Hijacking of Islam

#182 very well put.

Re: # 171

``Sahib, I’d think Hitler too was a good debater, and so was Maudoodi.``

The comparison is apt......very apt indeed..............the maudoodi ar$e lickers are the real filth of this whole problem of violence in Islam.......

Good news is that those who are still the slaves of the west and anti-muslim --all the Oon Oons--are losing on every front. The mullahs ( good word --use it often) are WINNING!

So all rationality is frivilous.

``Een daftar-e bay-ma`ani Garqu-e mai-e naab Oolaa``.

All this scribble is gobbledy-gook , drench it first in wine...words made immortal by Nadir Shah Afshaar!




Army chief says British troops should be pulled out of Iraq

By Andy McSmith

Published: 13 October 2006


The Independant

# sattar2 various:

Sorry to say this, but you are on the losing side of the argument. Not in the theoritical sense (you seem to have a valid point), but from a practical sense...

There seems to be an overwhelming number of Muslims who refuse to accept you and their opinion makers are far more powerful than you..

As I see it, you have limited choices: Stand your ground and get prosecuted, convert into something (mainstreet Islam or other religion) or move out..

The irony is that the main stree Muslims in India might soon arrive at this stage

Rgds,
Avkrishna

The march is on!
Islamic-Safe Finance Grows in the West

By JOSHUA FREED
AP Business Writer


© 2006 The Associated Press

MINNEAPOLIS
— When Caribou Coffee went public last year, sharp-eyed investors noticed some unusual promises in its prospectus. Caribou, the nation`s second-largest coffeehouse chain, said it would never sell pork or porn. It wouldn`t charge or receive interest, either.

By following financial rules that are part of the Islamic code called Shariah, Caribou is among a small but growing list of Western businesses looking to make themselves as attractive as possible to Muslim investors. Some, like Caribou, are motivated by principle, while others see Muslim investors as an attractive new source of money.

Middle Eastern investors flush with oil profits are looking for new places to invest, and American Muslims are looking to invest in a way that doesn`t conflict with their faith.

``There`s a bunch of Islamic investors who are prohibited from a lot of regular investments, so a lot of money is sitting in cash not earning anything at all,`` said Khalid Howladar, a vice president for Middle Eastern and Islamic Structured Finance with Moody`s Investors Service in London.

Companies and governments who need to raise money are saying, ```There`s a bunch of people out there with money they can`t spend _ how about I create something for them?``` he added.

Dow Jones has created an Islamic investing index. A Texas company issued almost $166 million in Shariah-compliant bonds to finance natural gas operations in the Gulf of Mexico. And the German state of Saxony-Anhalt issued a floating-rate 100-million euro note _ managed by Citigroup _ that followed Shariah rules.

Assets invested at two Shariah-compliant funds run by Saturna Capital in Bellingham, Wash. have swelled nearly 10-fold, since 2002 from $34 million in 2002 to $331 million now _ though that`s still tiny by mutual fund standards. The funds invest only in companies that are Shariah-compliant.

Islamic financial rules come from passages in the Quran that prohibit ``riba`` _ making money from money. Generally, that means not paying or collecting interest, though some scholars say only abusively high interest rates are prohibited. Other prohibitions are more moral than financial, such as a ban on selling pork.

While many Muslims have invested conventionally in the West for years, some did so because they had few alternatives.

Moazzam Ahmed, a software engineer from Carrollton, Texas, has no car loans. Credit-card charges go on a zero-percent card or get paid off at the end of every month. And he`s got a home mortgage that is a lease-buyback arrangement, rather than an interest-bearing loan, a frequent arrangement among Muslims looking to buy homes while obeying Shariah.

But he fretted about his conventional retirement investments until four years ago, when he discovered the Saturna funds.

``As soon as I found out about it I switched everything to it,`` he said. ``I would have loved to do it from Day One, but it wasn`t available, or at least I didn`t know about it,`` he said. He said his returns have been as good as, or better than, more conventional investments he could have made.

Estimates of the number of Muslims in the United States vary from two million to six million.

Eric Meyer, who runs a Connecticut-based hedge fund called Shariah Capital, says Western banks and financial institutions need to have Shariah-compliant products or risk losing market share.
``There is a younger generation of Muslims who grew up during the last 20 to 30 years that have a reawakened sense of nationalism and religious pride that motivates them to invest according to their faith,`` he said.

But in Western finance, it takes some creativity to avoid earning or paying interest.

To borrow money, Shariah-compliant companies often pledge the lender a share of the profits from an asset instead of interest. Investors who need to earn a shorter-term return can contract to buy, say, $100 of copper today, and simultaneously pledge to sell copper in 90 days for, say, $103.

Caribou Coffee Company Inc., for instance, has a revolving line of credit. But instead of paying interest, it sells assets and then pays to lease them back.

``It`s fair to say we do things a little differently,`` said Charles Ogburn, Global Head of Corporate Investment at the firm that controls a majority of Caribou stock, Bahrain-based Arcapita Bank B.S.C.

Ogburn said when he joined Arcapita five years ago, there were perhaps two or three U.S. banks who had done those kinds of loans. Now it`s more like 25 or 30.

Many companies follow Shariah without even trying.

To build its index, Dow Jones in 1999 hired six Shariah scholars to set standards to screen companies. Out of 5,000, Dow Jones found 1,800 that met its standards, including drugmakers Merck & Co. and Pfizer Inc., BP PLC, Microsoft Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co., and IBM Corp.

``I don`t think that many of them know about Shariah-compliant investing, frankly speaking,`` said Rushdi Siddiqui, Dow Jones` director of Islamic market indexes.

Dow Jones now has over 60 Islamic indexes that track Shariah-compliant stocks and bonds. Siddiqui said about 30 firms have licensed the indexes, and about $5.5 billion in investments are managed in line with the indexes.

The indexes are not as strict as some might prefer. The Dow Jones indexes include companies with debt that`s as much as one-third of their market capitalization, and allows companies that generate some interest.

In fact, the wide range of what counts as Shariah-compliant can be frustrating for businesses that want to raise money that way. Investment firms retain councils of Islamic scholars who determine whether a transaction complies with their interpretation of the rules, adding an extra layer of complexity to already complicated deals.

But some investors appreciate companies willing to do so.

Shirin Elkoshairi, who works for a technology company and lives in Ashland, Va., said he is getting ready to switch his investments over to a Shariah-compliant mutual fund. He already has a Shariah-compliant mortgage.

``At the end of the day, you know you`re living in a house and you can actually put your head down at night and not feel bad for going against Islamic shariah,`` he said.

Arcapita Bank B.S.C.: http://www.arcapita.com

Liquidity Management Centre: http://www.lmcbahrain.com

Islam is indeed nonviolent but only selectively as shown by the Hadees quoted hereunder:

`` Narrated Abu Musa:
Some people asked Allah`s Apostle, ``Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?`` He replied, ``One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands.````

This Hadees, however, does not tell how to deal with those whom you do not consider to be `Muslims` or they do not consider you a Muslim. As it is it is evidently a license to harm any body whom one may not consider to be a Muslim even if he claims to be so? As regards the human rights and moral values a mention only of it is made in the Quran and that too with reference to a `statement` addressed by Allah to the Jews to the effect that `Killing of a single man will be tantamount to the killing of all humanity`. So where is humanity now?

DM, last thought of the day as I head out ...

Let`s wait to hear from zeemax when he returns … on why he thinks Ahmadis are British agents who are working against interests of Muslims and Pakistan (or perhaps Urstruly or Naqsh can clarify, if they have any decency left).

These are not just words … or merely people “skating around the issue” (as you lovingly put it). A whole fu@%#g community of people … children, women, man, elderly … in towns and villages across Pakistan … is oppressed due to such hateful propaganda and blatant lies. Ahmadis continue to lose lives, their businesses suffer, they are harassed for practicing Islam, their mosques (those buildings where Muslims pray) are destroyed while police looks the other way. In small communities mullahs and their hoodlums dominate local politics and law is kept at bay. And this happens not just to Ahmadis, but to Shias, Sunnis, and people of other faiths as well. This hatred and deception is not an Ahmadi issue ... but an ummah issue.

God knows I am not trying to generate sympathy for Ahmadis here. Our fate rests in the hands of Allah Almighty and that`s good enough for me. The point I am making here is that if a man cannot be honest, forthright, sincere in his views ... and uses deception as he preaches hatred and violence ... he is not worth spitting on, he is the lowest of the low, a parasite, a sewer rat, a wolf in sheep`s clothing ...

... and you think mullah Urstruly is only being cute?? Jeez man … what planet do you live on???

Urstruly (#166),

… and you cannot forfeit the right to explain the hadith, you dumb broad! Only I can forfeit the right to demand an explanation from you …

… on the same note, I once mentioned to you that several Muslims scholars throughout history of Islam have believed in continuation of prophethood. You got fired up and invoked curse of Allah on the liar. I provided you a link to their quotes and asked you for a response (several times), but you continue to ignore the issue.

What fu&*#ng right are you forfeiting, you idiot?

You cannot explain basic stuff without passing fatwas of kuffr and threats of violence … and invite me to join hands with you. Have you gone completely nuts? What do you have to offer besides hatred, violence, and sheer stupidity??? Do you even understand what the f&*k you are talking about?

+++++++++++++++

And since you are such a big fan of ahadith, do explain the hadith about return of Issa-ibne-Marriam. And please do not tell me that the Prophet (pbuh) was the “last” prophet. You don’t know the meaning of “last” we`ve seen.

Naqshbandi thinks that Issa-ibne-Mrriam resides above the clouds and will descend down to earth one day, and kill the infidels and Jews. Are we to believe this gooble-de-goo? Perhaps you should worry about Naqshbandi first, and not me ...

++++++++++++++++

Urstruly, I am not trying to win the debate on Ahamdi-Muslim views ... but only highlighting how you resort to lies and deception when you cannot validate your hateful, violent ideology. I`d say more ... but should wait till DM has made the down-payment on baghdad property I am looking to sell ...

Nobody ``hijacked`` Islam.......it is an inherently evil cult that devoids man of his humanity.

DM (#169):

Despite years of going to the Ahmadi-Muslim mosques - those buildings where Muslims pray (thought I’d clarify since you don’t know the meaning of mosque), I have never heard of terms darul-Islam and darul-harb … whether it is jumma khutba, or eid khutba, or a Quran class, or an aqeeqa, or an ameen, or a bismillah, or eid-milad-un-nabi, or any other Muslim event (just rubbing this in into Urstruly`s aching heart ...).

I am not sure if there is such a thing as an “Islamic rule”. A country has a system of government, the aim of which should be to serve the people. Majority of people in a country may be Muslims, or a majority of congressmen may be Muslims, or even the President may be a Muslim. However, this does not make for “Islamic rule”, which I think is a misplaced notion.

If people of the country wan to ban alcohol for example (a futile issue in my view, but that’s not the point), they should elect representatives that would do that for them. This is not “Islamic rule” … rather people voting with what they think is right and proper (or stupid, as the case may be ...).

Quran asks that government should be conducted with mutual consultation, and should be based on principles of justice. And that’s what a government should aim to do.

What if the people want to imprison Ahamdis for practicing Islam? Does Islam/Quran allow such oppression? In my view, it does not. Such people violate basic tenets of civility and justice, and would earn displeasure of God, according to Quran, according to my belief. The matter rests between them and Allah, and Allah will deal with the matter as He sees fit. Quran tells the oppressed to be patient, to be steadfast, and to strive within the framework of peace and justice to better their condition.

A Muslim-majority country, where majority of congressman are also Muslims, and even the President is Muslim, is still bound by principles of justice towards its people, regardless of their faith. For example, if they legislate office breaks for Muslim prayers, they are bound by principles of justice and fairness to extend similar benefits to non-Muslims … and let Hindus take off for their prayers, and Christians for their festivals … and so on and so forth.

Quran asks Muslims to abide by laws of wherever they live. And if these laws are oppressive and unjust, Muslims should make an effort to change these laws in peaceful ways. If this is not possible and if the gravity of situation demands, they should consider leaving the land altogether.

Given all this, I am not sure what to make of darul-Islam and darul-harb issues … don’t even know what these terms mean or signify. If these concepts are from Quran (or even ahadith), I’d be interested in getting a few references. Other than that, I don’t know what to make of them ...

DM,

… and here’s some more on Maudoodi …

Please do not tell me he was a learned, compassionate man, who skated around the issues as a debate tactic. Such views have dragged down nations and led to wars. I have posted these in the past to finger the self-righteous, sanctimonious mullah brigade. I am reposting these since these are extremely relevant to the topic.

Mullah Urstruly tried to justify these also … but then again, he is really a learned man with loads of compassion … and is only trying to serve the cause of mankind as he sees fit ... (BTW, I have some land in Baghdad I am trying to sell ... prime property, located inside the green zone ... let me know if you are interested ...)

++++++++++

APOSTASY

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains: “This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that you cannot escape.”

He further states:

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

MORE ON APOSTASY

“In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith”

And

“The execution of apostates has already decided the issue. Since we do not allow any Muslim to embrace any other religion, the question of allowing other religions to open their missions and propagate their faiths within our boundaries does not rise.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1981, 8th edition, page 32.


MORE ON APOSTASY AND ISLAMIC REVOLUTION

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.


+++++++++++++++++++++

On to darul-Islam and darul-harb next ... I promise ...

#168 by ranjit

[I think you are overestimating the fundo aspects of Islam. Religons like empires go through their own life cycle. They have a militant phase and then they stabilize. At some point, Christianity was very militant and violent with entire focus on proselytization. Today it feels like a very benign faith. The older religons like Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism have stabilized but I am sure they had their own violent past. Same can happen for Islam - it is afterall a man made religion.]

This is the same line used by left-wing Islamic apologists the world over. Would you say the same thing about religions involving human sacrifices? Or about Naziism? That they are going to ``stabilize``?

Okay. Let`s test out your theory - that Islam is currently going through a ``militant`` phase, and will eventually ``stabilize``.

Show me ONE period in Islam`s existence of 1400 years, where Muslims have been a SIZEABLE MINORITY in any country AND have lived peacefully with their neighbors.

Go ahead. I`m waiting.

DM
… and one more thing about being a skilled debater, since you brought it up …

In our very first debate (on blasphemy laws, ages ago), when I challenged Urstruly’s views, he implored to me to have a “focused debate, since this issue involves lives of real people”. I complied.

As debate went on, and his position crumbled, he started to change position and became deceptive and dodgy. When I pointed this out to him in clear terms, he blatantly replied that such tactics are a part of a debate.

I asked him … what about people whose lives are at stake, that you (Urstruly) alluded to earlier? He did not respond. So much for compassion for real people and their suffering ... f&*king nonsense ...

++++++++++

Sahib, I’d think Hitler too was a good debater, and so was Maudoodi. Where did it lead them and the rest of the world? By speech and discussion, one can rouse people to hatred and cause them to do great harm and injustice. Let’s not pretend that these are merely debates and skating over issues is merely a tactic.

As a result of such tactics, truth remains hidden behind agendas and hateful ideologies. Look around the world and you’ll see plentiful examples of havoc these tactics create.

I am tempted to guess that … by turning a blind eye towards such tactics, and almost accepting them as valid antics, you contribute to the problem. Let’s call a spade, a spade, and not try to brush aside the issue.

More later …

(sorry if this sounds harsh ... but I can`t believe you are starting to validate such tactics in serious matters ...)

DM (#169),

I am not asking you to interpret the hadith. Rather, it is an example of deception that our mullah resorts to. And it’s ok if you don’t know the meaning of “mosque”. Urstruly quoted the hadith but does not know the meaning of “last” …

You are being too kind when you dismiss Urstruly’s tactics as “skating over issues”. When a person ``skates over issues``, while advocating that apostates and adulterers be killed, that Ahmadis be locked up if they practice Islam ... pardon me, but it reeks of insincerity, falsehood, and agenda. How can you turn a blind eye to all this, is beyond me.

If you still think Urstruly and his ilk are sincere, compassionate fellows, who happen to be differ in their views, here is a quote from his master, Hazrat Abu Ala Maudoodi (I am posting them here again since they are very relevant to the discussion). Scary $h!T …

++++++++

FOREIGN POLICY AND JIHAD

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65

+++++++++++

Now what? Was Maudoddi also was a compassionate person who delved deep in study of Islam? Where does this insanity end?? Are we to accept all this as misplaced compassion from learned men???????

If you ever talk to KKK members, they too will come across like honest, hard working, everyday folks … who at times “skate over issues”.

More later …

sattar2#148:

I have learnt a lot about the finer aspects of Islam from the interactions between you and Urstruly. I cannot pass any judgement on it as some of the points in the debate escape me, for example, I do not understand the meaning of the word ``mosque`` in the hadith under debate. So, I am no one to suggest that Urstruly lacks integrity but, yes, like other skilled debaters, he too tends to skate over some issues.

On dar-ul-harb and islam, here is my understanding: dar-ul-islam is that part of the world which is under Muslim rule (probably ruled by sharia though this may not necessarily be th case), thus India was dar-ul-islam until the British took over. Dar-ul-harb is the area which has yet to be brought under Islamic rule, hence it is the region of strife. Muslims have a duty to move this area towards dar-ul-islam through one of the four permitted ways and, I believe, jihad is the least preferred way to do so, though it is one of the permitted ways. Muslims who live in dar-ul-harb, are supposed to live as peaceful citizens as long as they are permitted to practice their religion. I am not quite sure as to what that means. Does it mean, for instance, that they must be allowed to live according to sharia, as they are allowed to do in India but not in the West? Should they refuse to accept the sovereignty of the state over that of Allah in temporal matters? What are they supposed to do if there is a conflict between their loyalty to the Ummah and to their state? (in other words, should they accept this situation, leave the country or become fifth columnists in their countr?).