The General and Kargil

The ONLY Victor was the Jernail...............he found an excuse to occupy Pakistan.

The ONLY losers were the poor people of Pakistan................

Rest is plain propaganda from a dictator.

Re: # 2
Foy yr guidance the N.Korean nuke prog is plutonium based while Pakistan`s is uranium based...no Pakistan will not get blamed...except for passing this technolgy by mistake to India thru dubai based Indians who were part of the AQ Khan network...

North Korea just reported its first nuclear weapons test.

That ought to panic the Japanese and the South Koreans into building their own.

Taiwan would be the next.

At which point, Pakistan`s all-weather friend China can kiss reunification with Taiwan goodbye.

Will the White House pin the North Korean bomb on AQ Khan and Pakistan?

Let us hope so!

While I was rather unimpressed by the memoir... the number of maccaca chaddis the book has put on fire has forced me to change my opinion.

The dictator`s book is a description of twisted facts which is bringing all sorts of negatives to the very cause of Pakistan but who cares as long as his dummy authored book is earning him massive royalties. It seems he was aware of the fact that he would be standing in a real `line of fire` of criticism by publishing the controversial autobiography, hence the name, In the Line of Fire, but he doesn`t seem to be bothered by any such thing as he is enjoying his supermacy over the deprived people of Pakistan via his commando uniform added by the support of his masters in the New World.

Evvery Pakistani Jernail has distorted historical ``facts`` to corroborate contemporary political perspectives and justify military adventurism. No winder Musharaff is trying to justify himself while holding the power in Pakistan and threatening the world of bringing it down to knees.
If the people of Pakistan, despite not being impressed by his Musharaff-Nama , feel that he is right in the best interest of Pakistani nationhood (whatever that means!!) , then nobody can save Pakistan................

Re: # 6

Zee Baba,

I cant believe my eyes seeing ur post, a very objective post after a long time. Thanks.

The Kargil horse has been flogged enough on both sides.

It was a failure for Pak because it could not achieve its objectives from the operation, and a failure for India because it could neither foresee nor intercept loss of its strategic positions and had to deploy 4 army divisions plus airforce to dislodge just 5 battalions of Paks, at such heavy casualties that the available coffins ran short.

Thus, it was a failure for both sides except that India had to suffer the additional humiliation of being caught by surprise.

#3 Manto

[...forced me to change my opinion]

Watch the sneaky lawyer make the slow crawl back to get into the good books of his country`s chief executive once more!

Nothing doing, the general does not forget and he does not forgive...

the lineage Manto attributed to him!

It is only a matter of time before he comes looking for Manto - something juicy and delicious to bite for iftar...

Most probably Manto`s posterior!

Pardon this extra space but this is a relevant article for this and the other thread on the beyghairat, to whom enslaving the nation is `national interest`

---

General Ali Kuli Khan Accuses Musharraf of Lies and Half-Truths
The man who would have been army chief questions his junior`s integrity in rejoinder to `In the Line of Fire`



By`` Lt. General (Retd.) Ali Kuli Khan

General Pervez Musharraf became the Chief of Pakistan`s army as a result of a deal with the then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif whom he later toppled in a coup d`etat. Musharraf was neither the senior most Lt. General at the time nor the one considered most capable. That distinction belonged to a Pashtun, Lt. General Ali Kuli Khan. Nawaz Sharif side-lined Ali Kuli Khan for political reasons and opted for Musharraf because the latter assured him of loyalty.

In his recent book, Musharraf has tried to build his own stature by throwing mud at the general who would have been army Chief if Nawaz Sharif had followed rules rather than whims. Lt. General Ali Kuli Khan resigned after he and Lt. General Khalid Nawaz were superseded by Musharraf for the post of chief of army staff. He wrote a rejoinder to Musharraf`s book in The News. Following is its text.

I have recently read General Musharraf`s book In The Line Of Fire and like many others, I also have discovered its numerous lies, half truths and misleading statements. Lies do good to no-one, least of all a person who claims to be the democratically elected President of Pakistan and quite readily arrogates to himself the leadership of the Ummah. Also disappointing was the discovery of the self serving, motivated and false aspersions against my person. One had hoped that with the passage of time and with exposure to high positions, he would have shed his complexes, but this is obviously not so.

Given below are some details to support my assertions:-

* On Page 41: It is written ``I was one of four candidates short-listed to go to Sandhurst, England, to complete my training ....``

Comments: This is patently untrue; the five Cadets selected by the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) and sent for interview/final selection to GHQ did not include Cadet Pervez Musharraf. The five Cadets selected by PMA for interview at GHQ were Shabbir Sharif, Afzal Malik, Khalid Nawaz, Zahur Afridi and Ali Kuli.

May I (without undue modesty) add that Ali Kuli was finally selected and did exceptionally well and was the first Pakistani Cadet to be made a Senior Under Officer at Sandhurst; an achievement which remains unequalled till date. I was also declared the Best Overseas Cadet and by dint of my performance was placed at the top of 29th PMA Long Course; General Pervez Musharraf was placed 11th in the Order of Merit.

On Page 79: ``....Yet instead of me, he selected Lieutenant General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak, who I felt was a mediocre Officer. I must confess I was quite surprised and disappointed.``

Comments: This pertains to my appointment as CGS and is an untruthful remark; Gen Musharraf knows fully well that my career record was far better than his in every respect. I will not labour on this futile point too long, because the professional prowess of both of us is well known. Suffice to say that had my record not been better, given all the connections elaborated upon by General Musharraf in the earlier part of the paragraph under reference, General Karamat would surely have preferred him over me. Actually there is not one single year or facet of our careers in which his record was better than mine.

On Page 85 of the book; General Musharraf gives an account of how he learnt of his elevation to COAS and a mention is made of my conversation with him on this subject. Regrettably even this innocuous encounter is misreported and a proselytising attitude adopted. The true sequence of events were as follows:-

-- I learnt of General Musharraf`s appointment on PTV. I immediately rang him in the Armour Mess and I said ``PM congratulations and best of luck``; I added further, ``I will not be going to GHQ and will be leaving for Peshawar in the morning``. I suspect I was probably one of the earlier people to congratulate him when he reached the Armour Mess and I admit that I was not exactly thrilled at the developments! During this conversation, General Musharraf said nothing more than ``OK thanks``; there was also no display of magnanimity nor were there any conciliatory remarks from the newly appointed COAS who had superceded two senior colleagues; two days later, on return from Peshawar and in line with the time honoured tradition of the Army, I resigned. If General Musharraf is disappointed at my not having celebrated his elevation with greater gusto, then so be it, because I am much happier to be known for what I truly am and felt at the time...

On Page 79. ``....I was third in seniority of Lieutenant Generals, though this happened because of some manipulation by the former Army Chief General Waheed Kakar to give advantage of first position to Ali Kuli ....``

Comments: This is another of General Musharraf`s unending conspiracy theories! I wanted to ignore this remark because I know that the common reader is not interested in our career rivalries but I have chosen to respond briefly because General Musharraf has tried to malign a respected soldier who is unlikely to respond.

In his remarks General Musharraf is probably alluding to extensions of service granted to Officers during General Waheed`s tenure as COAS. In order to understand the reasons why these extensions were given, it is necessary to keep in perspective the situation at the time of General Waheed`s appointment. In January 1993, the late General Asif Nawaz died rather suddenly because of cardiac arrest when he had barely completed one out of his three years tenure. This sudden demise of the COAS understandably disturbed the seniority system in Pak Army. In order to reduce the impact of the unexpected death of his predecessor General Waheed was gracious enough to request two of his course mates (whom he had superceded) to continue serving; both of them agreed and served on. Similarly, a couple of other officers, in accordance with a well discussed and declared GHQ policy and approval of the Government, were given extensions of a year or so, so as to ensure that Defence Officers do not retire too young. Finally, during General Waheed`s tenure, two Lieutenant Generals were retired prematurely, which had impacted the promotional structure.

How General Musharraf considers this as a manipulation to deny him the position of being the senior most Lt General at the time of selection of the COAS defies logic. If this allegation were true, then General Waheed from day one would have to know not only that his superceded course mates would agree to serve on but also that he had decided to prematurely retire two other Lieutenant Generals.

These are surely the workings of an obsessive mind. In fact, not only are they baseless and illogical but what is particularly galling is that they have been made against a noble person known for his honesty and integrity.

On pages 82 to 85 in this book there are extensive references to General Ali Kuli with the accusations that, in numerous conferences at GHQ, I was a self-serving hawk who because of my self-promotion wanted to oust Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and continuously pushed for an Army takeover. The evidence for these allegations comes from four conferences in Pindi, in two of which the great Gen Musharraf was not even present, but my misdeeds were dutifully reported to him.

My comments on these allegations are very simple. These conferences were never held to discuss whether the Army should take over or not and as such the question of recommending it never arose. What I did say always was that the Army must maintain a firm and fair posture and I stand by this even today. General Karamat`s aversion (as indeed that of his predecessor) to an Army takeover was well-known and is supported by his actions.

But what is incongruous is the fact that a person who was such a strong supporter of democracy suddenly flipped when his own person was involved. Suddenly democracy became sham and we now have a messiah who will lead us to his version of promised true democracy in accordance with his own oft modified programme. It also suggests the presence of a private intelligence system which reported happenings at GHQ and makes one wonder whether such reporting went even higher?

Kargil: In Chapter 11 of this rather controversial book the author decides to step into the biggest minefield when he brazenly refers to the Kargil Operations as ``considered purely, in military terms, the Kargil Operations were a landmark in the history of Pakistan Army``. I am totally amazed at such ostrich-like behaviour when the whole world considers Kargil to be the worst debacle in Pakistan`s history and where countless innocent young lives were lost for nothing. Absolutely nothing!

In this book, a totally futile debate is started by making allegations against the political leadership. Allegations can only be made against others when one`s own work is above par and not when there are gaping holes in it. I regret to say that the conception and planning at the highest level had been poor; in fact so poor that the only word which can adequately describe it is unprofessional. We all know that the main duty of the high command is to ensure that with their meticulous planning they create conditions whereby their junior combatants can fight easy. This was certainly not done at Kargil.

It is also fairly obvious that the Kargil Operations were not conceived in its totality, with the result that apart from bringing ignominy to Pakistan it also caused unnecessary misery to a lot of innocent people. The account of General Musharraf regarding Kargil is inconsistent and has raised more questions than it has answered! We must have a full blown independent inquiry into the Kargil debacle.

In the end, I would like to state that I am not prone to any discourse which casts aspersions on others But, at the same time, I am not one who will present the other cheek! Unfortunately, in this sordid affair a stone was cast by someone and unless I responded, many who do not know us, would have taken it for the truth and hence the need of this rebuttal.

I served for 37 years in the Pakistan Army and retired in October 1998, as the Chief of General Staff (CGS). Interestingly enough, immediately prior to being the CGS, I had been Commander 10 Corps and Director General Military Intelligence and as such was privy to most events which have been discussed. I could say a great deal more on most of these subjects but, since it goes against the spirit of national security, the whole issue needs to be put to rest.

#8 Mian Masadi

So the General is a liar. So what`s new? At least he does so with a straight face.

Show me ONE Pakistani leader - civilian, military or of any other stripe (green, red, or another color) who is not a liar.

In my view, a legitimate argument can be made that your whole country was based on one massive lie propagated by a master liar - called Mohamed Ali Jinnah!

The general is just one tiny link in that LONG chain!

bjkumar writes << Show me ONE Pakistani leader - civilian, military or of any other stripe (green, red, or another color) who is not a liar. >>>

Have you done actual research, collected a sample of ``leaders`` at random, tabulated their biographies and decisions and then arrived at the magnanimous conclusion that ALL of the ``leaders`` of a particular nationality are liars? Of course not, you have arrived at a dimwit generalization based on bigotry, and that is what people have come to expect of posters from India on Chowk.

I am sure that Pakistan has SOME good leaders.

Some people of vision, with the ability to tell the right from the wrong, not encumbered by blind religious bigotry, hatred for other religions and not suffering from the megalomania of being the leader of the Ummah!

AND unafraid to come out of their houses!

Now if only somebody could hand me a flashlight, sure I can find that needle!

I am determined to!

I shall persevere.

Hey, it`s only hay!

#7 ... It is sad to see that the followers of the greatest fraud in human history ... that racist casteist bigoted Hindu freak Gandhi ... abusing the one man in South Asian history whose integrity and honesty was beyond question...

#10 Mian Masadi

Ama aap ghussa ho gaye! Itnee narajagee?!!

I am absolutely sure that YOU have great leadership potential.

By that country`s standards.

Look at it this way....

You can beat Manto hands down.

In fact, you can beat his pants off!

No doubts at all.

(And you are definitely more likely than him to get elected there.)

A rouge leader of a rouge country, the biggest rouge was Jinnah.

#14 Worthy comment from an idiot who doesn`t know how to spell rogue.

In a recent article Lt Gen (retd) Ali Kuli Khan, former Chief of General Staff, refers to Gen Musharraf’s views on Kargil as “ostrich-like behavior.”


An ostrich buries it`s own head in the sand...mushy has buried the heads of 160 million of his own eager-to-be-deluded countrymen in the sand...

#14 JG are you seeing things in red these days (eyes rolling icon)

paki logic:

pakiland lost more men, had to abandon the bodies of it`s soldiers and doesn`t have an inch of land to show for it BUT it`s still a paki victory: why? because Indians are posting on this thread...

My response to a dumbass_macaca to another dumbass_macaca would be relevant here:

Zeemax on October 6, 2006

Abey dumbass, according to your own Praful Bidwai_macaca writing for Khaleej Times:

``The Indian army ``recovered 249 bodies, of which only five were accepted by Pakistan, and the total Pakistani casualties of 725 killed included 45 officers and 68 Special Service Group personnel.``

Of-course you can discount the macaca version by a factor of 1/3 hence my figure of 500.

Now answer please:

Your own official figure is 527 killed, 1,363 wounded and Pakistani Estimates are:800 killed, 1,200 wounded.

...how many bodies of Pak soldiers were abandoned?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

#6 by zeemax on October 9, 2006 1:08am PT


Thus, it was a failure for both sides except that India had to suffer the additional humiliation of being caught by surprise.


Yes camel-peemax...Pakiland lost more men, had to abandon the bodies of it`s soldiers when it retreated, didn`t gain any land and it`s PM had to rush to DC on the 4th of July to beg Clinton for a face saving withdrawal BUT it`s a victory for Pakiland because..umm...sit down for this...India was surprised...

An ostrich buries it`s head in the sand...Pakis bury theirs in their rears..

#20 by ugly_macaca

Read #19 and tell me `how many` ....


ROTFL ...

#12
Ama yaar Yasser,

Seriously, name ONE Pakistani leader who is or was better than Mushy. I bet there is not a single one!

And everybody in the world knows that the Mushy is the pits. (Some call him our pitbull.)

So what does that say about the rest?!!

what General Ali Quli Khan`s rebuttal indicates -- that there is another coup brewing up in Pakistan Army -- and the unnecessarily public washing of the dirty GHQ laundry by self promoting and self aggrandizing Messiah Musharraf -- is directed not against the civilian threat -- but threat from yet another scheming Khaki Messiah....

.....that explains the weird I, I and my my that the General uses to interviewers at home and abroad in his innumerable foreign junkets at Pakistan`s taxpayers expense -- it also explains the perks and the favors given to so many old undeserving generals coming out of the retirement holes like termites to occupy highly specialized civilian top excutive posts -- as a bribe to prevent another coup.

what a dumass -- the man has prematurely broken the bubble of a halo around his swollen head -- by his own stupid needle of a Shahnama (aptly called `Musharrafnama` by BulluKhan) by a Firdausi named Humayun Akhtar and his daughter -- indulging in public mud slinging against his GHQ pals......for no apparently valid reasons -- except a guilty fear of another guilty coup.

.....I hope this Firdausi and his daughter get paid -- this time.

As our own Maina bird with an early cataract problem says -- that she can`t `visualize` any other person other than a khaki Musharraf heading the government of Pakistan -- BB and Nawaz are done with -- if anything the Americans would like to see another Khaki preparing in the Army School of Messiahdumb for the involutary retirement of the current Army Messiah -- me me Musharraf -- for his non performance at the Afghan Pakistan border....

#19 by zeemax on October 9, 2006 6:06am PT

camel-pee-max: You can`t quote a source and then discount the numbers quoted in your own source.

Your source says ``recovered 249 bodies, of which only five were accepted by Pakistan`` which means you abandoned 249 bodies whch were recovered by the Indians...how did the indians recover bodies you didn`t abandon?

pakis are now shoving their heads into each other`s rears..no wonder you all see the same kashmir banega pakistan dream...

#24 ugly_macaca

Here`s the source because you`re too dumb to click. Now copy paste Praful Bidwai_macaca article in Khaleej Times:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/ColumnistHomeNew.asp?xfile=data/prafulbidwai/2006/September/columnistprafulbidwai_September5.xml§ion=prafulbidwai&col=yes

Satisfied?

Now, only 5 were accepted by Pak because the balance 244 were not Paks ... LOL .. must be your own macacas killed in the crossfire ... and macacas tried to pass them off as Paks.

Re: # 26 that is a joke circulating here by email about Mushy`s round of PRing in Ameerika

Author: Gator
Date: 07-10-06 17:36

Pak dictator Musharraf is speeding through America with his chauffeur at the wheel on his way to an important address.

Driving down a country road, the chauffeur (who is distracted, looking out the window at the countryside) doesn`t see a pig walk out onto the road, and he hits it.

Stopping the car, he jumps out, and Musharraf climbs out also to see what is going on.
The chauffeur, very distressed by what he`s done asks Musharraf what they should do, and Musharraf tells him impatiently that they`re in a hurry and they should move the pig to the side of the road and go to the address and worry about it later.

All the way to the address the chauffeur, who is a fairly good-hearted person despite his employer, is worried about the family who owned the pig and wondered how they`d react to discovering the pig, so when they arrived he asked Musharraf whether he shouldn`t drive back to the farm and let them know what happened.

Musharraf agrees before hurrying to the podium, and the Chauffeur hurries back down the road.

Four hours later, he was stumbling down the road, his arms full of gifts.

Musharraf in a rage demands to know what has happened to him, and the chauffeur explains,
``I did what I thought was right.

I went to the farm where I killed the pig.

When I went and knocked on the door and gave them the news, they gave me these gifts, fed me the best food I`ve ever tasted and then sent me on my way.``

Musharraf seemed confused by this and asks his chauffeur, ``well what exactly did you tell them``

To which the chauffeur replied ``I really can`t understand it either, all I did was tell them ``I`m Musharraf`s Chauffeur, and I killed the pig.``

Kargil was a solid victory for Pakistan...something the Indians will never forget....itni pitai lagi key kabhi nahi bhool saktey...a few battalions of brave Pakistani soldiers were enough for these ram ram uttering five divions of poor cowards..its time India moves on to a solution of Kashmir issue and stops the atrocities in the valley warna we will soon see another kargil and another embarrassement for the Indian establishment...Pakistan zindabad..Kashmir bunney ga Pakistan...

#23 by nasah

[… indicates -- that there is another coup brewing up in Pakistan Army]

Ram, Ram Nasah sahib, Khuda ke wastey aisa nahin kahiye!

Are you sure we wish to return to the beginning of the cycle?

Another “hijacking” trial?
Another fat Pakistani PM?
Another delving into “strategic depths” of where no man has gone before?
Another IC-814?
Another Kargil?
Another Mukhtaran Mai?
Another “referendum” ?
Another Dr. Naz and various such entities?
Another set of Kashmir blasts?
Another set of Delhi blasts?
Another set of Mumbai blasts?

Are you sure the subcontinent is ready for a rerun, starting with frame 1?

And are you really sure we are ready for the most obnoxious of all?

Another set of denials?!!

echoboom and types this stroy will warm your convent educated hearts

Islamabad: Simon and Schuster, the New York- based publishers of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf`s memoir ``In the Line of Fire`` are seriously embarrassed because of a number of publishing, spelling and grammatical errors in the book, a media report said.

The series of misspelt names and words begin right at the preface, where just under Musharraf`s signature, the capital city of Islamabad has been turned into ``Islam bad``.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh`s name was wrongly spelt as ``Manmoham`` in captions accompanying his pictures in the book, though his name is correctly given in the text.

Even the name of Pakistan Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz also suffered in the misspelling offensive. Thrice his name has been spelled incorrectly, once as ``Shuakat`` (P-179) and twice as ``Shaukut`` (cover jacket flap and P-232).

``The spelling mistakes have screwed up the Index section of the book as well,`` The News reported from Washington.

Asked who was responsible for a number of mistakes, the New York-based editor of the book, Bruce Nichols, who has been duly acknowledged by President Musharraf, almost panicked, the report said.

``We are supposed to correct the spellings,`` Nichols said, adding the mistakes were being listed in a story. He, however, clarified that he was not the company spokesman and could not go on record

#31

I think ``Shock Cat`` would have been a more interesting name.

Other more interesting versions of names:

Mouse arraf!

Man o man Sing!

Taali ban!

Army tease!

Pow well!

Can do Rice!

Chain ee!

Rum s felt!

kargil was a great war in in india, it was the first war which was fully televised, chicks sending SMS to jawans an all. irrespective of casualties, the important thing is most indians felt victorious though are ashamed of intelligence failure and most pakis are ashamed of their faujis who lied about mujees, had a shameful visit to beg to clinton etc. it was offcourse good for raytheon.

Re: # 35 zeemax

I think your theory has weight. One must keep in mind that during the whole two month of combat operations Indian Air Force was put in the strait jacket by Pakistan from the very beggining. This is only possible when there is a credible threat present for tactical nuclear strike in response to air incursions. Practically, Indian airforce and military could strike on any Pakistani city or the supply lines to the Kargil or Karakoram Highwayby using air strikes or surface-to-surface missile, but for all intent or purpose they couldn`t.

I think at tactical level we can say that Pakistan was not able to achieve is military objective of cutting Indian highway 1-A leading to Siachin but strategically it gained at two levels - One, it broiught the issue of Kashmir back on the international table and second, from now on there will be a double-edged sword of Democlese always hanging on Indian heads - one edge of this sword is the fear that Pakistan can (and I believe it should) repeat a Kargil like operation anywhere along 800 km long Cease Fire Line and the other edge is the fear that next time the militant freedom struggle from inside Kashmir will be more coordinated in case of a Pakistani operation. In order to counter these two simultaneous threats India has to keep a mobilized army with in Kashmir numbering upto 700k at times. Mobilizing an army of this magnitude has cost associated with it.

On the other hand Pakistan does not have to maintain a posture of this magnitude to neutralize a potential Indian threat because of two reasons - One there is no insurgency on Pakistani Kashmir, therefore, supply lines are safer and, second, The Kargil war proves that Pakistan has a credible tactical nuclear defense system so Indians will have to think millions of times before stepping into Pakistani territory.

I don`t know how macacas have this thing about Nawaz`s visit to US ... I`ve heard this more than once ... perhaps it`s what their media told them that Nawaz requested that visit.

On 4th of July? Would Clinton see anyone on the national holiday at his request?

Nawaz was called by Clinton at Nawaz`s convenience, and Nawaz`s convenience was 4th July. Kulsoom went with him and he dropped her off in NY for shopping. She came back with bags full of Bloomingdales.

Don`t macacas know that CIA had reported that Pak had positioned tactical nukes and it was Clinton who requested the meeting, not Nawaz?

Silly macacas.

#35

the day Gen Daljit Singh will stand at the head of his column of tanks rolling down the Qaid-e-Azam boulevald in Isloo (oh, I`m sure there must be atlest one Q-e-A road in Islamabad).

Zeemax will be standing by the roadside

``oh this Sikh guy, he was going from Pathankot to Wagah and lost his way, and we Paki`s were generous in letting him in. This is just you macacas making a big deal out of nothing, his car is kinda unusual though.``

``Writing about the coup in Thailand last week, Simon Tisdall of the Guardian coined the word ‘musharrafed’ to describe events in Bangkok.

Clearly, this word describes what happens when a general seizes power from an elected government, and might enter the lexicon of political expressions. I think it was in the early nineties that a sports writer in England first used the verb ‘Waqarred’ to describe the dismissal of a batsman to a fast, swinging Yorker directed at his toes. Coined after our very own Waqar Younus, this word has entered the Oxford dictionary. I imagine it’s a matter of time before ‘musharrafed’, too, is similarly honoured with an entry, which, I suppose, would look something like this:

To Musharraf: Verb, transitive. Pronunciation: mush-a-ruff. 1) To stage a coup d’etat against an elected government. 2) To seize power illegally. 3) To use spurious reasoning to justify grabbing power, and then hanging on indefinitely.``(Irfan Husain in Khaleej Times)


Just to remind Irfan Husain -- that the term was first coined on Chowk -- the very next day of the Thai coup by a Thai Muslim COAS General SOndhi -- about to be fired by the great Thai sinner Prime minister Thaksin.

#35

you are a jerk, but anyway, read Strobe Talbotts ``Engaging India``.

re #36
:)
It`s kinda hard to understand why Pakistan would need to rattle their `tactical` nukes if they were winning brilliantly in Kargil and India was losing hundreds or even thousands of soldiers and they had just lost 5....

#40 urstruly, i agree mostly that pakistan withot nukes would not be able to do a kargil. i agree that the indian forces (and govt) were not ready (strong enough) to attack at least muzzafarabad..they were not ready for the consequences, nuke and others (like getting into a costly war which will cause another decade of economic stagnation like thhe seventies). so however ill-advised the kargil was i am somewhat proud of the way the indian govt handled and contained the crisis without affecting the indian public in general negatively.

one thing that is confusing however is this stuff about ``internationalization`` of kashmir. what the heck is that but hollow rhetoric? there was a question on who wants to be millinaire about which two countries fight over kashmir and the contestant was a teacher (american). she had no real idea which two countries .. and what does internationalization achieve? IMO the last years earthquake internationalized kashmir far more than kargil.

#40 by Urstruly on October 9, 2006 9:09am PT


Practically, Indian airforce and military could strike on any Pakistani city or the supply lines to the Kargil or Karakoram Highwayby using air strikes or surface-to-surface missile, but for all intent or purpose they couldn`t.


Practically, you could have threatened to escalate the conflict to a nuclear level and refused to give up the land you had occupied in Kargil..land that you`ve said all along is your jugular vein..You could have sent the PAF over the LoC to save your army that was getting the crap bombed out of it..

You didn`t because you lacked the testicular fortitude and the capability to hold on to what you`ve always claimed was yours..and then there`s this little matter of India having nukes as well, something pakis tend to forget..


I think at tactical level we can say that Pakistan was not able to achieve is military objective of cutting Indian highway 1-A leading to Siachin


that`s right...you failed..suck it up..


One, it broiught the issue of Kashmir back on the international table


It`s brought Kashmir to the terrorism table..Pakistan is much much further away from the Kashmir banega Pakiland dream than it ever was..you`ve even given up your demand for the UN resolution to be implemented without India giving up anything in return..


In order to counter these two simultaneous threats India has to keep a mobilized army with in Kashmir numbering upto 700k at times. Mobilizing an army of this magnitude has cost associated with it.


Umm...Pakistan spends a far higher percentage of it`s GDP on it`s military...

So it was a tactical failure and a strategic failure...

What Kargil has done is send the message that the Indian public considers Indian Kashmir a part of India and Pakiland`s nukes aren`t a deterrent to India taking back what it considers it`s own...

#35 by zeemax on October 9, 2006 8:37am PT

reality: female of the canine species..

Zinni`s book throws light on Kargil withdrawal


By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, June 3: It was President Pervez Musharraf who advised former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to listen to the US proposal for withdrawing troops from Kargil, says a former US general.

Gen. Anthony Zinni, who headed the US Central Command from 1997 to 2000, was sent to Pakistan as a special presidential envoy during the Kargil crisis. In his book ``Battle Ready``, which was published in the United States this week, Gen. Zinni dispels the general impression that it was the civilian leadership in Pakistan that sought Washington`s help for arranging a respectable withdrawal from Kargil.

Instead, the former general says, Pakistan`s civilian leadership was worried about a loss of face that the withdrawal could have caused and to allay their fears President Bill Clinton offered a plan that could have arranged a respectable withdrawal.

But even at this stage, according to General Zinni, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his civilian colleagues appeared reluctant to endorse a withdrawal. That got Musharraf`s attention, and he encouraged Prime Minister Sharif to hear me out,`` writes Gen. Zinni.


Sharif was reluctant to withdraw before the meeting with Clinton was announced (again, his problem was maintaining face); but after I insisted, he finally came around and he ordered the withdrawal,`` he adds.

``He set up a meeting with Clinton in July,`` says Gen. Zinni while explaining how Mr Sharif arrived in Washington for the 1999 meeting with President Clinton that took place on the American Independence Day, July 4.

Explaining the background of the Kargil adventure, Gen. Zinni writes: ``In May, Pakistani forces made a deep incursion into an area called Kargil, on the Indian side of the Line of Control. Though there was normally fighting near the Line of Control, the area for a long time has been quite stable.

There would be probes and shooting during the good months of the year, but nothing ever changed much; and in wintertime, everybody would pull back down into the valleys, and the two sides would create `no-man`s-land`.

As spring came, they would go back up into their positions. Every so often, somebody on one side would be a little late getting up to their spring positions, and the other side could grab an advantage of a kilometre or so. It was ``Aha, I`ve gotcha!`` on a tactical level. But it did not really change things.``

Dear Aparna,
I commend you for highlighting the half-truths and outright lies uttered in 1999 and now so shamelessly recounted by Mushy in his best-seller. That said, I must stress that if this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns so upset at the mere mention of Kargil?

The way I see it, Pakistan`s aggression in Kargil backfired because India responded with overwhelming force to dislodge the occupiers. In the long run, it failed to accomplish anything lasting. In the case of India, I think that the Indians lost too many lives in trying to repel the attack and retake the occupied territory. There was a story by a Paki jawan who said that his fingers got tired of using his weapon, but the Indians kept charging and kept dying.

I think that Kargil was like Pakistan`s Siachen - stupid tactic, missing strategy, and a shameful loss of lives on both sides.

Jang #45

Totally agree with the ``Internationalization`` issue. I too dont get it.. What does that achieve? Does Pakistan see it as a means to an end(which, as arjun says ``Kashmir banega Pakistan)? If so, what has changed on the ground pre and post Kargil??

Also, what is the guarantee that it will not become another Palestine like thing, where three countries (instead of 2) incl USA do some posturing every 6 months.

SN

Re salim #44
Salim,
I think that Kargil was undertaken by the Pakistani Army Brass to engineer a confrontation with the civilian authority. After almost a decade of democracy the civilian govt. in Pakistan had started to exercise some control over the army and that did not go down well with the army.

Regards,

Faruk

#45

SN, In a nut-shell the ``internationalization`` theme belongs to the cold war where Pakistan thought that giving prominence to Kashmir at the UN would elicit support from western and the Islamic countries against India. This was during the cold war when the Pakistani POV found resonance in US and Britain and India was regarded as the hand-maiden of the Soviet Union.

#46 Faruk,
Your explanation is probably more logical than many others - from revenge for `71, to internationalization of Kashmir issue, to obtaining a toehold in J&K.

Leaving all this Kargil nonsense aside, looks like this mohajir is still hustling well. He wrote a book of half truths, did some good PR (how many can get people talking about his book in a meeting with Bush) and now must be raking in some good moolah....

Good for him and we only have ourselves to blame (of course, more so pakis than indians..)

- Avkrishna

Re: # 51

Thank you. As a General my plan was to ``lose`` 10 km of territory, let the Indians get comfortable in their occupation; establish with international community that it is India that is occupying Pakistani territory and better yet let the indians ``dictate`` the terms of relaese of occupied territory and then one day....poof!!!

Re: # 50 by urstruly:

Urstruly sahib:

You are simply brilliant. While 50 - 100 k Indian soldiers would be decimated, Indians would simply water their nuclear bombs waiting for them to flower. Sir, the next Kargil should be planned and executed by you. If not as an armyman then as a freedom fighter. They need you.

About Internationalization.....

In my opinion, I do not think that ``Internationalization`` or in other words ``political objectives`` were among the list of objectives in Kargil expedition at all. Had this been the case, Paksitan would have started a worldwide media campaign few months before the undertaking. The sole objective was military i.e. to cut off supply lines to Siachin for the winter by either capturing or destroying the Indian highway A-1. Once that control were to establish, Kashmiri militants would start acts of sabotage to destroy supply lines to Indian army, waiting in lower plains, by blowing up bridges and poisoning the water sources etc. The exit startegy in this plan was to let India advanced with full force and fury into Pakistan territory for about 10 kms and then decimate the rear columns at undefined territory with a nuclear tactical device. It would have achived three objectives:

1. It would have decimated an estimated 50k-100k Indian soldiers thus demoralizing military in general

2. It would have rendered area around highway A-1 unusable for next 100 years because of radiation thus cutting off way to Siachin.

3. It would have trapped a large invading front columns of Indian military into Pakistani territory with absolutely no supply lines because of a nuclear blast in the rear.

Hence, I think from military perspective it was a brilliant plan. In my opinion, Pak Army should have deployed soldiers and freedom fighters a little bit early when the snow was still on the ground and use the time to fortify the position. They delayed untill snow had melted and shepards were out. I think next time it won`t happen.

Thus what we call as political objectives are just fringe benefits, but not as a consequence of a well thought out strategy.

I think Nawaz Shareef was absolutely aware of the operation. But in the end when Musharaf started planning for a coup and the rift between military and political leadreship cleft assunder, in a moment of weekness NS disowned the Kargil. It was a political suicide on part of NS. Had he owned the Kargil as his brainchild he would have become Pakistan`s most pragmatic leader ever - one who made Pakistan a nuclear state, one who defied Western pressure, one who initiated jihad in Kargil to liberate Kashimiri brethren, one who started mega-projects like motorways and Gawadar despite an economic embargo on Pakistan, and last but not least the Shariah Bill which is the reflection of the desires of people of Pakistan since its inception. A single stupid mistake ruined his political career forever and had he not disowned Kargil Musharaf could not last a year even if he attempted and succeeded the coup.

#12 by Mantolives

[#7 ... It is sad to see that the followers of the greatest fraud in human history ... that racist casteist bigoted Hindu freak Gandhi ... abusing the one man in South Asian history whose integrity and honesty was beyond question...]

Yes, but what about Jinnah and his sister? Was that a good thing? How come you macaca sandniggers can worship such a man?

Very disgusting.

#50 by Urstruly on October 9, 2006 11:57am PT

case, Paksitan would have started
Kashmiri militants would



In my opinion, Pak Army should have deployed soldiers


Coulda would shoulda...

The key question is, if you really care about Indian Kashmir being part of Pakistan, WHY DIDNTCHA?

#44 by Salim_Chauhan

[...I must stress that if this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns so upset at the mere mention of Kargil? ]

Because if a dirty two-bit lowlife of a thief sneaks into your house in the middle of the night, and is subsequently kicked into jail by the police, the homeowner is still upset at the thief for intruding into his house.

Get it?

No?

Well that figures....

#47 by bongdongs on October 9, 2006 11:21am PT


Internationalization is ok when the pre-dominant international order is actually in your favor...The current pre-dominant international order treats Pakiland like it`s pet female-of-the-canine species at best and as a prophylactic at worst..

Pakis can delude themselves all they want..fact is, the US exerted tremendous pressure on Pakiland to not test their nukes and yet Pakiland did so...So if there really was any pressure on Pkailand from the US during Kargil, it would have easily resisted if it really was winning..after all, they really really want kashmir to banega Pakiland...

#57

Let us also not be delusional, though the international environment has changed in India`s favor since `90 its not all hunky-dory.

There remains strong support for the Pakistani military & intelligence services in the CIA and US national security establishment. The entire generation that is at the top of the CIA ``made their bones`` in Afghanistan fighting along the ISI. See people like Bob Baer, Uncle Milty (Milt Bearden), Scowcroft etc. Whatever their views on the current problems in Pakistan/Afghanistan they still believe strongly in working with the Pakistani Army/ISI (I dont believe in any of the ``rouge ISI`` bullshit).

Britain remains the country most vulnerable to radical Islam. For all their outward westernization Brit-Paki`s have been deeply indoctrinated in the ``Kashmir-jihad-hate-India`` routine. All this while Brit-Indian`s remain disinterested in politics, if not actually supportive of islamic radicalism due to their attraction to leftist politics (like ``human-rights`` litigation, which seems like a boom industry in the UK).

As some CIA guy said ``Indian`s are too self-righteous, they believe that they should be helped just because they exist``. Nobody has ever won anything by moral self righteousness, its only power (economic, cultural, military...) that speaks.

Re: # 59

Pl read as (first para):

Kargil was an operation that was disowned by them then, but owned by Musharraf with an added comment that Kashmir was internationalised. Nope. Kashmir was internationalised when the issue went to the UN.

Ms. Pande,

Kargil was an operation that was disowned by them then, but owned by Musharraf with an added comment that it Kashmir was internationalised. Nope. Kashmir was internationalised when the issue went to the UN.

Recently Mush used taxpayers’ money to promote his book (to make more money for himself, in the process; a clear case of self-aggrandisement).

Win or loss is a matter of interpretation. India lost some soldiers, Pak too lost their own plus some freelancers from their side. Perhaps, Pak wanted to repay India in the same coin for Siachin, but failed.

Musharraf forced the hand of Nawaz when Nawaz wa in power but when Mush himself was pushed into the chair of running Pakistan, he too mellowed a bit and learnt his lessons in diplomacy and international relations in the hard way i.e. making mistakes.

For them solution means getting the Valley, at least. From India`s point of view, how can we accept the propriety of Musharraf`s regime that was not representative, b4 we think abt the solution?

If we look back, it`s Pak’s obsession with their world-view that Muslim majority state shud not go to India. OTOH, conceding Kashmir is a fundamental cognition of TNT for us. This third-option of independence is of recent origin. In any case India`s had to make some choices but in a democratic setup things cant go the way we like it. For eg. Oslo Agreement of 1993 went down the drain when Netanyahu came to power, who nullified Yitzak Rabin’s peace accord.

When British India faced this conflict of Pakistan and Hindustan, Jinnah suggested that there ought to be exchange of population. What abt the same logic now?

Re: # 61 by Salim_Chauhan:

Salim:

``If this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns to emotionally upset, even much more than the Pakis who ostensibly lost this war, at the mere mention of Kargil? ``

Apart from winning and losing, could it just be that the Indians are upset because Indian (and pehaps Pakistani) soldiers DIED? Is it possible for people to get emotionally upset when they see death? How do you measure emotions? How do you know that Pakistanis are not, or less, emotionally hurt?

Guys people died in Kargil. And here we turn Kargil into a football to be kicked around by Indian and Pakistani keyboard generals.

Taking a cue from Asadi: `Elites` played their games and people died. Here we are again dancing to their tunes. I also agree with Arjun: Now that the general has said that the Pakistani army was involved, the Pakistani people should demand that the general get back the bodies of dead Pakistani soldiers.

Krishna_abcd #56 {`` In response to my #48,

[...I must stress that if this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns so upset at the mere mention of Kargil? ] ``}

Krishan responded:

{``Because if a dirty two-bit lowlife of a thief sneaks into your house in the middle of the night, and is subsequently kicked into jail by the police, the homeowner is still upset at the thief for intruding into his house. ``}

So,
I must rephrase my question:

If this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns to emotionally upset, even much more than the Pakis who ostensibly lost this war, at the mere mention of Kargil?

#61 by Salim_Chauhan on October 9, 2006 1:52pm PT

You mistake lauging out ass off at paki delusions with being upset..

Salim #61
I can answer for myself. At appeared in March 1999 that for once, there will be a solution to Kashmir. Vajpayee had mandate in India, and Nawaz Shareef had in Pakistan. Both counteries appeared to be in right frame of mind.

Kargil destroyed all that... I was in Jammu during that period, and can tell you much would have happened had someone not restrained India (who was that invisible ``someone``, was that Vajpayee or was that US government, is another question)

Ama Salim,

Don`t buy the Pakistani General`s lines - i.e., lies!

(1) You know he and his group are a bunch of liars with only one objective - to promote their own well-being - they don`t believe in any of the crap that they sell to their gullibles! The officers by and large are not fundamentalists, just power hungry and have no ``national`` interests or honors to consider if their own self-interests are threatened - they don`t know any other way. By now, it ought to be obvious.

(2) Kargil was the stupidest thing the Pakistani Khakis ever did - in my opinion, based on what was the inevitable result of their own decades-long braggadacio - they started believing in all the stereotypes of Indians they had been creating over time in their own minds. The reality was different and woke them up in a jiffy.

(3) Kargil was an utterly cowardly thing to do. Not acknowledging your own dead soldiers is the worst damage you can do to inflict on the psyche of the average soldier and the average citizen! It forever set an image of cowardice from which the Pakistani khakis will not recover for the next 20 years or more - because nobody in the presently alive generations is EVER going to forget it.

(4) Kargil was a highly dangerous thing to do - because once you start a war, ANYTHING can happen - including (the less likely but possible) use of nukes. Guess which of the two countries would be damaged seriously and which would be total history by this time?!!

There is absolutely no honest way to balance that level of super idiocy with any of the ``intelligence`` failure on the part of the Indians who were duped by the ``peace`` initiative then taking place!

Re:salim_chauhan#61

[...If this was such a major defeat for the Pakis, why are Injuns to emotionally upset, even much more than the Pakis who ostensibly lost this war, at the mere mention of Kargil? ...]

Salim bhai, Indians are not upset by the Kargil conflict per se. We are upset primarily because we were stabbed in the back. At that time, Vajpayee had broken the ice with Nawaz Sharif and there were great expectations of a reconciliation with Pak. All of a sudden, without any provocation, Pakistan launched this futile invasion.

As you know, it hurts a lot more when someone stabs you in the back as compared to a straight forward fight. The deception and the betrayal caused more fury than the actual attack. As a result, even to this day, there is little trust with Pakistan and we dont see compromises on even minor issues. That is the sad legacy of Kargil, along with the needless death and injuries to so many people.

Ref FARAZ-AHMED #30

[Foy yr guidance the N.Korean nuke prog is plutonium based while Pakistan`s is uranium based...no Pakistan will not get blamed...except for passing this technolgy by mistake to India thru dubai based Indians who were part of the AQ Khan network...]

India`s bombs use plutonium; Pakistan`s uses uranium. Any talk of AQ Khan selling his technology to India is nothing but fertilizer spread by Pakistanis.

While you Pakis built centrifuges to separate uranium, India is using laser excitation for the same purpose.

You guys are using 1940s technology updated to 1960s. We are using 1990s technology.

#67 by harimau on October 9, 2006 4:28pm PT


India is using laser excitation


Is laser excitation in the koran? No? then the inbred retard probably doesn`t know laser excitation from a laser pointer...

Re: # 69
Your comments are appropriate. It was struggle and people lost lives it was journey for nothing.
Can any body give how many indian military people died and how many ours ?
and the reference. No body knows for real.
Only benefit was for warriors of NLI. After victory over India Northern Light Infintry was regularised in Pakistani defence forces. That is great addition to army.
I do not know what General can do than what he did. America would not have tolerated general war between India and Pakistan as indians sitting in India managinging telephones for computer repair, billing for banks and credit cards would put unnecessary costly relocation.
Kashmir problem is not going to be solved, its nonsolvable as Pakistan wants Kashmir and India waqnts same. Only big war can solve otherwise is unsolvable. Unless India is defeated in military sense and its army destroyed and if humilating conditions of giving back kashmir and Nizam state and damages to Pakistan and Parts of Gujrat and Rajastan ceded and joined pakistan along with Gujrat muslims its going to be big problem. It is quite possible to put 2 million army and make India fight handicapped war, problem is tax evasion. If 50% of traders ,give proper tax there will be surplus of money. People want Kashir but they do not want to pay for army that is problem. Also army is not training to defeat India but against defence if India attacked. That is not going to work its mind set changes war will go Pakistan way. War is so certain why and what point in avaoiding ? I believe both countries nuclear bombas are not real or very good and no power in it. It is sad Dr Khan`s work helped India make better bombs. I do not think Dr Khan wanted this to happen but some bad business people sold secrets to india RAW company for few million dollars. Unless P_akistan get ready for final war and ready to destroy India for Kashmir purpose India will not yield. The ball is in Pakistani court. If people want real liberation of Kashmir they need to pay taxes. People are starving defence and then want them to capture K. The aim and wishes are not in line with efforts required.

Re: # 69

Mian Sahib,

I am diametrically opposed to your line of reasoning, as you have probably gathered by now. However, I must concede that if one makes the effort of sifting through your posts and reading past ``beyghairat``, ``dimwit``, ``damn fool``-- you make a strange perverted kind of sense. There is some logic, skewed maybe , but logic nevertheless.

Mush is the man who has managed to align self interest with national interest. Sure there is ego. Sure there is crass commercialism. But so what, there is absolutely no doubt about his patriotism. He shall remain in power as long as he lives. Ukkhaar sakko toh ukkhaar lo.

Love & regards.

Re: # 69

....well said Masadi miaN well said -- Kargil was indeed an unmitigated disaster -- the man should have been court martialed then and there for his Kargil crime -- then he wouldn`t have committed another treason -- the hijacking of an elected government at gunpoint....

....thanks for General Ali Quli Khan Khattak`s rebuttal -- it`s an eye opener.....

The same person who touts ``national interest`` in enslaving the nation to US whims upon threat, proudly displays his ``achievements`` in recklessly, aimlessly, and uselessly bringing the subcontinent on the brink of nuclear catastrophie. I wonder what would cause greater destruction in Pakistan, US bombing or an India/Pakistan nuclear exchange. The hypocrisy and BS of bey ghairats like Musharraf knows no bounds, possibly the most bey ghairat of all military dictators in Pakistan`s history so far. I am also amazed at how ignorantly people are jumping on his ``Kargil`` bandwagon. The guy is a reckless damn fool who will sacrifice countless for his own ego, on the one hand he puts up fake showmanship in why he surrendered Pakistan to the Americans, on the other hand he invites nuclear destruction on his land and is proud of it. Come on people, be reasonable.

``You mistake lauging out ass off at paki delusions with being upset..
``

To be honest, I am upset about Kargil. More so a few years back, less so today because time has passede. Why? Because it was a needless war. It achived nothing. And our people lost lives. Its that simple.

Kargil became inevitable when this man swoop his sword in Indian Parliament and threatened Pakistan with ``India`s responsibility with world peace and order``. There is no doubt that Indians perceived Declaration of Lahore as a sign that Pakistan has written off Kashmir under threat of India`s nuclear prowess. But on Pakistani side their was no doubt in anyone`s mind that baniya has only lowered his sword under his armpit. Baniya had to be cut down to his actual size. He asked for it