The General and Kargil

Ref HP #200

[Northern area ...... before partition this area was known as the tribal area and were not administrative part of J&K This is just from the top of my head.]

No, this is straight from another part of your anatomy, and I am not talking about your elbow here either. Unless you can`t tell your arse from your elbow.

Northern Areas were part of the princely state of Kashmir.

Ref Salim_Chauhan #194

[Bongy,
The Pakistani Army was under British control. The Pakistani government was overwhelmed by the departure of millions of Hindus and Sikhs and the arrival of millions of Muslims. There was no money in the treasury. India had not yet released the money from the divorce. In the middle of all this, the Paki government found time to conspire, train, arm, transport, and support the Afridi and other tribesmen?]

Even that dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani will not dispute the fact that the Pakistani Army provided time off for a few officers so that they could lead the invasion of Kashmir by the Afghan tribesmen.

So stop telling us c0ck-and-bull stories about how the Pak Army was busy making arrangements for the refugees flowing in from India.

[I think that your Islamophobia and Paki hatred have crossed the bounds of rationality. Please consider the facts and not the Indian government dictated ``history.``]

Then read and summarize Hodson`s book ``The Great Divide``. Yasser Latif Hamdani, while praising the book, absolutely refuses to summarize the book for Chowk readers. The reason is that he knows fully well that I will tear him to pieces if he misrepresents any of the facts stated therein.

The fact is that Junagadh was deliberately engineered by Jinnah so that he could claim either Kashmir or Hyderabad. If he had not invaded Kashmir but waited, like India did with Hyderabad (yes, we waited till September 1948.... that is right, 1948 not 1947), then Pakistan could have watched India squirm while Hari Singh was still making up his mind. Instead, he foolishly invaded Kashmir despite having a Standstill Agreement with the Government of Kashmir and Hari Singh had no choice but to sign up with India.

And the foolishness of Jinnah knew no bounds. When Sardar Patel offered him Kashmir if he would forget about Hyderabad, the idiot thought he could have both.... and ended up with very little. Actually, you guys ended up with the Mirpuris who are bombing trains and buses in London. Thank God it is not the Indians who are being cavity-searched at airports around the world but Pakistanis. There, but for the grace of Allah, go I!

Ref Salim_Chauhan @197

[Remember, it was Nehru who took the whole matter to the UN and it was Nehru who sidelined the UN once his goal was achieved - a ceasefire.]

Actually, India was turning the tide and winning back Kashmir from Pakistan when Nehru on the advice of Mountbatten took the matter to the UN which demanded a ceasefire.

Nehru`s goal was not a ceasefire but trying to undo Pakistani aggression. He was mistaken about the altruism of the Big Powers or the true nature of realpolitik.

Ref Salim_Chauhan #204

[Also, why did the Nicobar and Andaman Islands become part of India? Was there ever a plebiscite there?]

The Andamanese did not ask for a plebiscite. And Jinnah did not ask the British to hand over the Andamans to Pakistan. You know, the Andamanese and Nicobarese are not Muslims so any such demand would have been laughable AND laughed out.

[In fact, we can go on and on about other places too - including Goa, which was NOT a prat of India in 1947 but became a part in the very early 60s. So, let`s talk about Pondicherry, Diu, and Daman as well.]

Actually, the Indian government talked nicely to the French government who decided to hand over Pondicherry to India. And it happened in 1955. Not just Pondicherry but enclaves like Yenam, Mahe and Chandernagore too.

We tried talking to the Portuguese government too. But you know, it was an unrepresentative government in Portugal with a dictator in power who was not willing to listen to reason. So we had to walk in and take over the place.

Now, unrepresentative dictatorial government...... that WAS the reason we refused to talk with Pakistan in the early days and carry out the plebiscite in Kashmir! How consistent we Hindus are! Do you like that?

#208, as long as that wall runs somewhere near Pathankot to Himachal. :)

#207 untill then a nice wall contract to the palestinian contractor who build that effective wall will do.

#206, Shishapa,
I know that many people will not like my suggestion, but here goes.

While true reunification may be poison to many Indians and Pakistanis, how about demilitarization of almost all areas, open borders, freedom to travel, do business, invest, live, and prosper? If local rule becomes more important than federal administration in BOTH India and Pakistan then we can have recognized, peaceful, and porous borders with autonomy being at the local level. Just a dream.

Salim,

Good questions. I do not have answers to them.

But because India did not keep its commitment, Pakistan annexing
Northern Areas does not sound right! BTW, what reasons did
wily Nehru give to not honour the ceasefire/plebiscite agreement?

So even more reasons to keep what each country has got/administers.
Forget about plebiscite, moral/diplomatic support etc..
Get on with the life. What say you?

Shishapa,
I am just debating a point here. Partition and how it materialized is a very sad sad chapter (notice I did not use the word page!) in history. I wish that the division had not happened and we didn`t have to decipher and debate each and every part of undivided India.

Shishapa,
I think that these areas became part of Pakistan because of old age caused by India`s refusal to conduct a plebiscite in all of J&K. :)

Also, why did the Nicobar and Andaman Islands become part of India? Was there ever a plebiscite there? In fact, we can go on and on about other places too - including Goa, which was NOT a prat of India in 1947 but became a part in the very early 60s. So, let`s talk about Pondicherry, Diu, and Daman as well.

So how did Northern Areas become part of Pakistan if they were
not in 1947 at the time of partition?
How and exactly when did Pakistan`s rule came to be in this area?
Was there a referendum/plebicite something? They were just annexed?

HP,

You were right. The Northern Areas, while being a part of Pakistan and NOT Azad Kashmir, are separate from NWFP.
Thanks,

Northern Areas, Pakistan




Shown in green is the Kashmiri region under Pakistani control. The dark-brown region represents Indian-controlled Jammu and Kashmir while the Aksai Chin is under Chinese occupation


Reflection of Diran peak (left, 7,257m) and Rakaposhi (right, 7,788m, peak not visible) as viewed from Tagafari base camp, Northern Areas of Pakistan.

The Northern Areas, or Gilgit-Baltistan, or Balawaristan is the northernmost region of Pakistan, with a population of approximately 1.1 million. The entire area including Gilgit and Baltistan was known as the Gilgit Agency till October, 1947. India does not recognize the Northern Areas as belonging to Pakistan and calls the region encompassing Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas ``Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK)``.
Geography
Borders
To the north is the Wakhan corridor of Afghanistan, a narrow strip of land that separates Pakistan from Tajikistan. To the northeast is the Xinjiang territory of China. To the southeast is Jammu and Kashmir, a disputed territory controlled by India. To the south is Azad Kashmir and to the west and southwest lies the North-West Frontier Province.
Area
The Northern Areas collectively comprise a territory of 27,991 mi² (72,496 km²).
Mountains
The Northern Areas have some of the worlds highest mountain ranges — the main ranges are the Karakoram and the western Himalayas. The Pamir mountains are to the north, and the Hindu Kush lies to the west.
Subdivisions
The Northern Areas comprise the two districts of Baltistan and the three districts of Gilgit (where the capital, the city of Gilgit, is located).

#200, HP,
I think that the Northern Area was always a distinct area, even within the Dogra J&K raj. However, some time later, perhaps during Zia days, NA became part of NWFP, which may have been overturned - I hope that you are right.

#199 by Salim_Chauhan

Northern area is not part of NWFP. It is federally administered. before partition this area was known as the tribal area and were not administrative part of J&K This is just from the top of my head. Will have to look up for more details.

Shishapa,
I think that the Northern Areas were transferred to NWFP - a very unpopular move among the Baltis and others. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that.

#196 Krishna_abcd {````Tell me, why then did they choose to include that part of Kashmir as Pakistani territory? They could just have honoured the treaty, instead of consolidating their position and making it ``officially`` part of Pakistan. ````}

Krishna,
Have you ever heard of Azad Kashmir? It is not officially a part of Pakistan. It has its own government and is not represented in Islamabad - that is one of the demands of the Kashmiris, BTW.

It was India that ``incorporated`` J&K into its own Indian Union without respecting the plebiscite demanded by the Security Council Resolution - whose permament member you now want to become. Remember, it was Nehru who took the whole matter to the UN and it was Nehru who sidelined the UN once his goal was achieved - a ceasefire.

Holding on to Kashmir, just because Motilal`s ancestor was brought from there by Maharaja Farrukhsiyaar is really going too far for personal reasons.