The General and Kargil
Aparna Pande October 8, 2006
#65 Posted by bjkumar on October 9, 2006 2:35:13 pm
Ama Salim,
Don`t buy the Pakistani General`s lines - i.e., lies!
(1) You know he and his group are a bunch of liars with only one objective - to promote their own well-being - they don`t believe in any of the crap that they sell to their gullibles! The officers by and large are not fundamentalists, just power hungry and have no ``national`` interests or honors to consider if their own self-interests are threatened - they don`t know any other way. By now, it ought to be obvious.
(2) Kargil was the stupidest thing the Pakistani Khakis ever did - in my opinion, based on what was the inevitable result of their own decades-long braggadacio - they started believing in all the stereotypes of Indians they had been creating over time in their own minds. The reality was different and woke them up in a jiffy.
(3) Kargil was an utterly cowardly thing to do. Not acknowledging your own dead soldiers is the worst damage you can do to inflict on the psyche of the average soldier and the average citizen! It forever set an image of cowardice from which the Pakistani khakis will not recover for the next 20 years or more - because nobody in the presently alive generations is EVER going to forget it.
(4) Kargil was a highly dangerous thing to do - because once you start a war, ANYTHING can happen - including (the less likely but possible) use of nukes. Guess which of the two countries would be damaged seriously and which would be total history by this time?!!
There is absolutely no honest way to balance that level of super idiocy with any of the ``intelligence`` failure on the part of the Indians who were duped by the ``peace`` initiative then taking place!
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#66 Posted by Ranjit on October 9, 2006 3:28:08 pm
Re:salim_chauhan#61
[...If this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns to emotionally upset, even much more than the Pakis who ostensibly lost this war, at the mere mention of Kargil? ...]
Salim bhai, Indians are not upset by the Kargil conflict per se. We are upset primarily because we were stabbed in the back. At that time, Vajpayee had broken the ice with Nawaz Sharif and there were great expectations of a reconciliation with Pak. All of a sudden, without any provocation, Pakistan launched this futile invasion.
As you know, it hurts a lot more when someone stabs you in the back as compared to a straight forward fight. The deception and the betrayal caused more fury than the actual attack. As a result, even to this day, there is little trust with Pakistan and we dont see compromises on even minor issues. That is the sad legacy of Kargil, along with the needless death and injuries to so many people.
[...If this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns to emotionally upset, even much more than the Pakis who ostensibly lost this war, at the mere mention of Kargil? ...]
Salim bhai, Indians are not upset by the Kargil conflict per se. We are upset primarily because we were stabbed in the back. At that time, Vajpayee had broken the ice with Nawaz Sharif and there were great expectations of a reconciliation with Pak. All of a sudden, without any provocation, Pakistan launched this futile invasion.
As you know, it hurts a lot more when someone stabs you in the back as compared to a straight forward fight. The deception and the betrayal caused more fury than the actual attack. As a result, even to this day, there is little trust with Pakistan and we dont see compromises on even minor issues. That is the sad legacy of Kargil, along with the needless death and injuries to so many people.
#67 Posted by harimau on October 9, 2006 4:28:20 pm
Ref FARAZ-AHMED #30
[Foy yr guidance the N.Korean nuke prog is plutonium based while Pakistan`s is uranium based...no Pakistan will not get blamed...except for passing this technolgy by mistake to India thru dubai based Indians who were part of the AQ Khan network...]
India`s bombs use plutonium; Pakistan`s uses uranium. Any talk of AQ Khan selling his technology to India is nothing but fertilizer spread by Pakistanis.
While you Pakis built centrifuges to separate uranium, India is using laser excitation for the same purpose.
You guys are using 1940s technology updated to 1960s. We are using 1990s technology.
[Foy yr guidance the N.Korean nuke prog is plutonium based while Pakistan`s is uranium based...no Pakistan will not get blamed...except for passing this technolgy by mistake to India thru dubai based Indians who were part of the AQ Khan network...]
India`s bombs use plutonium; Pakistan`s uses uranium. Any talk of AQ Khan selling his technology to India is nothing but fertilizer spread by Pakistanis.
While you Pakis built centrifuges to separate uranium, India is using laser excitation for the same purpose.
You guys are using 1940s technology updated to 1960s. We are using 1990s technology.
#68 Posted by arjun2 on October 9, 2006 4:59:54 pm
#67 by harimau on October 9, 2006 4:28pm PT
India is using laser excitation
Is laser excitation in the koran? No? then the inbred retard probably doesn`t know laser excitation from a laser pointer...
India is using laser excitation
Is laser excitation in the koran? No? then the inbred retard probably doesn`t know laser excitation from a laser pointer...
#69 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 5:19:51 pm
The same person who touts ``national interest`` in enslaving the nation to US whims upon threat, proudly displays his ``achievements`` in recklessly, aimlessly, and uselessly bringing the subcontinent on the brink of nuclear catastrophie. I wonder what would cause greater destruction in Pakistan, US bombing or an India/Pakistan nuclear exchange. The hypocrisy and BS of bey ghairats like Musharraf knows no bounds, possibly the most bey ghairat of all military dictators in Pakistan`s history so far. I am also amazed at how ignorantly people are jumping on his ``Kargil`` bandwagon. The guy is a reckless damn fool who will sacrifice countless for his own ego, on the one hand he puts up fake showmanship in why he surrendered Pakistan to the Americans, on the other hand he invites nuclear destruction on his land and is proud of it. Come on people, be reasonable.
#70 Posted by stuka on October 9, 2006 5:46:40 pm
``You mistake lauging out ass off at paki delusions with being upset..
``
To be honest, I am upset about Kargil. More so a few years back, less so today because time has passede. Why? Because it was a needless war. It achived nothing. And our people lost lives. Its that simple.
``
To be honest, I am upset about Kargil. More so a few years back, less so today because time has passede. Why? Because it was a needless war. It achived nothing. And our people lost lives. Its that simple.
#71 Posted by ahmedmadani on October 9, 2006 6:23:51 pm
Re: # 69
Your comments are appropriate. It was struggle and people lost lives it was journey for nothing.
Can any body give how many indian military people died and how many ours ?
and the reference. No body knows for real.
Only benefit was for warriors of NLI. After victory over India Northern Light Infintry was regularised in Pakistani defence forces. That is great addition to army.
I do not know what General can do than what he did. America would not have tolerated general war between India and Pakistan as indians sitting in India managinging telephones for computer repair, billing for banks and credit cards would put unnecessary costly relocation.
Kashmir problem is not going to be solved, its nonsolvable as Pakistan wants Kashmir and India waqnts same. Only big war can solve otherwise is unsolvable. Unless India is defeated in military sense and its army destroyed and if humilating conditions of giving back kashmir and Nizam state and damages to Pakistan and Parts of Gujrat and Rajastan ceded and joined pakistan along with Gujrat muslims its going to be big problem. It is quite possible to put 2 million army and make India fight handicapped war, problem is tax evasion. If 50% of traders ,give proper tax there will be surplus of money. People want Kashir but they do not want to pay for army that is problem. Also army is not training to defeat India but against defence if India attacked. That is not going to work its mind set changes war will go Pakistan way. War is so certain why and what point in avaoiding ? I believe both countries nuclear bombas are not real or very good and no power in it. It is sad Dr Khan`s work helped India make better bombs. I do not think Dr Khan wanted this to happen but some bad business people sold secrets to india RAW company for few million dollars. Unless P_akistan get ready for final war and ready to destroy India for Kashmir purpose India will not yield. The ball is in Pakistani court. If people want real liberation of Kashmir they need to pay taxes. People are starving defence and then want them to capture K. The aim and wishes are not in line with efforts required.
Your comments are appropriate. It was struggle and people lost lives it was journey for nothing.
Can any body give how many indian military people died and how many ours ?
and the reference. No body knows for real.
Only benefit was for warriors of NLI. After victory over India Northern Light Infintry was regularised in Pakistani defence forces. That is great addition to army.
I do not know what General can do than what he did. America would not have tolerated general war between India and Pakistan as indians sitting in India managinging telephones for computer repair, billing for banks and credit cards would put unnecessary costly relocation.
Kashmir problem is not going to be solved, its nonsolvable as Pakistan wants Kashmir and India waqnts same. Only big war can solve otherwise is unsolvable. Unless India is defeated in military sense and its army destroyed and if humilating conditions of giving back kashmir and Nizam state and damages to Pakistan and Parts of Gujrat and Rajastan ceded and joined pakistan along with Gujrat muslims its going to be big problem. It is quite possible to put 2 million army and make India fight handicapped war, problem is tax evasion. If 50% of traders ,give proper tax there will be surplus of money. People want Kashir but they do not want to pay for army that is problem. Also army is not training to defeat India but against defence if India attacked. That is not going to work its mind set changes war will go Pakistan way. War is so certain why and what point in avaoiding ? I believe both countries nuclear bombas are not real or very good and no power in it. It is sad Dr Khan`s work helped India make better bombs. I do not think Dr Khan wanted this to happen but some bad business people sold secrets to india RAW company for few million dollars. Unless P_akistan get ready for final war and ready to destroy India for Kashmir purpose India will not yield. The ball is in Pakistani court. If people want real liberation of Kashmir they need to pay taxes. People are starving defence and then want them to capture K. The aim and wishes are not in line with efforts required.
#72 Posted by Urstruly on October 9, 2006 6:32:43 pm
Kargil became inevitable when this man swoop his sword in Indian Parliament and threatened Pakistan with ``India`s responsibility with world peace and order``. There is no doubt that Indians perceived Declaration of Lahore as a sign that Pakistan has written off Kashmir under threat of India`s nuclear prowess. But on Pakistani side their was no doubt in anyone`s mind that baniya has only lowered his sword under his armpit. Baniya had to be cut down to his actual size. He asked for it
#73 Posted by arjun2 on October 9, 2006 6:44:46 pm
#72 by Urstruly on October 9, 2006 6:32pm PT
And you are closer to Kashmir banega Pakiland today than you were 5 years ago?
Indians perceive your failure to hold on to the land you`ve captured as proof that Kashmir banega Pakiland is just an empty slogan for you and when push comes to shove, you don`t have what it takes to defend what you consider yours...
And you are closer to Kashmir banega Pakiland today than you were 5 years ago?
Indians perceive your failure to hold on to the land you`ve captured as proof that Kashmir banega Pakiland is just an empty slogan for you and when push comes to shove, you don`t have what it takes to defend what you consider yours...
#74 Posted by bjkumar on October 9, 2006 6:50:47 pm
#71 Ahmedmadani
Ahmedmadani sahib, as always you have a brand new and perhaps the freshest perspective on issues of this nature.
Thank you, sir!
On an unrelated issue, I am heartbroken that you did not show up on my third article. You have absolutely no idea of how tremendous has been the anguish that I have suffered on that account.
Who knows if there will be another, perhaps forever none!
#75 Posted by bjkumar on October 9, 2006 7:10:26 pm
Mr. Masadi, let me take a break from the standard line of ritualistic antagonistic adversarial statements to pause and congratulate you on your sheer stamina – the likes of which I nave been unable to locate in these hallowed halls ever since the Manto took to flight (alas, the good old days).
In particular, it is sheer pleasure to watch you make absolute mince-meat of old-fogies like the Hamidm – a task that but for the grace of the All-Merciful Allah who made your presence here possible, lazy individuals like this interactor would be forced to handle all by ourselves! It is like a delectable treat being handed over – without a need to actually cook it oneself – our very own iftaar!
As Mr. Ahmedmadani is my witness, you sir, have proven yourself in more ways than one!
And then some!
#76 Posted by okhla99 on October 9, 2006 7:12:20 pm
Re: # 69
Mian Sahib,
I am diametrically opposed to your line of reasoning, as you have probably gathered by now. However, I must concede that if one makes the effort of sifting through your posts and reading past ``beyghairat``, ``dimwit``, ``damn fool``-- you make a strange perverted kind of sense. There is some logic, skewed maybe , but logic nevertheless.
Mush is the man who has managed to align self interest with national interest. Sure there is ego. Sure there is crass commercialism. But so what, there is absolutely no doubt about his patriotism. He shall remain in power as long as he lives. Ukkhaar sakko toh ukkhaar lo.
Love & regards.
Mian Sahib,
I am diametrically opposed to your line of reasoning, as you have probably gathered by now. However, I must concede that if one makes the effort of sifting through your posts and reading past ``beyghairat``, ``dimwit``, ``damn fool``-- you make a strange perverted kind of sense. There is some logic, skewed maybe , but logic nevertheless.
Mush is the man who has managed to align self interest with national interest. Sure there is ego. Sure there is crass commercialism. But so what, there is absolutely no doubt about his patriotism. He shall remain in power as long as he lives. Ukkhaar sakko toh ukkhaar lo.
Love & regards.
#77 Posted by nasah on October 9, 2006 7:28:13 pm
Re: # 69
....well said Masadi miaN well said -- Kargil was indeed an unmitigated disaster -- the man should have been court martialed then and there for his Kargil crime -- then he wouldn`t have committed another treason -- the hijacking of an elected government at gunpoint....
....thanks for General Ali Quli Khan Khattak`s rebuttal -- it`s an eye opener.....
....well said Masadi miaN well said -- Kargil was indeed an unmitigated disaster -- the man should have been court martialed then and there for his Kargil crime -- then he wouldn`t have committed another treason -- the hijacking of an elected government at gunpoint....
....thanks for General Ali Quli Khan Khattak`s rebuttal -- it`s an eye opener.....
#78 Posted by masadi on October 9, 2006 8:22:52 pm
Urstruly writes <<< He asked for it >>>
So in other words you are saying that ``monkey see monkey do`` logic rules with the so-called leaders of Pakistan. You know what you have just done? What that means? It means both sides are macacas.
So in other words you are saying that ``monkey see monkey do`` logic rules with the so-called leaders of Pakistan. You know what you have just done? What that means? It means both sides are macacas.
#79 Posted by okhla99 on October 9, 2006 8:37:40 pm
Re: # 78
Hear!! Hear !!!!
wonder of wonders !!!!
I am agreeing with the utterly.
Hear!! Hear !!!!
wonder of wonders !!!!
I am agreeing with the utterly.
#80 Posted by HisExcellency on October 9, 2006 8:45:37 pm
This is one of the most poorly written, ``bland`` articles on chowk.
The author does not re-produce any excerpts from Musharraf`s book. Instead of buttressing the conclusion with facts, the author is shoveling one-sided opinions and assertions at us.
All the faujis quoted in this article had retired much before 1998.
The so-called ``journalist angle`` mentioned by the author is just a rehash of (vague) media reports, instead of interviews with generals or politicians of that period. Even so, the author convenienly forgot to mention the analysis of respected journalists such as Dr. Shireen Mazari and Owen-Bennet Jones.
OBJ for example writes in his book Pakistan: Eye of the Storm that despite the media frenzy, Indian Army managed to recapture only 35 of the 121 peaks that been occupied by Pakistan`s NLI by July 4th, 1999. His analysis lends credibility to Musharraf`s account.
So clearly the journalist community is divided over the Kargil controversy.
Next time, please be more balanced and factual so that we may take you more seriously.
The author does not re-produce any excerpts from Musharraf`s book. Instead of buttressing the conclusion with facts, the author is shoveling one-sided opinions and assertions at us.
All the faujis quoted in this article had retired much before 1998.
The so-called ``journalist angle`` mentioned by the author is just a rehash of (vague) media reports, instead of interviews with generals or politicians of that period. Even so, the author convenienly forgot to mention the analysis of respected journalists such as Dr. Shireen Mazari and Owen-Bennet Jones.
OBJ for example writes in his book Pakistan: Eye of the Storm that despite the media frenzy, Indian Army managed to recapture only 35 of the 121 peaks that been occupied by Pakistan`s NLI by July 4th, 1999. His analysis lends credibility to Musharraf`s account.
So clearly the journalist community is divided over the Kargil controversy.
Next time, please be more balanced and factual so that we may take you more seriously.
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