banned for life from playing >>>
Just like when you figure out how to go around the rigged system and succeed inspite of the powers that be, you end up serving life in prison for ``terrorism``- thank you for pointing out one more similarity between US society and the Las Vegas Casinos. By the way the losers pull the levers with just as much or more strength and hard work as those that win, so hard work is not a factor in the winning.
Just like when you figure out how to go around the rigged system and succeed inspite of the powers that be, you end up serving life in prison for ``terrorism``- thank you for pointing out one more similarity between US society and the Las Vegas Casinos. By the way the losers pull the levers with just as much or more strength and hard work as those that win, so hard work is not a factor in the winning.
#265 Posted by zeemax on October 12, 2006 1:44:59 am
#261 by hamidm2
Hamidm, you completely misread my comments.
1) How many auto manufacturers were there in USA at advent of auto industry and how many now?
2) How many Oil companies were there in USA at advent of Oil industry and how many are there now?
3) What reason do you have to believe same will not happen to the US IT industry?
Hamidm, you completely misread my comments.
1) How many auto manufacturers were there in USA at advent of auto industry and how many now?
2) How many Oil companies were there in USA at advent of Oil industry and how many are there now?
3) What reason do you have to believe same will not happen to the US IT industry?
#264 Posted by ZahraJ on October 11, 2006 10:09:33 pm
ChowkAdmin - You should let this article on the front page till the end of Ramadan. It will keep the audience busy and involved. Hopefully, some of them will learn the charitable act of giving from Gates and Buffet. It may be too difficult to be that giving culturally, but you never know. Real life examples can be inspiring.
#263 Posted by GT on October 11, 2006 7:02:37 pm
Re: # 261 by hamidm2
Hamid:
I really do not want to embarass you, but given the fact that quotations from big guys like huntington (aka OBL) to uncle iqbal RULE the sound bites (or should I say word bites) of common folks like us, I got to say this:
``Keep it up``.
And another issue, and this might get your goat (it got mine too when HP mentioned something similar): YOU MIGHT WANT TO GET A SON_IN_LAW LIKE MASADI. Or your daughter might choose one like him. Now you can do the whole la-hol-etc. But give it a thought. He is probably just like you when you (or I) came to the world of the infidel (the capitalist). He`s got a mind and doesn`t give a damn about what others think of him. And he is confident. So think about it ...... but don`t kill me :-)
Hamid:
I really do not want to embarass you, but given the fact that quotations from big guys like huntington (aka OBL) to uncle iqbal RULE the sound bites (or should I say word bites) of common folks like us, I got to say this:
``Keep it up``.
And another issue, and this might get your goat (it got mine too when HP mentioned something similar): YOU MIGHT WANT TO GET A SON_IN_LAW LIKE MASADI. Or your daughter might choose one like him. Now you can do the whole la-hol-etc. But give it a thought. He is probably just like you when you (or I) came to the world of the infidel (the capitalist). He`s got a mind and doesn`t give a damn about what others think of him. And he is confident. So think about it ...... but don`t kill me :-)
#262 Posted by echoboom on October 11, 2006 5:12:03 pm
Zeemax:
Why are these Uncle Toms going ga-ga deevanaas at someone else`s wedding. How does living in a brownstone next to the most expensive penthouse make one great, I fail to understand.
But the dumbo-donkeys keep on the mantra: ``Ah! but my future is bright``.
The Lion & the Mule
The Lion:
``Among the inhabitantsof the jungle, you stand apart
What be your lineage, your bloodline & your folks?``
The Mule:
`` Does your honour not know my uncle, mommy`s bro?
He`s the champion stallion..that sire of Royal Stable``.
.................................................................Allama Iqbal.
P.S: These are masticated squeezed Gandairees, Sugar-cane bites, time to spit them out.
Why are these Uncle Toms going ga-ga deevanaas at someone else`s wedding. How does living in a brownstone next to the most expensive penthouse make one great, I fail to understand.
But the dumbo-donkeys keep on the mantra: ``Ah! but my future is bright``.
The Lion:
``Among the inhabitantsof the jungle, you stand apart
What be your lineage, your bloodline & your folks?``
The Mule:
`` Does your honour not know my uncle, mommy`s bro?
He`s the champion stallion..that sire of Royal Stable``.
.................................................................Allama Iqbal.
P.S: These are masticated squeezed Gandairees, Sugar-cane bites, time to spit them out.
#261 Posted by hamidm2 on October 11, 2006 12:07:54 pm
Re: # 251
zeemax,
..... have you heard of dot.com II ????
...... and who says the boom in the auto industry is dead !? ..... if it were i would be unemployed and sitting in the basement with masadi waiting for the cheese truck to pull up ! .........
....... the products are better than ever, margins are better than ever, more veicles are being sold globally than ever before, and the forecasts are going through the roof ! ............. michigan is suffering because the big-3 are paying for their past sins; but there is a whole new auto industry down south in mississippi, kentucky, alabama and tennesee .......... and let`s not even talk about china - with 5.7M vehicles sold last year and a growth rate of 15-20% a year, that is another story by itself ! ............. it is a global industry and south east michigan is not the barometer ...... gm is the #2 automaker in china with 11% of the market - believe it or not, but the lowly buick regal is a premium brand over there ......
........... in the us, while gm is loosing $782 per vehicle, toyota is laughing all the way to the bank with $2,083 profit per vehicle ...... of course gm pays $1,635 per vehicle in health care cost (1,120 of which is for retirees), toyota pays less $215 ..............plants are turning out 400,000 cars a year when ten years ago the average was around 150 ........ new players like hyundai are making even toyota look over its shoulder and the 7+ chinese automakers are chomping at the bit ................ the consumer has a lot more choices and he is getting a more for the buck ............... and why ? ....... because the system works ....... why? .............. because people in the business world have not heard of mills and masadi .............
........ the pie keeps on getting bigger and better ............
zeemax,
..... have you heard of dot.com II ????
...... and who says the boom in the auto industry is dead !? ..... if it were i would be unemployed and sitting in the basement with masadi waiting for the cheese truck to pull up ! .........
....... the products are better than ever, margins are better than ever, more veicles are being sold globally than ever before, and the forecasts are going through the roof ! ............. michigan is suffering because the big-3 are paying for their past sins; but there is a whole new auto industry down south in mississippi, kentucky, alabama and tennesee .......... and let`s not even talk about china - with 5.7M vehicles sold last year and a growth rate of 15-20% a year, that is another story by itself ! ............. it is a global industry and south east michigan is not the barometer ...... gm is the #2 automaker in china with 11% of the market - believe it or not, but the lowly buick regal is a premium brand over there ......
........... in the us, while gm is loosing $782 per vehicle, toyota is laughing all the way to the bank with $2,083 profit per vehicle ...... of course gm pays $1,635 per vehicle in health care cost (1,120 of which is for retirees), toyota pays less $215 ..............plants are turning out 400,000 cars a year when ten years ago the average was around 150 ........ new players like hyundai are making even toyota look over its shoulder and the 7+ chinese automakers are chomping at the bit ................ the consumer has a lot more choices and he is getting a more for the buck ............... and why ? ....... because the system works ....... why? .............. because people in the business world have not heard of mills and masadi .............
........ the pie keeps on getting bigger and better ............
#260 Posted by bulleya on October 11, 2006 10:35:24 am
hamidm mian....``if you did, you are a bigger fool than arjun makes you out to be ..........``
``jabb pyaar kiyaa tou darna kyaa.....``
......pragmatism may seem like a successful long term way of approaching life........however, there is a lot to said about conviction.......every now and then, one should make a few of life`s decision on conviction and not on pragmatism..........you may want to try it some time........it will make life a lot simpler, and will go a long way in simplifying the complex issues you maybe having difficulty trying to figure out.........
i left the military in even more spontaneous circumstances than i left the usa.........and with far far more conviction and almost no pragmatism........have yet to regret either of those two decisions........
.......a fool who can look everyone in the eye, with a clear conscious, is much better than a genius who cannot.........
``jabb pyaar kiyaa tou darna kyaa.....``
......pragmatism may seem like a successful long term way of approaching life........however, there is a lot to said about conviction.......every now and then, one should make a few of life`s decision on conviction and not on pragmatism..........you may want to try it some time........it will make life a lot simpler, and will go a long way in simplifying the complex issues you maybe having difficulty trying to figure out.........
i left the military in even more spontaneous circumstances than i left the usa.........and with far far more conviction and almost no pragmatism........have yet to regret either of those two decisions........
.......a fool who can look everyone in the eye, with a clear conscious, is much better than a genius who cannot.........
#259 Posted by DrDr on October 11, 2006 10:29:47 am
zeemax u r incorrigibly cynical even by desi standards..
fwiw, bill gates isnt religious - he probably is an atheist so its not like hes looking 4 credits in afterlife.
U cud either hold ppl to absolute standards or to relative 1s. By the standard of his contemporaries ANYWHERE bill gates is a true philanthropist. He isnt robbing peter 2 pay paul - thats true 1ly if u believe business is a zero sum thing. Secondly he ``robbed`` the rich 2 give 2 the poor - our eternal robin hood (he aint robbin` the hood).
fwiw, bill gates isnt religious - he probably is an atheist so its not like hes looking 4 credits in afterlife.
U cud either hold ppl to absolute standards or to relative 1s. By the standard of his contemporaries ANYWHERE bill gates is a true philanthropist. He isnt robbing peter 2 pay paul - thats true 1ly if u believe business is a zero sum thing. Secondly he ``robbed`` the rich 2 give 2 the poor - our eternal robin hood (he aint robbin` the hood).
#258 Posted by zeemax on October 11, 2006 9:43:08 am
#257 by DrDr
You`ve raised an important question. Why did Warren Buffet do it? Because he realized he`s reaching the end of the rainbow and he can`t take any of it with him. And he made it all in the stock market, not by doing good for anyone but playing a zero-sum game. He also knew if he left it for his kids, they`ll lose it all in less than a decade and back to square one. So maybe he felt he was ultimately accountable.
Same for Bill Gates. He realized the futility of it all ... and felt he should help humanity. That`s BS. First he was the cruelest monopolists of them all who was ruthless with competition, and would simply kill it regardless of how many jobs he trampled, then he turned into caring about malaria in Africa.
But all these people will not achieve their salvation in this manner.
As Islam says ``The essence of deeds is in the intentions, not in the deeds on their own``.
You`ve raised an important question. Why did Warren Buffet do it? Because he realized he`s reaching the end of the rainbow and he can`t take any of it with him. And he made it all in the stock market, not by doing good for anyone but playing a zero-sum game. He also knew if he left it for his kids, they`ll lose it all in less than a decade and back to square one. So maybe he felt he was ultimately accountable.
Same for Bill Gates. He realized the futility of it all ... and felt he should help humanity. That`s BS. First he was the cruelest monopolists of them all who was ruthless with competition, and would simply kill it regardless of how many jobs he trampled, then he turned into caring about malaria in Africa.
But all these people will not achieve their salvation in this manner.
As Islam says ``The essence of deeds is in the intentions, not in the deeds on their own``.
#257 Posted by DrDr on October 11, 2006 9:31:33 am
251 zeemax
Now u have outdone urself. I wonder y u think Warren Buffett is giving his money away. Y is Gates giving 2 foundations that r heavily involved in africa. Is that guilt conscience too?
Now u have outdone urself. I wonder y u think Warren Buffett is giving his money away. Y is Gates giving 2 foundations that r heavily involved in africa. Is that guilt conscience too?
#256 Posted by GT on October 11, 2006 7:50:56 am
Re: # 244 by masadi
Asadi:
``Regarding Mills, like I said he is merely taking the assertion of Hamid 2 pack to its logical conclusion which does indeed lead to equivalence, ``ideal type`` analysis of every kind can similarly be equated. What he is simply stating is that it is prepostrous to define power in terms of knowledge, or wealth in terms of knowledge. Very simple statement, you want to pick at its molecules to discredit what he says which is quite disingenuous.``
Who is Mills to take Hamid`s analysis to an end, logical or otherwise? I believe that Hamid is quite capable of ending his analysis himself. I feel uncomfortable when ``social theorists`` think on behalf of others and pass off these exercises as ``facts`` instead of ``assumptions``, ``models`` or ``beliefs``. For me this is not ``picking at molecules``. [Let me state upfront that I too make this mistake but I try not to do so]. Also, what makes you think that I am trying to discredit Mills? If I wanted to do so I would have tried to publish an article in a journal run by the followers of Mills (if there is one) and not in Chowk. I have not tried to do so and that is because I believe that Mills had reasonably profound things to say. [Again, let me state upfront that none of the things that I have published are as original or profound]. But that in no way means that I agree with Mills in everything that he says. So, do take it from me that I am not ``disingenuous`` about it. Link up the dots and the same goes for my ``having it both ways``.
Asadi:
``Regarding Mills, like I said he is merely taking the assertion of Hamid 2 pack to its logical conclusion which does indeed lead to equivalence, ``ideal type`` analysis of every kind can similarly be equated. What he is simply stating is that it is prepostrous to define power in terms of knowledge, or wealth in terms of knowledge. Very simple statement, you want to pick at its molecules to discredit what he says which is quite disingenuous.``
Who is Mills to take Hamid`s analysis to an end, logical or otherwise? I believe that Hamid is quite capable of ending his analysis himself. I feel uncomfortable when ``social theorists`` think on behalf of others and pass off these exercises as ``facts`` instead of ``assumptions``, ``models`` or ``beliefs``. For me this is not ``picking at molecules``. [Let me state upfront that I too make this mistake but I try not to do so]. Also, what makes you think that I am trying to discredit Mills? If I wanted to do so I would have tried to publish an article in a journal run by the followers of Mills (if there is one) and not in Chowk. I have not tried to do so and that is because I believe that Mills had reasonably profound things to say. [Again, let me state upfront that none of the things that I have published are as original or profound]. But that in no way means that I agree with Mills in everything that he says. So, do take it from me that I am not ``disingenuous`` about it. Link up the dots and the same goes for my ``having it both ways``.
#255 Posted by arjun2 on October 11, 2006 7:27:39 am
#251 by zeemax on October 11, 2006 3:34am PT
peemax: you have no idea what you are talking about? BG giving away his wealth because of his guilt...3G is dead..
where did you read all this: IT for cab drivers?
peemax: you have no idea what you are talking about? BG giving away his wealth because of his guilt...3G is dead..
where did you read all this: IT for cab drivers?
#254 Posted by zeemax on October 11, 2006 4:31:15 am
#253 by echoboom
Hmmm ...thanks. Very hard hitting article, but unforunately for hamidm2, the truth.
Bring out the nails to hammer into the coffin of the Empire-builder`s dream, but keep a silver bullet handy..........
Great advice!
Hmmm ...thanks. Very hard hitting article, but unforunately for hamidm2, the truth.
Bring out the nails to hammer into the coffin of the Empire-builder`s dream, but keep a silver bullet handy..........
Great advice!
#253 Posted by echoboom on October 11, 2006 4:04:57 am
Hamidm2:
It is time to celebrate. Each day brings about a new exlixir of hope for those who want to see the worlds first gangster nation brought down to its knees.
It is quite understandable that the field-niggers growing plump eating the massas leftovers and the all the women & children of the Mafiosis & thugs sing hymns to their providers for having established their ``nation`` where freedom reigns supreme...as long as heaps of the living dead beyond their own fences are kept in good proportion.
You guys sound like the donkey of the fable who kept on talking about ...``but,my future is bright``.
`` The fire in the belly is driving us from one city to the next
Dogs in the eyes of the world;we delusioned emigrants``........Iftikhar Arif.
`` Just a few days more, my love, just a few days more
Are left for , us to endure this dark dark Opression
Just for a few more days this torture, these tears
we inherited from our ancestors; for no fault of ours``...................Faiz
So Q2:
Stop twiddling your thumbs & counting your options. Sitting on the fence too long will soon need Preparation-H2treatment
Pak Tribune,
Pakistan
`Time to `Drive the Nails` Into `Dream of Empire`s Coffin`
It is time to celebrate. Each day brings about a new exlixir of hope for those who want to see the worlds first gangster nation brought down to its knees.
It is quite understandable that the field-niggers growing plump eating the massas leftovers and the all the women & children of the Mafiosis & thugs sing hymns to their providers for having established their ``nation`` where freedom reigns supreme...as long as heaps of the living dead beyond their own fences are kept in good proportion.
You guys sound like the donkey of the fable who kept on talking about ...``but,my future is bright``.
`` The fire in the belly is driving us from one city to the next
Dogs in the eyes of the world;we delusioned emigrants``........Iftikhar Arif.
`` Just a few days more, my love, just a few days more
Are left for , us to endure this dark dark Opression
Just for a few more days this torture, these tears
we inherited from our ancestors; for no fault of ours``...................Faiz
So Q2:
Stop twiddling your thumbs & counting your options. Sitting on the fence too long will soon need Preparation-H2treatment
Pak Tribune,
Pakistan
`Time to `Drive the Nails` Into `Dream of Empire`s Coffin`
By Anwaar Hussain* 
October 2, 2006
Pakistan`s Pak Tribune - Original Article (English)
Bring out the nails to be hammered into the coffin. Waning badly from trying to create outposts in Afghanistan and Iraq, the death of America`s dream of Empire is fast approaching. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. In the first neoconservative neo-colony of Afghanistan, the Taliban are on the rise like the fabled phoenix rising from the ashes. Once again they openly control most of southern Afghanistan, setting up a shadow administration. Coalition forces are getting the beating of their lives from the rag tag Taliban. The whining and griping among coalition troops over their looming defeat increases with every passing day. Meanwhile on the Pakistani side of the frontier, rather than trying to reinforce failure, General Musharraf has beaten a hasty retreat from bordering Waziristan. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. Drunk with delusions of grandeur and self-adulation, the Empire seekers made bad choices in Afghanistan when they ignored the warnings of Sir Olaf Caroe, the last British governor of Pakistan`s Northwest Frontier Province. Caroe said: ``Unlike other wars, Afghan wars become serious only when they are over.`` Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The Empire seekers failed to understand, and still don`t, that it`s not the phenomenon of the Taliban that writes the epitaph on the grave of the Empire-builder`s dream, but it`s Pashtun RealVideo culture itself that is responsible. They failed to study the history that the British know only too well, but chose to withhold from their gullible partners. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The Empire seekers have tried to defeat with brawn what they should have conquered with brain. They failed to realize that the rise and fall of the Taliban was but a brief moment in history in this rugged part of the world, and that Taliban or no Taliban, resisting foreign occupation is a way of life for them. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The Empire seekers failed to comprehend that the Afghan Pashtuns may have been briefly subdued, but invariably they bounce back against their enemies with renewed strength and malice. They are equally renowned for their loyalty to friends and for their fierce blood feuds and hatred of their enemies. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The Empire seekers refused to learn from history that as far as their blood feuds are concerned, the patience of the Afghan Pashtuns is as great as their mighty Hindukush [mountains]. These are some of the most battle-hardened tribal people on earth, having withstood the military might of Alexander the Great, the Mogul Emperors, the Soviets and the British. They don’t consider death too high a price to pay for their honor. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The Empire seekers ignored the wisdom passed on to them from the Europeans since the days of Alexander. Afghanistan is a vast expanse of desolate plains and untamed mountains, ferocious warriors, uncompromising Islam, vicious tribal rivalries, and a complex politics that entwines bloodlines, chivalry, religion and history. It is a land of great mystery that should have been left to find stability on its own. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. In Iraq too, for the rigor mortis has nearly set in to corpse of the Empire-builder`s dream. There is a sense of finality that hasn’t existed during the past four years of occupation of that unfortunate country. Success in Iraq is no longer defined as defeating the sandal-footed resistance fighters, but rather to hold on long enough for something or someone to relieve the bogged down, war-weary and dehumanized American troops. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. The recently declassified National Intelligence Estimate calls Iraq a ``cause celebre RealVideo`` not for resisters of American occupation, but for ``terrorists.`` This deliberate attempt to confuse the two is likely to cost the Empire seekers more dearly with each passing day. Bring out the nails.
Bob Woodward`s new book, State of Denial,`
has shaken up pre-election Washington.
Bring out the nails. Veteran Washington reporter Bob Woodward tells Mike Wallace in an interview to be broadcast Oct. 1, that the Bush Administration has not told the truth regarding the level of violence in Iraq, especially against U.S. troops, and that attacks against coalition troops are getting to the point, ``where there are eight, nine-hundred attacks a week. That`s more than 100 a day. That is four an hour attacking our forces`` Woodward said. And intelligence reports predict that the insurgency will only grow worse over next year. Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails. According to Woodward, the President and Vice President have begun to regularly consult with Henry Kissinger, the war criminal and author of the Cambodian Bombing campaign which contributed so much to the civil war in that country. Kissinger thinks that in Iraq ``victory is the only meaningful exit strategy`` and that ``the problem in Vietnam was that we lost our will.`` Bring out the nails.
Bring out the nails to hammer into the coffin of the Empire-builder`s dream, but keep a silver bullet handy should the monster make a last-ditch attempt to escape from its eternal grave.
Bring out the nails.
*Anwaar Hussain is a former Pakistan Air Force F-16 fighter pilot. With a Masters in Defense and Strategic Studies from Quaid-e-Azam University Islamabad, he now resides in United Arab Emirates. He has published a series of articles in Defense Journal, South Asia Tribune and a host of other web portals. Other than international affairs, Anwaar Hussain has written extensively on the religious and political issues that plague Pakistan.
#252 Posted by harimau on October 11, 2006 3:55:16 am
Ref masadi #246
[True, like a Las Vegas Casino, few win big, (with hard work and knowledge playing no part)]
Even in Vegasland, knowledge plays a part in winning.
A bunch of MIT graduate students analyzed blackjack, figured out a winning strategy, cleaned out a few casinos and were banned for life from playing. There was a 2-hour show about in on public television channels a couple of years back.
Most of the students had Jewish names. Just like those who enroll in jihadi schools have Muslim names.
When the shoe fits, wear it. Don`t complain about being singled out at airports for detailed frisking when you are named Mohammad.
[True, like a Las Vegas Casino, few win big, (with hard work and knowledge playing no part)]
Even in Vegasland, knowledge plays a part in winning.
A bunch of MIT graduate students analyzed blackjack, figured out a winning strategy, cleaned out a few casinos and were banned for life from playing. There was a 2-hour show about in on public television channels a couple of years back.
Most of the students had Jewish names. Just like those who enroll in jihadi schools have Muslim names.
When the shoe fits, wear it. Don`t complain about being singled out at airports for detailed frisking when you are named Mohammad.
#251 Posted by zeemax on October 11, 2006 3:34:27 am
#243 by hamidm2
Gold rushes don`t last for very long. At the outset everyone can pan the rivers and dig dirt with bare hands for Gold, till the conglomerates take over. Then the small timers are out. The dot.com industry is already dead, the I.T boom is surviving on telecoms which will reach saturation soon (3G is already dead). Global Bandwidth provision has severe limitations which will atrophy the web industry not far beyond what it is now. In short, the pie will not keep expanding for everyone (already contracting) and the big ones will keep whatever is around, and the small timers will be out of business and driving cabs.
Example is the corporate merger/acquisitions businesses which thrived in early 90s, and by later in the decade the wall-street investment bankers had to sell their BMWs. An earlier example is the Auto boom. How many are left? Same goes for the Oil boom.
You gave the example of the Lotus WP. It was precisely because Microsoft refused to share it`s OS code which market it had monopolized, that Lotus could not make its products work smoothly in Windows, and lost market share. That`s why Bill Gates is giving away his wealth. He wants to remove his guilt in acquiring all of it through meanness and greed.
Gold rushes don`t last for very long. At the outset everyone can pan the rivers and dig dirt with bare hands for Gold, till the conglomerates take over. Then the small timers are out. The dot.com industry is already dead, the I.T boom is surviving on telecoms which will reach saturation soon (3G is already dead). Global Bandwidth provision has severe limitations which will atrophy the web industry not far beyond what it is now. In short, the pie will not keep expanding for everyone (already contracting) and the big ones will keep whatever is around, and the small timers will be out of business and driving cabs.
Example is the corporate merger/acquisitions businesses which thrived in early 90s, and by later in the decade the wall-street investment bankers had to sell their BMWs. An earlier example is the Auto boom. How many are left? Same goes for the Oil boom.
You gave the example of the Lotus WP. It was precisely because Microsoft refused to share it`s OS code which market it had monopolized, that Lotus could not make its products work smoothly in Windows, and lost market share. That`s why Bill Gates is giving away his wealth. He wants to remove his guilt in acquiring all of it through meanness and greed.
#250 Posted by tahmed32 on October 11, 2006 1:47:42 am
bulleya #241 imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. your imitation of hamidm`s dotted style is......the.......sincerest....form...of...flattery..of..hamidm. :-)
PS: damn.....now...you....got....me...imitating....that...style....too!! ha!.....ha!
PS: damn.....now...you....got....me...imitating....that...style....too!! ha!.....ha!
#249 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:57:36 pm
In addition to #247, you cannot have it both ways, unless you feel that Americans have attained consciousness and now recognize that wealth and power and not hard work shapes those who have attained power...I don`t think they have reached that level of fact-based consciousness yet, they are still very much chasing the dream in popular mythology and culture.
#248 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:45:59 pm
hamid writes <<< .arn`t you amazed at what mark cuban has accomplished so far (and it ain`t over yet) ........ now, tell me, what did mills accomplish in his usleless lifetime other than publishing rubbish to torture generations of college sophomores >>>
Inspiring hundreds of thousands with his work, and a unique place for himself in the evolution of the field especially regarding the structures of power. Almost half a century after his death people still learn from him while cuban, like a cuban cigar will burn with a strong aroma for a little while and then fade away just as fast, never to be recalled or remembered except for trivial matters.
Inspiring hundreds of thousands with his work, and a unique place for himself in the evolution of the field especially regarding the structures of power. Almost half a century after his death people still learn from him while cuban, like a cuban cigar will burn with a strong aroma for a little while and then fade away just as fast, never to be recalled or remembered except for trivial matters.
#247 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:41:19 pm
GT writes <<< As far as my understanding goes I believe that Americans think that hard work and knowledge are neither necessary nor sufficient for power. Yes, with hard work, they do believe that, one gets a shot at fame, power, what have you. >>>
You can`t have it both ways, if without hard work you don`t get a shot at fame, power, wealth but only get government cheese than you cannot say that Americans think that hard work is not a necessary condition to attain wealth and power. Of course as the economy is changing and people, like those in the ghetto discovered long time back, are discovering that they stay at the same level or fall below regardless of hard work, they are adjusting their feelings. Traditionally this hard work power/wealth link has been strongly adhered to by the US public, and it still is revealed by surveys conducted regarding social welfare, most feel that ``hard work is the best way to improve your lot``.
You can`t have it both ways, if without hard work you don`t get a shot at fame, power, wealth but only get government cheese than you cannot say that Americans think that hard work is not a necessary condition to attain wealth and power. Of course as the economy is changing and people, like those in the ghetto discovered long time back, are discovering that they stay at the same level or fall below regardless of hard work, they are adjusting their feelings. Traditionally this hard work power/wealth link has been strongly adhered to by the US public, and it still is revealed by surveys conducted regarding social welfare, most feel that ``hard work is the best way to improve your lot``.
#246 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:22:50 pm
bulleya writes <<< only in america!!.............. >>>
True, like a Las Vegas Casino, few win big, (with hard work and knowledge playing no part), the vast majority lose, the powers that be (the Casino owners) regardless of the few winners, always walk away with the biggest pie. My point exactly.
True, like a Las Vegas Casino, few win big, (with hard work and knowledge playing no part), the vast majority lose, the powers that be (the Casino owners) regardless of the few winners, always walk away with the biggest pie. My point exactly.
#245 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:17:18 pm
Read <<< The Horatio Alger tales are myths >>>
as, The Horatio Alger tales are myths for the vast majority given aggregate statistics and as such don`t prove anything about this society and system.
as, The Horatio Alger tales are myths for the vast majority given aggregate statistics and as such don`t prove anything about this society and system.
#244 Posted by masadi on October 10, 2006 9:14:28 pm
GT writes <<< By your own account, you worked hard - someone noticed and helped you get a scholarship - now you are teaching - you seem to be proud of your achivement - and so more power to you too. >>>>
That is exactly the opposite of what these ``work hard and you will make it in America`` crowd says. The person who gave me a shot was neither groomed by this system nor defines it, that is why his decision was more of an exception than the rule. Most people in the US, as revealed by mobility stats, regardless of hard work and increasing productivity, stay at the same level and never progress, those that do, are a very tiny percent, do so over generations and only incrementally. The Horatio Alger tales are myths. Regarding Mills, like I said he is merely taking the assertion of Hamid 2 pack to its logical conclusion which does indeed lead to equivalence, ``ideal type`` analysis of every kind can similarly be equated. What he is simply stating is that it is prepostrous to define power in terms of knowledge, or wealth in terms of knowledge. Very simple statement, you want to pick at its molecules to discredit what he says which is quite disingenuous.
That is exactly the opposite of what these ``work hard and you will make it in America`` crowd says. The person who gave me a shot was neither groomed by this system nor defines it, that is why his decision was more of an exception than the rule. Most people in the US, as revealed by mobility stats, regardless of hard work and increasing productivity, stay at the same level and never progress, those that do, are a very tiny percent, do so over generations and only incrementally. The Horatio Alger tales are myths. Regarding Mills, like I said he is merely taking the assertion of Hamid 2 pack to its logical conclusion which does indeed lead to equivalence, ``ideal type`` analysis of every kind can similarly be equated. What he is simply stating is that it is prepostrous to define power in terms of knowledge, or wealth in terms of knowledge. Very simple statement, you want to pick at its molecules to discredit what he says which is quite disingenuous.
#243 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 7:31:54 pm
Re: # 241
romair,
``i think us foreign policy has now reached evil proportions, which is one of the reasons i left that country.`` ........... nonsense !........ if you did, you are a bigger fool than arjun makes you out to be ..........
......... every time i go to the valley i am overwhelmed - personally, as a life time day laborer working at daily wages, i don`t think i could handle the pressure (besides, i am too old) .......... however, i have a lot of admiration for the tireless men and women who work there - they are truly amazing ! ..........
romair,
``i think us foreign policy has now reached evil proportions, which is one of the reasons i left that country.`` ........... nonsense !........ if you did, you are a bigger fool than arjun makes you out to be ..........
......... every time i go to the valley i am overwhelmed - personally, as a life time day laborer working at daily wages, i don`t think i could handle the pressure (besides, i am too old) .......... however, i have a lot of admiration for the tireless men and women who work there - they are truly amazing ! ..........
#242 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 7:23:51 pm
Re: # 238
aslam,
....... one of my friends was the project director and then general manager for best cement ...... sir anwar pervez was able to do it because he had never heard of this character c. wright mills and masadi ........ and there are many others like him all over the world ......... it is always better to work hard instead of whining about the system - unless you are shameless and like government cheese .........
aslam,
....... one of my friends was the project director and then general manager for best cement ...... sir anwar pervez was able to do it because he had never heard of this character c. wright mills and masadi ........ and there are many others like him all over the world ......... it is always better to work hard instead of whining about the system - unless you are shameless and like government cheese .........
#241 Posted by bulleya on October 10, 2006 7:07:27 pm
hamidm/zeemax#.......anil is probably the best person to comment on silicon valley, as he wheels and deals with those who sit at the top of this pyramid.........however, i have had an opportunity to wheel and deal with a group one or two levels, below that........
i arrived in the usa with two semester tuition money and no future in pakistan (as an unemployed military officer, with a useless math degree)..........seven years later, i was a part of a company, in silicon valley that had around 175 employees and was sold for over $600 million.......i was employee number 75 or so.........you can do the math on how much each person was worth........
i cannot think of any other place in the world where this could have happened, other than the usa.......in fact, even in the usa, i cannot think of too many other places this could have happened, than silicon valley.........
with me, arrived around nine other or so, students from middle class karachi - all graduates of ned type universities.........one of them hit it big in cisco, through stock options, and owned a small mansion by the time he was 30.......the others struggled along......then three of them started their own companies............two out of these three designed their own chips that are used in wireless equipment.......another authored security software for wireless equipment..........one has around $70 million of funding, the other has around $10 million of funding.......the former`s company is set for a huge expected ipo......the third sold his company and now is a vp in the company that bought his, and has employees under him from israel to mountain view.....all these guys are still in their mid-30s............
most of these guys barely owned a car in pakistan........one of them was my roommate briefly, in college, when we had a broken down shack with no furniture - we use to sit on the floor to eat......at this point, half of them own luxury houses in prime silicon valley areas - a few with swimming pools.........
once again, i cannot think of any other place than silicon valley where this could have happened.........now all these guys are becoming a small group of angel investors......they look for promising ideas, pool in their money and connections and fund others.........
i suppose there is a flip side to it also.........the company that i was a part of that got sold eventually didn`t amount to much........the .com bubble burst and the buyer was left with quite a few products that were unmarketable.........the buyers probably paid over $500 million more than they should have......not to mention my options went down to a fraction of what they originally were..........however, it was a great feeling to be quite rich for a while (even on paper)...........
only in america!!..............
i think us foreign policy has now reached evil proportions, which is one of the reasons i left that country........however domestic usa, especially in the more liberal states like california still has a lot to offer...........
i arrived in the usa with two semester tuition money and no future in pakistan (as an unemployed military officer, with a useless math degree)..........seven years later, i was a part of a company, in silicon valley that had around 175 employees and was sold for over $600 million.......i was employee number 75 or so.........you can do the math on how much each person was worth........
i cannot think of any other place in the world where this could have happened, other than the usa.......in fact, even in the usa, i cannot think of too many other places this could have happened, than silicon valley.........
with me, arrived around nine other or so, students from middle class karachi - all graduates of ned type universities.........one of them hit it big in cisco, through stock options, and owned a small mansion by the time he was 30.......the others struggled along......then three of them started their own companies............two out of these three designed their own chips that are used in wireless equipment.......another authored security software for wireless equipment..........one has around $70 million of funding, the other has around $10 million of funding.......the former`s company is set for a huge expected ipo......the third sold his company and now is a vp in the company that bought his, and has employees under him from israel to mountain view.....all these guys are still in their mid-30s............
most of these guys barely owned a car in pakistan........one of them was my roommate briefly, in college, when we had a broken down shack with no furniture - we use to sit on the floor to eat......at this point, half of them own luxury houses in prime silicon valley areas - a few with swimming pools.........
once again, i cannot think of any other place than silicon valley where this could have happened.........now all these guys are becoming a small group of angel investors......they look for promising ideas, pool in their money and connections and fund others.........
i suppose there is a flip side to it also.........the company that i was a part of that got sold eventually didn`t amount to much........the .com bubble burst and the buyer was left with quite a few products that were unmarketable.........the buyers probably paid over $500 million more than they should have......not to mention my options went down to a fraction of what they originally were..........however, it was a great feeling to be quite rich for a while (even on paper)...........
only in america!!..............
i think us foreign policy has now reached evil proportions, which is one of the reasons i left that country........however domestic usa, especially in the more liberal states like california still has a lot to offer...........
#240 Posted by harimau on October 10, 2006 5:09:38 pm
Ref hamidm2 #208
[...... after many years i ran into a iranian guy who had flunked out of engineering school, then flunked out of business school and finally flunked out of sociology school to start an electronics retail business ........... i asked him how things were going and he said: `` things are going great - i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy ``]
Iranian guy selling electronics goods? Heck, I always call them rug merchants, never Iranians!
[...... after many years i ran into a iranian guy who had flunked out of engineering school, then flunked out of business school and finally flunked out of sociology school to start an electronics retail business ........... i asked him how things were going and he said: `` things are going great - i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy ``]
Iranian guy selling electronics goods? Heck, I always call them rug merchants, never Iranians!
#239 Posted by harimau on October 10, 2006 5:07:43 pm
Ref echoboom #223
[.... an intelligent man... cannot afford to be a non-muslim.]
The entire world has about 85% non-Muslims.
All useful inventions have come from non-Muslims. Such as the telegraph, telephone, television, computers, rockets, satellites, vaccines against diseases, etc.
Hopefully someone will invent a vaccine against Islam.
The only thing Muslims can teach the world would be about humping camels.
PS. You got to admit that the last line is a great pun.
[.... an intelligent man... cannot afford to be a non-muslim.]
The entire world has about 85% non-Muslims.
All useful inventions have come from non-Muslims. Such as the telegraph, telephone, television, computers, rockets, satellites, vaccines against diseases, etc.
Hopefully someone will invent a vaccine against Islam.
The only thing Muslims can teach the world would be about humping camels.
PS. You got to admit that the last line is a great pun.
#238 Posted by aslam644 on October 10, 2006 3:45:02 pm
hamid
you must have heard about sir anwar pervez a potohari from gujar khan he came to uk with £5 in his pocket worked as a bus driver in bradford, then went on to build the second biggest cash&carry group in uk the bestway group. i believe he`s also building cement plants in pakistan.
you must have heard about sir anwar pervez a potohari from gujar khan he came to uk with £5 in his pocket worked as a bus driver in bradford, then went on to build the second biggest cash&carry group in uk the bestway group. i believe he`s also building cement plants in pakistan.
#237 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 2:51:36 pm
echo,
did you notice who was in the nba finals last year ? ....... and do you know why? ..........arn`t you amazed at what mark cuban has accomplished so far (and it ain`t over yet) ........ now, tell me, what did mills accomplish in his usleless lifetime other than publishing rubbish to torture generations of college sophomores and provide material for sophomoric delusional professors at community colleges who think they are the successors to plato and einstein .......
#236 Posted by tahmed32 on October 10, 2006 2:24:08 pm
another good news for masadi. zidane never did a head butt on that italian player. that was all all a trick of the evil media. ha! ha!
this is what the media reported
this is what actually happened.
this is what the media reported
this is what actually happened.
#235 Posted by echoboom on October 10, 2006 10:35:13 am
Zeemax & Mr. Masadi:
These guys who feel so frustrated and inadequate when they veer into your arenas is that these guys are the ``practical and ``pragmatic`` types [this I am saying with all the contempt, derision, and detestation I have for such kind]. They are like the gadget users whose knowledge about science is limited to the manual & owner`s guide. If you start discussing
theoritical physics with them they will feel lost & disoriented.
There is no money in it. To them it is useless knowledge. No wonder a Bill Gates appears
to them more important than a Stephen Hawking or Linus Pauling (a man hounded by these
vultures lolling in vulgarity & vice but adorning it with the Sainthood of ``Progress``.
Majority of the people are their kind. These people are what we call masses, commoners,
avaam. The only trouble is that when some of them get some money, status, and power they get this notion in their empty heads that they are more important to society than a Chomsky, a Mills, a Hawking, a Whitman, or a Rousseau.
John Maynard Keyes said something very profound , a long time ago, that the techie types; the shopkeeper types, in short-the material movers as compared to mind-movers--[ this is my coinage] have very little clue who truly runs their life. Who makes the decision in their lives & how then they go about doing whatever they are doing--and these are the poets, the philosophers,which includes mullahs/priests.
Mr. Masadi`s only fault is that he consorts with such kind and tries to play chess with those who only excel at contact sports.
These guys who feel so frustrated and inadequate when they veer into your arenas is that these guys are the ``practical and ``pragmatic`` types [this I am saying with all the contempt, derision, and detestation I have for such kind]. They are like the gadget users whose knowledge about science is limited to the manual & owner`s guide. If you start discussing
theoritical physics with them they will feel lost & disoriented.
There is no money in it. To them it is useless knowledge. No wonder a Bill Gates appears
to them more important than a Stephen Hawking or Linus Pauling (a man hounded by these
vultures lolling in vulgarity & vice but adorning it with the Sainthood of ``Progress``.
Majority of the people are their kind. These people are what we call masses, commoners,
avaam. The only trouble is that when some of them get some money, status, and power they get this notion in their empty heads that they are more important to society than a Chomsky, a Mills, a Hawking, a Whitman, or a Rousseau.
John Maynard Keyes said something very profound , a long time ago, that the techie types; the shopkeeper types, in short-the material movers as compared to mind-movers--[ this is my coinage] have very little clue who truly runs their life. Who makes the decision in their lives & how then they go about doing whatever they are doing--and these are the poets, the philosophers,which includes mullahs/priests.
Mr. Masadi`s only fault is that he consorts with such kind and tries to play chess with those who only excel at contact sports.
#234 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 10:07:42 am
Re: # 228
zeemax,
..... i don`t know about ICQ, but as a professional powerpointologist i love ms word and excel which work seamlessly with powerpoint - i have no complaints ....... lotus, visicalc and many others were fine stand alone products in their day, but they lost out to better products ....... lotus lost out when it failed to cope with transition to 32 bit applications running on windows 95 - lotus smartsuite was a day late and a dollar short ........... but notes/domino is still vey much alive and the lotus brand is still thriving under ibm ........... most of the 4000 odd employees made out like bandits when ibm bought the company in the mid nineties ......... i am sure manzi and mitch kapor are not hurting either as venture capitalists ...........
........ and reardless of what mills says there are more important things than the internet - did you notice who was in the nba finals last year ? ....... and do you know why?
zeemax,
..... i don`t know about ICQ, but as a professional powerpointologist i love ms word and excel which work seamlessly with powerpoint - i have no complaints ....... lotus, visicalc and many others were fine stand alone products in their day, but they lost out to better products ....... lotus lost out when it failed to cope with transition to 32 bit applications running on windows 95 - lotus smartsuite was a day late and a dollar short ........... but notes/domino is still vey much alive and the lotus brand is still thriving under ibm ........... most of the 4000 odd employees made out like bandits when ibm bought the company in the mid nineties ......... i am sure manzi and mitch kapor are not hurting either as venture capitalists ...........
........ and reardless of what mills says there are more important things than the internet - did you notice who was in the nba finals last year ? ....... and do you know why?
#233 Posted by GT on October 10, 2006 9:29:11 am
Re: # 231 by zeemax
Zee:
I have no problem with commercialization. I do have a problem with monopolies (or a few oligopolists) though. And monopolies can be checked by careful and intelligent de-regulation and for certain cases by increasing regulations.
You say:
``So beware. Your freedom of internet is not going to last for long. ``
If it comes to that then I shall live with it.
Got to go ....
Zee:
I have no problem with commercialization. I do have a problem with monopolies (or a few oligopolists) though. And monopolies can be checked by careful and intelligent de-regulation and for certain cases by increasing regulations.
You say:
``So beware. Your freedom of internet is not going to last for long. ``
If it comes to that then I shall live with it.
Got to go ....
#232 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 9:15:36 am
....contd....#231
......missed that the difference between usenet and www is that to access usenet you had to pay for software but not the content. With www, the access is free but you have to pay even now, and much more later, for content.
Actually, www killed usenet and IRC for this very purpose. I don`t know if anyone gets my point.
......missed that the difference between usenet and www is that to access usenet you had to pay for software but not the content. With www, the access is free but you have to pay even now, and much more later, for content.
Actually, www killed usenet and IRC for this very purpose. I don`t know if anyone gets my point.
#231 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 9:11:50 am
#230 by GT
GT,
To see the progress of the worldwide web, you need to strart with the `usenet`. I guess few people will remember that. The entire porn industry started by stealing from usenet and guess it still does. But ... and it`s a big `but` .. Usenet isn`t free. That`s the real and still the biggest internet and you only need access software. The content is free after that.
Instant messaging started from IRC network which is also free, but now almost extinct.
The point I`m making is that the internet is NOT jut www. It is much more. But it has been taken over and commercialized, and will continue to do so. What does anyone think the .com stands for?
All the domain names reside in the US. The www belongs to US. The US conglomerates (5 or 6) can do with it whatever they want. Neither Usenet nor IRC was in anyone`s control.
So beware. Your freedom of internet is not going to last for long.
GT,
To see the progress of the worldwide web, you need to strart with the `usenet`. I guess few people will remember that. The entire porn industry started by stealing from usenet and guess it still does. But ... and it`s a big `but` .. Usenet isn`t free. That`s the real and still the biggest internet and you only need access software. The content is free after that.
Instant messaging started from IRC network which is also free, but now almost extinct.
The point I`m making is that the internet is NOT jut www. It is much more. But it has been taken over and commercialized, and will continue to do so. What does anyone think the .com stands for?
All the domain names reside in the US. The www belongs to US. The US conglomerates (5 or 6) can do with it whatever they want. Neither Usenet nor IRC was in anyone`s control.
So beware. Your freedom of internet is not going to last for long.
#230 Posted by GT on October 10, 2006 8:45:35 am
Re: # 228 by zeemax
Zee:
You say:
``As for porn, yes that will remain, but I`m not really into that. ...... But the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.``
Zee you bring up an excellent point. In what follows I base myself on the body of work done by David Levine and M. Boldrin (the latter claims to be an expert in porn). Sites put up movies and since there are no patents they are copied by other sites in a matter of weeks. Yet, and this is the point, people still make money out of their movies and the industry is thriving. Another industry, that you may be more familiar with, is finance. Financial products can be easily copied (and they are) with minor modifications and hence patents do not help. So, ask Boldrin and Levine, why should there be patents in other industries? This body of work is causing a lot of introspection amongst mainstream economists. I think patents are on their way out, at least in academia. It might take a longer time to convince regulators.
Zee:
You say:
``As for porn, yes that will remain, but I`m not really into that. ...... But the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.``
Zee you bring up an excellent point. In what follows I base myself on the body of work done by David Levine and M. Boldrin (the latter claims to be an expert in porn). Sites put up movies and since there are no patents they are copied by other sites in a matter of weeks. Yet, and this is the point, people still make money out of their movies and the industry is thriving. Another industry, that you may be more familiar with, is finance. Financial products can be easily copied (and they are) with minor modifications and hence patents do not help. So, ask Boldrin and Levine, why should there be patents in other industries? This body of work is causing a lot of introspection amongst mainstream economists. I think patents are on their way out, at least in academia. It might take a longer time to convince regulators.
#229 Posted by GT on October 10, 2006 8:27:13 am
Re: # 228 by zeemax:
Zee:
Sorry for the interruption. You write:
`` ..... the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.``
That is a pessimistic view, though one should always be wary of these monopolists. Remember the `robber barons`. A lot of their `wealth` now survive as endowments for universities etc.
``Why are these now extinct and inferior software like MS Word and MSN/Yahoo IM have taken over?``
If you are seriously into this question then you could read up on ``externalities``. Brian Arthur has written about it and his writings are simple. Essentially, markets tend to fail when there are major ``externalities``.
Zee:
Sorry for the interruption. You write:
`` ..... the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.``
That is a pessimistic view, though one should always be wary of these monopolists. Remember the `robber barons`. A lot of their `wealth` now survive as endowments for universities etc.
``Why are these now extinct and inferior software like MS Word and MSN/Yahoo IM have taken over?``
If you are seriously into this question then you could read up on ``externalities``. Brian Arthur has written about it and his writings are simple. Essentially, markets tend to fail when there are major ``externalities``.
#228 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 8:13:08 am
#226 by hamidm2
I did miss Amazon .. but I think it`ll eventually be bought out by e-Bay. It`s bigger. Big fish eats the small fish right? And e-Bay has telephony to compliment it`s shopping so Amazon can`t compete with it. Soon your green groceries will be delivered by e-Bay.
As for porn, yes that will remain, but I`m not really into that. That`s a niche business and all fringe niche businesses like casinos too will survive. But the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.
Can you kindly answer my questions re Lotus and ICQ? Why are these now extinct and inferior software like MS Word and MSN/Yahoo IM have taken over?
I did miss Amazon .. but I think it`ll eventually be bought out by e-Bay. It`s bigger. Big fish eats the small fish right? And e-Bay has telephony to compliment it`s shopping so Amazon can`t compete with it. Soon your green groceries will be delivered by e-Bay.
As for porn, yes that will remain, but I`m not really into that. That`s a niche business and all fringe niche businesses like casinos too will survive. But the `services` we need everyday, will all be monopolized.
Can you kindly answer my questions re Lotus and ICQ? Why are these now extinct and inferior software like MS Word and MSN/Yahoo IM have taken over?
#227 Posted by GT on October 10, 2006 8:11:26 am
Re: # 205 by masadi:
Asadi:
Look, Mills can assert anything he wants to. If for him a ``necessary condition`` is ``equivalence`` then I cannot do much about it. As far as my understanding goes I believe that Americans think that hard work and knowledge are neither necessary nor sufficient for power. Yes, with hard work, they do believe that, one gets a shot at fame, power, what have you. Hamid must have worked hard and now he has a good life, more power to him. He has all the right to think what he thinks. By your own account, you worked hard - someone noticed and helped you get a scholarship - now you are teaching - you seem to be proud of your achivement - and so more power to you too. Both of you are putting forth your ideas on chowk. I do not think anyone agrees with either fully, yet all may agree with either or both of you partially. This is the best that can happen in social sciences in general and chowk in particular.
On a different vein. If you like Mills, you may like Paul Baran too. The guy died very young. Give him a shot. Raghu Rajan in ``Saving Capitalism from the Capitalist`` takes a somewhat different view (he advocates less regulated markets). The guy is a prof. in Chicago and now is in the IMF. Don`t let that put you off. Give the book a shot too. It is kind of sad that economists do not read Marx anymore, though they read a lot about he supposedly said. The first 100 pages of capital Vol. 1 are gems. No one has been able to praise capitalism as Marx did. Unfortunately very few know about this.
Asadi:
Look, Mills can assert anything he wants to. If for him a ``necessary condition`` is ``equivalence`` then I cannot do much about it. As far as my understanding goes I believe that Americans think that hard work and knowledge are neither necessary nor sufficient for power. Yes, with hard work, they do believe that, one gets a shot at fame, power, what have you. Hamid must have worked hard and now he has a good life, more power to him. He has all the right to think what he thinks. By your own account, you worked hard - someone noticed and helped you get a scholarship - now you are teaching - you seem to be proud of your achivement - and so more power to you too. Both of you are putting forth your ideas on chowk. I do not think anyone agrees with either fully, yet all may agree with either or both of you partially. This is the best that can happen in social sciences in general and chowk in particular.
On a different vein. If you like Mills, you may like Paul Baran too. The guy died very young. Give him a shot. Raghu Rajan in ``Saving Capitalism from the Capitalist`` takes a somewhat different view (he advocates less regulated markets). The guy is a prof. in Chicago and now is in the IMF. Don`t let that put you off. Give the book a shot too. It is kind of sad that economists do not read Marx anymore, though they read a lot about he supposedly said. The first 100 pages of capital Vol. 1 are gems. No one has been able to praise capitalism as Marx did. Unfortunately very few know about this.
#226 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 7:52:28 am
Re: # 225
zeemax,
...... that`s the pessimistic view pushed by mills and masadi ......... things are still booming in the valley and venture capital money is still pouring in - there is no dearth of new ideas .......... in any industry consolidation has to take place and only the best of the breed survive - sometimes consolidations are reversed (as in the case of citicorp) and sometimes break-ups are reversed (as in the case of at&t) ........... and the internet is not the only thing around - there is biotechnology, nanotechnology, biometrics and things that haven`t been named yet ..........
by the way, you left off amazon, realnetworks, the jihadi networks and the hundreds of sex sites that have billions of dollars in revenue ..............
..............you should take a trip to the valley and talk to the thousands of twenty-somethings who refuse to read mills ................
zeemax,
...... that`s the pessimistic view pushed by mills and masadi ......... things are still booming in the valley and venture capital money is still pouring in - there is no dearth of new ideas .......... in any industry consolidation has to take place and only the best of the breed survive - sometimes consolidations are reversed (as in the case of citicorp) and sometimes break-ups are reversed (as in the case of at&t) ........... and the internet is not the only thing around - there is biotechnology, nanotechnology, biometrics and things that haven`t been named yet ..........
by the way, you left off amazon, realnetworks, the jihadi networks and the hundreds of sex sites that have billions of dollars in revenue ..............
..............you should take a trip to the valley and talk to the thousands of twenty-somethings who refuse to read mills ................
#225 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 7:21:49 am
#222 by hamidm2
Look hamidm2 ... it`s one thing to cheer the youtube acquisition by Google, it is quite another to think that in a few years all fresh talent will be gobbled up by monpolists, as indeed most of it has already been goobled up by just a few and I can name them on the tips of my fingers, and this is serious. It means you`ll have nowhere to go when they begin to blackmail and that day isn`t far. They`re not dishing out billions for nothing:
1) Microsoft
2) Google
3) Yahoo
4) e-Bay
5) Apple
6) That`s it!
All services you require on internet, i.e. may it be e-mail, shopping, telephony, instant messaging, free downloadable utilities & software, video, audio or even plain browsing, will be controlled by the above 5.
Do you remember the finest word-processor there ever was? It was called Lotus. MS Word still can`t touch it`s look and feel of 10 years ago. What happened to it?
The best instant messaging and indeed the very first was ICQ. What happened to it?
Wasn`t Hotmail better before it became MSN? Now it stinks. Monopolization kills ideas.
What it aims to do is to buy out competetion, and kill it.
This monopolization is occuring right in front of your eyes and you cheer it ... but later you`ll have to pay the cost.
Look hamidm2 ... it`s one thing to cheer the youtube acquisition by Google, it is quite another to think that in a few years all fresh talent will be gobbled up by monpolists, as indeed most of it has already been goobled up by just a few and I can name them on the tips of my fingers, and this is serious. It means you`ll have nowhere to go when they begin to blackmail and that day isn`t far. They`re not dishing out billions for nothing:
1) Microsoft
2) Google
3) Yahoo
4) e-Bay
5) Apple
6) That`s it!
All services you require on internet, i.e. may it be e-mail, shopping, telephony, instant messaging, free downloadable utilities & software, video, audio or even plain browsing, will be controlled by the above 5.
Do you remember the finest word-processor there ever was? It was called Lotus. MS Word still can`t touch it`s look and feel of 10 years ago. What happened to it?
The best instant messaging and indeed the very first was ICQ. What happened to it?
Wasn`t Hotmail better before it became MSN? Now it stinks. Monopolization kills ideas.
What it aims to do is to buy out competetion, and kill it.
This monopolization is occuring right in front of your eyes and you cheer it ... but later you`ll have to pay the cost.
#224 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 7:03:05 am
Re Hamidm`s observation by Echoboom ...
....the failing performances by the Persian...
Aah now I see .. sorry Hamidm .. I thought you were talking about the American Dream ... not belittling Iranians.... but should have guessed ...
....the failing performances by the Persian...
Aah now I see .. sorry Hamidm .. I thought you were talking about the American Dream ... not belittling Iranians.... but should have guessed ...
#223 Posted by echoboom on October 10, 2006 7:02:56 am
#220 by hamidm2
But piyaaray 2-number maal amreekan, who cares about your happiness in the land of bilk and money (sic)?
or are you also living in your own private La La Land?
Millions of Y-chromosomes perish before burRee mushkilsey noor-i-nazar and Deedavar is born in this garden.
You, a male, is insignifant in the Universal scheme of things....deluded under the opium of ruling the roost & running the world.
``READ! in the name of thy Lord, who created you from a single clot of blood...............``
P.S: an intelligent man like you cannot afford to be a non-muslim.
But piyaaray 2-number maal amreekan, who cares about your happiness in the land of bilk and money (sic)?
or are you also living in your own private La La Land?
Millions of Y-chromosomes perish before burRee mushkilsey noor-i-nazar and Deedavar is born in this garden.
You, a male, is insignifant in the Universal scheme of things....deluded under the opium of ruling the roost & running the world.
``READ! in the name of thy Lord, who created you from a single clot of blood...............``
P.S: an intelligent man like you cannot afford to be a non-muslim.
#222 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 7:00:17 am
how to join the power elite and other stories - today`s BIG story
A profitless Web site started by three 20-somethings after a late-night dinner party is sold for more than a billion dollars, instantly turning dozens of its employees into paper millionaires.
YouTube, the video-sharing phenomenon that is the darling of an Internet resurgence known as Web 2.0.
“If you believe it’s the future of television, it’s clearly worth $1.6 billion,” Steven A. Ballmer, Microsoft’s chief executive, said of YouTube. “If you believe something else, you could write down maybe it’s not worth much at all.”
The price tag Google paid may simply have been the cost of beating its rivals — Yahoo, Viacom and the News Corporation — to take control of the most sought-after Web site of the moment. It was also perhaps the only price that two YouTube founders, Chad Hurley, 29, and Steven Chen, 28, and their big venture capital backer, Sequoia Capital Partners, were willing to accept, given that they most likely could have continued as an independent company. A third YouTube founder, Jawed Karim, left the company to pursue an advanced degree at Stanford.
takbeer! ..... that was simply to stick to the ramadan theme
#221 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 6:53:13 am
Re: # 218
zeemax,
sigh ! ...... you missed everything ! ........it was the punch line .... that`s what happens when you read meaningless stuff by winged creatures like mills and gabriel ........ in case you missed that one : mills is the fairy and gabriel is the angel !
zeemax,
sigh ! ...... you missed everything ! ........it was the punch line .... that`s what happens when you read meaningless stuff by winged creatures like mills and gabriel ........ in case you missed that one : mills is the fairy and gabriel is the angel !
#220 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 6:48:40 am
Re: # 214
echo,
....... i would be honored to have phaja`s son as my son-in-law - his father was an honorable man who built a successful business in an area inhabited by the only honorable muslims left in pakistan ......... as long as ollie has not heard of mills, does not belong to the msa and does not put gel in his hair, i am perfectly happy ..........
echo,
....... i would be honored to have phaja`s son as my son-in-law - his father was an honorable man who built a successful business in an area inhabited by the only honorable muslims left in pakistan ......... as long as ollie has not heard of mills, does not belong to the msa and does not put gel in his hair, i am perfectly happy ..........
#219 Posted by echoboom on October 10, 2006 6:47:39 am
Zeemax:216
thanks , but I think Hamidm2 is still Art Buchwald..........and I just want to be me. No claim to name fame or blame here.
I have yet to find a humourist who can match Yousafi or Insha.
zeemax:218
Hamidm2 is right about the 2% part..It has nothing to do with math but the failing performances by the Persian...and there is Hamidm2`s punchline [ It is his George carlin`s borrowed routine]
thanks , but I think Hamidm2 is still Art Buchwald..........and I just want to be me. No claim to name fame or blame here.
I have yet to find a humourist who can match Yousafi or Insha.
zeemax:218
Hamidm2 is right about the 2% part..It has nothing to do with math but the failing performances by the Persian...and there is Hamidm2`s punchline [ It is his George carlin`s borrowed routine]
#218 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 6:41:05 am
#217 by hamidm2
zeemax, ...... no clarificaion or correction is required at all .....
HuH?
i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy `` ............. simple math .....
A $ 100 profit on initial investment of $100 equals 2%? I must be missing something here ...
What is it? Pray tell ... don`t keep it to yourself for us miserable one`s sakes.
zeemax, ...... no clarificaion or correction is required at all .....
HuH?
i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy `` ............. simple math .....
A $ 100 profit on initial investment of $100 equals 2%? I must be missing something here ...
What is it? Pray tell ... don`t keep it to yourself for us miserable one`s sakes.
#217 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 6:31:43 am
Re: # 213
zeemax,
...... no clarificaion or correction is required at all .....
zeemax,
...... no clarificaion or correction is required at all .....
#216 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 6:19:54 am
#214 by echoboom
Hahaha .. Echoboom you`re the limit. Now I crown you the Art Buchwald of Chowk instead of the honour previously held by hamidm2.
No, seriously, you should write a full episode (or a series ... even better) and put it on FP.
I shall be eternally grateful. ``Hansney sey khoon barhta hai ...``
Sincerely,
Zeemax
Hahaha .. Echoboom you`re the limit. Now I crown you the Art Buchwald of Chowk instead of the honour previously held by hamidm2.
No, seriously, you should write a full episode (or a series ... even better) and put it on FP.
I shall be eternally grateful. ``Hansney sey khoon barhta hai ...``
Sincerely,
Zeemax
#215 Posted by aslam644 on October 10, 2006 6:04:04 am
Re: # 211
hamid mian
you seem to have daughter for every occasion i`m beginning to think they are all fiction.
hamid mian
you seem to have daughter for every occasion i`m beginning to think they are all fiction.
#214 Posted by echoboom on October 10, 2006 5:36:37 am
The Power of Nightmares
The Slave2, after quaffing a few merlots with his joe2pack neighbor, belched out with satisfaction and caressed his pate (english) with one palm and his other pate(urdu) with the other simultaneously and mumbled....`` Things are really really going good, my daughter is dating now``
``Yeah...`` Joe 2pack said in a way which could be interpreted eaither as an enquiry, or explanation, a surprise or a disappointment. English language just is not capable to handle such a situation so it doesn`t have a word.
Slave2 stretched his legs as as as they could go; which meant they were touching Joe2packs toes..and he kind of tickled them..`` Just couldn`t have done it in Pindi Bhatiaan...it is not the gwhite skin I`m after..there are whiter people in our own frontier, and with blue eyes, but they are not goraas, my man, goraas! you understand goraa Joe? Can you imagine how much you are valued in my land. Our Prsident would serve you bed-tea if you`re there & here you buying me liquor...I witness there is no God but America, and Joe2pack is his messenger..``
Joe was really perplexed. No one had ever spoken to him in such highbrowed, pedantic and
scholarly manner before and he attributed it to no Slave2 but to his own merlot which ke not how much he had taken. He was thinking that it was Slave2 who had more than him...
So he brought back the subject which was more at home to him..`` So who is she dating?``
``Oh some guy guy from her prom last year...Would know more soon I hope``
``Uh Uh``
..................
and then he was told in no uncertain terms that she likes this guy whose dad through sheer hardwork has made a big name for himself in the food business.
``Must be that grandson of McDonalds, the guys who sold the chain to thay paper-cup guy``
.
..``No No Daddy, not Gary McDonald of my 9th grade...remenber the one you always called him goraa goraa McDonald when he was not around?...she chuckled
``Not him? then who?``
....Well Daddy please be not mad at me. I`ve found a real true goraa. More goraa than you can ever imagine. Now our generations would be able to goraa enough to looke like the massas & then we be slaves no more...`` she was looking not too far into the future
``So what is his name``?
.........Ollie, daddy Ollie. Ollie Bachs ....yeah that is his name.
`` But little one what is the surname``
Phajjaa, Daddy. They really really worked hard , they were really really poor but now they have this famous restaurant which is known around the world, Ollie has told me.
`` Phajja! PHAHJJA? you mean that guy from Lajore choonaa mandi--the Paaey-valaa?
Oh now I know that son Ollie ..he is no Ollie. He is Illahi Baksh Phajja; What are yopu mad are you insane are you out of your mind. Is is what I get after sending you to dance lessons
& encouraging you to go to the prom...to snare a Phajja?.... Bareen Barsaan khatan gaya... he found himself humming & despite the situation smiled at the cruel irony of fate
..........``but daddy he is the heartthrob of everyone, and he brings that real tasty meat dish to school for everyone...and EVERYONE loves his Payaas, which they think is meat-PIE``
The Slave2, after quaffing a few merlots with his joe2pack neighbor, belched out with satisfaction and caressed his pate (english) with one palm and his other pate(urdu) with the other simultaneously and mumbled....`` Things are really really going good, my daughter is dating now``
``Yeah...`` Joe 2pack said in a way which could be interpreted eaither as an enquiry, or explanation, a surprise or a disappointment. English language just is not capable to handle such a situation so it doesn`t have a word.
Slave2 stretched his legs as as as they could go; which meant they were touching Joe2packs toes..and he kind of tickled them..`` Just couldn`t have done it in Pindi Bhatiaan...it is not the gwhite skin I`m after..there are whiter people in our own frontier, and with blue eyes, but they are not goraas, my man, goraas! you understand goraa Joe? Can you imagine how much you are valued in my land. Our Prsident would serve you bed-tea if you`re there & here you buying me liquor...I witness there is no God but America, and Joe2pack is his messenger..``
Joe was really perplexed. No one had ever spoken to him in such highbrowed, pedantic and
scholarly manner before and he attributed it to no Slave2 but to his own merlot which ke not how much he had taken. He was thinking that it was Slave2 who had more than him...
So he brought back the subject which was more at home to him..`` So who is she dating?``
``Oh some guy guy from her prom last year...Would know more soon I hope``
``Uh Uh``
..................
and then he was told in no uncertain terms that she likes this guy whose dad through sheer hardwork has made a big name for himself in the food business.
``Must be that grandson of McDonalds, the guys who sold the chain to thay paper-cup guy``
.
..``No No Daddy, not Gary McDonald of my 9th grade...remenber the one you always called him goraa goraa McDonald when he was not around?...she chuckled
``Not him? then who?``
....Well Daddy please be not mad at me. I`ve found a real true goraa. More goraa than you can ever imagine. Now our generations would be able to goraa enough to looke like the massas & then we be slaves no more...`` she was looking not too far into the future
``So what is his name``?
.........Ollie, daddy Ollie. Ollie Bachs ....yeah that is his name.
`` But little one what is the surname``
Phajjaa, Daddy. They really really worked hard , they were really really poor but now they have this famous restaurant which is known around the world, Ollie has told me.
`` Phajja! PHAHJJA? you mean that guy from Lajore choonaa mandi--the Paaey-valaa?
Oh now I know that son Ollie ..he is no Ollie. He is Illahi Baksh Phajja; What are yopu mad are you insane are you out of your mind. Is is what I get after sending you to dance lessons
& encouraging you to go to the prom...to snare a Phajja?.... Bareen Barsaan khatan gaya... he found himself humming & despite the situation smiled at the cruel irony of fate
..........``but daddy he is the heartthrob of everyone, and he brings that real tasty meat dish to school for everyone...and EVERYONE loves his Payaas, which they think is meat-PIE``
#213 Posted by zeemax on October 10, 2006 5:30:53 am
#208 by hamidm2
the power of knowledge:...........i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy `` ............. simple math .....
Hmmm .... Do you thinka a clarification, or a correction is required here? Or it wouldn`t be simple math I guess ... maybe magic.
the power of knowledge:...........i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy `` ............. simple math .....
Hmmm .... Do you thinka a clarification, or a correction is required here? Or it wouldn`t be simple math I guess ... maybe magic.
#212 Posted by Dash_Dot on October 10, 2006 5:05:15 am
Is Mills related to A.A.Milne of Winnie-the-pooh fame?
the philosophies of both seem so similar.....
the philosophies of both seem so similar.....
#211 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 4:56:18 am
how to join the power elite and other stories
.......... but sometimes you don`t make it - so what !
....... last year i was visiting a friend in the bay area who is working on his sixth start-up company and even though he has come close a couple of times, still no cuban cigar ........
.......... so as we sat on the deck of his modest home in palo alto smoking arturo fuentes from the dominican republic, i asked him if it had been worth working a hundred hours a week for the last 20 years ............ he looked at me like .... well like i was gay or something .... and said, ``what do you mean, it has been a great ride and it ain`t over yet - there are still people in this town who are willing to lend me a couple of million bucks ......... so what if we are not smoking real cubans and we have a view of someone`s untidy backyard instead of the ocean - if i had to do it all over again, i wouldn`t change a thing except not fall in love with an idea for too long ....... ideas are like women`` ........ i have no idea what he meant by that ............ he is an ivy league graduate but has never heard of wright mills .........
#210 Posted by Dash_Dot on October 10, 2006 4:42:58 am
Re: # 209
If you would allow me to interrupt your monologues/dialogues and multilogues.....
mills would say, according to masadi, that the system has brainwashed your daughter into an unthinking robot. If only she had the right (and correct) knowledge, she would know her situation is hopeless. Mark of YouTube is a small gift to the macacas of this world, to tell them work hard you too can be rewarded......its the brainwashing thing at play here...
If you would allow me to interrupt your monologues/dialogues and multilogues.....
mills would say, according to masadi, that the system has brainwashed your daughter into an unthinking robot. If only she had the right (and correct) knowledge, she would know her situation is hopeless. Mark of YouTube is a small gift to the macacas of this world, to tell them work hard you too can be rewarded......its the brainwashing thing at play here...
#209 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 4:30:37 am
how to join the power elite and other stories
....... three mornings a week my 13 yr old gets up before six to be at school by 6:30 for her student council meeting; two evenings a week she gets home at eight thirty after dance classses and stays up past midnight to finish her homework; on saturdays she tutors a fifth grader and sundays is tennis lessons .......... when i asked her to slow down she looked at me like .... well , like i was crazy or something and said `` did mark zukerberg slow down ???? `` ............... i said, ``but..... but...... mills says that you shouldn`t work hard because the system is stacked against you``.......... i know she wanted to say `fuck mills`, but it being ramadan and all that, she simply said, `` mark is barely 20 and yahoo is going to give him a billion dollars - mills is so lame and gay !``
p.s.......... i too am perplexed with this usage of `gay` ...... last elections my other daughter, who is six years older, was actively campaigning to legalize gay mariages and thinks bush is a homophobic devil ......... it must be a generational thing .........
#208 Posted by hamidm2 on October 10, 2006 4:22:01 am
the power of knowledge:
...... after many years i ran into a iranian guy who had flunked out of engineering school, then flunked out of business school and finally flunked out of sociology school to start an electronics retail business ........... i asked him how things were going and he said: `` things are going great - i buy something for a 100 dollar, sell it for 200, make my 2% and i am happy `` ............. all you need to succeed in this country is simple math and a little hard work .........
#207 Posted by echoboom on October 10, 2006 4:15:15 am
Fiza Asr:
Just top keep the discussion relevant to your article.
Let us see what is happenning in the ``WEST`` during Ramadhan
First Published 2006-10-10, Last Updated 2006-10-10 09:10:30
A sociable atmosphere
Ramadan on the rise among France’s Muslims
Islamic holy month is encompassing more than just devout,
is especially prevalent among young adults.
By Amer Ouali - PARIS
Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting currently underway, is being increasingly observed by France`s sizeable Muslim community, experts and media here said.
The trend is encompassing more than just the devout, and is especially prevalent among young adults, they noted.
According to a recent survey in a Catholic weekly, La Vie, 88 percent of all Muslim adults in the country fasted for Ramadan -- and 94 percent of those aged under 30 did.
France has Europe`s largest Muslim community, estimated at between four and six million. The total population of the country is 63 million, most of whom are considered Roman Catholic -- though, by one study, more than 40 percent declare themselves atheist.
While Ramadan has found greater favour among French Muslims, the other precepts of Islam are less respected.
According to La Vie`s survey, 56 percent of those questioned said they did not pray five times a day, and only four percent had made a piligrimage to Mecca.
A French anthropoligist who has written several books on Islam, Malek Chebel, said the surge in interest in Ramadan ``is a phenomenon we`ve been seeing for 15 or so years.
``Essentially, it`s a phenomenon of cultural identification -- French Muslims have the feeling of belonging to all other Muslims around the world,`` he said.
The two forces pushing the effect along, Chebel said, were Islamic proselytism and the political rhetoric in France that made non-observing Muslims feel guilty and less likely to signal their stance among the more faithful.
Another explanation, offered by an atheist and Communist Algerian writer who did not wish to be named, was simple nostalgia for the home countries of Muslim immigrants.
``It`s pure nostalgia. My wife says I`m crazy, but I don`t care,`` he said, referring to his non-Muslim French spouse.
Abderahmane Dahmane, the president of the Council of Democratic Muslims in France, one of several Muslim organisations in the country, said he had seen Ramadan observance increase markedly from the end of the 1980s on.
``It`s become a month of identification for all a community,`` he said, adding that it also underlined the failure of France`s attempt to assimilate immigrants by trying to make them adhere to its secular principles of nationality.
In the suburbs of Paris, the importance of Ramadan for young Muslims was easily seen -- but also for a few non-Muslims of ethnic French background.
``I do it sometimes to show my support for my Muslim friends,`` said Lorie, a schoolgirl in the eastern suburb of Montreuil.
Chebel said the physical rigour of observing daily fasting for a month also made Ramadan a sort of macho competition among boys and young men.
``It gives them a certain status and allows them to exclude people from their group who don`t fast,`` he said.
Just top keep the discussion relevant to your article.
Let us see what is happenning in the ``WEST`` during Ramadhan
First Published 2006-10-10, Last Updated 2006-10-10 09:10:30
A sociable atmosphere
Ramadan on the rise among France’s Muslims
Islamic holy month is encompassing more than just devout,
is especially prevalent among young adults.
By Amer Ouali - PARIS
Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting currently underway, is being increasingly observed by France`s sizeable Muslim community, experts and media here said.
The trend is encompassing more than just the devout, and is especially prevalent among young adults, they noted.
According to a recent survey in a Catholic weekly, La Vie, 88 percent of all Muslim adults in the country fasted for Ramadan -- and 94 percent of those aged under 30 did.
France has Europe`s largest Muslim community, estimated at between four and six million. The total population of the country is 63 million, most of whom are considered Roman Catholic -- though, by one study, more than 40 percent declare themselves atheist.
While Ramadan has found greater favour among French Muslims, the other precepts of Islam are less respected.
According to La Vie`s survey, 56 percent of those questioned said they did not pray five times a day, and only four percent had made a piligrimage to Mecca.
A French anthropoligist who has written several books on Islam, Malek Chebel, said the surge in interest in Ramadan ``is a phenomenon we`ve been seeing for 15 or so years.
``Essentially, it`s a phenomenon of cultural identification -- French Muslims have the feeling of belonging to all other Muslims around the world,`` he said.
The two forces pushing the effect along, Chebel said, were Islamic proselytism and the political rhetoric in France that made non-observing Muslims feel guilty and less likely to signal their stance among the more faithful.
Another explanation, offered by an atheist and Communist Algerian writer who did not wish to be named, was simple nostalgia for the home countries of Muslim immigrants.
``It`s pure nostalgia. My wife says I`m crazy, but I don`t care,`` he said, referring to his non-Muslim French spouse.
Abderahmane Dahmane, the president of the Council of Democratic Muslims in France, one of several Muslim organisations in the country, said he had seen Ramadan observance increase markedly from the end of the 1980s on.
``It`s become a month of identification for all a community,`` he said, adding that it also underlined the failure of France`s attempt to assimilate immigrants by trying to make them adhere to its secular principles of nationality.
In the suburbs of Paris, the importance of Ramadan for young Muslims was easily seen -- but also for a few non-Muslims of ethnic French background.
``I do it sometimes to show my support for my Muslim friends,`` said Lorie, a schoolgirl in the eastern suburb of Montreuil.
Chebel said the physical rigour of observing daily fasting for a month also made Ramadan a sort of macho competition among boys and young men.
``It gives them a certain status and allows them to exclude people from their group who don`t fast,`` he said.
#206 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 11:45:31 pm
Anil writes to Hamid <<< Mian sahib, please allow me to treat you, your wife and lovely daughters to the best Indian dinner on San Franciso Bay, any time. Just let me know when at : anilkapuria@yahoo.com. I promise to be there with my daughter, the honor is entirely mine >>>
Hmmm, a mating ritual or a business deal, between hamid and anil, don`t know but you better give him some code (and supply a coolie) or tahmed might show up where he doesn`t belong, like the US in Iraq- they are kleptomanics you know, grabbing things that were never offered to them.
Hmmm, a mating ritual or a business deal, between hamid and anil, don`t know but you better give him some code (and supply a coolie) or tahmed might show up where he doesn`t belong, like the US in Iraq- they are kleptomanics you know, grabbing things that were never offered to them.
#205 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 9:21:41 pm
In addition to #203, Mills is merely taking the argument/belief of Hamid 2 pack to its logical conclusion, when he says, ``If you work hard, you will make it``, that implies that those who have ``made it the most`` i.e. the elite, have worked the hardest. I don`t see any exaggeration involved in that translation by Mills of Hamid 2 pack.
#204 Posted by anil on October 9, 2006 9:21:30 pm
Re: # 200
Hamidm Mian:
You called you mian for the first time. I spent my childhood where calling mian to a Kashmiri Brahmin was an insult.
Honestly, I felt proud when you called me.
Mian sahib, please allow me to treat you, your wife and lovely daughters to the best Indian dinner on San Franciso Bay, any time. Just let me know when at : anilkapuria@yahoo.com. I promise to be there with my daughter, the honor is entirely mine.
In the mean time, let Allah, God, Bhagwan and Tahmad Sahib, and of course government cheese and Marx, take care of Massaddi Mian and his ilk. Life is too short for us mortals.
Anil
Hamidm Mian:
You called you mian for the first time. I spent my childhood where calling mian to a Kashmiri Brahmin was an insult.
Honestly, I felt proud when you called me.
Mian sahib, please allow me to treat you, your wife and lovely daughters to the best Indian dinner on San Franciso Bay, any time. Just let me know when at : anilkapuria@yahoo.com. I promise to be there with my daughter, the honor is entirely mine.
In the mean time, let Allah, God, Bhagwan and Tahmad Sahib, and of course government cheese and Marx, take care of Massaddi Mian and his ilk. Life is too short for us mortals.
Anil
#203 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 8:52:07 pm
GT writes <<< I read the sentence differently. Even if your reading of Mills is right, then Joe six pack is saying that knowledge is necessary for power. But since there is no claim to sufficiency, it does not imply equivalence. And Mills is saying that Joe thinks of these two things as equivalent since he uses the word ``is``, i.e =. >>>
Hamid two pack, according to Mills, is not implying sufficiency regarding knowledge translating into power but he is implying necessity of those with power to have knowledge, and not just simple knowledge but the ``most`` knowledge. I think that is why he translates it the way he does, power= knowledge, since the purest form of knowledge is found with those in power, the leaders. In this sense he is right on. Read the context of that quote,
They assume also that knowledge always pays off in such ways, or surely ought to, and that the test of genuine knowledge is just such pay-offs. The powerful and the wealthy must be the men of most knowledge, otherwise how could they be where they are?
Regarding your <<< As far as the family and economics in the US and our region is concerned, let us disagree for now. We can talk about it later.>>> comment, what you are doing when you talk about people in our parts of the world having more concern for wealth than people in the US, is looking at the surface ``superficial`` symbolism and not how the society is organized. Of course people who do not see that much wealth will have more concern for every penny, and will be awe struck at its value while those for whom it is relatively more easy come easy go might not be so vocally awed by it, the blase` attitude sets in but this does not mean that their lives are not centered around it and much more so than those in our parts of the world.
Then you write <<< Regarding ``virtues``, how does Mills know that people are molding themselves on someone else`s desire? >>>
For that you have to study bureaucracy, which has that as an inherent quality, and the bureaucratic society.
Hamid two pack, according to Mills, is not implying sufficiency regarding knowledge translating into power but he is implying necessity of those with power to have knowledge, and not just simple knowledge but the ``most`` knowledge. I think that is why he translates it the way he does, power= knowledge, since the purest form of knowledge is found with those in power, the leaders. In this sense he is right on. Read the context of that quote,
They assume also that knowledge always pays off in such ways, or surely ought to, and that the test of genuine knowledge is just such pay-offs. The powerful and the wealthy must be the men of most knowledge, otherwise how could they be where they are?
Regarding your <<< As far as the family and economics in the US and our region is concerned, let us disagree for now. We can talk about it later.>>> comment, what you are doing when you talk about people in our parts of the world having more concern for wealth than people in the US, is looking at the surface ``superficial`` symbolism and not how the society is organized. Of course people who do not see that much wealth will have more concern for every penny, and will be awe struck at its value while those for whom it is relatively more easy come easy go might not be so vocally awed by it, the blase` attitude sets in but this does not mean that their lives are not centered around it and much more so than those in our parts of the world.
Then you write <<< Regarding ``virtues``, how does Mills know that people are molding themselves on someone else`s desire? >>>
For that you have to study bureaucracy, which has that as an inherent quality, and the bureaucratic society.
#202 Posted by GT on October 9, 2006 6:40:29 pm
Re: # 199 by masadi
``If knowledge (or ability or hard work) is held to be a necessary causation factor in reaching power, then reaching power IMPLIES knowledge and not knowledge implies power, that is what Mills said power= knowledge and not knowledge = power, same with wealth. He is translating what Hamid 2 pack holds to be the case.``
1. (Minor point) I think you mean implication when you write =.
2. I read the sentence differently. Even if your reading of Mills is right, then Joe six pack is saying that knowledge is necessary for power. But since there is no claim to sufficiency, it does not imply equivalence. And Mills is saying that Joe thinks of these two things as equivalent since he uses the word ``is``, i.e =. This is not correct and Mills is playing around with language. In simple words, Americans may think that powerful people are smart but will not in general say that all smart people are powerful. Give that much to the Americans. Yes, once in a while a smart Alec may ask a pompous teacher ``Why are you poor if you are so smart?`` ... but this is simple leg pulling.
3. As far as the family and economics in the US and our region is concerned, let us disagree for now. We can talk about it later.
4. Regarding ``virtues``, how does Mills know that people are molding themselves on someone else`s desire? Why can`t it be their own desire? I find such value judgements dangerous.
Hamid:
The contributions of Mills not only to sociology but also to economics is widely accepted. He talks a lot of sense, but like most social scientists (including me) is prone to exagerations. And by the way, I thought you were only afraid of the mullahs. Now I find that you are scared of gays too :-)
``If knowledge (or ability or hard work) is held to be a necessary causation factor in reaching power, then reaching power IMPLIES knowledge and not knowledge implies power, that is what Mills said power= knowledge and not knowledge = power, same with wealth. He is translating what Hamid 2 pack holds to be the case.``
1. (Minor point) I think you mean implication when you write =.
2. I read the sentence differently. Even if your reading of Mills is right, then Joe six pack is saying that knowledge is necessary for power. But since there is no claim to sufficiency, it does not imply equivalence. And Mills is saying that Joe thinks of these two things as equivalent since he uses the word ``is``, i.e =. This is not correct and Mills is playing around with language. In simple words, Americans may think that powerful people are smart but will not in general say that all smart people are powerful. Give that much to the Americans. Yes, once in a while a smart Alec may ask a pompous teacher ``Why are you poor if you are so smart?`` ... but this is simple leg pulling.
3. As far as the family and economics in the US and our region is concerned, let us disagree for now. We can talk about it later.
4. Regarding ``virtues``, how does Mills know that people are molding themselves on someone else`s desire? Why can`t it be their own desire? I find such value judgements dangerous.
Hamid:
The contributions of Mills not only to sociology but also to economics is widely accepted. He talks a lot of sense, but like most social scientists (including me) is prone to exagerations. And by the way, I thought you were only afraid of the mullahs. Now I find that you are scared of gays too :-)
#201 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 5:41:02 pm
GT in #197, <<< ``Under such conditions of success, there is no virtue in starting out poor and becoming rich.``
Why not? Why should one adhere to Mill`s, Asadi`s or Hamid`s definition of ``virtue``? >>>
Actually if you read the entire section carefully, what he means is that when you mold yourself based on someone else`s desires, in this case the corporate economy and its associated higher immorality, there is no virtue regardless of where you started. You are not a ``self made`` man but a ``self used`` and abused man.
Why not? Why should one adhere to Mill`s, Asadi`s or Hamid`s definition of ``virtue``? >>>
Actually if you read the entire section carefully, what he means is that when you mold yourself based on someone else`s desires, in this case the corporate economy and its associated higher immorality, there is no virtue regardless of where you started. You are not a ``self made`` man but a ``self used`` and abused man.
#200 Posted by hamidm2 on October 9, 2006 5:40:31 pm
Re: # 196
masadi/gt,
i have no idea who this guy wright mills is, but both i and my thirteen year old daughter agree that he meets the criteria of a `loser`.......... as a matter of fact my daughter would say, `he is so gay !``..............
..... i will tell you why as soon as i have some time...... but i think you know the answer .... if henry ford and bill gates had been his disciples we would still be riding around in horse buggies and using an abacus ........... he is exactly the kind of person i want to stay away from my children ........ la holay wala quwat !
masadi/gt,
i have no idea who this guy wright mills is, but both i and my thirteen year old daughter agree that he meets the criteria of a `loser`.......... as a matter of fact my daughter would say, `he is so gay !``..............
..... i will tell you why as soon as i have some time...... but i think you know the answer .... if henry ford and bill gates had been his disciples we would still be riding around in horse buggies and using an abacus ........... he is exactly the kind of person i want to stay away from my children ........ la holay wala quwat !
#199 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 5:39:08 pm
GT in #198 << ``Those who succeed to power must be smart`` means ``success in power implies knowledge``. People who say so are no way saying that ``knowledge implies success in power`` and therefore that ``knowledge`` and ``power`` are the same. This is Mill`s exaggerated assertion made on behalf of Joe two packs. >>>
Here is the complete part of the quote by Mills
<< But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.
The prevalence of such assumptions does reveal something that is true: that ordinary men, even today, are prone to explain and to justify power and wealth in terms of knowledge or ability. >>
If knowledge (or ability or hard work) is held to be a necessary causation factor in reaching power, then reaching power IMPLIES knowledge and not knowledge implies power, that is what Mills said power= knowledge and not knowledge = power, same with wealth. He is translating what Hamid 2 pack holds to be the case.
Then you write
<<< Having said that I agree in general, my own experience is that people usually do not give as much importance to ``wealth`` in the US as they do in our part of the world >>>
That is certainly not the case, the popular culture as well as life here is centered around the economic to the sacrifice of everything else including family, this is not so in our parts of the world where the economy has not reached a stage it has here and people are dependent more on the family than on the economy.
Here is the complete part of the quote by Mills
<< But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.
The prevalence of such assumptions does reveal something that is true: that ordinary men, even today, are prone to explain and to justify power and wealth in terms of knowledge or ability. >>
If knowledge (or ability or hard work) is held to be a necessary causation factor in reaching power, then reaching power IMPLIES knowledge and not knowledge implies power, that is what Mills said power= knowledge and not knowledge = power, same with wealth. He is translating what Hamid 2 pack holds to be the case.
Then you write
<<< Having said that I agree in general, my own experience is that people usually do not give as much importance to ``wealth`` in the US as they do in our part of the world >>>
That is certainly not the case, the popular culture as well as life here is centered around the economic to the sacrifice of everything else including family, this is not so in our parts of the world where the economy has not reached a stage it has here and people are dependent more on the family than on the economy.
#198 Posted by GT on October 9, 2006 5:12:25 pm
Re: # 196 by masadi:
Asadi:
On this part I am mostly in agreement. However, given your penchant for logic I am a bit surprised that you have overlooked the following:
``But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.``
``Those who succeed to power must be smart`` means ``success in power implies knowledge``. People who say so are no way saying that ``knowledge implies success in power`` and therefore that ``knowledge`` and ``power`` are the same. This is Mill`s exaggerated assertion made on behalf of Joe two packs. The next statement has a similar flaw.
Having said that I agree in general, my own experience is that people usually do not give as much importance to ``wealth`` in the US as they do in our part of the world. On a trivial note, and just to emphasize my point, Jane two packs will not hesitate in throwing Bill Gates out of a bar in SF were he to smoke there.
Asadi:
On this part I am mostly in agreement. However, given your penchant for logic I am a bit surprised that you have overlooked the following:
``But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.``
``Those who succeed to power must be smart`` means ``success in power implies knowledge``. People who say so are no way saying that ``knowledge implies success in power`` and therefore that ``knowledge`` and ``power`` are the same. This is Mill`s exaggerated assertion made on behalf of Joe two packs. The next statement has a similar flaw.
Having said that I agree in general, my own experience is that people usually do not give as much importance to ``wealth`` in the US as they do in our part of the world. On a trivial note, and just to emphasize my point, Jane two packs will not hesitate in throwing Bill Gates out of a bar in SF were he to smoke there.
#197 Posted by GT on October 9, 2006 3:28:06 pm
Re: # 195 by masadi:
``Under such conditions of success, there is no virtue in starting out poor and becoming rich.``
Why not? Why should one adhere to Mill`s, Asadi`s or Hamid`s definition of ``virtue``? I for one will ahere to my own definition of ``virtue``.
``Only where the ways of becoming rich are such as to require virtue or to lead to virtue does personal enrichment imply virtue.``
Right, and given one`s definition of ``virtue``, some amongst the many American ways of becomming rich could indeed be ``virtuous``.
``In a system of co-optation from above, whether you began rich or poor seems less relevant in revealing what kind of man you are when you have arrived than in revealing the principles of those in charge of selecting the ones who succeed.``
Yes, a subset of principles need to be aligned between what you call the ``co-opters`` and the ``co-opted``. And that is enough to rise in the US hierarchy (unlike say in Chile, China, India or Iran where a lot more need to be aligned {this is my personal belief}). Also, and because of this, these ``co-opters`` need not have the same ``principles``. In other words, a person need not be co-opted by the unanimous decision of the co-opters. Hence, whether you begin rich or poor could indeed be relevant.
Yes the US is lousy in comparison to Utopia. And I hear Americans, like Chomsky, cribbing about it all the time. And it is precisely because of this that America is what it is.
``Under such conditions of success, there is no virtue in starting out poor and becoming rich.``
Why not? Why should one adhere to Mill`s, Asadi`s or Hamid`s definition of ``virtue``? I for one will ahere to my own definition of ``virtue``.
``Only where the ways of becoming rich are such as to require virtue or to lead to virtue does personal enrichment imply virtue.``
Right, and given one`s definition of ``virtue``, some amongst the many American ways of becomming rich could indeed be ``virtuous``.
``In a system of co-optation from above, whether you began rich or poor seems less relevant in revealing what kind of man you are when you have arrived than in revealing the principles of those in charge of selecting the ones who succeed.``
Yes, a subset of principles need to be aligned between what you call the ``co-opters`` and the ``co-opted``. And that is enough to rise in the US hierarchy (unlike say in Chile, China, India or Iran where a lot more need to be aligned {this is my personal belief}). Also, and because of this, these ``co-opters`` need not have the same ``principles``. In other words, a person need not be co-opted by the unanimous decision of the co-opters. Hence, whether you begin rich or poor could indeed be relevant.
Yes the US is lousy in comparison to Utopia. And I hear Americans, like Chomsky, cribbing about it all the time. And it is precisely because of this that America is what it is.
#196 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 2:57:06 pm
A few more words of wisdom that is related to our earlier discussions
``By the middle of the twentieth century, the American elite have become an entirely different breed of men from those who could on any reasonable grounds be considered a cultural elite, or even for that matter cultivated men of sensibility. Knowledge and power are not truly united inside the ruling circles; and when men of knowledge do come in contact with the circles of powerful men, they come not as peers but as hired men. The elite of power, wealth, and celebrity do not have even a passing acquaintance with the elite of culture, knowledge and sensibility; they are not in touch with them-although the ostentatious fringes of the two worlds sometimes overlap in the world of the celebrity.
Most men are encouraged to assume that, in general, the most powerful and the wealthiest are also the most knowledgeable or, as they might say, `the smartest.` Such ideas are propped up by many little slogans about those who `teach because they can`t do,` and about `if you`re so smart, why aren`t you rich?` But all that such wisecracks mean is that those who use them assume that power and wealth are sovereign values for all men and especially for men `who are smart.` They assume also that knowledge always pays off in such ways, or surely ought to, and that the test of genuine knowledge is just such pay-offs. The powerful and the wealthy must be the men of most knowledge, otherwise how could they be where they are? But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.
The prevalence of such assumptions does reveal something that is true: that ordinary men, even today, are prone to explain and to justify power and wealth in terms of knowledge or ability. Such assumptions also reveal something of what has happened to the kind of experience that knowledge has come to be. Knowledge is no longer widely felt as an ideal; it is seen as an instrument. In a society of power and wealth, knowledge is valued as an instrument of power and wealth, and also, of course, as an ornament in conversation.``
(C. Wright Mills, The Power Elite, 1956)
``By the middle of the twentieth century, the American elite have become an entirely different breed of men from those who could on any reasonable grounds be considered a cultural elite, or even for that matter cultivated men of sensibility. Knowledge and power are not truly united inside the ruling circles; and when men of knowledge do come in contact with the circles of powerful men, they come not as peers but as hired men. The elite of power, wealth, and celebrity do not have even a passing acquaintance with the elite of culture, knowledge and sensibility; they are not in touch with them-although the ostentatious fringes of the two worlds sometimes overlap in the world of the celebrity.
Most men are encouraged to assume that, in general, the most powerful and the wealthiest are also the most knowledgeable or, as they might say, `the smartest.` Such ideas are propped up by many little slogans about those who `teach because they can`t do,` and about `if you`re so smart, why aren`t you rich?` But all that such wisecracks mean is that those who use them assume that power and wealth are sovereign values for all men and especially for men `who are smart.` They assume also that knowledge always pays off in such ways, or surely ought to, and that the test of genuine knowledge is just such pay-offs. The powerful and the wealthy must be the men of most knowledge, otherwise how could they be where they are? But to say that those who succeed to power must be `smart,` is to say that power is knowledge. To say that those who succeed to wealth must be smart, is to say that wealth is knowledge.
The prevalence of such assumptions does reveal something that is true: that ordinary men, even today, are prone to explain and to justify power and wealth in terms of knowledge or ability. Such assumptions also reveal something of what has happened to the kind of experience that knowledge has come to be. Knowledge is no longer widely felt as an ideal; it is seen as an instrument. In a society of power and wealth, knowledge is valued as an instrument of power and wealth, and also, of course, as an ornament in conversation.``
(C. Wright Mills, The Power Elite, 1956)
#195 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 2:35:48 pm
Note these words of this man of vision:
``There is still one old American value that has not markedly declined: the value of money and of the things money can buy-these, even in inflated times, seem as solid and enduring as stainless steel. `I`ve been rich and I`ve been poor,` Sophie Tucker has said, `and believe me, rich is best.` As many other values are weakened, the question for Americans becomes not Is there anything that money, used with intelligence, will not buy?` but, `How many of the things that money will not buy are valued and desired more than what money will buy?` Money is the one unambiguous criterion of success, and such success is still the sovereign American value.
Whenever the standards of the moneyed life prevail, the man with money, no matter how he got it, will eventually be respected. A million dollars, it is said, covers a multitude of sins. It is not only that men want money; it is that their very standards are pecuniary. In a society in which the money-maker has had no serious rival for repute and honor, the word `practical` comes to mean useful for private gain, and `common sense,` the sense to get ahead financially. The pursuit of the moneyed life is the commanding value, in relation to which the influence of other values has declined, so men easily become morally ruthless in the pursuit of easy money and fast estate-building.
A great deal of corruption is simply a part of the old effort to get rich and then to become richer. But today the context in which the old drive must operate has changed. When both economic and political institutions were small and scattered-as in the simpler models of classical economics and Jeffersonian democracy-no man had it in his power to bestow or to receive great favors. But when political institutions and economic opportunities are at once concentrated and linked, then public office can be used for private gain.
.....It is the proud claim of the higher circles in America that their members are entirely self-made. ,b>That is their self-image and their well-publicized myth. Popular proof of this is based on anecdotes its scholarly proof is supposed to rest upon statistical rituals whereby it is shown that varying proportions of the men at the top are sons of men of lower rank. We have already seen the proportions of given elite circles composed of the men who have risen (and they are very low). But what is more important than the proportions of the sons of wage workers among these higher circles is the criteria of admission to them, and the question of who applies these criteria. We cannot from upward mobility infer higher merit. Even if the rough figures that now generally hold were reversed, and 90 per cent of the elite were sons of wage workers-but the criteria of co-optation by the elite remained what they now are-we could not from that mobility necessarily infer merit. Only if the criteria of the top positions were meritorious, and only if they were self-applied, as in a purely entrepreneurial manner, could we smuggle merit into such statistics-from any statistics-of mobility. The idea that the self-made man is somehow `good` and that the family-made man is not good makes moral sense only when the career is independent, when one is on one`s own as an entrepreneur. It would also make sense in a strict bureaucracy where examinations control advancement. It makes little sense in the system of corporate co-optation.
There is, in psychological fact, no such thing as a self-made man. No man makes himself, least of all the members of the American elite. In a world of corporate hierarchies, men are selected by those above them in the hierarchy in accordance with whatever criteria they use. In connection with the corporations of America, we have seen the current criteria. Men shape themselves to fit them, and are thus made by the criteria, the social premiums that prevail. If there is no such thing as a self-made man, there is such a thing as a self-used man, and there are many such men among the American elite.
Under such conditions of success, there is no virtue in starting out poor and becoming rich. Only where the ways of becoming rich are such as to require virtue or to lead to virtue does personal enrichment imply virtue. In a system of co-optation from above, whether you began rich or poor seems less relevant in revealing what kind of man you are when you have arrived than in revealing the principles of those in charge of selecting the ones who succeed.``
(C. Wright Mills, The Power Elite, 1956)
``There is still one old American value that has not markedly declined: the value of money and of the things money can buy-these, even in inflated times, seem as solid and enduring as stainless steel. `I`ve been rich and I`ve been poor,` Sophie Tucker has said, `and believe me, rich is best.` As many other values are weakened, the question for Americans becomes not Is there anything that money, used with intelligence, will not buy?` but, `How many of the things that money will not buy are valued and desired more than what money will buy?` Money is the one unambiguous criterion of success, and such success is still the sovereign American value.
Whenever the standards of the moneyed life prevail, the man with money, no matter how he got it, will eventually be respected. A million dollars, it is said, covers a multitude of sins. It is not only that men want money; it is that their very standards are pecuniary. In a society in which the money-maker has had no serious rival for repute and honor, the word `practical` comes to mean useful for private gain, and `common sense,` the sense to get ahead financially. The pursuit of the moneyed life is the commanding value, in relation to which the influence of other values has declined, so men easily become morally ruthless in the pursuit of easy money and fast estate-building.
A great deal of corruption is simply a part of the old effort to get rich and then to become richer. But today the context in which the old drive must operate has changed. When both economic and political institutions were small and scattered-as in the simpler models of classical economics and Jeffersonian democracy-no man had it in his power to bestow or to receive great favors. But when political institutions and economic opportunities are at once concentrated and linked, then public office can be used for private gain.
.....It is the proud claim of the higher circles in America that their members are entirely self-made. ,b>That is their self-image and their well-publicized myth. Popular proof of this is based on anecdotes its scholarly proof is supposed to rest upon statistical rituals whereby it is shown that varying proportions of the men at the top are sons of men of lower rank. We have already seen the proportions of given elite circles composed of the men who have risen (and they are very low). But what is more important than the proportions of the sons of wage workers among these higher circles is the criteria of admission to them, and the question of who applies these criteria. We cannot from upward mobility infer higher merit. Even if the rough figures that now generally hold were reversed, and 90 per cent of the elite were sons of wage workers-but the criteria of co-optation by the elite remained what they now are-we could not from that mobility necessarily infer merit. Only if the criteria of the top positions were meritorious, and only if they were self-applied, as in a purely entrepreneurial manner, could we smuggle merit into such statistics-from any statistics-of mobility. The idea that the self-made man is somehow `good` and that the family-made man is not good makes moral sense only when the career is independent, when one is on one`s own as an entrepreneur. It would also make sense in a strict bureaucracy where examinations control advancement. It makes little sense in the system of corporate co-optation.
There is, in psychological fact, no such thing as a self-made man. No man makes himself, least of all the members of the American elite. In a world of corporate hierarchies, men are selected by those above them in the hierarchy in accordance with whatever criteria they use. In connection with the corporations of America, we have seen the current criteria. Men shape themselves to fit them, and are thus made by the criteria, the social premiums that prevail. If there is no such thing as a self-made man, there is such a thing as a self-used man, and there are many such men among the American elite.
Under such conditions of success, there is no virtue in starting out poor and becoming rich. Only where the ways of becoming rich are such as to require virtue or to lead to virtue does personal enrichment imply virtue. In a system of co-optation from above, whether you began rich or poor seems less relevant in revealing what kind of man you are when you have arrived than in revealing the principles of those in charge of selecting the ones who succeed.``
(C. Wright Mills, The Power Elite, 1956)
#194 Posted by Behram1 on October 9, 2006 1:52:44 pm
Dear All:
My friend was asking me if I saw on Dateline, Friday, October 6: About six (6) pedophilies hindoo code coolies were caught near Silicon Valley. These shameless creatures are going to be exposed.
Any comment from the railroad squatters?
Respectfully submitted,
#193 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on October 9, 2006 1:48:46 pm
BJkumar #190 {``What happened? I thought you liked the Hamid!
Patience, my dear! Remember again the Versey! ``}
BJ,
I have always liked Hamidumdum Sahib. Sometimes, I just have to make sure that he doesn`t become so gora that we lose him for desidom. I mean he is right about arguing against fanaticism, but he has to be careful not to come across like a redneck. Like, there is a slight difference between ``God Bless America`` and ``USA! USA! USA!``
Patience, my dear! Remember again the Versey! ``}
BJ,
I have always liked Hamidumdum Sahib. Sometimes, I just have to make sure that he doesn`t become so gora that we lose him for desidom. I mean he is right about arguing against fanaticism, but he has to be careful not to come across like a redneck. Like, there is a slight difference between ``God Bless America`` and ``USA! USA! USA!``
#192 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2006 1:16:51 pm
#191 thanks. That list makes good sense. Compare Bush`s performance (or even the priorities he emphasizes) against the list, and I think he would get an F in many items.
I dont know where UK performance today stands in against this list - but looks like the labor party is going strong even after several years of labor government.
I dont know where UK performance today stands in against this list - but looks like the labor party is going strong even after several years of labor government.
#191 Posted by aslam644 on October 9, 2006 1:00:59 pm
Re: # 189
tahmed
bill clinton recently spoke at labour party conference, i think he and blair have some sort of personal friendship, he spoke for about 40 mins in which he paid glowing tributes to blair and labour party. what my understanding of the third way is.
(1)eqaulity of opportunity
(2) good public services, schools, hospitals, social care etc.
(3) capitalist economy with a decent wage, which labour has increased to $10 an hour minimum.
(4) high taxes for high earners to pay for public services.
(5) substancial aid increase to third world to give them a decent standard of living.
(6) looking after the environment, alternative energy investment, etc.
this is my understanding of the third way.
tahmed
bill clinton recently spoke at labour party conference, i think he and blair have some sort of personal friendship, he spoke for about 40 mins in which he paid glowing tributes to blair and labour party. what my understanding of the third way is.
(1)eqaulity of opportunity
(2) good public services, schools, hospitals, social care etc.
(3) capitalist economy with a decent wage, which labour has increased to $10 an hour minimum.
(4) high taxes for high earners to pay for public services.
(5) substancial aid increase to third world to give them a decent standard of living.
(6) looking after the environment, alternative energy investment, etc.
this is my understanding of the third way.
#190 Posted by bjkumar on October 9, 2006 12:31:41 pm
#187 Salim,
[your unabashed desire to be the crack in the Cable Guy`s ass.]
What happened? I thought you liked the Hamid!
Patience, my dear! Remember again the Versey!
NO CUSS WORDS!
#189 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2006 12:31:05 pm
#188 I think both you and hamidm are partly right and partly wrong.
Hamidm is right insofar as UK was indeed ``on the dole`` and in the 1960`s took from Turkey the unenviable title of the ``sick man of europe`` (Turkey by then was pretty much the dead man of europe after spending over a century as the sick man of europe). It rebounded after Thatcher took over and introduced some incentives to work through privatization of government corporations. The north sea oil discovery also helped, but the major revitalization was i believe this re-introduction of incentives to work.
Back then, i recall reading a magazine article on the ``sick man`` (UK) which concluded that if people refuse to work, there is nothing you can do about the economy. Thatcher correctly diagnosed the problem to be the lack of incentives to work resulting from nationalization of industries and other practices.
You are right to the extent that today UK is out of the the ``sick list`` ... but no thanks to labor. You say that clinton was an admirer of labor`s third way - could you explain what you mean by this? as far as I know, clinton was in fact a pragmatic man more than anything else - and his landmark contribution to the US economy was his reform of the social welfare system in the US which created incentives to work by limiting the amount of time someone could get welfare checks. This is a move towards ``capitalism`` and away from ``socialism``. Today, ten years or so after the landmark changes introduced by Clinton, the program is generally considered to have had a number of beneficial outcomes.
Hamidm is right insofar as UK was indeed ``on the dole`` and in the 1960`s took from Turkey the unenviable title of the ``sick man of europe`` (Turkey by then was pretty much the dead man of europe after spending over a century as the sick man of europe). It rebounded after Thatcher took over and introduced some incentives to work through privatization of government corporations. The north sea oil discovery also helped, but the major revitalization was i believe this re-introduction of incentives to work.
Back then, i recall reading a magazine article on the ``sick man`` (UK) which concluded that if people refuse to work, there is nothing you can do about the economy. Thatcher correctly diagnosed the problem to be the lack of incentives to work resulting from nationalization of industries and other practices.
You are right to the extent that today UK is out of the the ``sick list`` ... but no thanks to labor. You say that clinton was an admirer of labor`s third way - could you explain what you mean by this? as far as I know, clinton was in fact a pragmatic man more than anything else - and his landmark contribution to the US economy was his reform of the social welfare system in the US which created incentives to work by limiting the amount of time someone could get welfare checks. This is a move towards ``capitalism`` and away from ``socialism``. Today, ten years or so after the landmark changes introduced by Clinton, the program is generally considered to have had a number of beneficial outcomes.
#188 Posted by aslam644 on October 9, 2006 12:15:26 pm
#184 by hamidm2 on October 9, 2006 6:31am PT
hamid mian
there is much to be said of people`s republic of britain,according to the economist, social mobility is a bit more flexible in uk than us, recently bill clinton said he was a great admirer of labour`s third way. what ever that means.
hamid mian
there is much to be said of people`s republic of britain,according to the economist, social mobility is a bit more flexible in uk than us, recently bill clinton said he was a great admirer of labour`s third way. what ever that means.
#187 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on October 9, 2006 11:13:17 am
hamidumdum2 #158 {``it his his constant bitching about the system that is grating ........ he an unrepentant islamofascist who will pee in the pot that he eats in and then turn around and bite the hand that fed him, before blowing himself up !........... the man is a disgrace to all immigrants of any hue and color and sets a bad example for little children who don`t want to do their homework because they think the school system is rigged against them ........... and now he wants to jump on al sharpton`s bandwagon even though his forefathers sold al`s grandpa into slavery in the first place ! ``}
Hamidum Sahib,
Whew!
I can imagine you capable of assuming many characteristics, but becoming a true redneck is not one of them. Your shamless use of Dubya`s ill-conceived term for terrorist mullahs, your xenophobic response to Mr. Masadi`s right of self-expression, and your trivialization of pedophilia are all explicitly displayed to betray your unabashed desire to be the crack in the Cable Guy`s ass. If, based on his lack of patriotism, Masadi`s forefathers sold Al Sharpton`s grandpa into slavery, then I am convinced that your ancestors built the Statue of Liberty. Please stop being so jingoistic - kaaley rang pe ziada gori zaban jajti nahin he.
Hamidum Sahib,
Whew!
I can imagine you capable of assuming many characteristics, but becoming a true redneck is not one of them. Your shamless use of Dubya`s ill-conceived term for terrorist mullahs, your xenophobic response to Mr. Masadi`s right of self-expression, and your trivialization of pedophilia are all explicitly displayed to betray your unabashed desire to be the crack in the Cable Guy`s ass. If, based on his lack of patriotism, Masadi`s forefathers sold Al Sharpton`s grandpa into slavery, then I am convinced that your ancestors built the Statue of Liberty. Please stop being so jingoistic - kaaley rang pe ziada gori zaban jajti nahin he.
#186 Posted by GT on October 9, 2006 8:28:53 am
Asadi writes about Krugman`s concern about intergenerational movements in income levels. Lack of good data had prevented good measurements of these correlations. Hence, previous studies were prone to biased estimates (due to measurement errors and such). Recent work on the PSID data set has surprised economists. It now seems that intergenarational movements out of povery (in the US) is much less than what it was thought to be earlier. Of course these results are not accepted accross the board as there are problems with the PSID data set also. But these problems are much less severe than those afflicting earlier data sets.
In general, most of the dynamics out of poverty is captured by (poor) students becomming rich later on in their lives.
#185 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2006 7:07:12 am
echoboom: I get it - you being a man worship gora arab gods, and present gora arab women to Pakistani women to worship as godesses. Also, would you care to present some of the paindoo style abusive posts you normally write on chowk to add to the inspiration?
#184 Posted by hamidm2 on October 9, 2006 6:31:47 am
Re: # 177
aslam mian,
...... in the us we also have the cable guy, the lawn guy, the tree man, the critter control guy, the pest control guy, the deck washer, the code coolie, and the roofing guy - since the time of adam smith and henry ford we have perfected the science of division of labor ......
...........of course there are some who don`t want to do anything and want to live on the `dole` (a bad habit imported from the people`s republic of britain) ........ these are the same people who instituted the practice of zakat during this holy month so that they could get free dates and samosas .......
aslam mian,
...... in the us we also have the cable guy, the lawn guy, the tree man, the critter control guy, the pest control guy, the deck washer, the code coolie, and the roofing guy - since the time of adam smith and henry ford we have perfected the science of division of labor ......
...........of course there are some who don`t want to do anything and want to live on the `dole` (a bad habit imported from the people`s republic of britain) ........ these are the same people who instituted the practice of zakat during this holy month so that they could get free dates and samosas .......
#183 Posted by hamidm2 on October 9, 2006 6:21:41 am
Re: # 161
hp,
``Expressing opinions is a fundamental right and I appreciate the US more because the country provides me an opportunity to express my opinions freely and without any fear. ``
...... now i am stumped ! ...... but, but (sputter..... sputter) masadi is corrupting the younger generation - he is more dangerous than mark foley ............
...... and besides, ramadan makes me very angry because they want to lock up during this holy month ..........
hp,
``Expressing opinions is a fundamental right and I appreciate the US more because the country provides me an opportunity to express my opinions freely and without any fear. ``
...... now i am stumped ! ...... but, but (sputter..... sputter) masadi is corrupting the younger generation - he is more dangerous than mark foley ............
...... and besides, ramadan makes me very angry because they want to lock up during this holy month ..........
#182 Posted by echoboom on October 9, 2006 3:46:34 am
#172 by zeemax
Thanks a lot Ghaznavi!
That was one master stroke and you demolished the somnath.
I have been enriched by the info. you provided.
P.S:@ afsaana sunanay kaa mood naheeN bUn raha. Bhoola naheeN hooN.
Thanks a lot Ghaznavi!
That was one master stroke and you demolished the somnath.
I have been enriched by the info. you provided.
P.S:@ afsaana sunanay kaa mood naheeN bUn raha. Bhoola naheeN hooN.
#181 Posted by bjkumar on October 9, 2006 3:45:17 am
#180 Boomer
Either the lady in the picture has a real SLOW metabolism or she was cheating during the Ramadan.
#180 Posted by echoboom on October 9, 2006 3:39:32 am
Getting back on track.
Fiza Asr:
Here is an inspiring & uplifting story about the FIRST Ramadhan of a new Muslim.
WASHINGTON —May be few born Muslims remember their first Ramadan. But for new Muslims, the first Ramadan is always to be remembered as one of the major steps towards strengthening their newly found faith.
Islamonline.net met several American reverts to share the story of their first Ramadan, their feelings of fasting for the first time, the challenges they faced from their families and workplace, and the support of the Muslim Community.
``I found so much peace during my fast and took interest in reading books on Islam during this time,`` Kamillah, who embraced Islam 30 years ago, recalled.
She started fasting Ramadan even before reverting and accepted Islam on the 10th day of the same holy month.
``The fast was very difficult for me because it was very hot and going without water the whole day was the hardest part of the fast.``.........................................MORE>>>
http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-10/08/02.shtml
Fiza Asr:
Here is an inspiring & uplifting story about the FIRST Ramadhan of a new Muslim.
US Reverts Remember First Ramadan
Abderrazak Mrabet, IOL Correspondent
Penny`s Ramadan has been made
easy thanks to the understanding
of her boss and coworkers.
WASHINGTON —May be few born Muslims remember their first Ramadan. But for new Muslims, the first Ramadan is always to be remembered as one of the major steps towards strengthening their newly found faith.
Islamonline.net met several American reverts to share the story of their first Ramadan, their feelings of fasting for the first time, the challenges they faced from their families and workplace, and the support of the Muslim Community.
``I found so much peace during my fast and took interest in reading books on Islam during this time,`` Kamillah, who embraced Islam 30 years ago, recalled.
She started fasting Ramadan even before reverting and accepted Islam on the 10th day of the same holy month.
``The fast was very difficult for me because it was very hot and going without water the whole day was the hardest part of the fast.``.........................................MORE>>>
http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-10/08/02.shtml
#179 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 3:30:50 am
Re #177, Hamid invented that job category to show his ``whiteness`` per Zeemax, who answered your question in one of the earlier posts.
#178 Posted by Humsab on October 9, 2006 3:01:40 am
Asadi Sahib
Your ideology seems to be a deadly combination of Islam and communism. Ek Karela upar neem charha.
Don`t you think you should start this reverse revolution in your country of origin rather then where you are residing? May be if the model becomes highly successful then other countries may ask for it and adopt it willingly. You see spread of revolution.
Regards
P.S. Sir, before you start using your favourite words for me , let me make it clear that I don`t live in western country and am not rich person.
Your ideology seems to be a deadly combination of Islam and communism. Ek Karela upar neem charha.
Don`t you think you should start this reverse revolution in your country of origin rather then where you are residing? May be if the model becomes highly successful then other countries may ask for it and adopt it willingly. You see spread of revolution.
Regards
P.S. Sir, before you start using your favourite words for me , let me make it clear that I don`t live in western country and am not rich person.
#177 Posted by aslam644 on October 9, 2006 2:33:12 am
masadi
i keep reading this on chowk alot ``sprinkler guy`` is this a new status symbol of those who made it in US. i know at one time of day in UK the ultimate status symbol in UK was having a butler.
i keep reading this on chowk alot ``sprinkler guy`` is this a new status symbol of those who made it in US. i know at one time of day in UK the ultimate status symbol in UK was having a butler.
#176 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 2:15:42 am
ranjit writes <<< Your main problem is that your expectations are too high. The US economy or system is not perfect. It is not heaven. There are imperfections, concentration of wealth and exploitation. It is just that the US system is way better than any other place >>>
Or it might be that your expectations are too low and with those low expectations, you and the people with similar mindsets are accepting the misery of the vast majority of humanity as long as they themselves can ``get by``- not only is that very selfish, it shows ignorance of the direction the world is headed. Ever since the New Deal which rescued this miserable system-like I said, long before the SU went under the US went under- these elite have tried to undo it and society has become more polarized in terms of wealth and life chances, the flattening that is occurring is occurring in the Middle Classes that get squeezed into the new working class, with a tiny elite commanding all the wealth of society, as it is they control more than the rest of the 99% combined, the bottom 40 have zero or negative net worth- these are HUGE numbers, they are no joke. When you say America is ``better``, that sentence is meaningless because there is no other place at the present time that is at the helm of a world system- a Neo Colonial world system. No other place that has so much wealth has it so poorly distributed in terms of basic needs, we have already gone through this comparing poverty levels with GDP.
Then he writes <<< Compare that to Pakistan where unless you are some army person or some feudal`s son, you cannot even get promoted beyond entry level. The imperfections there are so vast that most people would give their right arm to get out of Pakistan or India to come here. >>>
Why do you think conditions like this exist in those parts of the world? Why is it that India was just as well developed, its people much more cultured than the backward West that was groveling in its dung, just a few hundred years back and now like the rest of the `colored` world is in the backwaters? If you can answer that question maybe you will understand why those conditions exist. This petty corruption that exists all over Asia and Africa, which in the most part have retained the bureaucratic setup of colonial times, is because of these ``Anglo Saxon`` overlords that developed this bureaucracy to keep the people in check by use of local elite, a similar phenomenon is seen in the US ghettos. Let me quote something for you from Massey and Denton`s standard work on the US ghetto:
“The rise of the ghetto, more than anything else, brought about the eclipse of the old elite of integrationist blacks who dominated African American affairs in the northern cities before 1910…the (profit) interest of these “New Negroes” economic and political leaders were tied to the ghetto and its concerns.” (Massey & Denton 1993:40)
In fact the similarities are so stark that they cannot be overlooked. So you want to fit in or do you want to dismantle the ghetto, you cannot do both. You resist the system and at the very least they will smell your opposition and block your advancement. I choose the path of resistance, a path to life for the world and for future generations.
Tahmed writes <<< the problem i have is with the pretentious, insulting, and dishonest stuff he writes that stands out even by chowk`s lax standards. >>>
The only problem that you have with me is that I expose the barbarism of your false gods, the US elite, nothing in that is dishonest or you would have happily pointed it out. Everytime you have brought your dishonestly fake arguments (like presenting the example of Queens to show there is no discrimination against Blacks when national data shows three times the poverty level etc) they have been dismantled. You have no argument except Ad hominem, and then have the audacity of talking about `insults`. You`re a hypocrite, plain and simple and HP is slowly recognizing your true nature, which is very good.
Or it might be that your expectations are too low and with those low expectations, you and the people with similar mindsets are accepting the misery of the vast majority of humanity as long as they themselves can ``get by``- not only is that very selfish, it shows ignorance of the direction the world is headed. Ever since the New Deal which rescued this miserable system-like I said, long before the SU went under the US went under- these elite have tried to undo it and society has become more polarized in terms of wealth and life chances, the flattening that is occurring is occurring in the Middle Classes that get squeezed into the new working class, with a tiny elite commanding all the wealth of society, as it is they control more than the rest of the 99% combined, the bottom 40 have zero or negative net worth- these are HUGE numbers, they are no joke. When you say America is ``better``, that sentence is meaningless because there is no other place at the present time that is at the helm of a world system- a Neo Colonial world system. No other place that has so much wealth has it so poorly distributed in terms of basic needs, we have already gone through this comparing poverty levels with GDP.
Then he writes <<< Compare that to Pakistan where unless you are some army person or some feudal`s son, you cannot even get promoted beyond entry level. The imperfections there are so vast that most people would give their right arm to get out of Pakistan or India to come here. >>>
Why do you think conditions like this exist in those parts of the world? Why is it that India was just as well developed, its people much more cultured than the backward West that was groveling in its dung, just a few hundred years back and now like the rest of the `colored` world is in the backwaters? If you can answer that question maybe you will understand why those conditions exist. This petty corruption that exists all over Asia and Africa, which in the most part have retained the bureaucratic setup of colonial times, is because of these ``Anglo Saxon`` overlords that developed this bureaucracy to keep the people in check by use of local elite, a similar phenomenon is seen in the US ghettos. Let me quote something for you from Massey and Denton`s standard work on the US ghetto:
“The rise of the ghetto, more than anything else, brought about the eclipse of the old elite of integrationist blacks who dominated African American affairs in the northern cities before 1910…the (profit) interest of these “New Negroes” economic and political leaders were tied to the ghetto and its concerns.” (Massey & Denton 1993:40)
In fact the similarities are so stark that they cannot be overlooked. So you want to fit in or do you want to dismantle the ghetto, you cannot do both. You resist the system and at the very least they will smell your opposition and block your advancement. I choose the path of resistance, a path to life for the world and for future generations.
Tahmed writes <<< the problem i have is with the pretentious, insulting, and dishonest stuff he writes that stands out even by chowk`s lax standards. >>>
The only problem that you have with me is that I expose the barbarism of your false gods, the US elite, nothing in that is dishonest or you would have happily pointed it out. Everytime you have brought your dishonestly fake arguments (like presenting the example of Queens to show there is no discrimination against Blacks when national data shows three times the poverty level etc) they have been dismantled. You have no argument except Ad hominem, and then have the audacity of talking about `insults`. You`re a hypocrite, plain and simple and HP is slowly recognizing your true nature, which is very good.
#175 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2006 12:39:32 am
ranjit: i read your response on the ``musharraf spilling the beans`` board that is off the front page now. thanks for explaining your resentment of behram (i.e. on account of his ``savage treatment`` of indians on chowk). while behram can no doubt speak in his defense, in all fairness you should see that his reaction is in response to gratuitous insults to pakistanis by indians. also, you go too far when you write that his being a member of the parsee community means he is expected to behave differently than other pakistanis (more specifically, that he owes a certain level of deference to hindus in india). i think you need to reflect on the attitude towards minorities and this indicates on your part
while we are on the subject of resentments - let me also add that i found your expressions of joy at the earthquake victims plight last year to be offensive. i dont ask for explanations, but suggest you include this as well in the self-reflection. For myself, on this first grim anniversary of that tragedy, i hereby let go of my resentment at that post you wrote about the earthquake victims. :-)
I will also add that i think (based on the posts you have written since then) you are intelligent and honest enough for self-reflection and improvement and hope you will read the above in a positive light.
while we are on the subject of resentments - let me also add that i found your expressions of joy at the earthquake victims plight last year to be offensive. i dont ask for explanations, but suggest you include this as well in the self-reflection. For myself, on this first grim anniversary of that tragedy, i hereby let go of my resentment at that post you wrote about the earthquake victims. :-)
I will also add that i think (based on the posts you have written since then) you are intelligent and honest enough for self-reflection and improvement and hope you will read the above in a positive light.
#174 Posted by Ranjit on October 9, 2006 12:05:03 am
Re:zeemax#172
Who know what is the exact number? Anyway, check this link out....
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEN108A.html
It mentions the issue of racism in Israeli society targeted at the Sephardim who are a majority as compared to the Ashkenazi who are the European jews and a minority of the population.
Anyway, my position is that I support a secular society while you support an Islamic one, whatever that means. Maybe you can define an Islamic society for us. Is Pakistan Islamic? Is Iran Islamic? Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Who know what is the exact number? Anyway, check this link out....
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEN108A.html
It mentions the issue of racism in Israeli society targeted at the Sephardim who are a majority as compared to the Ashkenazi who are the European jews and a minority of the population.
Anyway, my position is that I support a secular society while you support an Islamic one, whatever that means. Maybe you can define an Islamic society for us. Is Pakistan Islamic? Is Iran Islamic? Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
#173 Posted by tahmed32 on October 9, 2006 12:00:03 am
hp: i second what hamidm writes about masadi. it is not his holding two jobs that i have a problem with - i am all for hard work. the problem i have is with the pretentious, insulting, and dishonest stuff he writes that stands out even by chowk`s lax standards.
#172 Posted by zeemax on October 8, 2006 11:55:22 pm
#170 by ranjit
Yeah I know what it says ... except that jewfaq.org is WRONG. Why did you ignore my assertion that actually Mizrachim are just 2.0 million out of 7.0 million in Israel?
Here, do the following:
Easy Instructions: Open www.wikipedia.org and type ``Mizrachim``. Then come back.
Yeah I know what it says ... except that jewfaq.org is WRONG. Why did you ignore my assertion that actually Mizrachim are just 2.0 million out of 7.0 million in Israel?
Here, do the following:
Easy Instructions: Open www.wikipedia.org and type ``Mizrachim``. Then come back.
#171 Posted by zeemax on October 8, 2006 11:50:43 pm
Anyway ... so hinooods ... what do you think about the DPRK firecracker? Is your master shivering now?
#170 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 11:49:31 pm
Re:zeemax#168
Stop jumping up and down like a macaca. Just read your own post.
It says - ``Sephardic Jews are often subdivided into Sephardim (from Spain and Portugal) and Mizrachim (from the Northern Africa and the Middle East) ... In Israel, a little more than half of all Jews are Mizrachim``.
What does this mean? Little more than half of all jews are Mizrachim i.e. from North Africa and Middle East. So that means Mizrachims are a majority, kapish? I am not even counting the spanish and portugese there.
Anyway, it is futile to argue with a macaca_mullah like you.
Stop jumping up and down like a macaca. Just read your own post.
It says - ``Sephardic Jews are often subdivided into Sephardim (from Spain and Portugal) and Mizrachim (from the Northern Africa and the Middle East) ... In Israel, a little more than half of all Jews are Mizrachim``.
What does this mean? Little more than half of all jews are Mizrachim i.e. from North Africa and Middle East. So that means Mizrachims are a majority, kapish? I am not even counting the spanish and portugese there.
Anyway, it is futile to argue with a macaca_mullah like you.
#169 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 11:41:03 pm
Re:masadi#167
[..There is no hard and fast ``economic`` rule that says that ceos should make several hundred times what a worker makes, there is no ``supply and demand`` explanation for that, it is because of power and privilage and a skewed extremely concentrated economy....]
Your main problem is that your expectations are too high. The US economy or system is not perfect. It is not heaven. There are imperfections, concentration of wealth and exploitation. It is just that the US system is way better than any other place. Life is relative, masadi. If the US was not there, the code coolies would starve in India looking for a government job, trying to get money for a bribe so that they can get a clerical job. With the US around, millions within India and those coming to the US have at least some shot to make a life for themselves. Once they come here, they get a fairly good chance to reach upper middle class and most accomplish it.
The illigeal immigrants from Mexico or other places continue in sweat shops their whole lives. But anyone with decent skill sets is able to move up the rung. That is because the US system is fairly flat and the class system kicks in only at the very highest levels. Compare that to Pakistan where unless you are some army person or some feudal`s son, you cannot even get promoted beyond entry level. The imperfections there are so vast that most people would give their right arm to get out of Pakistan or India to come here.
[..Forget about what matters to human beings and how they can live a decent life, worry about what you can whore in the marketplace.....]
Very idealistic thoughts. Reminds me of Guru Dutt and his movies in India like Pyaasa and Kaagaz ke Phool - ``Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai?`` Masadi, I understand your sentiments but this is the real world. We all wish we had high paying jobs with no stress where we could pursue intellectual/cultural pursuits in perfect equality. Par kya kare, paapi pet ka sawal hai!! We can either all renounce life and become monks, commit suicide, turn into jihadis or we can make the best of what is there on this planet.
[..There is no hard and fast ``economic`` rule that says that ceos should make several hundred times what a worker makes, there is no ``supply and demand`` explanation for that, it is because of power and privilage and a skewed extremely concentrated economy....]
Your main problem is that your expectations are too high. The US economy or system is not perfect. It is not heaven. There are imperfections, concentration of wealth and exploitation. It is just that the US system is way better than any other place. Life is relative, masadi. If the US was not there, the code coolies would starve in India looking for a government job, trying to get money for a bribe so that they can get a clerical job. With the US around, millions within India and those coming to the US have at least some shot to make a life for themselves. Once they come here, they get a fairly good chance to reach upper middle class and most accomplish it.
The illigeal immigrants from Mexico or other places continue in sweat shops their whole lives. But anyone with decent skill sets is able to move up the rung. That is because the US system is fairly flat and the class system kicks in only at the very highest levels. Compare that to Pakistan where unless you are some army person or some feudal`s son, you cannot even get promoted beyond entry level. The imperfections there are so vast that most people would give their right arm to get out of Pakistan or India to come here.
[..Forget about what matters to human beings and how they can live a decent life, worry about what you can whore in the marketplace.....]
Very idealistic thoughts. Reminds me of Guru Dutt and his movies in India like Pyaasa and Kaagaz ke Phool - ``Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye to kya hai?`` Masadi, I understand your sentiments but this is the real world. We all wish we had high paying jobs with no stress where we could pursue intellectual/cultural pursuits in perfect equality. Par kya kare, paapi pet ka sawal hai!! We can either all renounce life and become monks, commit suicide, turn into jihadis or we can make the best of what is there on this planet.
#168 Posted by zeemax on October 8, 2006 11:38:01 pm
# 148 Bjkumar re #146 Ranjit,
Before you start a macaca dance with moron_macaca, can you ask him why he ran and hid after I refuted his ridiculous claim on the Kashmir board that Middle-Eastern Jews are a mojority in Israel?
For ready reference:
#191 by zeemax re #183 moronic_macaca:
in response to zeemax #170: [...You mean these are Syrian jews/palestinian jews etc .. not European jews! ....Source please ...]
He says:
....the following link that tells u that sephardic jews are a majority in Israel.
http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm
Hmmm ... hell of an authentic source in JewFaq.org titled `Judaism 101`, but anyway it says:
``Sephardic Jews are often subdivided into Sephardim (from Spain and Portugal) and Mizrachim (from the Northern Africa and the Middle East) ... In Israel, a little more than half of all Jews are Mizrachim``.
Remove Spanish and Portuguese and you`re left with Mizrachim, who total 2.0 million out of total Israeli May 2006 est. of over 7.0 million.
Majority? Even with this malicious description which includes `Middle-Eastern Jews` within `Sephardic`?
However, at the same time Wikipedia says:
A Sephardi is a Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) , including the descendants of those subject to expulsion from Spain by order of the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella (as codified in the Alhambra decree of 1492), or from Portugal by order of King Manuel I in 1497.
So what our friend the macaca is doing is to count all those jews kicked out of Spain and Portugal as `Arabs` after end of their `freedom & liberty` after Muslim rule . But even then, this `majority` contention is simply moronic. But nice try.
Happy googling macaca. You might find another jewfaq.org to argue further.
Before you start a macaca dance with moron_macaca, can you ask him why he ran and hid after I refuted his ridiculous claim on the Kashmir board that Middle-Eastern Jews are a mojority in Israel?
For ready reference:
#191 by zeemax re #183 moronic_macaca:
in response to zeemax #170: [...You mean these are Syrian jews/palestinian jews etc .. not European jews! ....Source please ...]
He says:
....the following link that tells u that sephardic jews are a majority in Israel.
http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm
Hmmm ... hell of an authentic source in JewFaq.org titled `Judaism 101`, but anyway it says:
``Sephardic Jews are often subdivided into Sephardim (from Spain and Portugal) and Mizrachim (from the Northern Africa and the Middle East) ... In Israel, a little more than half of all Jews are Mizrachim``.
Remove Spanish and Portuguese and you`re left with Mizrachim, who total 2.0 million out of total Israeli May 2006 est. of over 7.0 million.
Majority? Even with this malicious description which includes `Middle-Eastern Jews` within `Sephardic`?
However, at the same time Wikipedia says:
A Sephardi is a Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) , including the descendants of those subject to expulsion from Spain by order of the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella (as codified in the Alhambra decree of 1492), or from Portugal by order of King Manuel I in 1497.
So what our friend the macaca is doing is to count all those jews kicked out of Spain and Portugal as `Arabs` after end of their `freedom & liberty` after Muslim rule . But even then, this `majority` contention is simply moronic. But nice try.
Happy googling macaca. You might find another jewfaq.org to argue further.
#167 Posted by masadi on October 8, 2006 11:12:43 pm
ranjit writes <<< Masadi, employment has nothing to do with human feelings of anyone. It is pure economics, supply and demand >>>
Now where did my post say that employment in the US has anything to do with human feelings? Little wonder that code coolies cant write a decent paragraph and then parade around touting their ``six figure salaries``. There is no hard and fast ``economic`` rule that says that ceos should make several hundred times what a worker makes, there is no ``supply and demand`` explanation for that, it is because of power and privilage and a skewed extremely concentrated economy, not the widely scattered perfectly competitive situation that you ignorants hold up while touting ``supply and demand``.
Then he writes <<< So why is the US different from other countries? Because US is the only country where profit is significantly above all other consideration like race, religion, ethnicity etc. My personal experience and the experience of millions of immigrants suggest that in this country, if you have the skill sets, the system gives you opportunities >>>
Your experience might suggest that, just like the experience of Hamid`s ``sprinkler guy``, but the experience of millions of immigrants, the vast majority of which toil in back breaking work, doubling up, living in animal like conditions certainly does not bear that out. The aggregate statistics broken down by race and class and gender CERTAINLY don`t bear that out. What bears that out is fake Horatio Alger myths and happy tales of people from the gutters of our parts of the world who have seen wealth for the first time and their saliva hasn`t stopped drooling, they cannot look deeper than that. You are a poster child among them.
Then he writes <<< But we can sure pick a skill set and get into the game here. If the game stops, we pick another skill and so on >>>
Of course this is how the powers that be dumb down this society and keep its power. Forget about what matters to human beings and how they can live a decent life, worry about what you can whore in the marketplace based on the demands of those in power, soon you have a mass society of cheerful morons who can`t think worth a fart but command six figure incomes. I`d rather be free, live as a human being, than whore myself in the market for a few $$.
Now where did my post say that employment in the US has anything to do with human feelings? Little wonder that code coolies cant write a decent paragraph and then parade around touting their ``six figure salaries``. There is no hard and fast ``economic`` rule that says that ceos should make several hundred times what a worker makes, there is no ``supply and demand`` explanation for that, it is because of power and privilage and a skewed extremely concentrated economy, not the widely scattered perfectly competitive situation that you ignorants hold up while touting ``supply and demand``.
Then he writes <<< So why is the US different from other countries? Because US is the only country where profit is significantly above all other consideration like race, religion, ethnicity etc. My personal experience and the experience of millions of immigrants suggest that in this country, if you have the skill sets, the system gives you opportunities >>>
Your experience might suggest that, just like the experience of Hamid`s ``sprinkler guy``, but the experience of millions of immigrants, the vast majority of which toil in back breaking work, doubling up, living in animal like conditions certainly does not bear that out. The aggregate statistics broken down by race and class and gender CERTAINLY don`t bear that out. What bears that out is fake Horatio Alger myths and happy tales of people from the gutters of our parts of the world who have seen wealth for the first time and their saliva hasn`t stopped drooling, they cannot look deeper than that. You are a poster child among them.
Then he writes <<< But we can sure pick a skill set and get into the game here. If the game stops, we pick another skill and so on >>>
Of course this is how the powers that be dumb down this society and keep its power. Forget about what matters to human beings and how they can live a decent life, worry about what you can whore in the marketplace based on the demands of those in power, soon you have a mass society of cheerful morons who can`t think worth a fart but command six figure incomes. I`d rather be free, live as a human being, than whore myself in the market for a few $$.
#166 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 10:53:55 pm
Re:masadi#154
[...Once your ``market`` cannot exact the surplus from the code coolies, that you are so proud of, they will be discarded as cockroaches, their employment has nothing to do with their thinking or reasoning ability or the human feeling of the Americans towards them....]
Masadi, employment has nothing to do with human feelings of anyone. It is pure economics, supply and demand. This is true all over the world. Do you think people in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia are hired for ``human feelings``? Employers hire people who will help them compete and make money. If you are useful for that, employers will hire you. If you are not, they will toss you out. The only exception is the public sector that runs on tax money. As an employee, the only choice we have is to pick a skill set where we can be valuable and be relevant in the market place.
So why is the US different from other countries? Because US is the only country where profit is significantly above all other consideration like race, religion, ethnicity etc. My personal experience and the experience of millions of immigrants suggest that in this country, if you have the skill sets, the system gives you opportunities. Not out of any love for you or your looks - but simply because you can make money for the company. This contrasts to other countries especially in Europe, where people will give profit a lower priority but give more weightage to race, ethnicity etc. Now as a macaca from India, I or other Indians can do nothing about our race or ethnicity. But we can sure pick a skill set and get into the game here. If the game stops, we pick another skill and so on. Soon you find that you are successful!! Of course, if you dont have marketable skills, you have no chance.
[...Once your ``market`` cannot exact the surplus from the code coolies, that you are so proud of, they will be discarded as cockroaches, their employment has nothing to do with their thinking or reasoning ability or the human feeling of the Americans towards them....]
Masadi, employment has nothing to do with human feelings of anyone. It is pure economics, supply and demand. This is true all over the world. Do you think people in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia are hired for ``human feelings``? Employers hire people who will help them compete and make money. If you are useful for that, employers will hire you. If you are not, they will toss you out. The only exception is the public sector that runs on tax money. As an employee, the only choice we have is to pick a skill set where we can be valuable and be relevant in the market place.
So why is the US different from other countries? Because US is the only country where profit is significantly above all other consideration like race, religion, ethnicity etc. My personal experience and the experience of millions of immigrants suggest that in this country, if you have the skill sets, the system gives you opportunities. Not out of any love for you or your looks - but simply because you can make money for the company. This contrasts to other countries especially in Europe, where people will give profit a lower priority but give more weightage to race, ethnicity etc. Now as a macaca from India, I or other Indians can do nothing about our race or ethnicity. But we can sure pick a skill set and get into the game here. If the game stops, we pick another skill and so on. Soon you find that you are successful!! Of course, if you dont have marketable skills, you have no chance.
#165 Posted by echoboom on October 8, 2006 10:33:07 pm
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#164 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 9:00:03 pm
Behram,
We are on the same page(not foley page) on almost all issues and you respect my opinion. But I still have problem with this statement:
``No, I have expensive air fresheners in my toilet and I always make sure to use the best kind.``
Does this mean your sh*t does stink and you cover it up? recall that previously you said your sh*t doesn not stink...
Just curious....
We are on the same page(not foley page) on almost all issues and you respect my opinion. But I still have problem with this statement:
``No, I have expensive air fresheners in my toilet and I always make sure to use the best kind.``
Does this mean your sh*t does stink and you cover it up? recall that previously you said your sh*t doesn not stink...
Just curious....
#163 Posted by teshah on October 8, 2006 8:58:51 pm
Re: # 112
bjkumar
How wonderfully you put the question of questions, dear kumar. But it is a question which begs no answer and would perhaps will elicit no response from those to whom it is addressed. It is perhaps the instinctive hatred and ego which makes some people hate others and the best handle and cover for that today is religion.
You say:
``At that point, it is only a matter of time before confrontation develops! Name me one country which has a sizeable Muslim population and there is no confrontation with other religions (unless those other religions have already been chased away).``
This malady is at worst in the country called Pakiland where the law of blasphemy rules supreme. The other religions having been almost chased away from the Land of the Pure or utterly subjugated as helpless minorities, they are now creating new minorities from out of their own religion to give vent to their hatred and brutal instincts, all in the name of that very religion.
The fact is however civilised we may believe to be we humans, in the final analysis, are just animals.
bjkumar
How wonderfully you put the question of questions, dear kumar. But it is a question which begs no answer and would perhaps will elicit no response from those to whom it is addressed. It is perhaps the instinctive hatred and ego which makes some people hate others and the best handle and cover for that today is religion.
You say:
``At that point, it is only a matter of time before confrontation develops! Name me one country which has a sizeable Muslim population and there is no confrontation with other religions (unless those other religions have already been chased away).``
This malady is at worst in the country called Pakiland where the law of blasphemy rules supreme. The other religions having been almost chased away from the Land of the Pure or utterly subjugated as helpless minorities, they are now creating new minorities from out of their own religion to give vent to their hatred and brutal instincts, all in the name of that very religion.
The fact is however civilised we may believe to be we humans, in the final analysis, are just animals.
#162 Posted by masadi on October 8, 2006 8:46:41 pm
aslam writes in #136 <<< echo
it is fact that marx was middle class, and made his maid pregnant i learned that at school in o`level history. >>>
A dispicable attempt at trying to discredit someone who has contributed originally to human thought. Marx was not middle class, his parents were, he himself lived in abject poverty, that because the few writing jobs he held didn`t pay much and there were no code coolies in those days. Saying that he never visited a factory is quite prepostrous, he lived in London and his friend who supported him Engels had a cotton spinning factory in Manchester and in those days you couldn`t live in manchester and not see a factory. Further, his work was very much scientific given his limitation of funds, he did his own surveys among workers, he poured hours upon hours on actual records collected by the factories at the library. Cheap excuses and Ad Hominem by those who will never amount to anything in the field, like the writer of that article disproves nothing. Time has proved the truthfulness of his observations during the Victorian era, and no historian worth the name disputes the dispicable working condition of workers, including children in that era. I am glad Marx didn`t work and instead did the work that he did or all of us would be poorer in terms of knowledge and humanism in the modern era, though it was at great cost to his family.
it is fact that marx was middle class, and made his maid pregnant i learned that at school in o`level history. >>>
A dispicable attempt at trying to discredit someone who has contributed originally to human thought. Marx was not middle class, his parents were, he himself lived in abject poverty, that because the few writing jobs he held didn`t pay much and there were no code coolies in those days. Saying that he never visited a factory is quite prepostrous, he lived in London and his friend who supported him Engels had a cotton spinning factory in Manchester and in those days you couldn`t live in manchester and not see a factory. Further, his work was very much scientific given his limitation of funds, he did his own surveys among workers, he poured hours upon hours on actual records collected by the factories at the library. Cheap excuses and Ad Hominem by those who will never amount to anything in the field, like the writer of that article disproves nothing. Time has proved the truthfulness of his observations during the Victorian era, and no historian worth the name disputes the dispicable working condition of workers, including children in that era. I am glad Marx didn`t work and instead did the work that he did or all of us would be poorer in terms of knowledge and humanism in the modern era, though it was at great cost to his family.
#161 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 8:45:55 pm
#158 by hamidm2
“it his his constant bitching about the system that is grating ........ he an unrepentant islamofascist who will pee in the pot that he eats in and then turn around and bite the hand that fed him, before blowing himself up”
Hamid,
I never thought you could abuse people with such gay abundance. Asadi has worldview and opinions abt things right or wrong you can debate that with him.
Among many things that this country offers, it still believes in freedom of opinion and that opinion could be diametrically opposite to even the founding principles of the country itself. I find thousands of red blood American( must I mention white too?) for last several generations, who wrote ten or maybe 100 times more anti US opinions and no one challenges their patriotism barring a few foul mouth rightwing nutcases. You know dick Cheney or Rush Limbaugh don’t have monopoly on deciding who could be the US citizen.
I think at this point you are just showing your frustrations as you have no right under any US law to decide who lives in this country or who does not. It is a personal matter and let the US government based on legal facts decide on that.
Search the Net and you will find many groups that actually oppose every single policy of the different US administration. In fact, what Asadi writes is often second hand news for me as he relies heavily on the information available thru legal US media and from some really learned opinion makers.
Mind you I am not defending Masadi, he can fend for himself but what I am pointing to you is that what you are suggesting (bitching about the system that is grating) is perfectly legal in this country.
Like Masadi, it seems to me that you don’t have enough faith in the democratic system in the US that can withstand any kind of criticism coming from any group or any ideological strain. Some of it I believe comes from they way we were raised in Pakistan and especially in Punjab. In Sindh when I and several friends were fighting for democracy and little rights that were denied to us poor Sindhis, we too were called enemies of the state, Indian agents and what not. Recall that poor Bengalis had to duke this out in the battlefield.
Have you ever found any Sindhi or Baloch who betrayed Pakistan despite the constant barrage of charges that were hurled at Sindhis and Balochis?
Expressing opinions is a fundamental right and I appreciate the US more because the country provides me an opportunity to express my opinions freely and without any fear.
After having lived in this country for so many years, if you don’t understand this simple thing than I can only say that you still have a lot to learn abt this country.
Sorry once in while, after couple of drinks, I do get emotional. Nothing personal here.
“it his his constant bitching about the system that is grating ........ he an unrepentant islamofascist who will pee in the pot that he eats in and then turn around and bite the hand that fed him, before blowing himself up”
Hamid,
I never thought you could abuse people with such gay abundance. Asadi has worldview and opinions abt things right or wrong you can debate that with him.
Among many things that this country offers, it still believes in freedom of opinion and that opinion could be diametrically opposite to even the founding principles of the country itself. I find thousands of red blood American( must I mention white too?) for last several generations, who wrote ten or maybe 100 times more anti US opinions and no one challenges their patriotism barring a few foul mouth rightwing nutcases. You know dick Cheney or Rush Limbaugh don’t have monopoly on deciding who could be the US citizen.
I think at this point you are just showing your frustrations as you have no right under any US law to decide who lives in this country or who does not. It is a personal matter and let the US government based on legal facts decide on that.
Search the Net and you will find many groups that actually oppose every single policy of the different US administration. In fact, what Asadi writes is often second hand news for me as he relies heavily on the information available thru legal US media and from some really learned opinion makers.
Mind you I am not defending Masadi, he can fend for himself but what I am pointing to you is that what you are suggesting (bitching about the system that is grating) is perfectly legal in this country.
Like Masadi, it seems to me that you don’t have enough faith in the democratic system in the US that can withstand any kind of criticism coming from any group or any ideological strain. Some of it I believe comes from they way we were raised in Pakistan and especially in Punjab. In Sindh when I and several friends were fighting for democracy and little rights that were denied to us poor Sindhis, we too were called enemies of the state, Indian agents and what not. Recall that poor Bengalis had to duke this out in the battlefield.
Have you ever found any Sindhi or Baloch who betrayed Pakistan despite the constant barrage of charges that were hurled at Sindhis and Balochis?
Expressing opinions is a fundamental right and I appreciate the US more because the country provides me an opportunity to express my opinions freely and without any fear.
After having lived in this country for so many years, if you don’t understand this simple thing than I can only say that you still have a lot to learn abt this country.
Sorry once in while, after couple of drinks, I do get emotional. Nothing personal here.
#160 Posted by Behram1 on October 8, 2006 8:36:35 pm
#157 by HP on October 8, 2006 7:52pm PT
Dear HP:
Hamid has outlined most of my thoughts regarding masadi`s usual rants and rave. I, for one, have never condemned immigrant`s current profession. Through his many posts people like masadi come across very negative and depressing and hence the outburst on my part to enlighten him and helping him out.
{Was your response tongue in check or you really don’t know what it takes to be successful? }
No, I have no idea, what happiness means to you. I know exactly what happiness means to me.
{Or were you just telling me that you are happy? } I am just telling you that I am happy.
{As much as I like your worldview and appreciate your positive approach, I find that most of these statements are not signs of being successful. } That is your opinion, and I respect that.
{You maybe outgoing but plenty of nude dancers are outgoing too and I doubt that being outgoing gives you any edge.}
Actually, you are wrong. Being outgoing exudes self-confidence and self-esteem. And it does give me an edge then looking dull and drudged. BTW, I am not a nude dancer.
{Successful people don’t love people that is something gays do. Loving people is not a trait of successful people.} That is once again you opinion and I respect that. And I am not gay.
{“I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, “ every Dick (tom or Harry too) does that . It is not a sign of being successful. }
But not every ali akbar from Pakistan can carry a conversation other than arguments, which incidentally he/she thinks is a conversation. O! and God forbid, if you ever tried a conversation with a Punjabi (regardless from Pakistan or India) their DB level is so high that I had to ask for some sound attenuator.
{“I am good looking, I am funny,” These are not the qualities of successful people some gays may take pride in it but successful people don’t care abt this at all. }
That is once again you opinion and I respect that. And I am not gay.
{“my Sh*t doesn`t stink,” You sound so positive now that I wonder if you actually go down and taste or take a deep breath in the bowl before flushing. }
No, I have expensive air fresheners in my toilet and I always make sure to use the best kind. Maybe you should try some, so that you may not get into this jealousy mode.
{“and yes I make good money.” That sound like something but what is good money for you may not be enough for me. }
Yes, I agree and as I have always maintained, That is once again you opinion and I respect that.
{No Cowboy, not at all. I have no problem with you. } Thank you.
{Like I dont have any problem with lots of Joe Schmucks walking on the streets. I actually never pay attention to them.... :) }
Now here you are being inauthentic, because you have paid attention to me by paying attention to my post.:)
Thank you for always enlightening me.
Respectfully submitted,
Dear HP:
Hamid has outlined most of my thoughts regarding masadi`s usual rants and rave. I, for one, have never condemned immigrant`s current profession. Through his many posts people like masadi come across very negative and depressing and hence the outburst on my part to enlighten him and helping him out.
{Was your response tongue in check or you really don’t know what it takes to be successful? }
No, I have no idea, what happiness means to you. I know exactly what happiness means to me.
{Or were you just telling me that you are happy? } I am just telling you that I am happy.
{As much as I like your worldview and appreciate your positive approach, I find that most of these statements are not signs of being successful. } That is your opinion, and I respect that.
{You maybe outgoing but plenty of nude dancers are outgoing too and I doubt that being outgoing gives you any edge.}
Actually, you are wrong. Being outgoing exudes self-confidence and self-esteem. And it does give me an edge then looking dull and drudged. BTW, I am not a nude dancer.
{Successful people don’t love people that is something gays do. Loving people is not a trait of successful people.} That is once again you opinion and I respect that. And I am not gay.
{“I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, “ every Dick (tom or Harry too) does that . It is not a sign of being successful. }
But not every ali akbar from Pakistan can carry a conversation other than arguments, which incidentally he/she thinks is a conversation. O! and God forbid, if you ever tried a conversation with a Punjabi (regardless from Pakistan or India) their DB level is so high that I had to ask for some sound attenuator.
{“I am good looking, I am funny,” These are not the qualities of successful people some gays may take pride in it but successful people don’t care abt this at all. }
That is once again you opinion and I respect that. And I am not gay.
{“my Sh*t doesn`t stink,” You sound so positive now that I wonder if you actually go down and taste or take a deep breath in the bowl before flushing. }
No, I have expensive air fresheners in my toilet and I always make sure to use the best kind. Maybe you should try some, so that you may not get into this jealousy mode.
{“and yes I make good money.” That sound like something but what is good money for you may not be enough for me. }
Yes, I agree and as I have always maintained, That is once again you opinion and I respect that.
{No Cowboy, not at all. I have no problem with you. } Thank you.
{Like I dont have any problem with lots of Joe Schmucks walking on the streets. I actually never pay attention to them.... :) }
Now here you are being inauthentic, because you have paid attention to me by paying attention to my post.:)
Thank you for always enlightening me.
Respectfully submitted,
#159 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 8:12:51 pm
hp,
..... in case you missed this gem from mad mullah masadi :`` it is enacted in a society that is rigged for failure of the many and success of the few. ``.............
.......... as the father of two kids i consider this man to be as big a threat to them as a pedophile ! .............here i am sending my daughter news items about indra nooyi and mark cuban and bill gates and then here comes cheese munching masadi telling her that the reason she got a c on her last test is because the system is rigged against her ! .......... i wish he would just starve himself to death in this holy month (i am desperatly trying to stick to the subject of this board)
#158 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 8:04:09 pm
Re: # 149
hp,
you are reading this totally wrong ............... ``I think some of us really need to get a crash course in basic human values. Instead of appreciating asadi for working hard to pay his bills, some of us probably need some education on how hardwork always pays off no matter which society you live in.`` .........
....................... all of us extoll the value of hard work and really admire mullah masadi for working two jobs - it his his constant bitching about the system that is grating ........ he an unrepentant islamofascist who will pee in the pot that he eats in and then turn around and bite the hand that fed him, before blowing himself up !........... the man is a disgrace to all immigrants of any hue and color and sets a bad example for little children who don`t want to do their homework because they think the school system is rigged against them ........... and now he wants to jump on al sharpton`s bandwagon even though his forefathers sold al`s grandpa into slavery in the first place !
look, i always bring up my sprinkler guy because i admire his hard work and he too holds two jobs - he works as a security guard at night so that he can get health insurance (and this might surprise you , but i do support a national health service) ............. but i never hear him bitching about it or blaming the man for his sleepless nights ....... most of us weren`t born with a silver spoon in our mouths and it wasn`t many years ago when i was drinking 69 cents a pack mickey`s bigmouth and eating hamburger helper five times a week .......... during ramadan we would drink some cheap vodka and go to bed hungry because we couldn`t afford the dates, samosas, papri chaat, pakoras and pink milk with roohafza ........... but we never, ever, took government cheese or blamed the man for our misery ..................by working hard and investing in the stock market we have made it, and now this ramadan , by the grace of god, we can afford the best wines and cheese money can buy ................
hp,
you are reading this totally wrong ............... ``I think some of us really need to get a crash course in basic human values. Instead of appreciating asadi for working hard to pay his bills, some of us probably need some education on how hardwork always pays off no matter which society you live in.`` .........
....................... all of us extoll the value of hard work and really admire mullah masadi for working two jobs - it his his constant bitching about the system that is grating ........ he an unrepentant islamofascist who will pee in the pot that he eats in and then turn around and bite the hand that fed him, before blowing himself up !........... the man is a disgrace to all immigrants of any hue and color and sets a bad example for little children who don`t want to do their homework because they think the school system is rigged against them ........... and now he wants to jump on al sharpton`s bandwagon even though his forefathers sold al`s grandpa into slavery in the first place !
look, i always bring up my sprinkler guy because i admire his hard work and he too holds two jobs - he works as a security guard at night so that he can get health insurance (and this might surprise you , but i do support a national health service) ............. but i never hear him bitching about it or blaming the man for his sleepless nights ....... most of us weren`t born with a silver spoon in our mouths and it wasn`t many years ago when i was drinking 69 cents a pack mickey`s bigmouth and eating hamburger helper five times a week .......... during ramadan we would drink some cheap vodka and go to bed hungry because we couldn`t afford the dates, samosas, papri chaat, pakoras and pink milk with roohafza ........... but we never, ever, took government cheese or blamed the man for our misery ..................by working hard and investing in the stock market we have made it, and now this ramadan , by the grace of god, we can afford the best wines and cheese money can buy ................
#157 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 7:52:04 pm
#155 by behram1
“As for myself, I consider myself successful because I am outgoing, I am positive, I love people, I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, I am good looking, I am funny, and my Sh*t doesn`t stink, and yes I make good money.”
Was your response tongue in check or you really don’t know what it takes to be successful?
Or were you just telling me that you are happy?
As much as I like your worldview and appreciate your positive approach, I find that most of these statements are not signs of being successful.
“I am outgoing” You maybe outgoing but plenty of nude dancers are outgoing too and I doubt that being outgoing gives you any edge.
“I am positive, I love people,” Successful people don’t love people that is something gays do. Loving people is not a trait of successful people.
“I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, “ every Dick (tom or Harry too) does that . It is not a sign of being successful.
“I am good looking, I am funny,” These are not the qualities of successful people some gays may take pride in it but successful people don’t care abt this at all.
“my Sh*t doesn`t stink,” You sound so positive now that I wonder if you actually go down and taste or take a deep breath in the bowl before flushing.
“and yes I make good money.” That sound like something but what is good money for you may not be enough for me.
``Now do you have a problem with a person like me?``
No Cowboy, not at all. I have no problem with you. Like I dont have any problem with lots of Joe Schmucks walking on the streets. I actually never pay attention to them....
:)
#156 Posted by echoboom on October 8, 2006 7:13:57 pm
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#155 Posted by Behram1 on October 8, 2006 7:12:27 pm
Dear HP:
Frankly, like love being successful is in the eyes of the beholder. I understand that you are developing a value system based on monetary system, but maybe masadi has a totally different values to be considered as successful.
{Three presumably successful people (Hamid, Behram, and tahmed now) on this board just forgot how they succeeded in this country. }
As for myself, I consider myself successful because I am outgoing, I am positive, I love people, I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, I am good looking, I am funny, and my Sh*t doesn`t stink, and yes I make good money.
Now do you have a problem with a person like me? Then it is your problem, and not mine.
Respectfully submitted,
Frankly, like love being successful is in the eyes of the beholder. I understand that you are developing a value system based on monetary system, but maybe masadi has a totally different values to be considered as successful.
{Three presumably successful people (Hamid, Behram, and tahmed now) on this board just forgot how they succeeded in this country. }
As for myself, I consider myself successful because I am outgoing, I am positive, I love people, I make friends with Joe Schmuck quite easily, I am good looking, I am funny, and my Sh*t doesn`t stink, and yes I make good money.
Now do you have a problem with a person like me? Then it is your problem, and not mine.
Respectfully submitted,
#154 Posted by masadi on October 8, 2006 7:10:10 pm
ranjit writes <<< Assuming that he is a true believer in his own idiotology, his personal condition reflects the utter failure of that idiotology, while his failure further fuels that idiotology in his own mind. As a result, even if he wants to, he cannot succeed. Ironically his success in US would destroy his own belief system, something that he cannot handle >>>
My personal condition though far from a failure, is not enacted in a world that I made, it is enacted in a society that is rigged for failure of the many and success of the few. A lottery winner does not prove or disprove the strength of an economic system. Once your ``market`` cannot exact the surplus from the code coolies, that you are so proud of, they will be discarded as cockroaches, their employment has nothing to do with their thinking or reasoning ability or the human feeling of the Americans towards them, when not needed this country`s elite discards its own workforce for cheaper labor abroad.
Even if I were to make millions that wouldn`t certainly disprove what I write about which is well documented given aggregate data, personal success or failure has absolutely nothing to do with it. I managed to get a graduate degree in the US with full assistantship, which very few in the US manage, and this society or US society had absolutely nothing to do with it, it had to do with someone who had the moraliy to look at my qualifications objectively and give me equal opportunity, he happened to be a non-American.
My personal condition though far from a failure, is not enacted in a world that I made, it is enacted in a society that is rigged for failure of the many and success of the few. A lottery winner does not prove or disprove the strength of an economic system. Once your ``market`` cannot exact the surplus from the code coolies, that you are so proud of, they will be discarded as cockroaches, their employment has nothing to do with their thinking or reasoning ability or the human feeling of the Americans towards them, when not needed this country`s elite discards its own workforce for cheaper labor abroad.
Even if I were to make millions that wouldn`t certainly disprove what I write about which is well documented given aggregate data, personal success or failure has absolutely nothing to do with it. I managed to get a graduate degree in the US with full assistantship, which very few in the US manage, and this society or US society had absolutely nothing to do with it, it had to do with someone who had the moraliy to look at my qualifications objectively and give me equal opportunity, he happened to be a non-American.
#153 Posted by teshah on October 8, 2006 6:31:28 pm
Re: # 112
bjkumar
How wonderfully you put the question of questions, dear kumar. But it is a question which begs no answer and would perhaps will elicit no response from those to whom it is addressed. It is perhaps the instinctive hatred and ego which makes some people hate others and the best handle and cover for that today is religion.
You say:
``At that point, it is only a matter of time before confrontation develops! Name me one country which has a sizeable Muslim population and there is no confrontation with other religions (unless those other religions have already been chased away).``
This malady is at worst in the country called Pakiland where the law of blasphemy rules supreme. The other religions having been almost chased away from the Land of the Pure or utterly subjugated as helpless minorities, they are now creating new minorities from out of their own religion to give vent to their hatred and brutal instincts, all in the name of that very religion.
The fact is however civilised we may believe to be we humans, in the final analysis, are just animals.
bjkumar
How wonderfully you put the question of questions, dear kumar. But it is a question which begs no answer and would perhaps will elicit no response from those to whom it is addressed. It is perhaps the instinctive hatred and ego which makes some people hate others and the best handle and cover for that today is religion.
You say:
``At that point, it is only a matter of time before confrontation develops! Name me one country which has a sizeable Muslim population and there is no confrontation with other religions (unless those other religions have already been chased away).``
This malady is at worst in the country called Pakiland where the law of blasphemy rules supreme. The other religions having been almost chased away from the Land of the Pure or utterly subjugated as helpless minorities, they are now creating new minorities from out of their own religion to give vent to their hatred and brutal instincts, all in the name of that very religion.
The fact is however civilised we may believe to be we humans, in the final analysis, are just animals.
#152 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 6:30:30 pm
Re:hp#149
By the way, just for the record, there are many H1Bs who make over 100K, particularly DBAs and Systems Engineers.
There has been a cumulative effect of Indian success in IT. The good reputation gained over several years has led to a situation where it has become stereotypical for Indians to be considered as good in IT. It is kind of like ``profiling``, except that it is positive profiling.
I am regularly in meetings where hiring decisions are made. I have personally seen situations where american executives wanted to hire someone because their resume said undergrad from IIT. The resumes had hundred other things on it, but the IIT label would get a lot of attention, with everyone saying that the person must be really smart and should get the nod.
By the way, just for the record, there are many H1Bs who make over 100K, particularly DBAs and Systems Engineers.
There has been a cumulative effect of Indian success in IT. The good reputation gained over several years has led to a situation where it has become stereotypical for Indians to be considered as good in IT. It is kind of like ``profiling``, except that it is positive profiling.
I am regularly in meetings where hiring decisions are made. I have personally seen situations where american executives wanted to hire someone because their resume said undergrad from IIT. The resumes had hundred other things on it, but the IIT label would get a lot of attention, with everyone saying that the person must be really smart and should get the nod.
#151 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 6:23:01 pm
#149,
“Most of the H1b start at $25-35 range”
Honestly, a family of four or five living off $25-35 range income is actually hand to mouth or lives paycheck to paycheck in most US metropolitans. I know Macacas live frugally and thats why you would never find a Macaca (unless ABCD) in some quality restaurant or in expensive stores with his family or friends.
So Macacas maybe very happy with this income but $25-35 range really is not a measure of success by any means.
“Most of the H1b start at $25-35 range”
Honestly, a family of four or five living off $25-35 range income is actually hand to mouth or lives paycheck to paycheck in most US metropolitans. I know Macacas live frugally and thats why you would never find a Macaca (unless ABCD) in some quality restaurant or in expensive stores with his family or friends.
So Macacas maybe very happy with this income but $25-35 range really is not a measure of success by any means.
#150 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 6:16:26 pm
Re:bj#148 and hp#149
The problem with Masadi is not that he has two jobs. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he thinks he has the answers to world`s problems. He spouts and propagates a vicious concoction of ideology - radical islam mixed with marxist economics - something that hamidm calls ``idiotology``. He gives firebreathing holier-than-thou sermons of this idiotology and calls everyone a ``damn fool`` for disagreeing with him.
Assuming that he is a true believer in his own idiotology, his personal condition reflects the utter failure of that idiotology, while his failure further fuels that idiotology in his own mind. As a result, even if he wants to, he cannot succeed. Ironically his success in US would destroy his own belief system, something that he cannot handle. Yet at the same time, he is not willing to give up and try it out back in Pakistan. My suspicion is that the idiotology would fail there as well. Perhaps a talibanized Afghanistan might find use for it.
All immigrants to the US face an uphill challenge. Its not a cakewalk for anyone. Most of us make it by keeping a positive, non-defeatist mindset, extreme hard work and taking lessons from failure. The fact that most of us do make it here in US in spite of the challenges shows that we are right and masadi is wrong.
The problem with Masadi is not that he has two jobs. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he thinks he has the answers to world`s problems. He spouts and propagates a vicious concoction of ideology - radical islam mixed with marxist economics - something that hamidm calls ``idiotology``. He gives firebreathing holier-than-thou sermons of this idiotology and calls everyone a ``damn fool`` for disagreeing with him.
Assuming that he is a true believer in his own idiotology, his personal condition reflects the utter failure of that idiotology, while his failure further fuels that idiotology in his own mind. As a result, even if he wants to, he cannot succeed. Ironically his success in US would destroy his own belief system, something that he cannot handle. Yet at the same time, he is not willing to give up and try it out back in Pakistan. My suspicion is that the idiotology would fail there as well. Perhaps a talibanized Afghanistan might find use for it.
All immigrants to the US face an uphill challenge. Its not a cakewalk for anyone. Most of us make it by keeping a positive, non-defeatist mindset, extreme hard work and taking lessons from failure. The fact that most of us do make it here in US in spite of the challenges shows that we are right and masadi is wrong.
#149 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 5:59:22 pm
And now tahmed joins the chorus. As I understand it anyone who is working two jobs is infinitely more respectful and honorable than someone on entitlements. I think some of us really need to get a crash course in basic human values. Instead of appreciating asadi for working hard to pay his bills, some of us probably need some education on how hardwork always pays off no matter which society you live in. Asadi may not like the US society now but in the long run he will appreciate how he was rewarded by this society for his hardwork.
Three presumably successful people (Hamid, Behram, and tahmed now) on this board just forgot how they succeeded in this country.
#144
I am not into responding Macacas writing childish and unsupported stuff. But just for once, let me refute this nonsense here:
“ordinary hindus arriving from India get six figure jobs in IT. “
There is not a single Macaca in the US on H1b visa who made six figures on arrival. Some Macaca contractors, if they have green card or the US citizenship, make contract rates that are close to six figures. Most of the H1b start at $25-35 range and for years live in horrible slave labor situations that no American would tolerate.
For the record Macacas are actually bumrushing borders.
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/ILL_PE_2005.pdf
“The annual average increase in the unauthorized population from 2000 to 2005 was greatest among Mexican immigrants (260,000). However, the greatest percentage increase in the unauthorized immigrant population from 2000 to 2005 occurred among immigrants from India (133 percent) and Brazil (70 percent).”
The Ordinary arriving Macaca in the US is actually an illegal immigrant barely making minimum wages in 7-eleven, Gas stations, Doughnut shops or in restaurants. (I am not trying to belittle these hardworking Macacas here but I must say that the Macaca community in the US has the tendency to sweep this under the rug like many other things abt the khasilund.
Here is a little note by a Macaca commenting on illegal Macacas in the US:
“70% of what I have seen are Punjabis - they either cross from Mexico or come on visitor visa and never go back. Try to legalize claiming political asylum. Some of them are ex-militants, so there is a security angle here.
15% will be Patels or Gujaratis. Again they already have established family in US (like Mexicans), so just jump the queue to join the family. Go through primarily fake marriage route to get legal.
5% Tamils - these guys claim to be persecuted Tamils from Sri Lanka. (it is easy to get political asylum if you say you are a Tamil from Sri Lanka). They will have a ready made sob story ready to convince the judge presiding over asylum case.
5% Indian Christians - this is kind of new trend started when BJP ruled India. Suddenly some random attack on church was publicized as an organized political attack on Christians in India and many Indian Christians have started applying for political asylum in US.
Rest 5% - random assortment of Tibetians, Nepalis, Bangladeshis, Srilankans coming using Indian passport and then seeking political asylum.”
#148 Posted by bjkumar on October 8, 2006 4:50:49 pm
#146 Ranjit
It is not how long one fights the battle, but when one enters it and how one fights is what assures victory.
Timing is everything – and you could not have chosen better!
You have made the Tauheed draw back in fear! You made the H2 evaporate like a gas – fully invisible!
You have demolished mian Masadi, although I am sure he disagrees (plus he was probably already considerably weakened through those unkind cuts of the Tauheed and the Hameed duo.)
You blew away my very dear Behram! (Alas, the rules of the war preclude my coming to his rescue!)
You have made the Zee zip up!
You have silenced the Boomers! Made the Urstruly truly quiet!
And you have turned the HP into a Highly Pathetic “stay-at-home” for fear of what would have happened to him had he dared to show up!
Ranjit, I think it is fair to crown you the winner of this round.
#147 Posted by tahmed32 on October 8, 2006 3:02:42 pm
#146 ranjit: i am glad we finally agree on something.
#146 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 3:01:54 pm
Re:tahmed#145
[..also, per hamidm his pakistani gardeners son has been admitted to Harvard. and i know a number of young pakistanis who are doing as well as these hindus you refer to. so rest assured that masadi represents no one but himself and small group of losers whom you will find in every community.....]
The successful Pakistanis in US are the non-jihadi Pakistanis, who are secular in outlook with nominal religious beliefs. I know quite a few such people and a have a lot of respect for them. And, yes, they are quite successful.
That just shows how harmful jihadi ideology is.
[..also, per hamidm his pakistani gardeners son has been admitted to Harvard. and i know a number of young pakistanis who are doing as well as these hindus you refer to. so rest assured that masadi represents no one but himself and small group of losers whom you will find in every community.....]
The successful Pakistanis in US are the non-jihadi Pakistanis, who are secular in outlook with nominal religious beliefs. I know quite a few such people and a have a lot of respect for them. And, yes, they are quite successful.
That just shows how harmful jihadi ideology is.
#145 Posted by tahmed32 on October 8, 2006 2:53:54 pm
#144 masadi is being modest. in addition to exposing the truth about world politics in-between the midnight shift, he also writes world famous books in his spare time, and gets them published by lulu.com (or so i understand from okla`s posts)!! :-)
also, per hamidm his pakistani gardeners son has been admitted to Harvard. and i know a number of young pakistanis who are doing as well as these hindus you refer to. so rest assured that masadi represents no one but himself and small group of losers whom you will find in every community.
also, per hamidm his pakistani gardeners son has been admitted to Harvard. and i know a number of young pakistanis who are doing as well as these hindus you refer to. so rest assured that masadi represents no one but himself and small group of losers whom you will find in every community.
#144 Posted by Ranjit on October 8, 2006 2:16:21 pm
Re:masadi#117
[...Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet...if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job...]
Hey macaca_mullah, so this is your pathetic state? What a loser!! Why dont you do what all jihadi muslims do in USA - drive a cab? You can make a lot more.
As compared to you, ordinary hindus arriving from India get six figure jobs in IT. US firms get Indian resumes and automatically think that they are smart. Thank god we Indians did not adopt your ridiculous religion and its destructive ideology. Otherwise we would also be beggars like you. You and zeemax and your future generations can remain beggars, while we laugh all the way to the bank.
[...Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet...if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job...]
Hey macaca_mullah, so this is your pathetic state? What a loser!! Why dont you do what all jihadi muslims do in USA - drive a cab? You can make a lot more.
As compared to you, ordinary hindus arriving from India get six figure jobs in IT. US firms get Indian resumes and automatically think that they are smart. Thank god we Indians did not adopt your ridiculous religion and its destructive ideology. Otherwise we would also be beggars like you. You and zeemax and your future generations can remain beggars, while we laugh all the way to the bank.
#143 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 12:10:44 pm
behram,
...... here is a site that might offer some answers http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/main/index.php?page=4&part=1
....... but seeing that you are of persian origin, you might want to check ayatollah khamenei`s site ............
.............. may al-lah give you guidance and keep you from sin (knowingly or unknowingly) ...... if you feel that the shaitan is trying to mislead you, recite the ayat-ul-qursi three times and then take a cold shower ............. here is how it goes :
(I pray) I will desist from the sins of wicked words and deeds and inclinations and directions, which I hold in enough scorn to repent, sincerely (with these words), for whatever sins I would have committed. Get thee behind me, Aheriman; get thee away from me, Aheriman; get lost, Aheriman. May thy many wicked ways, Ghanamino (i.e. Aheriman) be stricken hard and defeated, restricting thee to the inferno of hell. May it, then, come to pass that thy ultimate annihilation be instituted by Ahura Mazda, in the company of the victorious 33 Yazatas and the Amesha Spentas.
ameen and allah-u akbar !
#142 Posted by Kamath on October 8, 2006 11:38:06 am
Re: # 1
A month long Ramadan year after year! Come on now !What good does it do to a Muslim? Can`t you modernize a bit for a changed world? Could some one explain to me?
Kamath
A month long Ramadan year after year! Come on now !What good does it do to a Muslim? Can`t you modernize a bit for a changed world? Could some one explain to me?
Kamath
#141 Posted by Behram1 on October 8, 2006 11:30:29 am
Re: # 139 by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 11:09am PT
Dear Hamid:
Thank you for such a poignant response. I have been asking several of my muslim friends to enlighten me on this subject, but to no avail. However, masturbation is always deliberate. Your notion on having sex in your dreams is not masturbation, it is dreaming about sex. And then, why is the ayatollah restricting his admonitions to muslim men only?
Some food for your soul at the iftar party amongst your coreligionists, I suppose.
Respectfully submitted,
Dear Hamid:
Thank you for such a poignant response. I have been asking several of my muslim friends to enlighten me on this subject, but to no avail. However, masturbation is always deliberate. Your notion on having sex in your dreams is not masturbation, it is dreaming about sex. And then, why is the ayatollah restricting his admonitions to muslim men only?
Some food for your soul at the iftar party amongst your coreligionists, I suppose.
Respectfully submitted,
#140 Posted by Behram1 on October 8, 2006 11:17:35 am
Dear HP:
I do accept your notion that I should not have recommended masadi how to live his life.
Thank you for highlighting my weakness, and rest assured no bloody mary or virgin vodka for me.
Respectfully submitted,
I do accept your notion that I should not have recommended masadi how to live his life.
Thank you for highlighting my weakness, and rest assured no bloody mary or virgin vodka for me.
Respectfully submitted,
#139 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 11:09:57 am
behram mian,
...... i have been pondering your earlier question and inspite of having considerable experience in these matters i am stumped by this question about involuntary masturbation ....... (sorry ladies, this might sound bad, but is a very relvant question this ramadan since the ayatollah brought it up on his web site)
.......... once, okay maybe twice, in my life i have woken up in the morning wondering if i had had sex or not and if i did i guess it would count as `involuntary` sex ......... but i find it hard to believe that anhyone could masturbate without knowing it - even bill clinton who was a master at doing things witout actually doing them would find it hard to pull this one off ............ you can smoke without inhaling, and you can accidently spill your semen on a woman`s dress without actually having sex, but i just can`t see how you could masturbate without being an active participant in the dastardly act .............it blows my mind !......... but the ayatollah says it is possible, so it must be true ............
#138 Posted by zeemax on October 8, 2006 11:06:03 am
hamidm2,
You should complement Masadi instead of belittling his commitment in taking two jobs instead of becoming a copy writer for some ad agency. Don`t you think he could even do that with his language skills? Then he could earn maybe more than $1000 a week just as your wall street jobber.
You should complement Masadi instead of belittling his commitment in taking two jobs instead of becoming a copy writer for some ad agency. Don`t you think he could even do that with his language skills? Then he could earn maybe more than $1000 a week just as your wall street jobber.
#136 Posted by aslam644 on October 8, 2006 10:43:53 am
echo
it is fact that marx was middle class, and made his maid pregnant i learned that at school in o`level history.
here is an article by sara rigler jewish historian.
``MARX
The ideology of Communism swept the Russian Jewish world. The first Politburo immediately after the Russian Revolution had a Jewish majority. Within a decade, these Jewish Communists brutally destroyed all practice of Judaism in Russia. Jewish Socialists in America and Israel also actively fought against Jewish religious practices. America`s Workmen`s Circle held their annual banquet on Yom Kippur.
All these Communists and Socialists were loyal followers of Marx, who had branded religion, ``the opiate of the masses.`` How worthy was Marx himself to command such an army of believers?
Marx based his whole economic theory on the plight of the proletariat. Yet he himself was a middle-class intellectual who disdained the working class and sequestered himself for decades inside the British Library in lieu of direct observation of the conditions he railed against. According to historian Paul Johnson, ``So far as we know Marx never set foot in a mill, factory, mine or other industrial workplace in the whole of his life.`` 1
Marx claimed that his economic theories were ``scientific.`` In his time, no less than today, the claim ``scientific`` was the greatest endorsement possible. After all, what reasonable person could argue with the objective findings of science?
Marx`s distortion of the scientific method was to search through thousands of volumes in the British Library, picking and choosing those statistics, sometimes long outdated, which bolstered his already-formed theories. Again to quote Johnson: ``The problem, as it appeared to Marx, was to find the right kind of facts: the facts that fitted... He was not interested in finding the truth but in proclaiming it.`` 2
Karl Jaspers makes the same point: ``[Marx`s] whole approach is one of vindication, not investigation, but it is a vindication of something proclaimed as the perfect truth with the conviction not of the scientist but of the believer.`` 3
Marx not only omitted facts which ran counter to his theories, but also was guilty of distorting, falsifying, and misquoting information which contradicted his contentions. The most glaring case occurred in his Inaugural Address to the International Working Men`s Association, in September, 1864. Marx quoted W.E. Gladstone`s budget speech of the previous year, in which Gladstone in fact lauded the increase in Britain`s national wealth because it benefited all classes of British society. Marx misquoted Gladstone as saying, ``This intoxicating augmentation of wealth and power is entirely confined to classes of property.``
Marx`s flagrant misquotation was pointed out to him, but he repeated it in his magnum opus Das Kapital.
Marx`s worst hypocrisy lay in the sphere of his character and values. Over the last century, millions of young Jews in Europe and America have rallied around Socialism and Communism as the system of ultimate compassion. After all, Marxism`s chief concern was with the plight of the poor, dispossessed working people. Jews have perceived it as a modern-day version of the Biblical Prophets, a clarion call to share wealth with society`s unfortunates.
But Marx himself was contemptuous of simple, uneducated, working class people. In many personal interactions with them, he displayed a vicious temper, heaping abuse on men who did not have the verbal skills to defend themselves. Often given to outbursts of violent anger against any Communist who disagreed with him, Marx had a habit of saying, ``I will annihilate you.``4
Marx is perhaps the most chilling example of how the moral failings of an ideologue corrupt his ideas and all the movements and institutions which issue from his ideas. Marx`s whole goal was to save the proletariat, but the Communist regimes in the Soviet Union and China, founded on his principles, wantonly murdered tens of millions of peasants and workers. It is as if the irascibility and violence of Marx himself insinuated itself into the embryo of Communism; as the organism grew, so did its bent for dogmatism and violence. Stalin and Mao were able to actualize Marx`s vain threats; they annihilated millions.
Nowhere was Marx`s hypocrisy more evident than in his personal life. The champion of the working class knew well only one working class person: Helen Demuth, the maid who worked for his family. Marx, who railed against the exploitation of the workers, exploited his only worker both financially and sexually. In the forty-five years Helen worked for the Marx family, he never paid her a penny. She received only room and board, which for several years was as meager for her as for Marx`s unfortunate wife and children.
In 1849-50, while the family plus servant were living in a two-room flat, Marx started an intimate relationship with Helen and got her pregnant. He refused to admit that the child, a son named Freddy, was his, and had him put out as a foster child. As Freddy grew up, he was permitted to visit his mother in the Marx`s kitchen, but was forbidden to use the front door. The man who claimed compassion for millions of oppressed workers never spoke a word to his own working class son.``
it is fact that marx was middle class, and made his maid pregnant i learned that at school in o`level history.
here is an article by sara rigler jewish historian.
``MARX
The ideology of Communism swept the Russian Jewish world. The first Politburo immediately after the Russian Revolution had a Jewish majority. Within a decade, these Jewish Communists brutally destroyed all practice of Judaism in Russia. Jewish Socialists in America and Israel also actively fought against Jewish religious practices. America`s Workmen`s Circle held their annual banquet on Yom Kippur.
All these Communists and Socialists were loyal followers of Marx, who had branded religion, ``the opiate of the masses.`` How worthy was Marx himself to command such an army of believers?
Marx based his whole economic theory on the plight of the proletariat. Yet he himself was a middle-class intellectual who disdained the working class and sequestered himself for decades inside the British Library in lieu of direct observation of the conditions he railed against. According to historian Paul Johnson, ``So far as we know Marx never set foot in a mill, factory, mine or other industrial workplace in the whole of his life.`` 1
Marx claimed that his economic theories were ``scientific.`` In his time, no less than today, the claim ``scientific`` was the greatest endorsement possible. After all, what reasonable person could argue with the objective findings of science?
Marx`s distortion of the scientific method was to search through thousands of volumes in the British Library, picking and choosing those statistics, sometimes long outdated, which bolstered his already-formed theories. Again to quote Johnson: ``The problem, as it appeared to Marx, was to find the right kind of facts: the facts that fitted... He was not interested in finding the truth but in proclaiming it.`` 2
Karl Jaspers makes the same point: ``[Marx`s] whole approach is one of vindication, not investigation, but it is a vindication of something proclaimed as the perfect truth with the conviction not of the scientist but of the believer.`` 3
Marx not only omitted facts which ran counter to his theories, but also was guilty of distorting, falsifying, and misquoting information which contradicted his contentions. The most glaring case occurred in his Inaugural Address to the International Working Men`s Association, in September, 1864. Marx quoted W.E. Gladstone`s budget speech of the previous year, in which Gladstone in fact lauded the increase in Britain`s national wealth because it benefited all classes of British society. Marx misquoted Gladstone as saying, ``This intoxicating augmentation of wealth and power is entirely confined to classes of property.``
Marx`s flagrant misquotation was pointed out to him, but he repeated it in his magnum opus Das Kapital.
Marx`s worst hypocrisy lay in the sphere of his character and values. Over the last century, millions of young Jews in Europe and America have rallied around Socialism and Communism as the system of ultimate compassion. After all, Marxism`s chief concern was with the plight of the poor, dispossessed working people. Jews have perceived it as a modern-day version of the Biblical Prophets, a clarion call to share wealth with society`s unfortunates.
But Marx himself was contemptuous of simple, uneducated, working class people. In many personal interactions with them, he displayed a vicious temper, heaping abuse on men who did not have the verbal skills to defend themselves. Often given to outbursts of violent anger against any Communist who disagreed with him, Marx had a habit of saying, ``I will annihilate you.``4
Marx is perhaps the most chilling example of how the moral failings of an ideologue corrupt his ideas and all the movements and institutions which issue from his ideas. Marx`s whole goal was to save the proletariat, but the Communist regimes in the Soviet Union and China, founded on his principles, wantonly murdered tens of millions of peasants and workers. It is as if the irascibility and violence of Marx himself insinuated itself into the embryo of Communism; as the organism grew, so did its bent for dogmatism and violence. Stalin and Mao were able to actualize Marx`s vain threats; they annihilated millions.
Nowhere was Marx`s hypocrisy more evident than in his personal life. The champion of the working class knew well only one working class person: Helen Demuth, the maid who worked for his family. Marx, who railed against the exploitation of the workers, exploited his only worker both financially and sexually. In the forty-five years Helen worked for the Marx family, he never paid her a penny. She received only room and board, which for several years was as meager for her as for Marx`s unfortunate wife and children.
In 1849-50, while the family plus servant were living in a two-room flat, Marx started an intimate relationship with Helen and got her pregnant. He refused to admit that the child, a son named Freddy, was his, and had him put out as a foster child. As Freddy grew up, he was permitted to visit his mother in the Marx`s kitchen, but was forbidden to use the front door. The man who claimed compassion for millions of oppressed workers never spoke a word to his own working class son.``
#135 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 10:37:02 am
Re: # 133
sorry hp,
..... but for some reason echo and masadi bring out the worst in me and this ramadan thing is getting to me too - it just goes on for ever .......... a bloody mary does sound good - celery is good for you ...... if you need some cheese, i am sure masadi will be happy to share
sorry hp,
..... but for some reason echo and masadi bring out the worst in me and this ramadan thing is getting to me too - it just goes on for ever .......... a bloody mary does sound good - celery is good for you ...... if you need some cheese, i am sure masadi will be happy to share
#134 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 10:33:24 am
Re: # 131
...laski, who ?.......... if i recollect right, he lived in the same era as henry ford ......... and a hundred years from now people will still be talking about henry ford ..... laski is nothing but a mere footnote in some obscure history book ............
...laski, who ?.......... if i recollect right, he lived in the same era as henry ford ......... and a hundred years from now people will still be talking about henry ford ..... laski is nothing but a mere footnote in some obscure history book ............
#133 Posted by HP on October 8, 2006 10:32:09 am
#127 by hamidm2
#126 by behram1
Most unfortunate posts by two enlightened people. I wish you had not decided to comment in this childish manner. You always want people to work for their money and that should be good enough. Your posts suggest to me that whatever your parents taught you was perhaps not enough.
I guess you did not learn one basic thing even after living for so many years in the US. You don’t advise people unless you are specifically asked for. I think your unsolicited advise to people as how to live their lives and what they need to do is not only condescending but shows atrocious manners that perhaps are a legacy of your middleclass self righteous upbringing in lower middleclass households...
Banter and pulling legs is okay but I think telling people what to do in their personal lives is horrible.
You two ruined my Sunday morning....No Bloody mary for me for brunch.
#126 by behram1
Most unfortunate posts by two enlightened people. I wish you had not decided to comment in this childish manner. You always want people to work for their money and that should be good enough. Your posts suggest to me that whatever your parents taught you was perhaps not enough.
I guess you did not learn one basic thing even after living for so many years in the US. You don’t advise people unless you are specifically asked for. I think your unsolicited advise to people as how to live their lives and what they need to do is not only condescending but shows atrocious manners that perhaps are a legacy of your middleclass self righteous upbringing in lower middleclass households...
Banter and pulling legs is okay but I think telling people what to do in their personal lives is horrible.
You two ruined my Sunday morning....No Bloody mary for me for brunch.
#132 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 10:11:09 am
Re: # 131
echo,
i think comparing masadi to godless marx is a little unfair - i don`t think he would appreciate it .............. he should be compared to other graduates of al-azhar, deoband and akora khattak who are now living in caves, or are the guests of the us government .......... i find the islamofascist fascination with dark places fascinating .......
..... now don`t put too much roohafza in your milk - maswak will not undo the damage
echo,
i think comparing masadi to godless marx is a little unfair - i don`t think he would appreciate it .............. he should be compared to other graduates of al-azhar, deoband and akora khattak who are now living in caves, or are the guests of the us government .......... i find the islamofascist fascination with dark places fascinating .......
..... now don`t put too much roohafza in your milk - maswak will not undo the damage
#131 Posted by echoboom on October 8, 2006 10:02:26 am
aslam:64
I hope you know who Laski was.
From:
Karl Marx: An Essay (1922)
By HAROLD LASKI
.........................``
Marx`s London period is, creatively, the most important part of his career; but it was a difficult and tragic struggle for existence, and his work was accomplished only by heroic effort. For the first ten years, the family was hardly over the verge of starvation, and Marx had even to pawn his clothes for necessary expenses.
I hope you know who Laski was.
From:
Karl Marx: An Essay (1922)
By HAROLD LASKI
.........................``
Marx`s London period is, creatively, the most important part of his career; but it was a difficult and tragic struggle for existence, and his work was accomplished only by heroic effort. For the first ten years, the family was hardly over the verge of starvation, and Marx had even to pawn his clothes for necessary expenses.
#130 Posted by aslam644 on October 8, 2006 9:01:53 am
Re: # 128
echo
you haven`t a clue how marx lived he was a middle class bourgeiose, he was also a dirty old man who made his young maid pregnant and more or less disowned the child. what is it with these great men and their infatuation with young girls/women, marx, ghandi, etc.
echo
you haven`t a clue how marx lived he was a middle class bourgeiose, he was also a dirty old man who made his young maid pregnant and more or less disowned the child. what is it with these great men and their infatuation with young girls/women, marx, ghandi, etc.
#129 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 8:55:54 am
echboom,
``When some pathaans were not moved about water being denied to Husain and family, the orator said `` and they did not get Naswar for three days``...and the gathering burst into tears. `` .............. sometimes you look under a turd and you find a gem !!! :) .....
#128 Posted by echoboom on October 8, 2006 8:33:10 am
Mr. Masadi
Quite impressive.
Your reply would fall on deaf-ears. In the mindset of these slaves the only ``progress`` in this world is bank-balance and a good lifestyle. These poor souls are jobbers, techies, coolies and they are definitely needed by society for humdrumwork.
You are really blessed.
Some of those who have left a mark on history & (and not lowlifes like Bill-Gates) and human thought Like Marx, Whitman , Thoreau [just add your own thinker, writer, philosopher or poet] lived even a more spartan life...and I know these Blacksheep think you wrote it to elicit ``sympathy``.
What else can one axpect from these ``techie`` type coolies.
To each his own. When some pathaans were not moved about water being denied to Husain and family, the orator said `` and they did not get Naswar for three days``...and the gathering burst into tears.
These good-life-charlies who would sell their mmothers for less, as their massa said, are those Naswar-pathaans.
Avoid them. Shun their company...but hurt them hard!
Quite impressive.
Your reply would fall on deaf-ears. In the mindset of these slaves the only ``progress`` in this world is bank-balance and a good lifestyle. These poor souls are jobbers, techies, coolies and they are definitely needed by society for humdrumwork.
You are really blessed.
Some of those who have left a mark on history & (and not lowlifes like Bill-Gates) and human thought Like Marx, Whitman , Thoreau [just add your own thinker, writer, philosopher or poet] lived even a more spartan life...and I know these Blacksheep think you wrote it to elicit ``sympathy``.
What else can one axpect from these ``techie`` type coolies.
To each his own. When some pathaans were not moved about water being denied to Husain and family, the orator said `` and they did not get Naswar for three days``...and the gathering burst into tears.
These good-life-charlies who would sell their mmothers for less, as their massa said, are those Naswar-pathaans.
Avoid them. Shun their company...but hurt them hard!
#127 Posted by hamidm2 on October 8, 2006 7:28:49 am
Re: # 117
masadi,
this explains your anger and pain : ``I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure``
...... why? .... what is wrong with you ?....... did i tell you about my sprinkler guy from district jhelum who lives in a 3500 square foot house and just bought a new monster truck and has kids at harvard and uof m?............. how did he do it without any education ?......... and all the 22-23 year old kids i know who graduated over the last two three years are making anything between 60-120K a year (and to my surprise some of them do have useless majors like sociology!) ...........actually, not to demean sociology, i do know one paki kid with a sociology major who has deferred med school for a year to work full time for a republican politician ............ heck, this summer my daughter, who is a sophomore and has a hard time getting up in the morning, made 500 a week doing `research` for a pr firm - it is dangerous work because she did get a few paper cuts ........... her indian friend at columbia made 1000 a week as an intern at an investment bank in ny city and now my daughter feels inadequate and incompent and blames it on her love for her parents - i did buy her a new i-pod to compensate her for the loss in income........... and two years ago, when things were good in michigan, we used to hire summer interns and pay them 20-25 bucks an hour - unfortunately we have fallen on bad times so i really can`t help you................ so what is your problem ? ......
........... and if i might add, jeff the bartender at my local watering hole makes 2-300 a night in tips and just bought a nice litlle bungalow in royal oak, which is a happening place for yuppies - his only problem is trying to juggle all the girls he insists on dating at the same time .............. and, not that this will help you, but they tell me (this is second hand information, of course) that strippers in this town are making a 1000 a day inspite of the downturn in the automotive industry when contract engineers are struggling to make 50 an hour ............... so, as i said before, what is your excuse ?............... you know that you are not black, do you? ...... so you don`t have to sit in the basement, feeling sorry for yourself, blaming the plantation owner and waiting for the cheese truck to pull up ............you are an immigrant in the land of opportunity .............. just go out and just do it !
p.s............... years ago, when my brother was whining about something or the other, my seventy seven year old father thundered, ``even at this age, i can walk out of the house in the morning without a chawani in my pocket and come home in the evening with a couple of thousand rupees; i can get a pile of dirt, another pile of bajri, sell it and make enough money to feed you good-for-noting louts who sleep till noon...... and i grew up in a mud hut and didn`t get my first pair of shoes till i went to school !``.............. of course my brother and i rolled our eyes and, for the umpteenth time, got ready to hear the story about how he had had malaria, and how how tulsi das the school master had carried him on his shoulders across the flooding kassi to take his eight grade exam .......... but he and nike were right : anyone can do it
#126 Posted by Behram1 on October 8, 2006 7:17:10 am
Re: # 117 by masadi on October 7, 2006 9:18pm PT
Dear masadi:
Thank you for your reply. That is certainly heartfelt.
If you are doing so miserably, then all the more reason for you to get back to your muslim world and teach them all your values. Why do you not go back?
What is there for you in this US? You are a failure, and you love to teach a value system that is totally useless. Then, you should leave immediately, before a shrink is needed for your recovery.
{Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet,}
Not like most people from Pakistan, I disagree. I have seen those who came to be trained as a Jihadi to fight against the soviets, who were totally uneducated work two jobs, but not those who have established degrees from US.
So what has gone wrong with you. Besides, what is happening to those checks from the sale of your books? Maybe you need a marketing guy like Hamid, or tahmed, or myself, to set your life straight.
But, you must have to love this country first. Can you do that?
{ if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job, given the nature of the new low paying jobs being created-}
Now, here you are not allowing God to take care of your kid`s future. Do you not believe in your own rhetoric. How strange?
{ fortunately for now, I end up with a surplus, so I can buy more non-government cheese. That is the reality for most in the mass society in the usa.}
So, you are doing just fine. Good for you, and hopefully you reach the American dream. But, please spare us with your anti-west rhetoric.
Have you ever thought about getting employed as an HR person? I believe that this is an up an coming filed, with so much lack of talent going on in the west, and with your degree in sociology, you are a good fit in hiring for some company.
Please take good care of yourself, since I truly enjoy your posts.
Respectfully submitted,
Dear masadi:
Thank you for your reply. That is certainly heartfelt.
If you are doing so miserably, then all the more reason for you to get back to your muslim world and teach them all your values. Why do you not go back?
What is there for you in this US? You are a failure, and you love to teach a value system that is totally useless. Then, you should leave immediately, before a shrink is needed for your recovery.
{Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet,}
Not like most people from Pakistan, I disagree. I have seen those who came to be trained as a Jihadi to fight against the soviets, who were totally uneducated work two jobs, but not those who have established degrees from US.
So what has gone wrong with you. Besides, what is happening to those checks from the sale of your books? Maybe you need a marketing guy like Hamid, or tahmed, or myself, to set your life straight.
But, you must have to love this country first. Can you do that?
{ if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job, given the nature of the new low paying jobs being created-}
Now, here you are not allowing God to take care of your kid`s future. Do you not believe in your own rhetoric. How strange?
{ fortunately for now, I end up with a surplus, so I can buy more non-government cheese. That is the reality for most in the mass society in the usa.}
So, you are doing just fine. Good for you, and hopefully you reach the American dream. But, please spare us with your anti-west rhetoric.
Have you ever thought about getting employed as an HR person? I believe that this is an up an coming filed, with so much lack of talent going on in the west, and with your degree in sociology, you are a good fit in hiring for some company.
Please take good care of yourself, since I truly enjoy your posts.
Respectfully submitted,
#125 Posted by ballukhan on October 8, 2006 6:42:09 am
the one eyed hook is certainly back making empty claims about `victory`.............wait till he gets incarcerated for incitement by the civil institutions of liberal democracies.......
#124 Posted by masadi on October 8, 2006 6:15:07 am
tahmed writes <<< That is injustice!! >>>
What would a supporter of colonization, one who looks over the Atlantic Slave Trade and sees Western morality in it, one who supported the barbarous Iraq war, and supported Israel and the US in the recent destruction of Lebanon, know about justice?
What would a supporter of colonization, one who looks over the Atlantic Slave Trade and sees Western morality in it, one who supported the barbarous Iraq war, and supported Israel and the US in the recent destruction of Lebanon, know about justice?
#123 Posted by tahmed32 on October 8, 2006 5:02:46 am
behram: you write to masadi `` no free government free cheese for your infested intellect. ``
That is injustice!! :-)
That is injustice!! :-)
#122 Posted by ballukhan on October 7, 2006 11:57:40 pm
Re: # 121
``as you can see the balance has been restored and exceeded on chowk, the bigots that were having a free run here before are losing on every front and are in retreat. Soon their masters will lay down their arms before the people and justice will rule, inshallah.:
Wow!! The Abu Hamza is back claiming ``victory``.......................and boasting of a future `victory`` ss well..........................Boy.....this guy is really keen to meet the black eyed one .............
``as you can see the balance has been restored and exceeded on chowk, the bigots that were having a free run here before are losing on every front and are in retreat. Soon their masters will lay down their arms before the people and justice will rule, inshallah.:
Wow!! The Abu Hamza is back claiming ``victory``.......................and boasting of a future `victory`` ss well..........................Boy.....this guy is really keen to meet the black eyed one .............
#121 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 10:29:58 pm
Zeemax mian as you can see the balance has been restored and exceeded on chowk, the bigots that were having a free run here before are losing on every front and are in retreat. Soon their masters will lay down their arms before the people and justice will rule, inshallah.
#120 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 10:16:53 pm
....contd..... I mean you would have more credibility in their eyes if you had fibbed and said you had not one but two sprinkler guys for your vast lawns!
#119 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 10:14:43 pm
#117 by masadi
Asadi Saheb, God bless you for this personal account ... but do you realize you may have given more ammunition to these low-lifes for Ad-Hominem attacks on you?
Asadi Saheb, God bless you for this personal account ... but do you realize you may have given more ammunition to these low-lifes for Ad-Hominem attacks on you?
#118 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 9:58:13 pm
bjkumar writes <<< Any religion can have that type of situation, true! The unique thing that appears (at least to this ignorant individual) to be the case for your religion is that it discourages you from questioning whether it is okay to make your own judgment >>>
This is utter and total BS. If there ever was a ``religion`` that is based on reason and questioning and logical argumentation, that ``religion`` is Islam. Those who have not read the Quran, and those who have dogmatized Islam because of illiteracy are the only ones who will make such an ignorant comment. Regarding his other assertion where he states ,
<<< And when there is any confrontation – the vast majority of Muslims take sides not based on the merits of any particular issue – but on the basis of whether one side is Muslim or not! >>>
You mean to say if Pakistan and India confront each other, the Hindu masses stop and do some thinking about whom to side with? You apparently have no clue about crowd behavior, the crowd develops dynamic norms- contrary to all reason- of its own, this is regardless of the label or the belief the crowd carried before, whenever attacked by an external or hostile enemy, in group solidarity grows, there is no court of justice mentality shown by any crowd whatsoever so if Muslims behave that way, it is quite normal.
You on the other hand, by having only negative things to say about Islam, on all occassions, acting as an individual sitting at your computer display all signs of the ``us versus them`` mentality and bigotry.
This is utter and total BS. If there ever was a ``religion`` that is based on reason and questioning and logical argumentation, that ``religion`` is Islam. Those who have not read the Quran, and those who have dogmatized Islam because of illiteracy are the only ones who will make such an ignorant comment. Regarding his other assertion where he states ,
<<< And when there is any confrontation – the vast majority of Muslims take sides not based on the merits of any particular issue – but on the basis of whether one side is Muslim or not! >>>
You mean to say if Pakistan and India confront each other, the Hindu masses stop and do some thinking about whom to side with? You apparently have no clue about crowd behavior, the crowd develops dynamic norms- contrary to all reason- of its own, this is regardless of the label or the belief the crowd carried before, whenever attacked by an external or hostile enemy, in group solidarity grows, there is no court of justice mentality shown by any crowd whatsoever so if Muslims behave that way, it is quite normal.
You on the other hand, by having only negative things to say about Islam, on all occassions, acting as an individual sitting at your computer display all signs of the ``us versus them`` mentality and bigotry.
#117 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 9:18:05 pm
behram writes <<< And yes, their is no free government free cheese for your infested intellect. >>>
For the record, I have not consumed one penny worth of government benefits, even when I was out of a job for six months one time, on the contrary they cut over 22% of my gross pay (which falls in the lower 25% of pay scales by the way) in some tax or the other including this damn city that takes more taxes than state tax. Neither do I live in a basement. I rent a nicely furnished room, even have my own private bathroom, paid for by my hard work in a dead end job, where the mobility of white males with lesser education is much quicker, with a second part time teaching job. Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job, given the nature of the new low paying jobs being created- fortunately for now, I end up with a surplus, so I can buy more non-government cheese. That is the reality for most in the mass society in the usa.
For the record, I have not consumed one penny worth of government benefits, even when I was out of a job for six months one time, on the contrary they cut over 22% of my gross pay (which falls in the lower 25% of pay scales by the way) in some tax or the other including this damn city that takes more taxes than state tax. Neither do I live in a basement. I rent a nicely furnished room, even have my own private bathroom, paid for by my hard work in a dead end job, where the mobility of white males with lesser education is much quicker, with a second part time teaching job. Like most others in America, I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, if I was unfortunate to have a family here and godforbid a kid, I would fall below the poverty line for sure as many do, or would have to pick up a third job, given the nature of the new low paying jobs being created- fortunately for now, I end up with a surplus, so I can buy more non-government cheese. That is the reality for most in the mass society in the usa.
#116 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 9:02:29 pm
behram writes <<< You are a liar, a deceiver, a trickster, and you would scoop so low. >>>
There you have it boys and girls, take your pick again, facts versus the only response they have of Ad Hominem and insults. Like echo sahib has said, it is very gratifying to hear these kinds of responses from these damn fools, that tells me they have nothing except bs to sell.
There you have it boys and girls, take your pick again, facts versus the only response they have of Ad Hominem and insults. Like echo sahib has said, it is very gratifying to hear these kinds of responses from these damn fools, that tells me they have nothing except bs to sell.
#115 Posted by echoboom on October 7, 2006 8:57:28 pm
Ramdhan observance and celebration
The joy of Diversity & pluralism.
-
The joy of Diversity & pluralism.
-
Islam`s appeal spans many cultures
CHINO - When the sun finally sets and the fast of Ramadan ends for the day, Luqman Malik joins the faithful at the Baitul Hameed Mosque for a feast of chicken, rice, potatoes.
And Mexican food.
Islam is a tapestry, Imam Shamshad A. Nasir says, a religion that attracts men and women of many cultures.
More Latinos are embracing the faith, said Hussam Ayloush, a Corona man who is spokesman for the Southern California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. While he has has no exact numbers, he said the shift is clear.
``Go to the mosque in downtown L.A. and you`ll see a large number of Latinos,`` he said. ``People are seeking a place where they feel the spirit of peace.``
He said they are willing to make sacrifices to find that peace.
That includes Latinos like Malik, a Catholic by birth, who found solace in Islam in the days after Sept. 11, 2001. He was in college, and didn`t like the way his Muslim friends were being treated. ``People were saying they were not good people,`` he said. ``That`s not true.``
It made him want to learn more about Islam, and he found himself drawn to its teachings and traditions. After much study and thought, the 26-year-old Chino man decided to convert. Malik comes from a traditional Catholic family.
For complete reading of this uplifting article:
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_4454856
And Mexican food.
Islam is a tapestry, Imam Shamshad A. Nasir says, a religion that attracts men and women of many cultures.
More Latinos are embracing the faith, said Hussam Ayloush, a Corona man who is spokesman for the Southern California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. While he has has no exact numbers, he said the shift is clear.
``Go to the mosque in downtown L.A. and you`ll see a large number of Latinos,`` he said. ``People are seeking a place where they feel the spirit of peace.``
He said they are willing to make sacrifices to find that peace.
That includes Latinos like Malik, a Catholic by birth, who found solace in Islam in the days after Sept. 11, 2001. He was in college, and didn`t like the way his Muslim friends were being treated. ``People were saying they were not good people,`` he said. ``That`s not true.``
It made him want to learn more about Islam, and he found himself drawn to its teachings and traditions. After much study and thought, the 26-year-old Chino man decided to convert. Malik comes from a traditional Catholic family.
For complete reading of this uplifting article:
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_4454856
#114 Posted by Behram1 on October 7, 2006 7:27:10 pm
Re: # 113 by masadi on October 7, 2006 7:01pm PT
Dear masadi:
As usual you are off base with your diatribe. You must not have read the latest edition of The Economist wherein they cite the lack of talents in the coming decades. All they mention is for intellectuals to develop their knowledge for the new global world. And yes, their is no free government free cheese for your infested intellect.
{That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female.}
How sad that you are deceiving your future generation into hatred for the enlightened. You are a liar, a deceiver, a trickster, and you would scoop so low. Shame on you.
{Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse.}
Not only that, this chowk has debuncked your intellect, because you had none. All you had was your hatred towards anything that is not within your myopic view of this world. Most of us were successful in destroying your theory of elitism, and your crazy notion of conspiracy against the muslim world. You are naked on this chowk and you have no clothes whatsoever to hide.
{Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth... } Yes, I hope they will work towards enlightenment, and not be stuck with some ill conceived intellect like yours.
Respectfully submitted,
Dear masadi:
As usual you are off base with your diatribe. You must not have read the latest edition of The Economist wherein they cite the lack of talents in the coming decades. All they mention is for intellectuals to develop their knowledge for the new global world. And yes, their is no free government free cheese for your infested intellect.
{That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female.}
How sad that you are deceiving your future generation into hatred for the enlightened. You are a liar, a deceiver, a trickster, and you would scoop so low. Shame on you.
{Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse.}
Not only that, this chowk has debuncked your intellect, because you had none. All you had was your hatred towards anything that is not within your myopic view of this world. Most of us were successful in destroying your theory of elitism, and your crazy notion of conspiracy against the muslim world. You are naked on this chowk and you have no clothes whatsoever to hide.
{Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth... } Yes, I hope they will work towards enlightenment, and not be stuck with some ill conceived intellect like yours.
Respectfully submitted,
#113 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 7:01:23 pm
hamid writes <<< boy`s and girls, don`t listen to masadi, listen to me, if you want to live the american dream instead of living in a basement and eating government cheese >>>
By all means boys and girls, listen to hamid if you want to gamble your lives away, you have a greater chance of riches in this system by pulling yourself out of school and trying your luck at the lottery than you will ever have to reach the top through your hard work. That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female. Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse. Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth...
By all means boys and girls, listen to hamid if you want to gamble your lives away, you have a greater chance of riches in this system by pulling yourself out of school and trying your luck at the lottery than you will ever have to reach the top through your hard work. That is how this society is rigged. Use the facts and learn or you`ll be chasing a pipe dream with lots of disappointment at the end, especially if you happen to be non-white and female. Of course the geniuses like hamid and tahmed will tell you the shape of the basement I reside in and the kind of food I eat, their only argument against Krugman was that he is a `liberal`, labels not facts guide their discourse. Take your pick, Fact of a caste society or the Horatio Alger Myth...
#112 Posted by bjkumar on October 7, 2006 6:55:15 pm
Look yaaran, since Fiza did not answer, let me just have my say.
(Note: I did not have the patience to read all the interacts (I am getting tired of the same old crap, anyway), therefore, my apology if any parts of this are already covered.)
There is nothing wrong with a bit of fasting and a bit of discipline associated with that fasting – it is perhaps, medically speaking, even beneficial to the body (and those who have read some of my i-logs are aware that the Lord knows even I could lose a few pounds – which is a LOT harder than it looks)!
Gandhiji did fasting. Lalbahadur Shastri did it. Countless number of Hindus and those of other faith do it all over the world – on a variety of occasions!
In the same vein, there is nothing wrong in being faithful in your own heart and mind to whatever bhagwan or allah you guys and girls believe in – hey, whatever floats your boat! – even Angelina Jolie (or perhaps in an extremely depraved situation, perhaps even the Versey!) – hey, by all means feel free to go do your ibaadat, or bhajan, or saashtanga pranama or even a full-fledged routine of circus acrobatics – if that is what pleases you.
There is nothing wrong with any of that, because it is harmless stuff and it only affects the individual.
The problem starts when a bunch of guys (or gals) get together and start reinforcing each others’ bhakti streak. Then it seems to become a peer pressure thing – and somehow, each one tries to outdo the other!
What one feels inside oneself ceases to matter – it takes the back seat and in fact it becomes even unnecessary. The desire to show off that you are more “faithful” than the rest seems to start predominating!
And before one knows it – it becomes a clique – and those who are not members of the clique are looked down upon. And then people start whipping themselves to “prove” their excessive religiosity. And then they start killing people to prove that they are true to their faith. And it becomes an “us versus them” thing.
And from clique, it becomes a larger community – it engulfs whole societies and nations!
It becomes “us” Muslims versus “those” kafirs!
At that point, it is only a matter of time before confrontation develops! Name me one country which has a sizeable Muslim population and there is no confrontation with other religions (unless those other religions have already been chased away)?
And when there is any confrontation – the vast majority of Muslims take sides not based on the merits of any particular issue – but on the basis of whether one side is Muslim or not!
Any religion can have that type of situation, true! The unique thing that appears (at least to this ignorant individual) to be the case for your religion is that it discourages you from questioning whether it is okay to make your own judgment – you practically have no leeway on that score. Therefore, Muslim scholars that show even the slightest degree of openness of ideas are sidelined faster than a racehorse with a broken leg.
For over a year I have been asking this crowd – is there or is not there a “Muslims are exclusive” feeling among Muslims – especially Pakistani Muslims? A very simple question!
Nobody dares to give me a straight answer – even though the answer is so darn starkly obvious – are you or aren’t you all the children of a people who disowned your own motherland of birth to plead allegiance to a religion from far-away lands?!
You guys and gals went and built up a whole country strictly based on your “golden” religion! Yet all kinds of atrocities keep occurring in that “holy” land of yours – where is the “religion” that you keep feeling so exclusive about figuring in all of this?
You wear this “religion” shawl on rather tightly – and make too much a virtue out of being a Muslim – at least on the outside. Just the way for some people patriotism is the last refuge – for you guys and gals, your religion seems to have become the last refuge. However, for those people all over the world for whom patriotism is the last refuge – they are called scoundrels! But when it comes to Pakistan – if you started admitting that – it seems to demolish too many underlying myths behind your very existence – so everybody wimps out – dear Fiza being the latest namoona!
And yet you all wonder why so many people all over the world mistrust you?!! And then start convincing yourself – hey, there must be a conspiracy against Muslims!
I mean, come on – how dense can one be to understand the irony of such a question?!!!
#111 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 5:06:39 pm
Re: # 108
hehehe just a funny incident i wanted to relate got nothing to do with the article
in college one of my best friends was a tamil and this one day we were talking about how my parents were from india originally...she is like where in india..and i usually like telling ppl just to see the reaction from them so i told her...she goes ``whattt call urself pakistani and we indians will love u but dont say bihar again...ure not bihari!! ure pakistanii!!``
hehe then next yr with this other best friend of mine from delhi, i was like ``u dont wanna know where my parents are from?`` she is all like ``haha how bad can it be...are they from bihar??``
hahah lol
(sorry for wasting time...just thought it was funny)
hehehe just a funny incident i wanted to relate got nothing to do with the article
in college one of my best friends was a tamil and this one day we were talking about how my parents were from india originally...she is like where in india..and i usually like telling ppl just to see the reaction from them so i told her...she goes ``whattt call urself pakistani and we indians will love u but dont say bihar again...ure not bihari!! ure pakistanii!!``
hehe then next yr with this other best friend of mine from delhi, i was like ``u dont wanna know where my parents are from?`` she is all like ``haha how bad can it be...are they from bihar??``
hahah lol
(sorry for wasting time...just thought it was funny)
#110 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 5:01:07 pm
Re: # 109
it happens every weekend during ramadan outside my house and also a couple of other places near my house...i am sorry to hear u havent seen been seeing it more recently
it happens every weekend during ramadan outside my house and also a couple of other places near my house...i am sorry to hear u havent seen been seeing it more recently
#109 Posted by aquaris on October 7, 2006 4:26:13 pm
Re: # 107
sorry to ........interupt...
if my memory serves me right......
this Cricket in Ramzan..... started with Super Cup.... which was played during Ramzan..at the Eidgah ground , Nazimabad...... Maybe back in 80 or 81.
it was a 20 over each side affair, played on cemented wicket, .......and players like
Taslim Arif, Afzal Ahmed, Asif Mohammed, Liaqat Ali, .....etc....etc... were a regular feature.... it used to be played after 3 PM.... and usually used to end ...just before
Iftari..... and it was played with proper Hard Ball.....
....then some how....... it took to streets.......
and they started playing at night...... the first One I remembered was played in North Nazimabad. `` A `` Block``........ and it was played with Tennis Ball...... taped with cellophene to make if faster and bouncy........with Lights being arranged from the houses..... around the street , on which it was played...
then it took on.... and became a craze....and they started playing it every where....
it would normally start after ......`` Taraweeh ``.....and continue till the time of `` Sehri ``
at least till 1988 .....when things were relatively calmer in Karachi.....
Now I have rarely seen ........ such cricket being played...in karachi...
sorry to ........interupt...
if my memory serves me right......
this Cricket in Ramzan..... started with Super Cup.... which was played during Ramzan..at the Eidgah ground , Nazimabad...... Maybe back in 80 or 81.
it was a 20 over each side affair, played on cemented wicket, .......and players like
Taslim Arif, Afzal Ahmed, Asif Mohammed, Liaqat Ali, .....etc....etc... were a regular feature.... it used to be played after 3 PM.... and usually used to end ...just before
Iftari..... and it was played with proper Hard Ball.....
....then some how....... it took to streets.......
and they started playing at night...... the first One I remembered was played in North Nazimabad. `` A `` Block``........ and it was played with Tennis Ball...... taped with cellophene to make if faster and bouncy........with Lights being arranged from the houses..... around the street , on which it was played...
then it took on.... and became a craze....and they started playing it every where....
it would normally start after ......`` Taraweeh ``.....and continue till the time of `` Sehri ``
at least till 1988 .....when things were relatively calmer in Karachi.....
Now I have rarely seen ........ such cricket being played...in karachi...
#108 Posted by harimau on October 7, 2006 4:20:02 pm
Ref FizaPK #72
[Re: # 69
hahaha lolz u just lost out there sweetie...how do u know im not bihari hahaha...
well i am and very muchhhh pakistani indeed!!!]
Sweetheart, here was Zeemax waxing poetic about [If Fiza`s article is not about the love, unity and beauty of those of the Ummah, what else is it about?]
My point was about the couple of hundred thousand Biharis stranded in Bangladesh for 35 years now who want to exercise their rights as citizens of Pakistan to go live in Pakistan.
Zeemax would have nothing to say about that.
Just like Zeemax had nothing to say (on another board) about why Hindu Sindhis and Punjabis were driven out of Pakistan while shedding tears about how European Jews drove the Palestinians out from what is now Israel.
[and sorry u know what maybe ure sensitive cos i didnt mention indians there...an edited version of this article thats published every where else has indians too....i wrote the article in a hurry ... sowwieeee...]
You SHOULD have mentioned Indian Muslims. It would have soothed the soul of a guy named bulleya (otherwise known as Chowk`s Military Correspondent as well as Business Sections Editor with Special Interest in IT) who has been unable to find Indian Muslims anywhere in the USA (actually, the Bay Area was his former location) or Canada (his current).
Happy fasting. Or breaking the fast. Or whatever! One doesn`t know what to wish when the other party is experiencing severe pangs of hunger.
PS. Considering that such a nice person as you have come out of Bihar, I apologize for my earlier comments elsewhere that Bihar ought to be nuked. bjkumar, please note this.
[Re: # 69
hahaha lolz u just lost out there sweetie...how do u know im not bihari hahaha...
well i am and very muchhhh pakistani indeed!!!]
Sweetheart, here was Zeemax waxing poetic about [If Fiza`s article is not about the love, unity and beauty of those of the Ummah, what else is it about?]
My point was about the couple of hundred thousand Biharis stranded in Bangladesh for 35 years now who want to exercise their rights as citizens of Pakistan to go live in Pakistan.
Zeemax would have nothing to say about that.
Just like Zeemax had nothing to say (on another board) about why Hindu Sindhis and Punjabis were driven out of Pakistan while shedding tears about how European Jews drove the Palestinians out from what is now Israel.
[and sorry u know what maybe ure sensitive cos i didnt mention indians there...an edited version of this article thats published every where else has indians too....i wrote the article in a hurry ... sowwieeee...]
You SHOULD have mentioned Indian Muslims. It would have soothed the soul of a guy named bulleya (otherwise known as Chowk`s Military Correspondent as well as Business Sections Editor with Special Interest in IT) who has been unable to find Indian Muslims anywhere in the USA (actually, the Bay Area was his former location) or Canada (his current).
Happy fasting. Or breaking the fast. Or whatever! One doesn`t know what to wish when the other party is experiencing severe pangs of hunger.
PS. Considering that such a nice person as you have come out of Bihar, I apologize for my earlier comments elsewhere that Bihar ought to be nuked. bjkumar, please note this.
#107 Posted by anil on October 7, 2006 4:12:55 pm
Fiza:
Your memories must be very beautiful to have expressed them from Karachi to Berkely. Mid night cricket must be wonderful to watch.
Anil
Your memories must be very beautiful to have expressed them from Karachi to Berkely. Mid night cricket must be wonderful to watch.
Anil
#106 Posted by aquaris on October 7, 2006 4:06:11 pm
Ramzan
just an excercise in being Good...... at attempt on trying to be good, disciplined, and of course........ with thoughts.......or having earned a few SAWABs.....
Personally I don`t care about EARNINGs .....SAWABs ... this way... but any how...
How much goodness it brings out , out of you.... depends on How really good you are....in the first place.....!!
...any artificiallity............ will show through..... only you will have to look at .....it.....
Properly....
#105 Posted by JayJay on October 7, 2006 3:53:57 pm
``Ramadan`` or ``Ramzan`` -- 99% Pakis still call it Ramzan. Why Arabicise away your lives?
``Reverted to Islam`` -- what a crap? It only reflects compulsive self-righteousness of the Muslims all over the world.
``Reverted to Islam`` -- what a crap? It only reflects compulsive self-righteousness of the Muslims all over the world.
#103 Posted by saminasha2 on October 7, 2006 12:39:37 pm
hamid sahib,
salam! nice to see you here in support as well.
salam! nice to see you here in support as well.
#102 Posted by saminasha2 on October 7, 2006 12:38:24 pm
Re: # 100
You are welcome, young lady. Don`t pay any attention to the lads on this board-they are just miffed that you did such a fine job in your representation.
You are welcome, young lady. Don`t pay any attention to the lads on this board-they are just miffed that you did such a fine job in your representation.
#101 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 12:36:22 pm
Re: # 98
saminasha,
...... nice to see you here again - i agree this indeed is lovely ......... i just happen to be the grinch who stole ramadan ........
Every Who
Down in Who-ville
Liked Christmas a lot...
But the Grinch,
Who lived just North of Who-ville,
Did NOT!
The Grinch hated Christmas!
The whole Christmas season!
Now, please don`t ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be that his head wasn`t screwed on quite right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were to tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.
But,
Whatever the reason,
His heart or his shoes,
He stood there on Christmas Eve, hating the Whos,
Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grinchy frown
At the warm lighted windows below in their town.
For he knew every Who down in Who-ville beneath
Was busy now, hanging a mistleoe wreath.
saminasha,
...... nice to see you here again - i agree this indeed is lovely ......... i just happen to be the grinch who stole ramadan ........
Every Who
Down in Who-ville
Liked Christmas a lot...
But the Grinch,
Who lived just North of Who-ville,
Did NOT!
The Grinch hated Christmas!
The whole Christmas season!
Now, please don`t ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be that his head wasn`t screwed on quite right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were to tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.
But,
Whatever the reason,
His heart or his shoes,
He stood there on Christmas Eve, hating the Whos,
Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grinchy frown
At the warm lighted windows below in their town.
For he knew every Who down in Who-ville beneath
Was busy now, hanging a mistleoe wreath.
#100 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 12:33:56 pm
Re: # 98
thank you soo much...thats really sweet of u:)
thank you soo much...thats really sweet of u:)
#99 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 12:28:45 pm
Re: # 95
fiza,
.... look, at an individual level you, i and uncle bjkumar can get along just fine - he can splatter us with paint on his silly holi-day and we can splatter him with sheep`s blood on ours, and i am sure it will be okay ............. but it doesn`t work that way on a collective basis - he belongs to the great hindoo civilization and we, unfortunately, now belong to the islamic civilization which is based on an undying belief that we are better than the kafirs, the infidels and those who have perverted god`s word ............ we, like the bloody christians, do claim to be the one true faith to which all humans must adhere or rot in hell for ever and ever .........
........... so regardless of how well you got along with your heathen friends in berkley, the battle lines have been drawn and it will be a long and bloody war ............ but don`t let that ugly thought keep you from enjoying the `blessings` of ramzan - actually, ramadan is more appropriate because it cuts across the artificial geographic boundaries that divide the ummah ..............
fiza,
.... look, at an individual level you, i and uncle bjkumar can get along just fine - he can splatter us with paint on his silly holi-day and we can splatter him with sheep`s blood on ours, and i am sure it will be okay ............. but it doesn`t work that way on a collective basis - he belongs to the great hindoo civilization and we, unfortunately, now belong to the islamic civilization which is based on an undying belief that we are better than the kafirs, the infidels and those who have perverted god`s word ............ we, like the bloody christians, do claim to be the one true faith to which all humans must adhere or rot in hell for ever and ever .........
........... so regardless of how well you got along with your heathen friends in berkley, the battle lines have been drawn and it will be a long and bloody war ............ but don`t let that ugly thought keep you from enjoying the `blessings` of ramzan - actually, ramadan is more appropriate because it cuts across the artificial geographic boundaries that divide the ummah ..............
#98 Posted by saminasha2 on October 7, 2006 12:28:07 pm
Fiza,
This was wonderful to read because of how affirming it was-from the many levels of engagement you describe:
1. your individual observation-the turkey sandwich in the dorm fridge at 4 am
2. the memories of collective observation among fam in Pakistan-the celebratory aspect from your home to the city-fabulous detail with cricket being played at night
3. your girlfriends and your collective observation in prayer and iftar
4. the support and generosity of your acquaintances-from prof to cook.
The level of detail in the images you choose (i.e. bangles, cold almond milk, praying in the hallways) is also a very strong component of this piece.
Finally, I appreciate the introspection of this piece; what really speaks to me is how Ramadan is a month that based on discipline, compassion, empathy and love. We rarely hear enough about these qualities-and your discussion is genuine and authentic. Its probably one of the lovliest pieces I`ve read on chowk.
This was wonderful to read because of how affirming it was-from the many levels of engagement you describe:
1. your individual observation-the turkey sandwich in the dorm fridge at 4 am
2. the memories of collective observation among fam in Pakistan-the celebratory aspect from your home to the city-fabulous detail with cricket being played at night
3. your girlfriends and your collective observation in prayer and iftar
4. the support and generosity of your acquaintances-from prof to cook.
The level of detail in the images you choose (i.e. bangles, cold almond milk, praying in the hallways) is also a very strong component of this piece.
Finally, I appreciate the introspection of this piece; what really speaks to me is how Ramadan is a month that based on discipline, compassion, empathy and love. We rarely hear enough about these qualities-and your discussion is genuine and authentic. Its probably one of the lovliest pieces I`ve read on chowk.
#97 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 11:57:59 am
........ i hate ramadan because it made mrs hamidm rather cranky when the girls and i had our lunch about an hour ago ........ for god`s sake ! ... it is not as if we went to morton`s steak house - all we had were 1.99 chicken chalupas from taco bell (with fire sauce) ......... so she stormed out to go shopping and will probably end up buying yet another pair of shoes to catch up imelda marcos ! ......... as my younger one said, ``what`s with her ! we didn`t ask her to fast ..... and how could she - it is homecoming today !`` ......... talk about a clash of civilizations : homecoming vs. ramadan - it is a tough one .............
....... starving yourself is highly overrated and not really recommended if you are a diabetic or a young girl suffering from anorexia ........... it also give you bad breath
#96 Posted by bjkumar on October 7, 2006 11:57:14 am
#95 Fiza
(You look about ready to wimp out, but let me try anyway.)
If you had done everything exactly the same way in life and not been a Muslim (and not done the Muslim-asociated rituals like the Ramadan) would you be a worse person than you are now?!!
Look into my eyes!
Look straight now - and give me a straight answer!
#95 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 11:52:25 am
Re: # 93
:) Hmm two points:
1) I am no one to decide who is better than the other...
2) Half the people i mentioned who were fasting with me and half the people i have not mentioned with me were not full ramadan time fasters either...i was just relaying how ramadan has impacted me...
PS: now if tomorrow i write about how much fun i had in my convent school or during the diwali celebrations at my college, doesnt really mean that people should wonder ``does celebrating diwali make u better than others`` .... ``does going to a convent school make u better than others``??
:) Hmm two points:
1) I am no one to decide who is better than the other...
2) Half the people i mentioned who were fasting with me and half the people i have not mentioned with me were not full ramadan time fasters either...i was just relaying how ramadan has impacted me...
PS: now if tomorrow i write about how much fun i had in my convent school or during the diwali celebrations at my college, doesnt really mean that people should wonder ``does celebrating diwali make u better than others`` .... ``does going to a convent school make u better than others``??
#94 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 11:43:17 am
Re: # 92
hehe no problem...i dont have any issues...
why are u assuming i dont use khudahafiz...im a khudahafiz fan...cos its farsi...we are not mispronouncing any thing here ;)
hehe no problem...i dont have any issues...
why are u assuming i dont use khudahafiz...im a khudahafiz fan...cos its farsi...we are not mispronouncing any thing here ;)
#93 Posted by bjkumar on October 7, 2006 11:36:21 am
Okay writer, serious this time!
(This is one of the better write-ups I have seen recently on this site.)
Now answer this.
Does fasting during Ramadan make you a better human being than those who do not?
If they are Muslims….
And if they are not!
Don’t wimp out on answering, now! None of the other stuff about “good deeds” and the like – we all know that!
Answer this and I will come up with the next zinger!
#92 Posted by Godot on October 7, 2006 11:16:42 am
Re: # 90
Fiza
Thank you for the explanation. However, I still like ``Ramzan`` and ``Khuda Hafiz.`` That`s how I left Pakistan and that`s how I still imagine it to be.
Fiza
Thank you for the explanation. However, I still like ``Ramzan`` and ``Khuda Hafiz.`` That`s how I left Pakistan and that`s how I still imagine it to be.
#91 Posted by echoboom on October 7, 2006 11:11:21 am
FizaPk:
AoA
Ramadhan Mubrook!
I am very happy to see your article here and value it even more after reading your interacts. Your clarification @90 shows your confidence, joy and pride as a muslim.
It is strange that when some Indians, for no fault of their own, cannot pronounce `Z` and utter it with a ``J`` sound some ``muslims`` here so haughtily. ridicule them. Now to the credit of those Indians, they never compound the issue by insisting on their ignorance & jahiliyaat and graciously remain silent.
Yet the Ba Ba Blackcksheep secularoons, simply because of their mega--inferiority complex, insist on continuing the wrong usage with impunity. Such scum have been found, in polite company, to make fun of those who pronounce `rendevouz` with all hard consonant sound [ & numerous such goraa-master words] and called them `urdu-medium` or `paindoo` [as if they were slurs--HAA HAAA]
Arabs have FOUR seemingly similar sounds like D`aad`s [we can`t write all of them in an intellectualy-famished language like english]. The others are Zoe, Zay, and Z`aal.
Of these three the D`aad sound is the most difficult and is not found in any other lamduage in the worls. The arabs actually becuase of their immense devotion & pride to their language
sometimes distinguished themselves from others by saying that they are the people of Da`aad.
It is so unfortunate that the Macaulay`s salve gene has so deeply permeated at the cellular level that instead of really getting upset at these self-loathing people I`ve started feeling sympathy & sorrow for them.
EXcept, that most of such kind have infested our policy-making arenas and are deluded about their ``educational`` level.
May Allah bless you and all your loved ones.
wassalaam.
AoA
Ramadhan Mubrook!
I am very happy to see your article here and value it even more after reading your interacts. Your clarification @90 shows your confidence, joy and pride as a muslim.
It is strange that when some Indians, for no fault of their own, cannot pronounce `Z` and utter it with a ``J`` sound some ``muslims`` here so haughtily. ridicule them. Now to the credit of those Indians, they never compound the issue by insisting on their ignorance & jahiliyaat and graciously remain silent.
Yet the Ba Ba Blackcksheep secularoons, simply because of their mega--inferiority complex, insist on continuing the wrong usage with impunity. Such scum have been found, in polite company, to make fun of those who pronounce `rendevouz` with all hard consonant sound [ & numerous such goraa-master words] and called them `urdu-medium` or `paindoo` [as if they were slurs--HAA HAAA]
Arabs have FOUR seemingly similar sounds like D`aad`s [we can`t write all of them in an intellectualy-famished language like english]. The others are Zoe, Zay, and Z`aal.
Of these three the D`aad sound is the most difficult and is not found in any other lamduage in the worls. The arabs actually becuase of their immense devotion & pride to their language
sometimes distinguished themselves from others by saying that they are the people of Da`aad.
It is so unfortunate that the Macaulay`s salve gene has so deeply permeated at the cellular level that instead of really getting upset at these self-loathing people I`ve started feeling sympathy & sorrow for them.
EXcept, that most of such kind have infested our policy-making arenas and are deluded about their ``educational`` level.
May Allah bless you and all your loved ones.
wassalaam.
#90 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 10:42:03 am
Re: # 89
thanku for the compliment:)
hmmm two reasons:
1) maybe cos its an arabic word and in arabic that particular letter is pronounced as D and not Z? Its just like if the whole world starts calling Pakistan - Bakistan just cos there is no P in arabic, why should we change an arabic word into urdu just cos we cant pronounce the letter the same way in urdu....
2) when u are on a world wide web internet site, where u hope that the readers are not just from pakistan then might as well use a terminology that is globally accepted and even in non-Muslim world.
Those are my guesses...could be personal preference really too
thanku for the compliment:)
hmmm two reasons:
1) maybe cos its an arabic word and in arabic that particular letter is pronounced as D and not Z? Its just like if the whole world starts calling Pakistan - Bakistan just cos there is no P in arabic, why should we change an arabic word into urdu just cos we cant pronounce the letter the same way in urdu....
2) when u are on a world wide web internet site, where u hope that the readers are not just from pakistan then might as well use a terminology that is globally accepted and even in non-Muslim world.
Those are my guesses...could be personal preference really too
#89 Posted by Godot on October 7, 2006 10:31:31 am
Fiza
Great write-up. Loved it! Very nostalgic. Brought back a lot of memories.
Just one question: why has ``Ramzan`` has turned to ``Ramadan`` for the Pakistanis?
#88 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 9:30:53 am
#87 by FizaPK
Actually everything BJ says is actually directed at `the Versey`, even though it may appear otherwise to mere mortals ... so you can ignore this one ...
Right BJ ? (Winking icon).
Actually everything BJ says is actually directed at `the Versey`, even though it may appear otherwise to mere mortals ... so you can ignore this one ...
Right BJ ? (Winking icon).
#87 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 9:17:45 am
Re: # 85
hehe what just happened in re#86 lol....
2nd arrow...aimed somewhere??!!? :)
hehe what just happened in re#86 lol....
2nd arrow...aimed somewhere??!!? :)
#86 Posted by bjkumar on October 7, 2006 8:44:06 am
Writer,
I think you got a problem if you are so STUCK UP in that one religious ritual that the whole world looks green! (And as per the write-up, it always looks greener on the OTHER side.)
No, I am not Islamophobic - like the Versey called me in her blogspot!
#85 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 8:35:31 am
See Fizapk? The first arrow ... !
#82 Dont make fun of the speech impediments of our arab brothers by mimicking them by saying Ramadan. :-)
Anything to shoot at ... LoL .... lexicon if nothing else ...
#82 Dont make fun of the speech impediments of our arab brothers by mimicking them by saying Ramadan. :-)
Anything to shoot at ... LoL .... lexicon if nothing else ...
#84 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 8:33:53 am
Re: # 82
hehe....acha jee uncle jee aenda ramzaan bolun gee jub urdu bolun gee....
here we are fighting the war against civilizations but we cant stand the word ramadan...
dont be so petty please...lekin ok point taken...i dont mind either...i just thot it wud reach to bigger audience since even goras call it ramadan not ramzan...but chaloo this is chowk not crossroads.com or something:)
ramzan it is!
hehe....acha jee uncle jee aenda ramzaan bolun gee jub urdu bolun gee....
here we are fighting the war against civilizations but we cant stand the word ramadan...
dont be so petty please...lekin ok point taken...i dont mind either...i just thot it wud reach to bigger audience since even goras call it ramadan not ramzan...but chaloo this is chowk not crossroads.com or something:)
ramzan it is!
#83 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 8:31:09 am
Re: # 81
i dont want anyone to ooh and aah over it...in fact i think its quite a cheesy article myself...i just submitted it cos i think there is nothing wrong in submitting what uve written and like irrespective of what others think abt it:)
but about the war on civilizations...yeah i talked about my first professor who made me feel strong on campus being a jew and my favorite professor happens to be a hindu actually...i was like shucks i wish i cud edit the article cos i missed out on typing it...reasong being i originally wrote this keeping my college magazine in mind and i didnt want her to feel singled out since she is the only hindu prof on campus...
anyways...i wonder where hamid jee got the idea that i wanted ppl to ooh aah over it...my comment was only trying to say that ppl have come up with real interesting pictures of me in their minds...and its interesting....see what i mean when ppl CHOOSE to hear what they WANT to hear:)
i dont want anyone to ooh and aah over it...in fact i think its quite a cheesy article myself...i just submitted it cos i think there is nothing wrong in submitting what uve written and like irrespective of what others think abt it:)
but about the war on civilizations...yeah i talked about my first professor who made me feel strong on campus being a jew and my favorite professor happens to be a hindu actually...i was like shucks i wish i cud edit the article cos i missed out on typing it...reasong being i originally wrote this keeping my college magazine in mind and i didnt want her to feel singled out since she is the only hindu prof on campus...
anyways...i wonder where hamid jee got the idea that i wanted ppl to ooh aah over it...my comment was only trying to say that ppl have come up with real interesting pictures of me in their minds...and its interesting....see what i mean when ppl CHOOSE to hear what they WANT to hear:)
#82 Posted by tahmed32 on October 7, 2006 8:29:27 am
Baeti Fiza writes a nice article about Ramzaan, and Uncle Zeemax and Uncle Hamidm start quarreling about the Future of the World while the neighbor starts screaming about how bad Islam is. Another day in the life of the dysfunctional chowk family.
btw, Fiza, the urdu word for Ramzaan has always been Ramzaan. Dont make fun of the speech impediments of our arab brothers by mimicking them by saying Ramadan. :-)
btw, Fiza, the urdu word for Ramzaan has always been Ramzaan. Dont make fun of the speech impediments of our arab brothers by mimicking them by saying Ramadan. :-)
#81 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 8:08:18 am
#79 by hamidm2
.....we have much bigger agendas like the war of civilizations....
Do you see at all any hint in this article as to the silliness of the `war of civilizations` ?
C`mon hamidm. Even you couldn`t have missed that ..... despite your Faux TV ...
.....we have much bigger agendas like the war of civilizations....
Do you see at all any hint in this article as to the silliness of the `war of civilizations` ?
C`mon hamidm. Even you couldn`t have missed that ..... despite your Faux TV ...
#80 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 8:03:15 am
...contd....
But don`t worry ... not many are here on weekends ... just the harmless types like hamidm2 and tahmeds ...
But don`t worry ... not many are here on weekends ... just the harmless types like hamidm2 and tahmeds ...
#79 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 8:02:57 am
Re: # 76
zeemax mian,
.......... this is a cute article about a personal experience and nobody will argue about it ......... i am sure the author is a fine young lady, but if she thinks that the dnizens of this chowk will just oooh and aaaah over it and then sit down for ftar with wine and cheese, she will be disappointed ........ we have much bigger agendas like the war of civilizations, world hunger, the elite theory, rewriting the koran, finding out what happened to anna nicole`s son, etc, etc ...........
zeemax mian,
.......... this is a cute article about a personal experience and nobody will argue about it ......... i am sure the author is a fine young lady, but if she thinks that the dnizens of this chowk will just oooh and aaaah over it and then sit down for ftar with wine and cheese, she will be disappointed ........ we have much bigger agendas like the war of civilizations, world hunger, the elite theory, rewriting the koran, finding out what happened to anna nicole`s son, etc, etc ...........
#78 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 8:01:41 am
#77 by FizaPK
LoL ... you just painted a bull`s eye on your back .....
LoL ... you just painted a bull`s eye on your back .....
#77 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 7:58:58 am
Re: # 76
aahhh shoots u didnt have to remind them that i sent a comment here :)
aahhh shoots u didnt have to remind them that i sent a comment here :)
#76 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 7:51:20 am
#75 by hamidm2
Actually, zakat should be recovered from every Muslim for running of the State and social development, PROVIDED there`re no other taxes. Zakat is State Revenue.
As for Pakistan, the whole thing of recovery or non-recovery of Zakat is a sham. Nothing much about it.
But stick to the subject, shall we? What`re your comments re #71 by the author?
Actually, zakat should be recovered from every Muslim for running of the State and social development, PROVIDED there`re no other taxes. Zakat is State Revenue.
As for Pakistan, the whole thing of recovery or non-recovery of Zakat is a sham. Nothing much about it.
But stick to the subject, shall we? What`re your comments re #71 by the author?
#75 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 7:44:18 am
Re: # 74
zeemax,
sam buys directly from the wineries and the distributors don`t like it - there is some sort of legal battle going on in in the state of washington (a communist state) ........ and this is all about ramadan for those of us who are trying to live on a limited budget during this holy month .......... since i don`t pay zakat, i don`t get free cheese ........... by the way, congratulations - paki banks have stopped the bedouin practice of deducting zakat from your bank account without you having to claim that you are a shia (or ahmedi) ....... this is real progress ............. jazak allah khair .........
zeemax,
sam buys directly from the wineries and the distributors don`t like it - there is some sort of legal battle going on in in the state of washington (a communist state) ........ and this is all about ramadan for those of us who are trying to live on a limited budget during this holy month .......... since i don`t pay zakat, i don`t get free cheese ........... by the way, congratulations - paki banks have stopped the bedouin practice of deducting zakat from your bank account without you having to claim that you are a shia (or ahmedi) ....... this is real progress ............. jazak allah khair .........
#74 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 7:34:57 am
#73 by hamidm2
....the only person being hurt is the distributor....
Nope. Like I said, the only one who`s being hurt is the labourer in the wineries. Distributors just work on margins. Whether prices go up or down, the margins don`t get squeezed; the wages at the manufacturers do.
But let`s stick to the article. (It`s still Ramzan BTW).
....the only person being hurt is the distributor....
Nope. Like I said, the only one who`s being hurt is the labourer in the wineries. Distributors just work on margins. Whether prices go up or down, the margins don`t get squeezed; the wages at the manufacturers do.
But let`s stick to the article. (It`s still Ramzan BTW).
#73 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 7:21:50 am
Re: # 70
zeemax,
all i know is that sam has a ramadan special where you can buy 12 bottles of greg norman estates shiraz for 119.99 - it would be about 15 bucks a bottle at your neighborhood grocery store ......... it is a decent inexpensive wine and goes well with government cheese at iftar ............. now tell me, how is he hurting anyone ?....... the wineries are happy, consumers are happy......... the only person being hurt is the distributor - the unislamic non-value adding middleman .........
ps. ....... i am trying my best to stick to the topic of ramadan (formerly known as ramzan)
zeemax,
all i know is that sam has a ramadan special where you can buy 12 bottles of greg norman estates shiraz for 119.99 - it would be about 15 bucks a bottle at your neighborhood grocery store ......... it is a decent inexpensive wine and goes well with government cheese at iftar ............. now tell me, how is he hurting anyone ?....... the wineries are happy, consumers are happy......... the only person being hurt is the distributor - the unislamic non-value adding middleman .........
ps. ....... i am trying my best to stick to the topic of ramadan (formerly known as ramzan)
#72 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 6:49:53 am
Re: # 69
hahaha lolz u just lost out there sweetie...how do u know im not bihari hahaha...
well i am and very muchhhh pakistani indeed!!!
and sorry u know what maybe ure sensitive cos i didnt mention indians there...an edited version of this article thats published every where else has indians too....i wrote the article in a hurry ... sowwieeee...
hahaha lolz u just lost out there sweetie...how do u know im not bihari hahaha...
well i am and very muchhhh pakistani indeed!!!
and sorry u know what maybe ure sensitive cos i didnt mention indians there...an edited version of this article thats published every where else has indians too....i wrote the article in a hurry ... sowwieeee...
#71 Posted by FizaPK on October 7, 2006 6:44:46 am
hey zeemax,
thank you for your interact and pointing things out...I was actually trying to get at what you just pointed out.
I actually enjoy reading the interacts here a lot cos I actually find em funny (not being sarcastic at all). Maybe some people are just here to chill and have a laugh at sending in funny interacts, thats why I don`t want to draw negative conclusions about any one. But I think what i enjoy the most is how easillyyyy people draw conclusions out here. Berkeley student, cant get Pakistan out of her, fundamentalist, music to the ritual lovers etc etc etc. Its the reason why I didn`t wanna reply to any of the interacts cos it was a good learning experience how from one writing people can draw so many interesting conclusions about someone else. It just comes down to show that all of us including myself probably have the habit of reading others with preconceptions in our minds and ideas we dont wanna change and stuck up beliefs so instead of hearing what others are saying, we hear what we ``choose`` to hear, and we ``interpret`` things how we ``choose`` them to be. And we all make the same mistakes so I don`t blame any one for that either - its just very funny and interesting to read it when its actually being said about u.
To masadi and you and others who are trying to defend the article, my idea is to just say what u want, those who wanna believe in it and go along with will do so, others will just keep getting the kicks out of it so its no point wasting ur energies on them. What surprises me about chowk is that i was expecting it to be one of those places where people can hold a decent discussion and comments on things...it seems more like one of those orkut communities where people just come and swear at each other and say mean things and leave. Result they just end up sounding funny, ridiculous, immature and really dumb. The smartest of u would be in my opinion those who just dont comment and dont come back to the interact if they dont like the article.
For example one of the interacts here said ``why do we have to hear this woman`s story`` - - i am here thinking why are u reading it to begin with...just sound sooo loserly...
Remember no one out here any one of the people who drop by here have no one to prove themselves to. If they have any thing to prove it gets proven itself:)
On a lighter note keep interacting, its not that bad...
(Shoots now i am in for some really ripping apart of this interact of mine:S )
PS: thanks to all of u who send in sweet notes of appreciation and to those who are standing up for this article:)
thank you for your interact and pointing things out...I was actually trying to get at what you just pointed out.
I actually enjoy reading the interacts here a lot cos I actually find em funny (not being sarcastic at all). Maybe some people are just here to chill and have a laugh at sending in funny interacts, thats why I don`t want to draw negative conclusions about any one. But I think what i enjoy the most is how easillyyyy people draw conclusions out here. Berkeley student, cant get Pakistan out of her, fundamentalist, music to the ritual lovers etc etc etc. Its the reason why I didn`t wanna reply to any of the interacts cos it was a good learning experience how from one writing people can draw so many interesting conclusions about someone else. It just comes down to show that all of us including myself probably have the habit of reading others with preconceptions in our minds and ideas we dont wanna change and stuck up beliefs so instead of hearing what others are saying, we hear what we ``choose`` to hear, and we ``interpret`` things how we ``choose`` them to be. And we all make the same mistakes so I don`t blame any one for that either - its just very funny and interesting to read it when its actually being said about u.
To masadi and you and others who are trying to defend the article, my idea is to just say what u want, those who wanna believe in it and go along with will do so, others will just keep getting the kicks out of it so its no point wasting ur energies on them. What surprises me about chowk is that i was expecting it to be one of those places where people can hold a decent discussion and comments on things...it seems more like one of those orkut communities where people just come and swear at each other and say mean things and leave. Result they just end up sounding funny, ridiculous, immature and really dumb. The smartest of u would be in my opinion those who just dont comment and dont come back to the interact if they dont like the article.
For example one of the interacts here said ``why do we have to hear this woman`s story`` - - i am here thinking why are u reading it to begin with...just sound sooo loserly...
Remember no one out here any one of the people who drop by here have no one to prove themselves to. If they have any thing to prove it gets proven itself:)
On a lighter note keep interacting, its not that bad...
(Shoots now i am in for some really ripping apart of this interact of mine:S )
PS: thanks to all of u who send in sweet notes of appreciation and to those who are standing up for this article:)
#70 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 6:42:15 am
56 by hamidm2
...how sam walton became the patriarch of the richest family in the world...
After Sam Walton had driven out small mom&pop retailers in his native areas by taking initial losses on sales prices and monopolized retail, he started to dictate his purchase price to his suppliers otherwise he wouldn`t carry their products. The suppliers had no choice but to comply to maintain their market presence even at a loss.
It carries on to this day. Walmart goes to manufacturers around the third-world and tells them what price, fair or unfair, or no shelf space for them. Manufacturers can`t cut on inputs nor utilities so they squeeze wages. That`s how Walmart grew so big. Through monopolizing and blackmail and bullying and nothing else, least of all any brilliance. Just wait till macacaland lets them in and you`ll see.
But of-course you already know that ... being an accomplished high-flying consultant.
...how sam walton became the patriarch of the richest family in the world...
After Sam Walton had driven out small mom&pop retailers in his native areas by taking initial losses on sales prices and monopolized retail, he started to dictate his purchase price to his suppliers otherwise he wouldn`t carry their products. The suppliers had no choice but to comply to maintain their market presence even at a loss.
It carries on to this day. Walmart goes to manufacturers around the third-world and tells them what price, fair or unfair, or no shelf space for them. Manufacturers can`t cut on inputs nor utilities so they squeeze wages. That`s how Walmart grew so big. Through monopolizing and blackmail and bullying and nothing else, least of all any brilliance. Just wait till macacaland lets them in and you`ll see.
But of-course you already know that ... being an accomplished high-flying consultant.
#69 Posted by harimau on October 7, 2006 6:32:30 am
Ref zeemax #68
[Read these words again:
4:40 in the morning and every house in the neighborhood had its lights switched on.
This year I learnt ... Ramadan is really about bringing one closer to the other...
Turkish friend Cana; half-Afghan half Spanish friend Krystle; most special friend Teresa – a 17 year old who officially reverted to Islam; my Yemeni friend Saba; Afghan friend of mine, Zarena; my Palestinian friend Manar; my Caucasian friend Anke; my African-American friends Nicole and Malaika; Africans and white Americans, Indonesians and Arabs, Persians, Indians and Pakistanis, Europeans and Asians, I miss seeing every one from all parts of the world and not noticing our differences.]
Ah yes.
And of course ``Kashmir Banega Pakistan``.
But not ``Bihari Banega Pakistani``.
[Read these words again:
4:40 in the morning and every house in the neighborhood had its lights switched on.
This year I learnt ... Ramadan is really about bringing one closer to the other...
Turkish friend Cana; half-Afghan half Spanish friend Krystle; most special friend Teresa – a 17 year old who officially reverted to Islam; my Yemeni friend Saba; Afghan friend of mine, Zarena; my Palestinian friend Manar; my Caucasian friend Anke; my African-American friends Nicole and Malaika; Africans and white Americans, Indonesians and Arabs, Persians, Indians and Pakistanis, Europeans and Asians, I miss seeing every one from all parts of the world and not noticing our differences.]
Ah yes.
And of course ``Kashmir Banega Pakistan``.
But not ``Bihari Banega Pakistani``.
#68 Posted by zeemax on October 7, 2006 6:26:28 am
I hastened to say thanks to Fiza right away after reading her article because she indeed caught the `spirit` of Ramzan, and has put it in words beutifully well.
After reading the responses, I see many interactors see it as celebrating rituals, some others see it as nostalgia, while still some others as usual just try to trivialize. Noone has complemented her profound self-discovery, which she has found fit to share even with such undeserving minds...
Read these words again:
4:40 in the morning and every house in the neighborhood had its lights switched on.
This year I learnt ... Ramadan is really about bringing one closer to the other...
Turkish friend Cana; half-Afghan half Spanish friend Krystle; most special friend Teresa – a 17 year old who officially reverted to Islam; my Yemeni friend Saba; Afghan friend of mine, Zarena; my Palestinian friend Manar; my Caucasian friend Anke; my African-American friends Nicole and Malaika; Africans and white Americans, Indonesians and Arabs, Persians, Indians and Pakistanis, Europeans and Asians, I miss seeing every one from all parts of the world and not noticing our differences. This year I realized Ramadan is absolutely beautiful!
If Fiza`s article is not about the love, unity and beauty of those of the Ummah, what else is it about?
But never mind .......!
After reading the responses, I see many interactors see it as celebrating rituals, some others see it as nostalgia, while still some others as usual just try to trivialize. Noone has complemented her profound self-discovery, which she has found fit to share even with such undeserving minds...
Read these words again:
4:40 in the morning and every house in the neighborhood had its lights switched on.
This year I learnt ... Ramadan is really about bringing one closer to the other...
Turkish friend Cana; half-Afghan half Spanish friend Krystle; most special friend Teresa – a 17 year old who officially reverted to Islam; my Yemeni friend Saba; Afghan friend of mine, Zarena; my Palestinian friend Manar; my Caucasian friend Anke; my African-American friends Nicole and Malaika; Africans and white Americans, Indonesians and Arabs, Persians, Indians and Pakistanis, Europeans and Asians, I miss seeing every one from all parts of the world and not noticing our differences. This year I realized Ramadan is absolutely beautiful!
If Fiza`s article is not about the love, unity and beauty of those of the Ummah, what else is it about?
But never mind .......!
#67 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 5:44:11 am
for those of you who don`t know, paul krugman is a left wing liberal `economist` who writes for the ny times and believes that the government should provide cheese to everyone - evn those who don`t like it ............he `teaches` at princeton and his friends include people like kwame appiah and cornel west, shameless black men who have want to keep their brothers in the hood dependent on food stamps while they themselves dine on sushi ........ masadi, ward churchill and other conspiracy theorists are among their disciples .........
#66 Posted by echoboom on October 7, 2006 5:37:26 am
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#64 Posted by hamidm2 on October 7, 2006 5:19:28 am
Re: # 60
another ramadan story (and they will keep on coming until masadi accepts the fact that instead of living off government cheese, he too can make it )
Mark Cuban was born in 1958 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to working class immigrants. He has described himself as a goofy-looking kid with funny teeth and large glasses who dreamed of becoming a pro basketball or baseball player. When he was 12, he started his first business selling garbage bags door-to-door. During his teenage years, he sold powdered milk, and even imported newspapers from Cleveland during a newspaper strike in Pittsburgh.
After graduating from Indiana University in 1981, Cuban moved to Dallas. Without any formal computer training whatsoever, he started MicroSolutions, a computer consulting business. In 1990 he sold the company to CompuServe and became a multi-millionaire.
In 1994, Cuban and friend Todd Wagner wanted to listen to Indiana Hoosiers basketball game broadcasts, but were unable to since they were hundreds of miles away in Dallas. After realizing that it could be accomplished over the Internet and that it might also be a great business venture, they invested $3,000 and went to work building AudioNet. The service enabled people to listen to radio broadcasts from across the country through the internet. In the late 1990s, the service grew in popularity and was renamed Broadcast.com. In 1999, Yahoo.com acquired Broadcast.com for $6 billion worth of stock and Cuban became a billionaire.
In 2000, Cuban bought the Dallas Mavericks franchise, considered at the time as one of the worst teams in the NBA.
takbeer !
next we will tell you stories of kids who were born in the 70`s and 80`s who have made it simply by working hard and refusing to blame `the man` ............ boy`s and girls, don`t listen to masadi, listen to me, if you want to live the american dream instead of living in a basement and eating government cheese
another ramadan story (and they will keep on coming until masadi accepts the fact that instead of living off government cheese, he too can make it )
Mark Cuban was born in 1958 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to working class immigrants. He has described himself as a goofy-looking kid with funny teeth and large glasses who dreamed of becoming a pro basketball or baseball player. When he was 12, he started his first business selling garbage bags door-to-door. During his teenage years, he sold powdered milk, and even imported newspapers from Cleveland during a newspaper strike in Pittsburgh.
After graduating from Indiana University in 1981, Cuban moved to Dallas. Without any formal computer training whatsoever, he started MicroSolutions, a computer consulting business. In 1990 he sold the company to CompuServe and became a multi-millionaire.
In 1994, Cuban and friend Todd Wagner wanted to listen to Indiana Hoosiers basketball game broadcasts, but were unable to since they were hundreds of miles away in Dallas. After realizing that it could be accomplished over the Internet and that it might also be a great business venture, they invested $3,000 and went to work building AudioNet. The service enabled people to listen to radio broadcasts from across the country through the internet. In the late 1990s, the service grew in popularity and was renamed Broadcast.com. In 1999, Yahoo.com acquired Broadcast.com for $6 billion worth of stock and Cuban became a billionaire.
In 2000, Cuban bought the Dallas Mavericks franchise, considered at the time as one of the worst teams in the NBA.
takbeer !
next we will tell you stories of kids who were born in the 70`s and 80`s who have made it simply by working hard and refusing to blame `the man` ............ boy`s and girls, don`t listen to masadi, listen to me, if you want to live the american dream instead of living in a basement and eating government cheese
#63 Posted by masadi on October 7, 2006 5:16:07 am
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#62 Posted by Ahadaustin on October 7, 2006 4:36:05 am
Few things in America, we normally like to enjoy in the Ramadan is the Dawn Parata, Rooafza, Pakola,Tulsi Panmasala and the 0.79 cents Mighty SHAN Malasa Oh man sometime I picture without Shan Masala how could we survived in this Fast Food Nation. I just remembered opening Roza in Export classes with water and Hershey`s. Really Miss Ramadan and it`s shopping in Karachi, Do they still have Dool walla shouting ``Jaag tay Rahooo`` ? ... Any way nice article :-)
Ahad
Ahad
#61 Posted by wasif2 on October 7, 2006 2:49:12 am
masadi.... i am still waiting in line.................
have you started going to a therapist ????
#60 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 11:52:08 pm
hamidm writes <<< Henry Ford was born July 30, 1863 in Wayne county, Michigan.....another ramadan story: how sam walton became the patriach of the richest family in the world >>>
It is quite pathetic how some idiots will go back to 1863 to explain today`s economic opportunities, when the shape and consolidation of the economy today is quite different. A name here a name there when the poor in this country not only are not getting enough to eat, going to schools that are more like prisons from whose graduates cannot manage to read a paragraph (much like many posters here), are dying at three times the rate, and this idiot wants us to believe that if they just work hard they can compete with the children of the wealth that go to the best schools have the best health care and later the best social networks to make them suceed. These horatio alger type tales are just tales and not much else, not only is much about the very rich hidden and obfuscated except for the romantic notion of the different jobs they worked, inter-class mobility is intergenerationally permanent in this society, that is not for one or two but for entire populations.
It is quite pathetic how some idiots will go back to 1863 to explain today`s economic opportunities, when the shape and consolidation of the economy today is quite different. A name here a name there when the poor in this country not only are not getting enough to eat, going to schools that are more like prisons from whose graduates cannot manage to read a paragraph (much like many posters here), are dying at three times the rate, and this idiot wants us to believe that if they just work hard they can compete with the children of the wealth that go to the best schools have the best health care and later the best social networks to make them suceed. These horatio alger type tales are just tales and not much else, not only is much about the very rich hidden and obfuscated except for the romantic notion of the different jobs they worked, inter-class mobility is intergenerationally permanent in this society, that is not for one or two but for entire populations.
#59 Posted by harimau on October 6, 2006 9:18:28 pm
Ref babyboom #58
[It is write-ups like this in the western press which are music to fundamentalists of every religion.....
Allah indeed works in mysterious ways.
and the mirzaoons alongwith all other Oons Oons are permitted their devil dance till their last hurrah!
The (Literal) Death of Secularism
From :USA Today.com
What`s the difference between Seattle and Salt Lake City? There are many differences, of course, but here`s one you might not know. In Seattle, there are nearly 45% more dogs than children. In Salt Lake City, there are nearly 19% more kids than dogs.This curious fact might at first seem trivial, but it reflects a much broader and little-noticed demographic trend that has deep implications for the future of global culture and politics. It`s not that people in a progressive city such as Seattle are so much fonder of dogs than are people in a conservative city such as Salt Lake City. It`s that progressives are so much less likely to have children.]
There is actually a different explanation why Salt Lake City parents have more children.
Salt Lake City is in Utah where Mormons live. You know, the people who make Muslims look good by marrying multiple wives. While Prophet Mohammad (May the fleas of a thousand camels infest his armpits) had only 20 wives and ordered Muslims to limit themselves to 4 wives, the Mormons have no limits. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, managed to convince at least the wife of one Apostle of the Church to marry him in secret. Brigham Young, who founded Salt Lake City, had a harem of 72 wives.
When you have three wives, it is necessary that you give each wife at least one child and preferably an equal number of children to each. That would explain why Salt Lake City has more kids than dogs.
Anyway, you might want to consider the freedom that the Mormon Church offers in terms of multiple wives and convert ; you cold then thumb your nose (or your dick) at those pious Muslims who, heeding Allah`s injunctions, limit themselves to four.
[It is write-ups like this in the western press which are music to fundamentalists of every religion.....
Allah indeed works in mysterious ways.
and the mirzaoons alongwith all other Oons Oons are permitted their devil dance till their last hurrah!
The (Literal) Death of Secularism
From :USA Today.com
What`s the difference between Seattle and Salt Lake City? There are many differences, of course, but here`s one you might not know. In Seattle, there are nearly 45% more dogs than children. In Salt Lake City, there are nearly 19% more kids than dogs.This curious fact might at first seem trivial, but it reflects a much broader and little-noticed demographic trend that has deep implications for the future of global culture and politics. It`s not that people in a progressive city such as Seattle are so much fonder of dogs than are people in a conservative city such as Salt Lake City. It`s that progressives are so much less likely to have children.]
There is actually a different explanation why Salt Lake City parents have more children.
Salt Lake City is in Utah where Mormons live. You know, the people who make Muslims look good by marrying multiple wives. While Prophet Mohammad (May the fleas of a thousand camels infest his armpits) had only 20 wives and ordered Muslims to limit themselves to 4 wives, the Mormons have no limits. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, managed to convince at least the wife of one Apostle of the Church to marry him in secret. Brigham Young, who founded Salt Lake City, had a harem of 72 wives.
When you have three wives, it is necessary that you give each wife at least one child and preferably an equal number of children to each. That would explain why Salt Lake City has more kids than dogs.
Anyway, you might want to consider the freedom that the Mormon Church offers in terms of multiple wives and convert ; you cold then thumb your nose (or your dick) at those pious Muslims who, heeding Allah`s injunctions, limit themselves to four.
#58 Posted by echoboom on October 6, 2006 8:40:57 pm
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#57 Posted by hamidm2 on October 6, 2006 8:38:04 pm
yet another ramadan story :
Henry Ford was born July 30, 1863 in Wayne county, Michigan. He was the son of Irish immigrants, William and Mary Ford, who had settled on a farm in Dearborn. In addition to helping his father with the harvest, Ford also attended school in a one-room schoolhouse. However, Ford disliked both school and farm life, and at age 16, he walked to Detroit in search of employment.
Ford was employed as an apprentice in a machine shop, where he learned about the internal combustion engine. After several years of learning his trade, Ford returned to the family farm and worked part-time for the Westinghouse Engine Company. Ford set up a small machine shop on the farm and began tinkering with engines and machines. During this time, Ford fell in love with Clara Bryant, who he married in 1888.
............. takbeer
#56 Posted by hamidm2 on October 6, 2006 8:35:17 pm
another ramadan story: how sam walton became the patriach of the richest family in the world
Growing up during the Great Depression, Walton had numerous chores to help make financial ends meet for his family. He milked the family cow, bottled the surplus and drove it to customers. Afterwards, he would deliver newspapers on a paper route.
Upon graduating, Walton decided to attend college, hoping to find a better way to help support his family. He attended the University of Missouri - Columbia and majored in economics and was an ROTC officer. During this time, he worked various odd jobs, including waiting tables in exchange for meals.
........ takbeer !
#55 Posted by teshah on October 6, 2006 6:40:51 pm
Re: # 40
urstruly
Wah girayaan wichon te toon don ein. You could do all what a don did in the film but you perhaps cut off the scene about the dancing girls. Be frank, how you managed that? Who was in the line of your fire?
urstruly
Wah girayaan wichon te toon don ein. You could do all what a don did in the film but you perhaps cut off the scene about the dancing girls. Be frank, how you managed that? Who was in the line of your fire?
#54 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 6:33:09 pm
Re 53
Whatever the reasons are for Muslims to celebrate Eid, it certainly has NOTHING to do with the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus. I am not interested in answering your dumb questions.
Whatever the reasons are for Muslims to celebrate Eid, it certainly has NOTHING to do with the resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus. I am not interested in answering your dumb questions.
#53 Posted by teshah on October 6, 2006 6:29:09 pm
Re: # 16
masadi
Showing off your fasting perhaps! But as I see you don`t need fasting to make a show of your religious sensibility.
As I had stated in my previous post I am ignorant about rituals which I understand are no innovation of Muhammadan Islam but were being observed even by pre-Islamic people irrespective of the faith-labels they carried, albeit with different reasons.
You say Easter is an eid of Christians to celebrate resurrection of Christ. Can you please tell me why Muslim Eid, which is perhaps an Arabic version of Eister, is celebrated?
Please write your reply only after you have broken your fast in the American evenig.
With regards
masadi
Showing off your fasting perhaps! But as I see you don`t need fasting to make a show of your religious sensibility.
As I had stated in my previous post I am ignorant about rituals which I understand are no innovation of Muhammadan Islam but were being observed even by pre-Islamic people irrespective of the faith-labels they carried, albeit with different reasons.
You say Easter is an eid of Christians to celebrate resurrection of Christ. Can you please tell me why Muslim Eid, which is perhaps an Arabic version of Eister, is celebrated?
Please write your reply only after you have broken your fast in the American evenig.
With regards
#52 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 6:18:18 pm
Iron mask states <<< Ask any of the editors of the boards he has frequented. he has been banned from most of them. My guess is that chowk tolerates this charlatan for they know his MO. >>>
I have never been banned from any board I have visited and I haven`t visted that many. People with weak minds and morals like you and tahmed will lie shamelessly without fact. Unlike you, I have made original contributions to this board and many that are not as pathetically ungrateful as you have used those posts to better understand their world. I don`t spend my time here to interact with rats like you, my purpose here is to present for the sincere an image of their world that is deliberately hidden from them by the bs of the mass media. You and your friends like wasif are unable to form a decent argument, or to reason beyond a retard`s level, your contributions to this site are less than zero, by your bs and distractions you try to derail all those who are trying to share ideas, by allowing and tolering your kind here, a degenate kind that pops up whenever Islam is mentioned for the purpose of hate and bigotry, the editors ensure that Chowk is reduced to a garbage dump for which they are fully responsible
I have never been banned from any board I have visited and I haven`t visted that many. People with weak minds and morals like you and tahmed will lie shamelessly without fact. Unlike you, I have made original contributions to this board and many that are not as pathetically ungrateful as you have used those posts to better understand their world. I don`t spend my time here to interact with rats like you, my purpose here is to present for the sincere an image of their world that is deliberately hidden from them by the bs of the mass media. You and your friends like wasif are unable to form a decent argument, or to reason beyond a retard`s level, your contributions to this site are less than zero, by your bs and distractions you try to derail all those who are trying to share ideas, by allowing and tolering your kind here, a degenate kind that pops up whenever Islam is mentioned for the purpose of hate and bigotry, the editors ensure that Chowk is reduced to a garbage dump for which they are fully responsible
#51 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 6:11:03 pm
hamidm writes <<< a ramadhan story for masadi
by: Howard Schultz
Founder of Starbucks >>>
There is much more to that person`s biography than what you present, the happy coincidences that led to this person`s advancement are shared by so few, just like the few ghetto dwellers that become basketball stars, that banking on it and following it as a dream is a pipe dream. A new opium of the masses, keep them chasing a dream they will never attain while they fill the coffers of ther rich with massive surplus.
by: Howard Schultz
Founder of Starbucks >>>
There is much more to that person`s biography than what you present, the happy coincidences that led to this person`s advancement are shared by so few, just like the few ghetto dwellers that become basketball stars, that banking on it and following it as a dream is a pipe dream. A new opium of the masses, keep them chasing a dream they will never attain while they fill the coffers of ther rich with massive surplus.
#50 Posted by harimau on October 6, 2006 5:37:29 pm
Ref ally #42
[Hmmmmm Harimau ji and what do you say of Karva Chot vrat that my Big Indian Baji/Didi`s keep for their hubby`s long life, here in London?]
Having a niece who has married a UPwallah, I can say honestly that I have some familiarity with the Karva Chot vrat. It requires the wife to fast during the day and wait till the husband finishes his dinner at night before eating. I think it strengthens the bond between the husband and the wife.
While you may say that Ramzan similarly strengthens the bond between Muslims and Allah, I find it tough to accept that if I were in a country as liberal as Bahrain is supposed to be, I as a non-Muslim would not able to eat anywhere except in the privacy of my home during Ramzan.
Perhaps we should pass a law in India forcing Muslims to observe the fast during Ramzan. After all Indian Muslims have demanded and succesfully obtained Sharia law for civil matters. We should make them enjoy amputation of limbs, stoning to death. public beheadings, etc., and spread the Law of Allah among the Momeen.
[What about Pooja, PaTh, Aarthi etc, these all too are rituals. They are not nonsensical but provide us with something, thats why we do them. Just because you study at Berkely doesnt mean that rituals you were brought up with will cease to affect you, or you will not get something from them.
How would your reaction have been had this been some Hindu girl from Mumbai reminiscing about Navratri or Dusehra???]
I would have asked the Hindu girl from Mumbai to send me some mithai! Honest!
PS. I do agree that puja, etc., are all rituals used to keep brahmins in employment and keep down folks like Soysauce who fully deserves to be kept down.
[Hmmmmm Harimau ji and what do you say of Karva Chot vrat that my Big Indian Baji/Didi`s keep for their hubby`s long life, here in London?]
Having a niece who has married a UPwallah, I can say honestly that I have some familiarity with the Karva Chot vrat. It requires the wife to fast during the day and wait till the husband finishes his dinner at night before eating. I think it strengthens the bond between the husband and the wife.
While you may say that Ramzan similarly strengthens the bond between Muslims and Allah, I find it tough to accept that if I were in a country as liberal as Bahrain is supposed to be, I as a non-Muslim would not able to eat anywhere except in the privacy of my home during Ramzan.
Perhaps we should pass a law in India forcing Muslims to observe the fast during Ramzan. After all Indian Muslims have demanded and succesfully obtained Sharia law for civil matters. We should make them enjoy amputation of limbs, stoning to death. public beheadings, etc., and spread the Law of Allah among the Momeen.
[What about Pooja, PaTh, Aarthi etc, these all too are rituals. They are not nonsensical but provide us with something, thats why we do them. Just because you study at Berkely doesnt mean that rituals you were brought up with will cease to affect you, or you will not get something from them.
How would your reaction have been had this been some Hindu girl from Mumbai reminiscing about Navratri or Dusehra???]
I would have asked the Hindu girl from Mumbai to send me some mithai! Honest!
PS. I do agree that puja, etc., are all rituals used to keep brahmins in employment and keep down folks like Soysauce who fully deserves to be kept down.
#49 Posted by bongdongs on October 6, 2006 2:00:59 pm
#48
man, so I`m not the only one! My (mexican) halal butcher looks at me with disdain when I ask for 2 lb front-leg right after the two somali`s and the pakistani-unkal-ji ahead of me have carved up 5 goats between themselves.
Its like thanksgiving for goats!
man, so I`m not the only one! My (mexican) halal butcher looks at me with disdain when I ask for 2 lb front-leg right after the two somali`s and the pakistani-unkal-ji ahead of me have carved up 5 goats between themselves.
Its like thanksgiving for goats!
#48 Posted by jang on October 6, 2006 1:29:35 pm
good stuff. i like this cultural islam and i love rituals.
i remember celebrating iftar in college with various nationality muslim friends ..the algerians were ther best cooks due to french influence. great soups and salads and fish. turks always got some good cheese. indians and pakis were the worst since they always had noukars (or mommies) to cooking for them back home so they made bad curries with packaged masalas.
nowadays i am a little ambivalent during ram jan since my butcher hikes his prices for kid (goat) and there is always a harrasssed hungry baji in front of me in line hounding him to cut meat in 14 different ways and making me wait forever.
i remember celebrating iftar in college with various nationality muslim friends ..the algerians were ther best cooks due to french influence. great soups and salads and fish. turks always got some good cheese. indians and pakis were the worst since they always had noukars (or mommies) to cooking for them back home so they made bad curries with packaged masalas.
nowadays i am a little ambivalent during ram jan since my butcher hikes his prices for kid (goat) and there is always a harrasssed hungry baji in front of me in line hounding him to cut meat in 14 different ways and making me wait forever.
#47 Posted by antamazol on October 6, 2006 1:25:49 pm
Fisa,
nice read.
no doubt Ramazan is to keep us in good health and morals.But more emphasis is on food .
like all other things , bachra Ramzan is also corrupted.
nice read.
no doubt Ramazan is to keep us in good health and morals.But more emphasis is on food .
like all other things , bachra Ramzan is also corrupted.
#46 Posted by echoboom on October 6, 2006 1:12:46 pm
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#45 Posted by nasah on October 6, 2006 1:10:16 pm
Ramadan -- used to be called Ramazan -- so you do miss that dreaded month of Muslim masochism -- like the Shia self flaggelation -- piety of hunger mixed with the afternoon of self righteous anger -- relieved by the evening of all night pigging out..... with the distant rainbow of persian Eidoozzohaa now arabized Eiduddohaa....
Huay jaatay haiN ub dhondhlay nishaaN se
ke iss mehfil meiN hum aa ye kahaN se
Huay jaatay haiN ub dhondhlay nishaaN se
ke iss mehfil meiN hum aa ye kahaN se
#44 Posted by anil on October 6, 2006 11:23:37 am
Re: # 33
Echoboom Sahib:
``It is really gratifying to note that only non-muslims & the secularoons, liberaloons, munaafiquoons, murtadoons, and the two mirzaoons are opposing Mr. Masadi. ``
Do you know how insignificant percentage of humanity on this Earth you have excluded?
Anil
Echoboom Sahib:
``It is really gratifying to note that only non-muslims & the secularoons, liberaloons, munaafiquoons, murtadoons, and the two mirzaoons are opposing Mr. Masadi. ``
Do you know how insignificant percentage of humanity on this Earth you have excluded?
Anil
#43 Posted by anil on October 6, 2006 11:18:14 am
Re: # 40
Urstruly Sahib:
Now, you can also write ``My Experiment with Truth``, like Gandhi did.
Anil
Urstruly Sahib:
Now, you can also write ``My Experiment with Truth``, like Gandhi did.
Anil
#42 Posted by Ally on October 6, 2006 8:44:38 am
Nice article Fiza... I`m just lazy so i haven`t been fasting!!!
Urstruly
Changi maar kuTTh payee LOL!!!!
#5 by harimau on October 5, 2006 5:09pm PT
So Fiza studies at Berkeley and still believes in nonsensical rituals!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!
Hmmmmm Harimau ji and what do you say of Karva Chot vrat that my Big Indian Baji/Didi`s keep for their hubby`s long life, here in London?
What about Pooja, PaTh, Aarthi etc, these all too are rituals. They are not nonsensical but provide us with something, thats why we do them. Just because you study at Berkely doesnt mean that rituals you were brought up with will cease to affect you, or you will not get something from them.
How would your reaction have been had this been some Hindu girl from Mumbai reminiscing about Navratri or Dusehra???
Urstruly
Changi maar kuTTh payee LOL!!!!
#5 by harimau on October 5, 2006 5:09pm PT
So Fiza studies at Berkeley and still believes in nonsensical rituals!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!
Hmmmmm Harimau ji and what do you say of Karva Chot vrat that my Big Indian Baji/Didi`s keep for their hubby`s long life, here in London?
What about Pooja, PaTh, Aarthi etc, these all too are rituals. They are not nonsensical but provide us with something, thats why we do them. Just because you study at Berkely doesnt mean that rituals you were brought up with will cease to affect you, or you will not get something from them.
How would your reaction have been had this been some Hindu girl from Mumbai reminiscing about Navratri or Dusehra???
#41 Posted by hamidm2 on October 6, 2006 8:34:14 am
Re: # 40
urstruly,
that was cute :) ...... seems like you used to be a regular guy - when did you cross over to the dark side ? ......... come back - you will be forgiven for your sinful prayers and fasting .......
urstruly,
that was cute :) ...... seems like you used to be a regular guy - when did you cross over to the dark side ? ......... come back - you will be forgiven for your sinful prayers and fasting .......
#40 Posted by Urstruly on October 6, 2006 8:27:12 am
Nice article. Brought back some old memories, especially of one Ramadan many years ago when I sold my soul to the Devil for a pack of Marlboro and a bunch of sundarkhani grapes. During that Ramadan an uncle of mine came to visit and spend eid with us from abroad along with his family. As one would anticipate, both events, the suhur and aftari, were almost celebrated like a party everyday with hustle and bustle, since so many family members were gathered together.
Uncle had brought with him some packs of Marlboros from duty free for my father. But my father was hooked on to Capstan and remains so till this day. He just smoked a couple of smokes from a pack and left three cartons lying around; which he planned to give to his boss on eid. I had just started smoking and tried almost every brand available in Pakistan including biri, baglaa and K2; but I had not tried a Marlboro so far. The corner khokhay wala wouldn`t sell loose smokes unless I bought the whole pack, and it was the most expensive cigarette in Pak in those days.
So one afternoon, when everyone was fasting, including even the six and seven year olds, I decide to check Marlboro out. It was one of those summer dog days and everyone was having siesta in a/c rooms. I could have waited until iftar but I wanted to re-enact a scene from a movie that I saw some days ago. In that movie in one scene, Mustafa Qureshi, who was playing a mafia don, was shown lying down in a bath tub, smoking a cigar, and laciviously munching on a bunch of grapes, and periodically imbibing wine while two damsels danced in front of him. That scene was so impressive that I decided that day that the only objective of my life would be to become an outlaw and a mafia don.
So as a first step towards my would-be rebillious life I stole a huge bunch of grapes from the refrigerator and a pack of Marlboro, lied down in the bathtub and started munching and smoking. I must admit that it was a one heck of sweet experience - I had eaten about half a kilo of grapes, since I was hungary since sahur, and I was in the middle of my thrid Marlboro when someone knocked at the door. It was my dad. I hurriedly hid the grapes in the closet and started fanning out dense clouds of smoke through the ventilator with my shirt. But smoke just wouldn`t go out. I yelled ``Abbaji, I am taking bath, its gonna take a while``. A minute later someone knocked at the door again. This time it was my 6 year old cousin. He told me that dad had gone to bed again. I opened the door and the first person I saw was my dad coming out of his room. I tried to make a face as if I was about to collapse because of thrist. He looked at me with emapthy and pride, but just as he came close to the bathroom door he yelled ``Oye ullu de pathay cigarette pee rya si?``. I tried to make my face as miskeen as possible and said ``NahiN abbaji mainda teh roza aye``. His reply was ``oye khotya rozay wich jhoot bolna ain``. After that some unmentionable things happened to me, which kept on repeating throughout the rest of Ramadan. Needless to say that, on that day my dreams of becoming a mafia don were also dashed.
#39 Posted by Azure on October 6, 2006 7:44:38 am
Food food food! That`s what ramadan is all about, eh? Food early in the morning, empty belly throughout the day, food at maghrib, food at isha, food before bed, and the cycle starts again next day. Ramadan makes people in this part of the world think more about food rather than the true benefits of the holy month.
Try switching off your television while you`re having sehri/iftari with your family, and you`ll know what I`m talking about ;-)
Very nicely written article. God bless you!
Try switching off your television while you`re having sehri/iftari with your family, and you`ll know what I`m talking about ;-)
Very nicely written article. God bless you!
#38 Posted by hamidm2 on October 6, 2006 7:40:24 am
nice article - cute and well written ...............i feel inspired to fast, but happy hour ends at 6:00 pm and iftaar is not till 7 something .......... i agree with masadi that this is discrimination against practicing muslims and would gladly join him in picketing my neighborhood bar ...... masadi ?
#37 Posted by hamidm2 on October 6, 2006 7:37:49 am
a ramadhan story for masadi
by: Howard Schultz
Founder of Starbucks
I grew up in federally subsidized housing in Brooklyn. I was part of a generation of families that dreamed about the American dream. My dad had a series of blue-collar jobs. An uneducated man, he was kind of beaten by the system. He was a World War II veteran who had great aspirations about America, but his dream was not coming true.
At the age of seven, I came home one day to find my dad sprawled on the couch in our two-bedroom apartment in a full-leg cast; he had fallen on the job and broken his leg. This was way before the invention of Pampers, and he worked as a delivery driver for cloth diapers. He hated this job bitterly, but on this one day, he wished he had it back. In 1960 in America, most companies had no workers` compensation and no hospitalization for a blue-collar worker who had an accident. I saw firsthand the plight of the working class.
................. please visit one of your neighborhood starbucks for sehri and iftaar - it is coming to india soon, the pakis will have to wait until they stop blowing up kfc`s and mcdonalds
#36 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 6:41:12 am
Re: # 35 treasures and imagines it as it should be!
#35 Posted by shobig_sifar on October 6, 2006 6:37:43 am
Beautiful. Quite nostalgi-zing (or something to that effect) as well as thought provoking.
Sometimes I wonder whether it is the time well-spent that renders one remniscent and nostalgic, or it`s the time `un-utilized` and the regretfulness asscoiated with it that does. Either way, the past is the only thing everybody treasures.
Thanks for a great read.
Sometimes I wonder whether it is the time well-spent that renders one remniscent and nostalgic, or it`s the time `un-utilized` and the regretfulness asscoiated with it that does. Either way, the past is the only thing everybody treasures.
Thanks for a great read.
#34 Posted by queen_cut_paste on October 6, 2006 5:22:10 am
Re: # 33 thats the whole world according to Masada mian! r
#33 Posted by echoboom on October 6, 2006 5:19:21 am
Mr. Masadi:
It is really gratifying to note that only non-muslims & the secularoons, liberaloons, munaafiquoons, murtadoons, and the two mirzaoons are opposing Mr. Masadi.
Mr.Masadi! you are doing a great job..keep it up. Muslims support you, a few non-muslims here hate your guts. Keep them on a long leash,............. but do not let them loose.
It is really gratifying to note that only non-muslims & the secularoons, liberaloons, munaafiquoons, murtadoons, and the two mirzaoons are opposing Mr. Masadi.
Mr.Masadi! you are doing a great job..keep it up. Muslims support you, a few non-muslims here hate your guts. Keep them on a long leash,............. but do not let them loose.
#32 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 4:45:57 am
#30 oh dear was it so obvious.....naughty Masadi...you need to disguise yourself better
#31 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 4:44:46 am
#29 Tahmed32 you are sailing very close to the wind, and you might find that you will have a fatwa on your head soon
#30 Posted by tahmed32 on October 6, 2006 4:42:08 am
iron mask #28 i see the government-cheese eating rat masadi is here too. damn. :-)
#29 Posted by tahmed32 on October 6, 2006 4:40:39 am
#7 dullhabhatti: MNT (i.e. Multi-Nation Theory, aka Celebration of Diversity) vs TNT (Two-Nation Theory, aka Rejection of Diversity).
This is indeed food for thought that can be taken even while fasting. :-)
This is indeed food for thought that can be taken even while fasting. :-)
#28 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:54:42 am
This is really beautiful. plenty of feeling. Thank god there are still some around who can do this on chowk.
And MAsadi please stay the eff out with your balderdash...you spoil, and rape a whole board and thread.
And MAsadi please stay the eff out with your balderdash...you spoil, and rape a whole board and thread.
#27 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:48:08 am
This is Masadi describing himself in #12
The fact is that community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner. When the author says, ``I was all alone``, this is a psychological fact not only for immigrants that feel it much more (as do excluded members of this society like minorities and the elderly and single women bringing up children etc), but for locals as well, it is a dog eat dog world where kindness is sneered at and if the market doesn`t deem you important, you are discraded with total ingratitude, invisible from the mainstream- all alone. Just go around your city restaurants and look at the people sitting there alone in the evening, they belong to these same excluded groups. All this is very good for profitability also, if you have a relationship/community void, you try to fill that up with material commodities and the corporations bank on that.
Yes, wasif2 he needs therapy badly!
The fact is that community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner. When the author says, ``I was all alone``, this is a psychological fact not only for immigrants that feel it much more (as do excluded members of this society like minorities and the elderly and single women bringing up children etc), but for locals as well, it is a dog eat dog world where kindness is sneered at and if the market doesn`t deem you important, you are discraded with total ingratitude, invisible from the mainstream- all alone. Just go around your city restaurants and look at the people sitting there alone in the evening, they belong to these same excluded groups. All this is very good for profitability also, if you have a relationship/community void, you try to fill that up with material commodities and the corporations bank on that.
Yes, wasif2 he needs therapy badly!
#26 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:45:37 am
Re: # 20
Its his normal operative mode.
He abuse first. when nothing happens he calls the editors names. then a fight starts. He gets banned for being a rabble rouser and a piece of ****. Then he goes caliming around the world he got banned and his freedom of speech is being curbed and curtailed. there is a conspiracy against him etc etc. A mark of a failed human being.
Ask any of the editors of the boards he has frequented. he has been banned from most of them. My guess is that chowk tolerates this charlatan for they know his MO.
Its his normal operative mode.
He abuse first. when nothing happens he calls the editors names. then a fight starts. He gets banned for being a rabble rouser and a piece of ****. Then he goes caliming around the world he got banned and his freedom of speech is being curbed and curtailed. there is a conspiracy against him etc etc. A mark of a failed human being.
Ask any of the editors of the boards he has frequented. he has been banned from most of them. My guess is that chowk tolerates this charlatan for they know his MO.
#25 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:41:06 am
Re: # 23
by ``failed religous asshole`` I mean masadi specifically.
Not all religious people are this. Infact they are the most generous and forgiving human beings.
by ``failed religous asshole`` I mean masadi specifically.
Not all religious people are this. Infact they are the most generous and forgiving human beings.
#24 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:34:11 am
Re: # 23
below should have read (2) Not a single academic database has your articles.......
apologies for the typos....
below should have read (2) Not a single academic database has your articles.......
apologies for the typos....
#23 Posted by iron_mask on October 6, 2006 3:33:01 am
Re: # 19
Masadii Complexii Psued. Scholarii, why bring in mothers and daughters.
When you say ``they`d similarly whore their mama`s and daughters`` I assume you are looking at yourself in the mirror and are loathing the image of yourself. Maybe a failed academic, a failed father, a failed husband, and a failed religous asshole.
BTW Asadi, I was wondering if you are that great a scholar, what are your publications like. What exactly is your scholarly contribution to this world - forget this world the Islamic World. I cannot see much from you that is worthy of mention, or citing. Indeed even the Great as well as the mediocre Islamic Scholars donot cite your work (I know you will find an excuse for the others not citing your work - and the excuse willcome under Islamophobia, Racism etc). For example here is one cite which gives you zero ratings
(1)http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=M.+Asadi&hl=en&lr=
(2) No academic database doesnot have your articles as being published in academic journal or presented at a conference and where I am I have access to all the worlds academic output!
And yet you have the gall to call others names, and raise doubts on their abilities to be fathers and wives, and intellect grasp of life.
Grow up you silly old fool!
Masadii Complexii Psued. Scholarii, why bring in mothers and daughters.
When you say ``they`d similarly whore their mama`s and daughters`` I assume you are looking at yourself in the mirror and are loathing the image of yourself. Maybe a failed academic, a failed father, a failed husband, and a failed religous asshole.
BTW Asadi, I was wondering if you are that great a scholar, what are your publications like. What exactly is your scholarly contribution to this world - forget this world the Islamic World. I cannot see much from you that is worthy of mention, or citing. Indeed even the Great as well as the mediocre Islamic Scholars donot cite your work (I know you will find an excuse for the others not citing your work - and the excuse willcome under Islamophobia, Racism etc). For example here is one cite which gives you zero ratings
(1)http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=M.+Asadi&hl=en&lr=
(2) No academic database doesnot have your articles as being published in academic journal or presented at a conference and where I am I have access to all the worlds academic output!
And yet you have the gall to call others names, and raise doubts on their abilities to be fathers and wives, and intellect grasp of life.
Grow up you silly old fool!
#22 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 1:43:08 am
Re # 19
an article on islam ?????????
masadi thinks Fiza`s article on her nostalgia is an article on islam.
i told you....he needs therapy.
#21 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 1:09:47 am
masadi thinks what he writes is ``discussion`` .... LOL.
i told you.... he needs therapy.
#20 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 1:06:42 am
see...again....i told you.... masadi needs therapy.
masadi....i am still waiting in line...the hole you emerged from is in great demand.... though unpleasant and most foul smelling....most foul smelling !
now complaining to the editors ????? aawwwwwwww !
loser !
#19 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 1:02:28 am
It is quite amazing how these a-holes like wasif2 emerge from their dung pits whenever there is an article on Islam, trying to detract from the discussion going on. That is the entire purpose behind their miserable existence on Chowk. Their pathetic intellects cannot come up with one orignial piece of information or argument. It is as if they`ve whored their intellects for a few dollars and a glass of booze, they`d similarly whore their mama`s and daughters~ nothing is of value to them that is quite obvious. Why they are allowed to carry on like this on this board by the editors at Chowk baffles me, but it sure as hell reduces the quality of Chowk to a third rate blog for which the editors are equally to blame.
#18 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 12:50:17 am
ohhh i tried masadi.... they said i would have to wait my turn.... too many people in line for that hole...even though unpleasant and foul smelling.
#17 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 12:45:21 am
see...i told you... self important masadi needs therapy....
in the meantime...masadi....i think i should attend to the hole you emerged from....not a pleasant one though it is likely to be.... and foul smelling too i suspect.
#16 Posted by masadi on October 6, 2006 12:27:39 am
teshah writes <<< Allah says ``I have written (in genes perhaps) fasting for you as I had done for the previous people (Note: Said nothing about the succeeding people). What Allah had written for the previous people in this respect I came to know by chance. >>>
Some people`s stupidity (taking every opportunity to spew their hate for Islam knows no bounds). When a book is talking to a reader that is `present` it serves no purpose to talk about ``future generations`` when no time limit is placed on the prescription.
Then he writes <<< He told me that at the end of 40 days (or so?) of observing fast they celebrate Easter on the next Wednesday. So the difference is not due to the calendar date but due to the day of the week. >>>
There is absolutely no connection between Easter which celebrates the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and the Muslim fast of Ramadan or Eid. Further the fasting in Christianity is not standard, has evolved and is practiced variantly unlike Ramadan. Regarding making a show of their religion, Christians will outdo all others going door to door peddling their religion and carrying it on their sleeves, so what you`re trying to prove regarding their humility is mere BS.
Finally what is most atrocious in this post is his comment stating <<< I was ashamed to realise how little we know about other religions even in the 21st century. This is perhaps because Isalam rejects outright all religions as `Kufr`, even those we call the `Religions of the Book`. >>>
What is atrocious in this claim is that he started with a verse of the Quran, then confirms that about earlier people and then blames the Quran for keeping him ignorant of other religions, what kind of circular disconnected bs is that? Why you don`t know about other religions is because you don`t bother to find out. Islam is much more accomodative of Christians and Jews than they are of Islam, and address them in much more respectible terms, in its main text, than the Christians or the Jews do to either the prophet or Islam.
wasif2 writes <<< Also, self important masadi needs therapy >>>
You need to return to the hole you emerged from.
Some people`s stupidity (taking every opportunity to spew their hate for Islam knows no bounds). When a book is talking to a reader that is `present` it serves no purpose to talk about ``future generations`` when no time limit is placed on the prescription.
Then he writes <<< He told me that at the end of 40 days (or so?) of observing fast they celebrate Easter on the next Wednesday. So the difference is not due to the calendar date but due to the day of the week. >>>
There is absolutely no connection between Easter which celebrates the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and the Muslim fast of Ramadan or Eid. Further the fasting in Christianity is not standard, has evolved and is practiced variantly unlike Ramadan. Regarding making a show of their religion, Christians will outdo all others going door to door peddling their religion and carrying it on their sleeves, so what you`re trying to prove regarding their humility is mere BS.
Finally what is most atrocious in this post is his comment stating <<< I was ashamed to realise how little we know about other religions even in the 21st century. This is perhaps because Isalam rejects outright all religions as `Kufr`, even those we call the `Religions of the Book`. >>>
What is atrocious in this claim is that he started with a verse of the Quran, then confirms that about earlier people and then blames the Quran for keeping him ignorant of other religions, what kind of circular disconnected bs is that? Why you don`t know about other religions is because you don`t bother to find out. Islam is much more accomodative of Christians and Jews than they are of Islam, and address them in much more respectible terms, in its main text, than the Christians or the Jews do to either the prophet or Islam.
wasif2 writes <<< Also, self important masadi needs therapy >>>
You need to return to the hole you emerged from.
#15 Posted by ballukhan on October 6, 2006 12:12:06 am
``........sacrificed every human relation for their purposes, including husband/wife, mother/children relationships, will...................``
You mean the relationship between an employer-employee, a single mother and her child, a gay parent with their kids, a fellow travellor on the airplane, a fellow stamp collector, a fellow classical musician, a lecturer and his stundent in a Western University is NOT a ``HUMAN`` relationship because they do not fall into your bookish understanding of what human relationship means????
Why do Islamists have to keep their reference of human relationships confined to those relations prescribed in the religious books???
It proves clearly that Asadi has a fantasy world reference of human relations belonging to the dark ages and would like all of us to go back to that life!!
You mean the relationship between an employer-employee, a single mother and her child, a gay parent with their kids, a fellow travellor on the airplane, a fellow stamp collector, a fellow classical musician, a lecturer and his stundent in a Western University is NOT a ``HUMAN`` relationship because they do not fall into your bookish understanding of what human relationship means????
Why do Islamists have to keep their reference of human relationships confined to those relations prescribed in the religious books???
It proves clearly that Asadi has a fantasy world reference of human relations belonging to the dark ages and would like all of us to go back to that life!!
#14 Posted by wasif2 on October 6, 2006 12:08:50 am
Ramzan is overrated. Why is this woman telling us what she thinks ramzan actually means ? For me ramzan is what you make for iftari.
Also, self important masadi needs therapy.
#13 Posted by harish_hyd on October 5, 2006 11:17:54 pm
#12 by masadi
Very soon, inshallah, but not on your timetable.
Yaar please take your own sweet time, but make sure it is before the Feds home in on you. God forbid, if anything happens to you, the loss will entirely be Chowk`s.
Very soon, inshallah, but not on your timetable.
Yaar please take your own sweet time, but make sure it is before the Feds home in on you. God forbid, if anything happens to you, the loss will entirely be Chowk`s.
#12 Posted by masadi on October 5, 2006 11:02:16 pm
<<< Why not move back to Pakistan?>>>
Very soon, inshallah, but not on your timetable.
Very soon, inshallah, but not on your timetable.
#11 Posted by harish_hyd on October 5, 2006 10:36:38 pm
#10 by masadi
Yaar Masadi, why do you continue to live in this land where ``community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner``? Why not move back to Pakistan? Should be easy no?
Yaar Masadi, why do you continue to live in this land where ``community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner``? Why not move back to Pakistan? Should be easy no?
#10 Posted by masadi on October 5, 2006 10:22:53 pm
tahmed writes <<< Very nice write-up, dealing with two great subjects: America as a ``nation of nations``. And Ramzan, which is indeed good training in self-discipline and clean and simple living. >>>
This person tahmed, a dispicable peon of the West, will not miss a single opportunity, real or contrived, to sing the praises of America. The fact is that community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner. When the author says, ``I was all alone``, this is a psychological fact not only for immigrants that feel it much more (as do excluded members of this society like minorities and the elderly and single women bringing up children etc), but for locals as well, it is a dog eat dog world where kindness is sneered at and if the market doesn`t deem you important, you are discraded with total ingratitude, invisible from the mainstream- all alone. Just go around your city restaurants and look at the people sitting there alone in the evening, they belong to these same excluded groups. All this is very good for profitability also, if you have a relationship/community void, you try to fill that up with material commodities and the corporations bank on that.
That is the true picture of America that worshippers of the West, those who want to keep this inhumanity going, for the benefit of corporations that have sacrificed every human relation for their purposes, including husband/wife, mother/children relationships, will keep singing its praises. There is nothing to miss about Ramadan in America, it does not have a social component in the US, and by the way its purpose is not self-discipline as this dimwit is suggesting, its purpose is to develop social consciousness, taqwa, when you experience want firsthand you become more conscious of the needs of others in society who have no choice.
This person tahmed, a dispicable peon of the West, will not miss a single opportunity, real or contrived, to sing the praises of America. The fact is that community and humanity is at its lowest level in this society that has been geared for maximum work and profitibility with everything else shaped around it in an artificial manner. When the author says, ``I was all alone``, this is a psychological fact not only for immigrants that feel it much more (as do excluded members of this society like minorities and the elderly and single women bringing up children etc), but for locals as well, it is a dog eat dog world where kindness is sneered at and if the market doesn`t deem you important, you are discraded with total ingratitude, invisible from the mainstream- all alone. Just go around your city restaurants and look at the people sitting there alone in the evening, they belong to these same excluded groups. All this is very good for profitability also, if you have a relationship/community void, you try to fill that up with material commodities and the corporations bank on that.
That is the true picture of America that worshippers of the West, those who want to keep this inhumanity going, for the benefit of corporations that have sacrificed every human relation for their purposes, including husband/wife, mother/children relationships, will keep singing its praises. There is nothing to miss about Ramadan in America, it does not have a social component in the US, and by the way its purpose is not self-discipline as this dimwit is suggesting, its purpose is to develop social consciousness, taqwa, when you experience want firsthand you become more conscious of the needs of others in society who have no choice.
#9 Posted by ballukhan on October 5, 2006 10:18:28 pm
Re: # 6
Well said.
Ramadan is about introspection, loving others and NOT listening to a mullah`s hate speech. It is the time to closely interact with the non-muslims and see how the mullahs are the real hate pots of this world.
Well said.
Ramadan is about introspection, loving others and NOT listening to a mullah`s hate speech. It is the time to closely interact with the non-muslims and see how the mullahs are the real hate pots of this world.
#8 Posted by teshah on October 5, 2006 8:06:38 pm
Re: # 5
Harimau says,
``So Fiza studies at Berkeley and still believes in nonsensical rituals!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!``
That’s it. Hundred percent correct at least about Karachi-walas who are wallowing in ritualistic indulgence. I could read only a few paras full of nostalgic self-indulgence. She says at the end:
``I understood what God really intended making us all fast in the same month, at the same time, in the same way.``
What she means by `all` and `the same month, at the same time, in the same way`. If she meant by `all` then I may tell her that God had quite different intentions than those of Allah. Allah says ``I have written (in genes perhaps) fasting for you as I had done for the previous people (Note: Said nothing about the succeeding people). What Allah had written for the previous people in this respect I came to know by chance. While working in the Punjab Secretariat in the Finance Department I had to allow advance payment of monthly pay to the Christian employees of the government. I thought it would be a simple matter to copy the previous orders. But when I saw the file I was surprised to find that, like Muslim Eid, Easter had also been observed at different dates despite the fact that the Christian followed the solar calendar. I consulted the head of Christian union in the secretariat about the phenomenon. He told me that at the end of 40 days (or so?) of observing fast they celebrate Easter on the next Wednesday. So the difference is not due to the calendar date but due to the day of the week. What made me all the more surprised was the observance of fasting by the Christians as I had a number Christian friends and colleagues but they had never mentioned about fasting as the Muslims are wont to do. So I asked my interlocutor why this was that we never came across a Christian making a show of fasting as Muslims do. He told me that it was not allowed by their religion to make a show of fasting even by one’s behavior and that it is ordained that a fasting which has been made a show of shall never be accepted by God. It may be mentioned here that fasting for the Christians is for 24 hours, with no break for the night perhaps.
I was ashamed to realise how little we know about other religions even in the 21st century. This is perhaps because Isalam rejects outright all religions as `Kufr`, even those we call the `Religions of the Book`.
Harimau says,
``So Fiza studies at Berkeley and still believes in nonsensical rituals!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!``
That’s it. Hundred percent correct at least about Karachi-walas who are wallowing in ritualistic indulgence. I could read only a few paras full of nostalgic self-indulgence. She says at the end:
``I understood what God really intended making us all fast in the same month, at the same time, in the same way.``
What she means by `all` and `the same month, at the same time, in the same way`. If she meant by `all` then I may tell her that God had quite different intentions than those of Allah. Allah says ``I have written (in genes perhaps) fasting for you as I had done for the previous people (Note: Said nothing about the succeeding people). What Allah had written for the previous people in this respect I came to know by chance. While working in the Punjab Secretariat in the Finance Department I had to allow advance payment of monthly pay to the Christian employees of the government. I thought it would be a simple matter to copy the previous orders. But when I saw the file I was surprised to find that, like Muslim Eid, Easter had also been observed at different dates despite the fact that the Christian followed the solar calendar. I consulted the head of Christian union in the secretariat about the phenomenon. He told me that at the end of 40 days (or so?) of observing fast they celebrate Easter on the next Wednesday. So the difference is not due to the calendar date but due to the day of the week. What made me all the more surprised was the observance of fasting by the Christians as I had a number Christian friends and colleagues but they had never mentioned about fasting as the Muslims are wont to do. So I asked my interlocutor why this was that we never came across a Christian making a show of fasting as Muslims do. He told me that it was not allowed by their religion to make a show of fasting even by one’s behavior and that it is ordained that a fasting which has been made a show of shall never be accepted by God. It may be mentioned here that fasting for the Christians is for 24 hours, with no break for the night perhaps.
I was ashamed to realise how little we know about other religions even in the 21st century. This is perhaps because Isalam rejects outright all religions as `Kufr`, even those we call the `Religions of the Book`.
#7 Posted by dullabhatti on October 5, 2006 7:59:51 pm
#6 aaahh chacha ji`s MNT: Multi Nation Theory.
#6 Posted by tahmed32 on October 5, 2006 5:43:19 pm
Very nice write-up, dealing with two great subjects: America as a ``nation of nations``. And Ramzan, which is indeed good training in self-discipline and clean and simple living.
#5 Posted by harimau on October 5, 2006 5:09:25 pm
So Fiza studies at Berkeley and still believes in nonsensical rituals!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!
Proof that you can take the girl out of Pakistan but you can`t take Pakistan out of the girl!
#4 Posted by dullabhatti on October 5, 2006 4:25:39 pm
Ramadhan or not, we all miss our college days and our childhood even if it was full of hardships and hardwork.
so bibi, paraunThay kha te lassi pee..and worry not.
so bibi, paraunThay kha te lassi pee..and worry not.
#2 Posted by Minhaj on October 5, 2006 2:08:06 pm
But right before going downstairs, as always, I would peak outside the curtains and enjoy the sight. 4:40 in the morning and every house in the neighborhood had its lights switched on.
Dear Fiza,
Thanks for this beautiful essay.
Dear Fiza,
Thanks for this beautiful essay.
#1 Posted by ZahraJ on October 5, 2006 1:18:29 pm
I liked the title about my Ramadan, but I think it would have been nicer if the crux of the article was clearly stated. It`s kind of lost in the details. The message is naive but sweet. I am not fasting this year per the instructions of my GI Specialist. I have done my share of uth-pehraa fasting for over 15-20 years. Now, my system cannot take it and I have been advised to hold off and assist a needy one in fasting. Although sehri is an important component of the fasting ritual, it`s real difficult to wake up that early and start filling in your tummy. During this Ramadan, my focus is to work on the spirit of fasting than the actual ritual. Happy fasting to all those who are diligently focused on the ritual. Make sure you take care of your tummies and do NOT drink caffeine on empty stomach. That`s a killer.
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