The General and Kargil

Dear Harish mian,

No need to be condescending ... Please feel free to answer point no 1 in 227.

#226 by Mantolives

So essentially you are suggesting that you have a better handle on what India was planning on doing than the US and its military intelligence, which mistakenly assumed (again your claim) that India was about to escalate?

Hey Yasser, I`d rather not discuss this with someone who knows neither the head nor tails of this whole thing. Please stay out of it and stop trying to be smarter than you are.

ps..

two more things...

1. What do you think of General Musharraf`s rendering of facts vis a vis Kargil in his book?

2. Please don`t forget to visit the link in 219 on another unrelated discussion.

Dear Harish mian,

So essentially you are suggesting that you have a better handle on what India was planning on doing than the US and its military intelligence, which mistakenly assumed (again your claim) that India was about to escalate?

#224 by Mantolives

On the one hand you say that India was about to justifiably escalate the conflict and that is why US sent Gen. Zinni and then you say that India never wanted to escalate.

Dear Yasser, did you even R E A D the post? I said the US ``feared`` India would escalate the conflict. India certainly didn`t want to escalate the conflict, but had the conflict prolonged and had it failed to retake the occupied positions, it would certainly have done so. It had reasons to do so. Got it?

Dear Harish mian,

On the one hand you say that India was about to justifiably escalate the conflict and that is why US sent Gen. Zinni and then you say that India never wanted to escalate.

So which one is it?

#164 by zeemacaca the Bhand

Why did he send Gen Zinni?

Because the US feared India might escalate the conflict and turn it nasty, given both India and Macaca-stan were nuclear armed, and India had good reason to do that.

So if Nawaz did what the army wanted, why was he overthrown and sent to jail and exile

Because the Macaca Army needed a convenient scapegoat. Didn`t the Macaca Army later blame him for converting a ``military vitory`` into a ``diplomatic defeat``? Even Mushy blames NS in his book for the abject defeat.

If Macacia wasn`t shying away from escalating, why didn`t it cross LOC?

Because India`s objective was to kick Macacas out of Indian territory back into Macaca-stan, and they were doing just that.

Also, the word macaca was used and is now the trademark for hindia. It can`t be used for Paks unless for your silly pissu trying to divert its meaning. So refrain from using it. Use something else or invent one ....

Aww poor Bhand Macaca, looks like you don`t have the balls to take abuse...too bad..go home lock yourself in a room and weep....LOL!

Dear Harimau,

As always, I stand ready to discuss any page or any fact mentioned in H V Hodson`s Great Divide... (I suggest ilog to ilog basis so that your latest treatment can be recorded). Please further recall that I whooped your ass significantly on this issue a few years ago and looks like you are still smarting from the blows. Gurdaspur fiasco and the deliberate doctoring of the Radcliffe award was behind the Kashmir betrayal...

As for your bold claims about cavity searches etc... George Fernandes was neither Pakistani nor a mirpuri... whatever happened to him being strip searched and bitchslapped on an American airport?

#217 by Khasi

You can never change a khasi.

Where did that link say NA was administrative part of J &K?

Here is a little better link for this uneducated Macaca to read even tho it is doubtful that Macacas can read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgit_Agency

“The two regions were combined as the Gilgit Agency by the British in 1889.”


The regions of Gilgit and Baltistan were formerly principalities. The name Gilgit-Baltistan is also sometimes used to refer to the Northern Areas. The rulers of Gilgit (also known as Dardistan) were styled Raas ruling from the town of Gilgit. The rulers of Baltistan were styled with the Tibetan title of rGyal-po, having been founded as a western Tibetan kingdom in the thirteenth century. The state of Baltistan included the area of Kargil in modern Jammu and Kashmir. The two states, together with their neighbours Hunza and Nagar, became vassals of the state of Jammu and Kashmir in the middle of the nineteenth century but maintained considerable autonomy. The two regions were combined as the Gilgit Agency by the British in 1889.

The local rulers continued to appear at the Kashmir Durbars until 1947.


Did you read this news “India`s Supreme Court has ordered 300 monkeys captured from the streets of Delhi to be transferred” from bbc today ?

I guess you are one of those captured Macacas. Why these khasis are so idiot?

First the paki army got it`s ass kicked in kargil...then there was the threat to bomb Pakiland to the stone age which made the paki army into a obedient puppy...now the taliban kicks paki butt in Paki territory...

I think the paki army now officially qualifies for a canadian visa and millions of $$..

http://www.dawn.com/2006/10/12/op.htm#1

One step forward, two back


By Pervez Hoodbhoy

In 2002, presumably on Washington’s instructions, the Pakistan army established military bases in South Waziristan which had become a refuge for Taliban and Al Qaeda fleeing Afghanistan. It unleashed artillery and US-supplied Cobra gunships. By 2005, heavy fighting had spread to North Waziristan and the army was bogged down.

The generals, safely removed from combat areas, and busy in building their personal empires, ascribed the resistance to “a few hundred foreign militants and terrorists”. But the army was taking losses (how serious is suggested by the fact that casualty figures were not revealed) and soldiers rarely ventured from their forts. Reportedly, local clerics refused to conduct funeral prayers for soldiers killed in action.

In 2004, the army made peace with the militants of South Waziristan. It conceded the territory to them, which made the militants immensely stronger. A similar “peace treaty” was signed on September 5, 2006, in the town of Miramshah in North Waziristan, now firmly in the grip of the Pakistani Taliban.

The Miramshah treaty met all the demands made by the militants: the release of all jailed militants; dismantling of army checkpoints; return of seized weapons and vehicles; the right of the Taliban to display weapons (except heavy weapons); and residence rights for fellow fighters from other Islamic countries. As for “foreign militants” — who Musharraf had blamed exclusively for the resistance, the militants were nonchalant: we will let you know if we find any! The financial compensation demanded by the Taliban for loss of property and life has not been revealed, but some officials have remarked that it is “astronomical”. In turn they promised to cease their attacks on civil and military installations, and to give the army a safe passage out.

While the army has extricated itself, the locals have been left to pay the price. The militants have closed girls’ schools and are enforcing harsh Shariah laws in both North and South Waziristan. Barbers have been told “shave and die”. Taliban vigilante groups patrol the streets of Miramshah. They check such things as the length of beards, whether the “shalwars” are worn at an appropriate height above the ankles and the attendance of individuals in the mosques.

Dear Harish_Hyd mian,

You interacted last here, so I am posting this link here. I have left you a message at the link below.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00007141&channel=university%20ave&threshold=0&layout=0&order=0&start=0&end=9&page=1#568

Regards

YLH

#197 by Salim_Chauhan

[Have you ever heard of Azad Kashmir? It is not officially a part of Pakistan. It has its own government and is not represented in Islamabad - that is one of the demands of the Kashmiris, BTW.]



Have you ever noticed how, in order to account for ANY of the deeds of your fellow Muslims around the globe - right from the deeds of that good man, Muhammad, to the contents of the Quran, to the Hadiths, to the campaigns of slaughter, loot, rape and mayhem, to the destruction of other peoples` religious icons - you guys always have to resort to dubious excuses?

This is another such example.

``Azad Kashmir`` is firmly under the control of Islamabad.

Here`s what the official US Government website says about Pakiland:


Pakistan

---

4 provinces, 1 territory*, and 1 capital territory**; Balochistan, Federally Administered Tribal Areas*, Islamabad Capital Territory**, North-West Frontier Province, Punjab, Sindh
note: the Pakistani-administered portion of the disputed Jammu and Kashmir region includes Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas



WHY did the Paki government have to ``administer`` ``Azad Kashmir`` and the ``Northern Areas``? Eh? Wasn`t that going back on the agreement that your accursed country had signed at the time Independence?



[Holding on to Kashmir, just because Motilal`s ancestor was brought from there by Maharaja Farrukhsiyaar is really going too far for personal reasons. ]

So are you saying that whenever Muslims become a majority in any region or province they have a right to secede from the rest of the country, regardless of what the other religious groups (who used top be majority before) think?

Sounds like a perfect example of cancerous disease to me.

Ref HP #215

[``Northern Areas were part of the princely state of Kashmir.``

If you wanna look credible then present some reference to it. Merely flapping your bottom cheeks wont help you here.]

Okay a$$hole, here it is:

[http://www.himalmag.com/2005/september/analysis_5.html

Historically, Gilgit-Baltistan and Leh-Kargil (Ladakh) were never a willing part of what came to be known as Jammu and Kashmir. For nearly 900 years, from the middle of the 10th century, Ladakh was an independent kingdom, its ruling dynasties descended from the kings of old Tibet. Perhaps due its political stability, the region evolved as a reliable trade route between India, the Orient and Central Asia, with the high passes and open valleys traversed by caravans carrying textiles, spices, raw silk, carpets, dyes, narcotics and what not. Notwithstanding rugged terrain and apparent remoteness, merchants, explorers, spies and soldiers traversed the region. Attracted by its economic importance, the Dogra rajas from the southern hills decided to extend their hegemony over the region, and they had subjugated all the major valleys by 1846. The Dogras subdivided the region into two wizarats (districts), placing Hunza, Nagar, Ashkoman and some tribal areas under the Gilgit Wizarat, while Ladakh and Baltistan came under the Ladakh Wizarat.]

And if you don`t like that, you can read John Keay`s book too!

That is, if you can read.

#213 khasi,

Macaca,

I said ``administrative part of J&K`` . I was not talking abt you your body parts... so come on prove me that at least one macaca has some info to back up his tall talk instead of just running macaca mouth.

#213 by Khasi,

Why do you think every one uses the same part of anatomy macaca`s use? You need to understand the difference between human and Macacas like you.

``Northern Areas were part of the princely state of Kashmir.``

If you wanna look credible then present some reference to it. Merely flapping your bottom cheeks wont help you here.

Didn`t El-Presidente tell the gullible pakis that pakiland was on top of the world because - sit down for this - Pakiland had been promised 5 billion $ in earthquake aid?

Now mullah omar`s former rag says the pakis were taken for a ride..

Donors’ failure to deliver


DETAILS now made available about the donations that were pledged for earthquake relief and rehabilitation to Pakistan in November last year at the donors’ conference are likely to cause much public concern. It has now been revealed that the sum of $6.7 billion that sixty governments/agencies had said they would give Pakistan as a helping hand was not all in the form of a grant. In fact, most of it — that is, four billion dollars — was meant to be loans, the terms of which have not been disclosed yet. Of the $2.7 billion grant, most of it was spent by various organisations and was not given to the Government of Pakistan at all. Now the most distressing piece of information is that the donors have not disbursed all the loans/grants they had promised. According to one report, only $1.6 billion has actually been handed over to Pakistan. The failure to mobilise funds has been confirmed by the UN humanitarian coordinator who said on Monday that Pakistan’s early recovery plan had a price tag of $255 million and only $161 million was delivered and received.

This does not reflect well on the international community which was expected to show more humanitarian concern for the victims of this terrible natural calamity. Given the heart-warming response of the people and relief agencies not just in Pakistan but all over the world, one had expected the governments to do better. They did show plenty of concern and promised to extend monetary assistance. Regrettably, the concern expressed then has proved to be verbal and the large amounts pledged have not been fully paid. Now we have the prime minister informing us that $600 million worth of aid had to be declined because of unfavourable terms and conditions while $1.4 billion is still under negotiation. Will the conditions attached to this amount get the approval of the Pakistan government? It is not clear how much of the $2 billion that the prime minister says has been negotiated has been delivered. It is disappointing that governments and aid agencies have failed to be generous towards the three-million-plus people who are in dire need of assistance in these testing times when the earthquake destroyed their hearths and homes and left them devastated.

While the approach of the donor governments is not something to be commended, Pakistan too has lost much of its credibility by not ensuring transparency in its earthquake relief and reconstruction operations. Since it did not consider it necessary to take the public into confidence regarding the financial aspect of the massive work undertaken in Azad Kashmir and the NWFP, it lost credibility with the people. No wonder it has come under attack for having failed to fulfil its promises. Even now it is not too late. The government should adopt an open approach and let the people know exactly how much was received in the wake of the earthquake and how much has been spent and in what manner. This is important if it does not want to be charged with corruption. As it is, it does not have a very impressive performance to boast of when it comes to rebuilding infrastructure or developing the housing and social sectors. The worst aspect is financial record-keeping. The government is harming its own cause when it conceals the financial constraints caused by the failure of the donors to deliver on their promises, which is affecting the government’s performance.