Hijacking of Islam

Naqsh (#217):

You say … ”i have never advocated mindless violence …”

But all along you have supported killing people for blasphemy and apostasy and adultrey. Do you see the contradiction? We have very different interpretations of “mindless”, I guess.

And I won’t get into your belief about a two-thousand year old prophet residing above clouds. You are entitled to your views. However it is your fanatic, senseless violence that I am objecting to …

Urstruly (#209),

Look, you have gone through a lot of reasoning, hypothesis, attempts at logic ... to conclude that same word, used twice in the same sentence, has two very different meanings.

If we start accepting such trickery, anything can be twisted to mean anything. Nice try, but it does not cut it ...

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Here are a few for you:

- Prophet (pbuh) reportedly stated that … Abu Bakr is the best among my followers, except one who is a prophet.

- When the dear Prophet (pbuh) mentioned appearance of Issa-ibne-Marriam (Jesus Christ) in the later days, he foretold appearance of a prophet in the later days. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) referred to this future prophet as Issa-ibne-Marriam to underscore parallels between him and Jesus Christ.

[Re #217: Naqshbandi and the rest of the ummah thinks it is the same Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago, who resides above clouds, and will descend down to earth one day, in flesh and blood, on shoulders to two angels. Are we to believe this fairy tale?]

- Quran never mentions that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet ever. Did Allah forget this detail? I don’t think so …

Humsab bhai

It`s possible that we just don`t understand what Islam means by `Sabr`, `maufi` and `khush akhlaaqi,` and other such.

There is need for non Muslims to come together and study Islam objectively, not to praise it, nor to deride it, but exclusively to understand how it affects non Muslims.

DM,

People like Urstruly, zeemax, Naqsh feed the cycle of ideological hatred and violence. Let’s not make excuses for them by sugarcoating their fanaticism. I see flaws in your reasoning which are discussed below.

What a book says, or doesn’t say

First things first: What Quran or any other book says is irrelevant here. A person has no right to force his beliefs on others, period. Violating this principle is fanaticism without an excuse, let’s get this right. Again, your point about interpretation of Quran is irrelevant here.

If you disagree, you may as well argue that Nazis were merely following their book and deserve to be understood. Same can be said of Gujrat riots. I’ll post more on this later, but this should suffice for now.

Presecution of Ahmadis

Your claim that Urstruly does not advocate violence against Ahmadis, is incorrect. He blames Ahmadis for violence against them, and that they are getting what they deserve. Every now and then he posts incorrect, hateful information about them. Similarly, zeemax insists Ahmadis are British agents working against Pakistan and Muslims. Such antics perpetuate hatred and violence against Ahamdi-Muslims.

[Note: I bring up persecution of Ahmadis specifically for a good reason. Since I am an Ahamdi-Muslim myself, I happen to know more about this particular subject. What I have thus learnt about fanaticism applies to persecution of others groups, Shias, Sunnis, Hindus, Bahais, Christians, and more.

“Live and Let Live” lie

This is a sorry one. You suggest that Urstruly’s “live and let live” comment shows his peaceful nature. How can you ignore his support for anti-Ahmadi legislation and killing people if they leave Islam? His “live and let live” line is a lie which you fail to see through.

I’d reckon your thought process is a part of the problem here. One can spot fanatics like Urstruly and know what to expect. But when folks like you start portraying them as peaceful individuals, you contribute to building mainstream support for them and for what they advocate.

How do you think Hitlers and Maudoodis rise to power? Fanatics like Urstruly line up behind them, as expected. But when folks like you fall for their slogans like “live and let live”, their support gathers momentum. The truth eventually comes out, but only after unthinkable destruction and losses have taken place.

Deceit and deception

This is another sorry one: You validate Urstruly’s deceptive and deceitful tactics (even as he advocates ideological violence) by calling them skilled debate tactics. When he dodges tough questions on serious matters, you portray it is harmless skating around the issue. Such characterization is beneath dignity for further comments at this moment.

Further obfuscation

These men have displayed little regard for truth or human suffering. However, you characterize them as learned men, with compassion circumscribed by their faith. This is dangerous obfuscation, pussyfooting around the issue.

What’s next? An incestuous father is really a loving parent? Sorry about the blunt analogy, but it accurately reflects my take on your hollow views.

”Hate the sin, not the sinner”

Your claim to “hate the sin, not the sinner” does not cut it. If a person professes senseless violence, his deceit and hatred “are” the sins. If you validate these sins, there’s not much left to hate and to discourage. You may as well start writing checks for jihad fund for the sake of “empathy”, probably the next item on your do-good-universal-karma list.

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After all is said and done, you are entitled to your views. I am of the opinion that your arm-chair philosophizing is pitiful and borders on being dangerous. At times one needs to take a clear, firm stand, and say it like it is. Your comments thus far have been a disappointment in this regard.

Islamofascists again...

Muslims` anger as London Olympics clash with Ramadan
By Claudia Joseph Last updated at 22:24pm on 14th October 2006

The 2012 London Olympics have been plunged into controversy by the discovery that the Games will clash with Ramadan, the most holy month in the Islamic calendar.

The clash will put Muslim athletes at a disadvantage as they will be expected to fast from sunrise to sunset for the entire duration of the Games.

In 2012, Ramadan will take place from July 21 to August 20, while the Olympics run from July 27 to August 12.

An anticipated 3,000 Muslim competitors are expected to be affected.

About a quarter of the 11,099 athletes who took part in the 2004 Athens Olympics came from countries with predominantly Muslim populations.

Because the Muslim calendar is based on a lunar cycle, the ninth month of Ramadan - which runs from the appearance of one new crescent moon to the next - gets earlier by around 11 days each year.

The clash will be a huge embarrassment for Lord Coe, Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell, and London Mayor Ken Livingstone, who have been keen to ensure the Games involve all Britain`s ethnic communities.

Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the London-based Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: ``They would not have organised this at Christmas. It is equally stupid to organise it at Ramadan.

``It shows a complete lack of awareness and sensitivity.

``This is going to disadvantage the athletes and alienate the Asian communities by saying they don`t matter.

``It`s not only going to affect the participants it`s going to affect all the people who want to watch the Games.

``They won`t want to travel during Ramadan and they won`t want to watch sport. It`s a spiritual time.``

Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, an imam on the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: ``I`m sure the athletes will seek advice from their scholars.

``They are obviously going to be at a disadvantage because other competitors will be drinking and keeping up their energy levels.

``But they are athletes and I am sure they will train their bodies to cope with this.

``A Muslim might feel it would have been nice to avoid this month but life doesn`t stop for Muslims during Ramadan even though they are fasting.

``The best thing for a Muslim is to continue his or her life as normal. This is the real test.``

The British Olympic Association is now planning a meeting with the organisers of London 2012 to discuss how the timing will affect UK Muslim athletes.

And Muslim countries such as Turkey are calling for the date to be changed.

Togay Bayalti, president of the National Olympic Committee of Turkey, said: ``This will be difficult for Muslim athletes.

``They don`t have to observe Ramadan if they are doing sport and travelling but they will have to decide whether it is important to them.

``It would be nice for the friendship of the Games if they had chosen a different date.``

The International Olympics Committee insisted the Games take place some time between July 15 to August 31, giving more than a week either side of Ramadan.

IOC spokeswoman Giselle Davies said: ``We give a window to the five bid cities. The host city selects the dates within that window.

``The Games bring together virtually every religion and creed. How to deal with religious clashes is up to the athletes.``

Joanna Manning Cooper, spokeswoman for London 2012, said: ``We did know about it when we submitted our bid and we have always believed we could find ways to accommodate it.

``We had lots of things to consider when we submitted our dates, including the fact that transport will be less crowded in the summer holiday.

``We also need 70,000 volunteers and this is the best time to find them.

``We are working with the Muslim Council of Great Britain to find ways to accommodate Ramadan during the London Games.``

Urstruly ji
Ji haaN aap larhaakaiN haiN.
All this happen everywhere in third world countries and perhaps part of transitional stage of shifting gears to move forward. But why has Dr. Mahmood brought religion into it. as if it is only this particular religion which talks about `Sabr`, `maufi` and `khush akhlaaqi` etc. Now this may be the main reason why muslims are so intolerant.
Regards

#238 Trully

Now will you care to translate it - into English?

So people will understand that you are actually willing to WORK to make whatever point you may be mating and are not just a plain lazy bum - too lazy to work!

Like your compatriots in khaki!

Ref arjun2 #232

[Muslim stabs wife when daughter becomes Christian in Australia ``If children fail, the mother is at fault and will bear the brunt of the blam``]

You really should post this on the ``Aussie Values`` board. Saeed Khan is already in hiding refusing to respond to interacts and this should put him in a tizzy.

While it may not be your intention, your article seems disrespectful to certain sects within Islam. I would recommend better use of language.

There are many WRONG statements here. Let me just talk about one that is not even controversial. The Bahais are depicted as a sect of Islam, whereas they do not claim to be such. The Bahai faith is a different religion.

ZahraJ #229
What is your point here? Is that nanny, who happened to be an Indian, somehow putting Islam in danger? Did you read about Lousie Woodward, an English nanny, who killed son of a Boston base NRI doctor in late 90s, and than got away?

WHY ARE MUSLIMS SO INTOLERANT??