The General and Kargil

#192

ok grandstanding apart, do you really believe that the Afridi`s raided Kashmir without support from the Pakistan government?

Bongy,
The Pakistani Army was under British control. The Pakistani government was overwhelmed by the departure of millions of Hindus and Sikhs and the arrival of millions of Muslims. There was no money in the treasury. India had not yet released the money from the divorce. In the middle of all this, the Paki government found time to conspire, train, arm, transport, and support the Afridi and other tribesmen?

I think that your Islamophobia and Paki hatred have crossed the bounds of rationality. Please consider the facts and not the Indian government dictated ``history.`` Remember the point I made about the Indian government dictated ``geography`` that places Gilgit, Skardu, and the surviving part of Muzaffarabad in India. :) LOL

#194

as you already convinced me training, arming, transporting was no big deal, they just needed to be pointed in the right direction, so I dotn see how you can then ten point to it being logistically implausible.

#186 by Salim_Chauhan


[First you twist facts, create your own version of aggressor/victim, and then your delude yourself into faking and claiming victory. If that is all you want, go ahead and declare yourself a self-proclaimed winner - both you and I are aware of the TRUTH. ]

As expected, when cornered, you resort to ad-hominems.

[Pakistan DID NOT invade Kashmir. There was a genuine uprising by the local Muslim-majority Kashmiri population agains the ruthless rule of the Dogra raj. The Kashmiri refugees, with their tales of horror, arrived in Pakistan and were a catalyst for a Pathan-led Jihad against the State forces of J&K. When the Dogras were facing defeat all over Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh asked for Indian help. India said that it would help ONLY if he acceded to India, which he did out of sheer desperation. The Indian regular army beat back the invaders who had succumbed to looting and not holding territory - which is why Punch, Uri, and places like Kargil were lost to Indian forces. In the north, it was the Gilgit Scouts and rebellious forces of the Maharaja`s own army who were fighting for freedom from Dogra rule. Pakistani forces were not able to intervene because of their British officers. When they did, it was to stop the total collapse of the Kashmiri freedom struggle and to check the advance of the Indian forces into what is Azad Kashmir. ]


The above is so full of holes that it resembles swiss cheese. But I don`t have time to delve into that right now (I will, later). So let`s just ASSUME that everything you say above is true.

So NOW could you answer my question (from my Post#145) that you have so skillfully evaded:

``Tell me, why then did they choose to include that part of Kashmir as Pakistani territory? They could just have honoured the treaty, instead of consolidating their position and making it ``officially`` part of Pakistan. ``



[Now, if you think that the Maharaja`s accession to India was legitimate, why didn`t India recognize the Nawab of Junagadh`s accession to Pakistan which was declared and accepted in within weeks of independence in 1947? So, it`s OK for the Hindu Maharaja to accede Muslim Kashmir to India, but not OK for the Muslim Nawab to accede Hindu Junagadh to Pakistan? ]

We will address this point AFTER you answer my question.


[Krishna, your logic of ``heads I win, tails you lose,`` is no different from your mantra of ``Ram Ram japna, paraya maal apna.`` ]

In Pakistan, as in Bangladesh, the richer community were the Hindus. When they were driven out, their property was misappropriated by the muslim hordes. ``Paraya maal apna`` is a slogan started by Muhammad and his bunch of cutthroats. Ask me - I will quote chapter and verse from historic references.

#196 Krishna_abcd {````Tell me, why then did they choose to include that part of Kashmir as Pakistani territory? They could just have honoured the treaty, instead of consolidating their position and making it ``officially`` part of Pakistan. ````}

Krishna,
Have you ever heard of Azad Kashmir? It is not officially a part of Pakistan. It has its own government and is not represented in Islamabad - that is one of the demands of the Kashmiris, BTW.

It was India that ``incorporated`` J&K into its own Indian Union without respecting the plebiscite demanded by the Security Council Resolution - whose permament member you now want to become. Remember, it was Nehru who took the whole matter to the UN and it was Nehru who sidelined the UN once his goal was achieved - a ceasefire.

Holding on to Kashmir, just because Motilal`s ancestor was brought from there by Maharaja Farrukhsiyaar is really going too far for personal reasons.

Re: # 197

Salim,

Does Azad Kashmir include Northern Areas like Balitstan and gilgit
and Skardu, the area that borders China etc.?

Shishapa,
I think that the Northern Areas were transferred to NWFP - a very unpopular move among the Baltis and others. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that.

#199 by Salim_Chauhan

Northern area is not part of NWFP. It is federally administered. before partition this area was known as the tribal area and were not administrative part of J&K This is just from the top of my head. Will have to look up for more details.

#200, HP,
I think that the Northern Area was always a distinct area, even within the Dogra J&K raj. However, some time later, perhaps during Zia days, NA became part of NWFP, which may have been overturned - I hope that you are right.

HP,

You were right. The Northern Areas, while being a part of Pakistan and NOT Azad Kashmir, are separate from NWFP.
Thanks,

Northern Areas, Pakistan




Shown in green is the Kashmiri region under Pakistani control. The dark-brown region represents Indian-controlled Jammu and Kashmir while the Aksai Chin is under Chinese occupation


Reflection of Diran peak (left, 7,257m) and Rakaposhi (right, 7,788m, peak not visible) as viewed from Tagafari base camp, Northern Areas of Pakistan.

The Northern Areas, or Gilgit-Baltistan, or Balawaristan is the northernmost region of Pakistan, with a population of approximately 1.1 million. The entire area including Gilgit and Baltistan was known as the Gilgit Agency till October, 1947. India does not recognize the Northern Areas as belonging to Pakistan and calls the region encompassing Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas ``Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK)``.
Geography
Borders
To the north is the Wakhan corridor of Afghanistan, a narrow strip of land that separates Pakistan from Tajikistan. To the northeast is the Xinjiang territory of China. To the southeast is Jammu and Kashmir, a disputed territory controlled by India. To the south is Azad Kashmir and to the west and southwest lies the North-West Frontier Province.
Area
The Northern Areas collectively comprise a territory of 27,991 mi² (72,496 km²).
Mountains
The Northern Areas have some of the worlds highest mountain ranges — the main ranges are the Karakoram and the western Himalayas. The Pamir mountains are to the north, and the Hindu Kush lies to the west.
Subdivisions
The Northern Areas comprise the two districts of Baltistan and the three districts of Gilgit (where the capital, the city of Gilgit, is located).

So how did Northern Areas become part of Pakistan if they were
not in 1947 at the time of partition?
How and exactly when did Pakistan`s rule came to be in this area?
Was there a referendum/plebicite something? They were just annexed?

Shishapa,
I think that these areas became part of Pakistan because of old age caused by India`s refusal to conduct a plebiscite in all of J&K. :)

Also, why did the Nicobar and Andaman Islands become part of India? Was there ever a plebiscite there? In fact, we can go on and on about other places too - including Goa, which was NOT a prat of India in 1947 but became a part in the very early 60s. So, let`s talk about Pondicherry, Diu, and Daman as well.

Shishapa,
I am just debating a point here. Partition and how it materialized is a very sad sad chapter (notice I did not use the word page!) in history. I wish that the division had not happened and we didn`t have to decipher and debate each and every part of undivided India.

Salim,

Good questions. I do not have answers to them.

But because India did not keep its commitment, Pakistan annexing
Northern Areas does not sound right! BTW, what reasons did
wily Nehru give to not honour the ceasefire/plebiscite agreement?

So even more reasons to keep what each country has got/administers.
Forget about plebiscite, moral/diplomatic support etc..
Get on with the life. What say you?

#206, Shishapa,
I know that many people will not like my suggestion, but here goes.

While true reunification may be poison to many Indians and Pakistanis, how about demilitarization of almost all areas, open borders, freedom to travel, do business, invest, live, and prosper? If local rule becomes more important than federal administration in BOTH India and Pakistan then we can have recognized, peaceful, and porous borders with autonomy being at the local level. Just a dream.

#207 untill then a nice wall contract to the palestinian contractor who build that effective wall will do.