Pervez Musharraf Vs. George Orwell

Ranjit ..

I am afraid that is not true... about Jinnah.

Standing up for your community in face of Gandhian Hindu fascism does not make you a religious zealot..

#145 Okhla

Jesus Christ! One would think that this light-gas Hamidm2 hypocrite is some kind of damsel in distress, and all these chowk bucks are ready to defend her ``honor``!

I got news for you buddy - this damsel is absolutely, hopelessly badchalaan!

And as far as your estimation of my worth - who cares! I tell it like I see it. And at this moment, I feel like saying to you - Screw you! Screw you with the same screw as the great gaseous one!

Too bad the Paracha guy removed his ``middle-finger-up`` image, otherwise I would have made a suitable present to you!

In my personal opinion, Hamidm2 - like most Pakistanis on this site, is a lightweight hypocrite! He makes a good match with Manto!

Re: # 144

Respected BJ ,

Hamidm might be a lightweight hypocrite but then you would be a very very heavyweight hypocrite if the same standards were to be applied..

#140 hamidm
It appears you were never favorably disposed towards Gandhiji anyway so this is just an excuse to legitimize your dislike for the man.
As Orwell says, Gandhiji was unafraid to speak his mind - he was a product of his times in many ways (it would be spooky if he weren`t) but he also changed with the times. Gandhiji of 1908-1910 was different from Gandhiji of 1940.

#132 Alephnull
Ironically, in my copy of A Collection of Essays by George Orwell, the essay Reflections on Gandhi immediately follows Politics and the English Language!
BTW, the second essay is timeless and is worth reading.

This whole Gandhi-Jinnah argument is totally ridiculous. Jinnah was a Bhatia Rajput in caste. Only his gradfather converted to Islam, that too nominally. Both his grandfather and father believed in the ``ten avatars``. Gandhi was a Bania in caste. So both were upper caste Gujratis. In fact, Gandhi even wrote to Jinnah in 1944 - ``You are a Bhatia Rajput, I am a Bania. So much for the two nation theory``!!

How much different is one Gujju from the next, for crying out loud? One of them is a racist, casteist bigot. The other is a religous zealot. All BS!! They were both just plain old Gujju desis with the same biases and stupidities that most of us desis posess anyway. We all have racist mindset towards blacks or ``kallus`` as we call them. And we all have our own religious zealotry. So lets take a reality check here, guys.

Re: # 141

This is the same determinism argument that argues for low caste Hindus to remain low caste. Right?

Aisha Sarwari

manto mian,

......... can you please send these illuminating excerpts from gandhiji`s writings to congressman adolphus towns, al sharpton, nelson mandela, oprah winfrey and the reverend jesse jackson ?

........ thanks for educating us all and blowing the myth of this man which has been so diligently cultivated by hollywood - my knowledge of the mahatama is based solely on the film.......... what a bunch of morons ! ...........

.......... i am sure bj also thanks you for taking off this imposter`s dhoti even though it is rather painful ...........

Gandhi`s ``good intentions`` that one ought to look away from:


On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.

Dear Harimau,

Did you bother reading the whole article? Now we can excuse Orwell for that one last line, because he clearly did not have the advantage of having Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, 90 volumes available on CD, Gandhiserv and in hard copy that we do today. Thus his article (which if you read in entirety) is true right uptill that last line which is a joke.

Anyone who reads history fairly... knows that the minority dissidents of the anti-Gandhi camp i.e. Ambedkar, Naicker and Jinnah stood head and shoulders above Gandhi in honesty, integrity and incorruptibility. Infact it would be unfair to compare these three gentlemen with Gandhi... So the question is whether Orwell considered them leading political figures? Orwell after all was not the Gospel either.

#135 Hamidm2

[........ bottom line - i trust my father`s account of his first hand experiences...]

Let me expand that for you, O gaseous one:

“……Dear Bjkumar.....I, like the rest of that crowd, resolutely hang on to the childhood poisoning that was administered to me at home....because questioning it will be tantamount to questioning those icons so firmly entrenched……I am not an utter idiot, you see …… I am not incapable of independent judgment and rising above childhood conditioning, you see……I am only chicken! ……Cluck, cluck!”

You are welcome, again!

Ref AlephNull #132

[So that racist casteist misogynist obscurantist religious-revivalist monster Gandhi has finally arrived on the Orwell-Musharraf board. Let it be known that Orwell added his powerful voice to those denouncing that Hindutva-fascist Hindu-fanatic hate-filled half-naked fakir and hypocritical fraud Gandhi. Here, then, is

Orwell contra Gandhi]

Orwell says in the conclusion of his ``denunciation``

[One may feel, as I do, a sort of aesthetic distaste for Gandhi, one may reject the claims of sainthood made on his behalf (he never made any such claim himself, by the way), one may also reject sainthood as an ideal and therefore feel that Gandhi`s basic aims were anti-human and reactionary: but regarded simply as a politician, and compared with the other leading political figures of our time, how clean a smell he has managed to leave behind!]

Pretty powerful denunciation, if you ask me, of other leading political figures of the time including Mohammad Ali Jinnah.

bj,

........ bottom line - i trust my father`s account of his first hand experiences than your biased opinion based on years of institutional indoctrination ........... i hope you can overcome your prejudices .......

#133 Hamidm2

This is great! Hamidm2’s latest alibi!

“My mom made me do it!!!”

Mian, you forgot to add what naturally follows on, so let me do it for you!

Here is how your full version goes:

“……Dear Bjkumar, I understand what you say but choose to do nothing about the problem. …… I am a product of the narrow-mindedness and the “no-questions-to-be-asked-or-encouraged” army mentality that was drilled into my head when I was growing up ……therefore, I must purposefully look away from the good intentions of Gandhi ……and the narrow-minded prejudiced selfish mindset of the Jinnah ……which is obvious to the rest of the world and which caused those rivers of blood to flow ……rivers of blood which will in all likelihood pale in comparison with what lies ahead if people like me choose to do nothing about it! …… Therefore, I consider it sufficient to crack a few jokes to cover up the problem ……and hope that everyone will laugh and say “Gee, that’s great! Well done, Hamidm sahib!” …… and we will all go home and will have to do nothing about the underlying root problem of the narrow mindset that we Pakistanis have ……and which I, like the rest of that crowd, resolutely hang on to because questioning it will be tantamount to questioning those icons so firmly entrenched……I am not an utter idiot, you see …… I am not incapable of independent judgment and rising above childhood conditioning, you see……I am only chicken! ……Cluck, cluck!”

You are welcome!

So that racist casteist misogynist obscurantist religious-revivalist monster Gandhi has finally arrived on the Orwell-Musharraf board. Let it be known that Orwell added his powerful voice to those denouncing that Hindutva-fascist Hindu-fanatic hate-filled half-naked fakir and hypocritical fraud Gandhi. Here, then, is

Orwell contra Gandhi

#125 (add-on)

The author of this piece maybe therefore justified in her disappointments!

#125

Manto, that picture does not do you justice. It fails to show your vitals.

#125 by Mantolives

Works especially well for BJkumar, though major changes required for the Queen.

No problem. Just paste on a set of macaca boobs. Preferably South African macaca ... !!!

So the Don Quixote barb really hurt. My god, you really take yourself extremely seriously here

Okay boss, no more barbs from me(T)

#125 mantolives now that is really lame

#123 Zeemax, thank you for suggesting mantolives is my pet macaca

Mantolives, has turned himself into a veritable Don Quixote, always tilting at windmills.

zeemax,

I thought that description with minor changes was more aptly suited for any of our favorites from across the border

__ ( hereinafter the ``Macacca``) is our resident Don, Don Quixote , the man from La Mancha. Always ready to tilt at windmills (read evil evil Pakistani)

In his perpetutal state of half-madness and a confused state, he, Maccaca, believes himself to be a knight, re-names himself Maccaca-Le-

---

(name of Indian state/city), and has set out to fight injustice in the name of his beloved Gandhi, or as he knows him in his mind, Great Intellectual Leader and father of India.


Maccaca ready to defend Gandhi`s honor.



Works especially well for BJkumar, though major changes required for the Queen.

#122 :Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you ...another pathetic attempt to salvage the day for the dearly departed Gandhiji ... below

#122 by queen_cut&paste

Hello Queenie. Is that your pet macaca? How sweet ... Thanks :-)

Mantolives is our resident Don, Don Quixote , the man from La Mancha. Always ready to tilt at windmills, be they Mullahs (as witnessed by the great fight with Atif2), or Gandhi (as witnessed with his on going tilts with Sadna, Amansandhu and everyone really).

In his perpetutal state of half-madness and a confused state, he, Yaseer, believes himself to be a knight, re-names himself Mantolives de la Lahore, and has set out to fight injustice in the name of his beloved maiden Jinnah, or as he knows him in his mind, Great Intellectual Leader and father of India.





Mantolives all ready to fight gandhiji

#120 by Mantolives

Dear Yasser mian,

I am still taken aback by your description of the racism portion of Gandhi`s collected works as ``every little thing``.

Just as I am about your claim that I called Gandhi`s autobiography the ``gospel truth``.

Dear Harish mian,

I am still taken aback by your description of the racism portion of Gandhi`s collected works as ``every little thing``.

#117 by Mantolives

Could you show me - since you say Gandhi did not hide anything in his autobiography- on which page he mentions - regretfully or otherwise- his racism against black people in South Africa (which are corroborated by his collected works) and whether he had now changed his view.

Dear Yasser, I explained it in simple English, but apparently it was a bit too much for you. Please re-read #116.

If not, then it is clear that his autobiography is not the gospel truth you wish to make of it.

You seem to have a rather fertile imagination. Gospel truth? Please let me know where I make such a claim.

PS: Also would you say that the copious body of work that is found in the Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi regarding the status of black people and their inferiority can be honestly described as ``every little thing`` as you put it?

Dear Harish mian,

Please... I asked you a simple question for my information.

Could you show me - since you say Gandhi did not hide anything in his autobiography- on which page he mentions - regretfully or otherwise- his racism against black people in South Africa (which are corroborated by his collected works) and whether he had now changed his view.

If not, then it is clear that his autobiography is not the gospel truth you wish to make of it.

#115 by Mantolives

Please quote exactly where Gandhi in his autobiography has admitted his racism against black people. It was a great cover up.

Yasser mian, when did Gandhi (or for that matter I or anyone else who has argued for him) exactly claim that he was the most perfect man to have been born? Gandhi made terrible mistakes during his life, but when you compare him with his contemporaries, he comes across one man who was conscientious to a fault, always ready to accept his mistakes and more importantly, correct himself. I will grant you that he did not accept each and every mistake that he made, but who does? Do you or I remember every little thing we did years ago?

Not untill the collected works of Gandhi came out, did the world learn of Gandhi`s true views. By then, insidious propaganda and clever marketing techniques had already confirmed him as a saint.

Gandhi never marketed himself, nor did he have the need to. Even minute things that normal human beings would hide (like his jealousy when he saw Kasturba talking to other males or his lust for her when his father was dying in an adjacent room) out of shame and guilt, he chose to talk about them openly.

Please don`t give the greatest fraud in human history aka Mohandas Karamchanda `` Mahatma`` Gandhi too much credit- my friend. His autobiography is a joke and a clever ruse.

You are entitled to your views and I am to mine, but suffice it to say that Gandhi remains an inspiration to many, and his approach to various problems in a non-violent and peaceful manner is more relevant today than it was during his times. His approach has brought about change for the better in many peoples` lives. For this alone, he will be remembered for a long long time to come.

I don`t think you got what I was trying to say anyway.

Sure..please yourself anywhich way you like.

Bj mian,

So you have direct telephone connection with God as well? Take some good advice from Stuka. He means well.

Dear Harish mian,

Please quote exactly where Gandhi in his autobiography has admitted his racism against black people. It was a great cover up. Not untill the collected works of Gandhi came out, did the world learn of Gandhi`s true views. By then, insidious propaganda and clever marketing techniques had already confirmed him as a saint. Please don`t give the greatest fraud in human history aka Mohandas Karamchanda `` Mahatma`` Gandhi too much credit- my friend. His autobiography is a joke and a clever ruse. I don`t think you got what I was trying to say anyway.

Mian hamidm,

Listen mian – I will grant you that your views are not the WORST ones on this site. And you can be a bit funny at times!

That much I will grant you – but nothing more!

Every time you make wholesale statements about Hindus, in jest or otherwise – you screw up your goodwill!

Every time you refer to the killer Kashmiris as freedom-fighters – you screw up your goodwill more.

And every time you denounce the good man who cared for every soul in the subcontinent as much as his own life and you join up with the likes of despicable two-bit fakers like Yasser and Aisha who prop up who proved to be the worst poison that was ever born and brought up in the subcontinent, in jest or otherwise – your credibility goes through the floor!

Except it does not stop at a concrete basement floor – it keeps going down, down, down – headed straight down where the man down there lives – and where the Jinnah burns.

And shall continue to burn for eternity!

And I don’t care one paisa on what pedestal this crowd puts you on.

Be wary of high pedestals – the higher they are, the more it hurts upon the fall!

As far as those who want me to go away – you are not the first ones. I will leave when it darn well pleases me and not a second earlier or later. So go screw yourselves!

Re: # 114

bjkumar mian,

..... i feel your pain, but there is nothing i can do to put out the fire that is consuming your tail .........

........ look, i grew up in a home where jinnah`s potrait was always prominently displayed on top of the mantle in the drawing room ........ every time we moved, which was rather frequently since my father was in the army, we would hang up the quaid`s picture beofre putting up the wooden camels made by our kashmiris and the flock of flat geese flying over them ........... heck, i am sure if we were hindoos (god forbid) my mother would have put a garland around the frame, put a bowl of rice and bhaji on the mantle and lit a few agar bati`s to stink up the house .............

...... so, you have your gandhi and we have our jinnah and even though at first sight your man appears to be a freak i am willing to consider the possibility that there might be something more to him than meets the eye - although, god know his wardrobe doesn`t leave much to imagination ............... call me superficial, but i think my weak stomach is more to blame ..............

Ref bjkumar #95

{#93 Harimau

[sadly the Nagas are abandoning their headhunting ways and becoming Christians in droves]

My dear, a Christian is any day better than a headhunter - especially if you ask those heads - I mean especially if you had asked the those heads while they were still connected to the rest of their bodies!}

My sadness is at the Nagas abandoning their headhunting ways, not at their conversion to Christianity. We in India need to preserve our multicultural society and headhunting is a particularly spectacular cultural activity that has been on the decline throughout the world. I don`t believe Christianity allows the Nagas to retain their historical culture and this makes me sad.

While I generally deplore conversions to Islam, I am willing to make an exception in the case of the Nagas. After all, Muslim Nagas will still be permitted to hunt human heads; any doubts about this issue is easily resolved by referring to the situation of Daniel Pearl.

And to think that people are going around claiming that Islam erases the culture on which it is imposed! Nothing could be farther from the truth!

BJ Yaar

I agree with all you say about Gandhi, Jinnah, Pakistan and the lot. I also think HamidM is a despicable raving mad Jihadi Paki trying to be a liberal.

Rest assured we are on the same plane idologically speaking. So are most Indians and Hindus. Now that you are ware that we are all on the same side, why waste your time and effort trying to convince these stupid Pakis who will never learn. Why not take a break from Chowk?

After all, though your views are great, you somehow lack the capability of making your writing interesting and/or humourous. It is Bhagwan kee Marzi that he has given HamidM the Jihadi the ability to write in a way that even us Kafirs are delighted and enamoured...even when he calls us Horrible Hindoos and brings to mind the sideways wag of the head and the open toed chappal.

In short, HamidM, in his brief writings, gives me as much pleasure on Chowk as PG Wodehouse gives me in real life. A brief hiatus by you (say a few years) and a burst of creative writing from HamidM, would make the chowk experience that much better for us all (your ideological followers)

Cheers Mate.

bj murfker,

hamidm ko kuchh naheen bolna !!!!!!!!!!!

#108 by bjkumar

Actually BJ, I`m a great fan of Mrs. Hamidm from what Mr. Hamidm says of her. Is that OK with you?

Manto,

So it doesn`t matter what the world thinks at present...

My grandfather/father always used to say Gandhi was a fraud .... years ago ... so a lot of people always knew it.

Who cares if the Indians on this site like “Hamidm2”!

Who cares if Manto and Sarwari duo gush over him during their most passionate moments!!

Who cares if Subroto and Humsab fondly admire him – “feeling” tender feelings!

Who cares if Congressman Towns thinks he is the best thing to happen since checking accounts were invented!!

Who cares if the Pakistani ladies (by which I mean ALL Pakistanis) swoon over him?!!

His ass will get whipped every time he defends the indefensible.

Anybody who has the gumption to defend the Dead Man automatically becomes eligible to get handed his own ass for toast!!

Butter or no butter!

And Roza or no Roza!!!

#105 by Mantolives

Just the facts please.

Dear Yasser mian, so are the ``facts`` you talk about unearthed recently by you? Or have they existed all along yet no one paid any attention to except perhaps the attention-seekers and rabble-rousers themselves? And even if they were true, so what? Gandhi never attempted to hide them in the first place. He has openly talked about his failings in his autobiography himself, so what is that you have ``discovered`` that is new? And are MN Roy, Ambedkar, and Ramaswamy Naicker the only amongst ones the thousands who knew Gandhi personally who share these opinions? If so, their views don`t amount to a hill of beans.

So it doesn`t matter what the world thinks at present... the world once thought earth was flat... the world is not going to be ignorant forever.

Your litany of allegations and the epithets that accompany them is more akin to someone trying to convince himself that the sun rose in the west or someone pissing at the sky than the world believing that the Earth is flat.

bj ji
Reverend Hamidm is the most liked, loved and adored person on this site. He sits right at the top on a high pedastal and he has full freedom to keep on drilling sense in everyone`s head. He is unique. So, if you don`t give him respect due to him, many indians will be unhappy.
Regards

Dear Harish mian,

Just the facts please. We know that many people believe Gandhi is some sort of a saint.. but I am only concerned with those who`ve actually bothered to investigate Gandhi`s life and their conclusions are similar to mine... and are shared by people like M N Roy, Ambedkar and E V Ramaswamy Naicker.... So it doesn`t matter what the world thinks at present... the world once thought earth was flat... the world is not going to be ignorant forever.

#103 by Mantolives

It is a very hard job and all the BJs in the world will not prove that Gandhi was anything other than what we know of him through his own works...

So tell us, what is Gandhi known for all over the world? His ``racist, casteist, misogynist, Hindu fascist`` behavior or his leading of the biggest non-violent freedom struggle in the history of mankind?

Hamidm,

Poor BJkumar, true to his name, is still trying to fluff up that racist, casteist, misogynist, Hindu fascist Gandhi the greatest FRAUD known to man, a Hindu exclusivist who believed that in order to be an Indian, a person had to be a true Hindu first... whatever that means. It is a very hard job and all the BJs in the world will not prove that Gandhi was anything other than what we know of him through his own works...

There is absolutely no mercy - nor there ever will be any - for those who indulge in underhanded sneaky tactics of covering up for pure evil that Gandhi the bigot was!

If HamidM is a jihadi then I am the Shankracharya (no not the one from Kanchi cos I hear he has a few problems these days).

And talking of the Congressman (to whom mian Hamidm2 CLAIMS he just sent money), it looks like he has suddenly realized what the other politicians have known for a while.

That Islamic terrorism is a BAD thing. Witness the following quote:

The horrific attacks of 9/11 awakened our nation and the American people to a mortal danger that threatens our way of life and our very existence. We need to be committed and resolved to protect the American people and our homeland; we have no higher duty.

#99 Shishapa

Perhaps mian Hamidm2 considers the honorable Congressman Eatallofus Towns (to whom he CLAIMS having sent a check) the American equivalent of Peer Syed Saheb, Ajmeri Baba, and Pandit Maharaj - combined into one!

Unless it is an actual case of Hamidm2 and his money having soon been parted!

(Or faarted - as the case may be.)

#96 Hamidm2 sahib,

The Hamidm2 - Manto duo (or perhaps the Hamidm2, Manto, Sarwari threesome) keeps trying to (futilely) build up the vamp who is responsible for 99% of the troubles which beset the subcontinent today. As usual, inspite of their hardest efforts - the baby fails to fly out - it comes out an absolute dud every time - because it defies all known rules of common sense and gravity!

Rest assured that I have not the slightest intention of letting any of these offensive acts of cowardice escape without the well-merited punishment!

It will get its just desserts!

Roza or no Roza!

There is absolutely no mercy - nor there ever will be any - for those who indulge in underhanded sneaky tactics of covering up for pure evil.

Initialed MAJ!

My feelings on the Kashmiris have been detailed elsewhere.

Manto...first you called amhedis muslims...then your missus said something remotely unflattering about the paki army...looks like you`all are going to jail..

Military sacrosanct, says Durrani
Says criticism of armed forces not allowed; nationalists to be brought into mainstream

By Azfar-ul-Ashfaque

KARACHI: Minister for Information and Broadcasting Muhammad Ali Durrani on Sunday said the government would not allow any criticism on the armed forces of Pakistan, as the institutions responsible for the country’s defence are beyond any criticism.

In a threatening tone, the minister made it clear that the government would not tolerate any criticism on the solidarity of Pakistan and the institutions responsible for defending the country’s geographical boundaries. “According to the Constitution any criticism on the solidarity of Pakistan and its armed forces is not allowed,” he said while speaking at an Iftar-dinner hosted by him here.

#93 Harimau

[sadly the Nagas are abandoning their headhunting ways and becoming Christians in droves]

My dear, a Christian is any day better than a headhunter - especially if you ask those heads - I mean especially if you had asked the those heads while they were still connected to the rest of their bodies!

In all seriousness - by and large, Christians make model citizens all over India. If anybody wishes to convert to Christianity from their headnunting religion, or from Hinduism or from whatever - there is no need to shed any tears, in my opinion - especially if you claim to believe what Hinduism is supposed to be about and believe that it is not merely a label!

Ref hamidm2 #91

[......... like the unification of taiwan with china, the unification of kashmir with pakistan is fait accompli and there is no need to get all uptight about it - it will happen when it will happen ..........]

As I read the words ``like the unification of taiwan with china, the unification of....``, a shiver ran down my spine. I thought you were predicting the nightmare scenario where 150-million raving lunatics in Pakistan and another 140 million Followers of the True Faith from Bangladesh would be joining the industrious code coolies as these breakaway nations re-unite with India!

I have a weak heart so be careful how you phrase your words.

Ref hamidm2 #86

[Re: # 83

arjun,

...... you don`t have to wait until 2011 to convert - according to the bbc you can do it now :...]

One can do pretty much what one pleases in India. If you look at the Northeast states of Nagaland, sadly the Nagas are abandoning their headhunting ways and becoming Christians in droves or flocks or whatever it is groups of sheep are called. In Arunachal Pradesh, etc., missionaries are active and in some of those places, the Christian population is the single largest plurality.

The news item you described was shown on TV by Indian news channels. Nobody called for a wheel-jam, a general strike, fatwas against Christians, stonings to death or any of those quaint things that happen on the other side of the border. The whole thing was rather tame and civilized though I found the business of total immersion baptism a bit strange; after all, it wasn`t the Ganges or the Narmada but an ordinary public fountain. Those who object to the Ganges or the Narmada might at least request Jordan (if you remember your history/legend/historical legend, Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan by San Juan Battista) but then travel arrangement might get too complex. I do expect that these new Christians, who renounced their Hindu religion to go to a casteless religion, will now turn up at the public trough asking for reservations on the basis that they are ``Dalit Christians`` and the Masanamuthus and Sudalaikkannus populating India (and Chowk) will support them.

#91 by hamidm2

Listen H₂ – the light-gas, actually you are as much, if not more, one of the “homies” of Allah as the Zee.

You share the same damn characteristics of liking all the wrong things – like liking the TB-infested vamp Jinnah, like liking his prejudice against Hindus, like liking his screwed up sense of Muslim supremacy and like liking his apartheid of making a distinction among people based on whether they are Muslims or not!

You have the same crappy attitudes, the same crappy perverted “Muslim” prejudices and the whole crappy shebang that goes with it!

With one important exception!

Unlike the Zee and the Boomer and the Truly and even wolf Naqshi – who are open with their Islamic prejudice, you are trying to cover your modesty by giving the airs of a liberal!

You are no darn liberal – you are as much of a fraudulent liberal as the Manto is and as the dead man Jinnah was!

For anybody who truly believes in “all men are created equal” will NEVER turn around and malign Hindus with such pleasure to the point of ultimate self-arousal, as you do!

And like all the dishonest Pakistanis, you try to use very limited cover to hide your “modesty” - like Draupadi trying to cover herself after her husband (like your Jinnah) had gambled it all – and lost it all – such a moron!

There is no Krishna for your rescue, you fat cat!

The nakedness of your hypocrisy shows to everybody more plainly than the green fraud the Mushy keeps stuffing into the rears of the Pakistani awaam on a day in and day out basis. And for your information, the closest the Kashmiris will ever come to “unification” with the land of the Pure will be when courtesy of the Indians, Kashmiri apple or some other fruitcake gets stuffed into the same location!

Which the Pakistanis have no choice but to “enjoy” – just like they enjoy the painful experiences from the Mushy presently!

Re: # 92

bj,

.....calm down !...... and don`t you dare insult mr jinnah - if i catch you i will have to spank you and send you to bed without any bhaji ! ..........

............ look, i don`t understand why you indians get so upset when someone mentions kashmir - it is not as if i am suggesting that the pak army should march into srinagar (i would, if i thought they were capable of pulling it off) ............ so take it easy - who knows, in forty fifty years when you are being chopped up for biryani by some muslim butcher in madras and i am chasing virgins in heaven, the people of india and pakistan might decide that kashmir is not really worth the trouble .......... till then we should at least try and be civil ...........

......... by the way, if somone kidnapped sadna and took her to sri lanka, would you help rescue her?........just curious ........

Re: # 96

May be it is time for Pakistanis to get help from Peer Syed Saheb and Ajmeri Baba to
snatch Kashmir from Hindus.
I mean everything seems to have failed so why not try them? They have helped millions.

#88 by hamidm2 on October 15, 2006 7:32am PT

It`s not a challenge if you agree to do more of what you do...that would be like me accepting the challenge to eat more often at mortons or drink more fosters...


zeemax or any one of allah`s homies need to take the challenge..he`s said 2010 is when he expects Kashmir to benaga Pakiland...if he really believes it, he should agree to renounce islam and declare mohd was just an arab fart if what he believes doesn`t come true...2010 isn`t that far off..time flies faster than people think...It`s more than 5 years since capt clueless made his most idiotic comments...

Re: # 90

arjun,

.... even though i am not one of al-lah`s homies - as a matter of fact i wouldn`t be caught dead in his neighborhood - i share zeemax`s kashmir aspirations ...... however, i am a little bit more realistic and patient and am willing to wait till about 2060, by which time i should be quite dead and past the point of really caring ......... like the unification of taiwan with china, the unification of kashmir with pakistan is fait accompli and there is no need to get all uptight about it - it will happen when it will happen ..........

Burpinder....

The problem with Sadna bibi is that she made an absolute fool out of herself and is now trying to desperately save face. If she resorts to abuse against me, my compatriots and my country, she will get the same treatment again and again...

#86 by hamidm2 on October 15, 2006 6:35am PT

Yes...people convert all the time in India...hard for pakis to comprehend, isn`t it?

Is Zeemax willing to take the Kashmir-challenge...


If Indian Kashmir is part of Pakistan on 1st Jan, 2011, I`ll convert to Islam...

If it hasn`t beanegaed Pakistan, he`ll eat ham and drink a fosters beer every friday of the year...

Re: # 87

arjun mian,

i don`t know about zeemax - him being a muslim who actually believes in islam and all that - but i will take your challenge starting next friday and continue long after kashmir has banegaed pakistan, with one or two changes - can i replace fosters with bass ale and plain old ham with proscuitto ?

Summary: Mushy`s book reinforces the fact that Pakiland is a quasi-terrorist state and if given an option, it would elect a pro-islamic terrorist government...and the only thing standing between this outcome and reality is...drum roll..mushy...


Is terror Pakistan’s state brand?

By Babar Sattar

‘A RISING tide lifts all boats’, we were told recently at an International Trade Council meeting in Geneva. Building a good national brand and image facilitates economic development and thus the intense focus of countries to market themselves in a manner that is attractive to governments, businesses and intermediaries across the globe. ‘Incredible India’ is the brand being popularised by our neighbour, to establish its credentials not just as the ‘largest democracy of the world’ but as a magical place that offers extraordinary cultural and business opportunities. Through ‘Italy – Life in I Style’, the Italian government is trying to make the brand ‘Made in Italy’ synonymous to quality as well as style.

These days, individuals, firms, cities, regions, countries, and even continents all market themselves professionally, often through aggressive ”sales techniques”. Indeed, having a bad reputation or none at all is a serious handicap for a state seeking to remain competitive in the international arena. A state with a negative brand faces difficulties in attracting world’s economic and political attention. Image and reputation are thus becoming essential part of a state`s strategic equity. We talk about a state`s personality in the same way we discuss the products we consume, describing it as friendly, credible, pleasant or unreliable, hazardous or dangerous. A brand reflects a customer`s idea about a product. A state’s brand is a total sum of the outside world`s ideas about a particular country.

Globalisation and the media revolution have made each state more aware of itself, its image and reputation or its brand. What is Pakistan’s brand ? Here, General Musharraf has produced In the Line of Fire which brags about the fact that Pakistan’s president holds ‘the world’s most dangerous job’. The book brings a renewed focus on Pakistan as a hotbed of terrorist activity. One wonders why the general needed to produce a 352-page memoir focusing largely on his fight with terrorism in Pakistan and beyond at a time when seldom a minute goes by that the country is not mentioned in the context of the war on terror by the world media. Even as the Musharraf regime was gloating over its effort in foiling a major terror plot to blow up planes using liquid bombs a couple of months back, political analysts on international networks continued to take jibes at Pakistan for somehow being linked to all terror plots/plotters.

‘In the Line of Fire’ is a continuation of Musharraf regime’s long-standing branding and marketing strategy for himself and for Pakistan. The title itself underscores the status of Pakistan as part of the problem of terrorism confronting the ‘civilised world’, and Gen Musharraf as the solitary warrior combating the scourge of terror. Pakistan is widely perceived in the West as a quasi-terrorist state where a truly representative system would rein-in a Taliban-style fundamentalist government. And the general is seen as the last glimmer of hope standing between Pakistan and Talibanisation, whose fall would remove the last obstacle preventing extremism from taking charge of Pakistan.

Jon Stewart was only reflecting this widely shared US perception when he asked Gen Musharraf on his Daily Show who -- President Bush or Osama Bin Laden -- was likely to be elected to the Mayor’s Office in Karachi if those were the two candidates competing in an election. How Pakistan has come to be branded as a problem state by the US and the western world is not simply an inadvertent consequence of the events taking place since 9/11. It is partly a by-product of Gen Musharraf’s self-promotion campaign in the US that positions him as the only liberal force in Pakistan capable of halting Pakistan’s drift into obscurantism.

The role of effective strategising and posturing can never be underestimated in politics, and Gen Musharraf has undoubtedly established himself as a PR guru. Unfortunately he has marketed himself in a manner that he continues to look good so long as his country remains the ‘world’s most dangerous place’. Musharraf’s political and marketing strategy is based on an apt understanding of US interests and goals in the region and the amoral hierarchy of such interests. Winning the war on terror is America’s top priority that trumps all other goals, including strengthening and exporting democracy as a long-standing political goal or opposing the denial of civil liberties by national governments as a humanitarian goal.

The US has learnt from recent history that in today’s highly polarised world democracy is not synonymous with capitalist, liberal, pro-western governments. And Iran and Venezuela are the cases in point. The last thing US wishes Pakistan to produce is a homegrown Ahmedinejad or Chavez. Thus, so long as the US continues to believe that a genuine democracy might bring into power a populist anti-US government in Pakistan, which is likely to impede the US war on terror in Afghanistan and around the globe, Musharraf regime will continue to be seen as the only force in Pakistan capable of being a US ally during its war against terror.

But it is not the fear of emergence of a populist anti-US government alone that accounts for America’s unqualified support for the general. The US is cognisant of Pakistan army’s superiority over all other state institutions and has long maintained direct institutional links with the military even at the cost of undermining representative institutions in Pakistan. The US understands that even during democratic interludes, Pakistan’s security policy (including the nuclear policy) as well as foreign policy vis-à-vis important countries such as India, China, Iran, Afghanistan and the US, fell within the exclusive domain of the military.

The US needs Pakistan army to do its bidding in the war on terror. Giving up the longstanding policy of expediency and support for Musharraf in favour of a principled pro-democracy policy towards Pakistan offers no immediate dividends. The US is also aware of Pakistan military’s decisive influence over all aspects of national life and realises that as long as it wishes to be in business with Pakistan, it will need to work with Pakistan army and the army chief. And Gen Musharraf knows that the US would not disturb this power equation. He also knows that the moment a new army chief is sworn in, there will be another viable option for the US to do business with. Little wonder, the general views the loss of his uniform as an irreparable damage to his bargaining position with domestic politicians as well as the US.

The warm Musharraf-US relationship is likely to continue as long as the US maintains its current approach in pursuing its war on terror continues. Any attempt to reform societies by force and planting there alien brands of democracy that can produce predictable pro-US regimes in Muslim countries will not produce lasting results if the deep-rooted causes of violence and extremism are ignored.

What is also bewildering is why our mainstream political parties led by Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif do not seem to understand the fundamentals of the US-Musharraf relationship, how it aids the immediate-term interests of the US and the Musharraf regime and why it is unlikely to change despite their exhibition of unreserved loyalty to the US. No amount of lobbying or pleading will convince the Bush administration about the need for offering patronage to civilian political forces in Pakistan so long as the institutional balance within the country stays titled strongly in favour of the military. The mainstream political parties need to fight their political battles within the country and not in Washington, and if Chavez and Ahmedinejad have one worthy lesson to offer, it is that no amount of external assistance is a replacement for genuine public support.

Pakistan must start investing in the development of a national brand that reflects the genius of its people and projects the country as an engine of economic growth for the region and the world. But a marketing strategy in itself is worth nothing if there is no genuinely decent product to sell. We need to fight the forces of obscurantism and despotism within the country that have caused the world to view Pakistan as a sanctuary for terror. As a nation we are not religious extremists secretly chanting prayers for Osama bin Laden and as a polity we are not eagerly awaiting our first opportunity to vote a Taliban-style religious government into power. Unfortunately the world is unlikely to realise any of this while reading In the Line of Fire.

#80 by zeemax on October 15, 2006 0:58am PT



Hahaha ... Kashmir Banega Pakistan ... do it quickly please.


Take the Kashmir-challenge...

If Indian Kashmir is part of Pakistan on 1st Jan, 2011, I`ll convert to Islam...

If it hasn`t beanegaed Pakistan, you`ll eat ham and drink a fosters beer every friday of the year...

deal?

Re: # 83

arjun,

...... you don`t have to wait until 2011 to convert - according to the bbc you can do it now :

Low-caste Hindus adopt new faith

Thousands attended the conversion ceremonies in Nagpur
Thousands of people have been attending mass ceremonies in India at which hundreds of low-caste Hindus (Dalits) converted to Buddhism and Christianity.
The events in the central city of Nagpur are part of a protest against the injustices of India`s caste system

#81
Since other posters are free to post personal remarks about me, I will reply to such remarks as and when I please. If ``everyone`` has a problem with that, so be it.

sadna/mantolives

Will you two please shut up? Your incessant bickering and he said-she said is driving everyone up the wall.

“You want to hang him? Go ahead and hang him ... this nation will go up in flames``

(Farooq Abdullah told the CNN-IBN news channel.)

Hahaha ... Kashmir Banega Pakistan ... do it quickly please.

Sadna...

You say you are not interested in posting anything about Musharraf`s book, but you`ve been posting thread after thread about him for the past three weeks. Isn`t that ironic?

In any event, we still don`t understand why Aisha and I have to agree with each other on everything. In any event, it is clear that you didn`t even bother to read the article or your comprehension of simple English is rather lacking, which makes Aisha`s description of you in 29 all the more accurate.

The root of all evils in any debate is 1. misdirection or deliberate misinterpretation of what another person says and 2. personalizing dissent. You are not setting a very good example for the lesser maccacas in both respects.

manto and mrs manto can continue this circle-jerk of self-delusion all they want bu the facts don`t change.

The world associates India with IT and an ancient culture.
The world associated Pakistan with Islamic terrorism..

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#75 by ballukhan on October 14, 2006 6:25pm PT

For pakis, normal relations means India hands over Kashmir to them and in return, they promise to be India`s friends...

thanks....but no thanks...

hamidm2 #various
I haven`t expressed any opinion on the book or Musharraf on this thread and have no interest in doing so. I posted what the author`s husband said connecting the book and its author to myself and I told her to have a word with him. When people write stuff about me, I have the right of reply because in case you didn`t notice, the Mughal sultanate is dead.

The root of all evils in any debate is 1. misdirection or deliberate misinterpretation of what another person says and 2. personalizing dissent. You are not setting a very good example to your juniors in both respects.

LOL

nasah ji, hamidm2 is so fine a contributor that he is entitled to spicing up the conversation. Even by his catchphrase ``horrible Hindoos`` he means no harm. :)

``my biggest beef with musharraf - .....................- is his misguided effort to `normalize` relations with primates ..........``(hamidm)

what happened -- when this epiphany arrived....for the member of the same gene pool?

Re: # 70

nasah,

macacas, langurs and capuchins might belong to the same gene pool, but in the wild you will never see them peacefully swinging from the same tree and sharing berries - it is the law of nature ......... the deep-rooted animosity of the macacas towards the langurs because of their inability to accept the fact that the langurs want their own berry tree, makes peaceful coexistence impossible in the forseeable future ....... and being the direct descendents of hanuman, the macacas have more experience with monkey business, which puts the langurs at a disadvantage ...........

..... maybe if the langurs stopped acting like capuchins dancing to the tune of various organ grinders, they might have a chance ............

please do not feed the monkeys

....... my biggest beef with musharraf - other than the fact that there is everything wrong with a man in unifrom running the country - is his misguided effort to `normalize` relations with primates ..........

.......... remember when the indian cricket team accompanied by frau sadna`s male alter ego, vereesh mian, went to defile the land of the pure ?......... at that time i had said that nothing good would come out of letting in these ... these .... monkeys into the country (at that time the world had not discovered george allen) ........ monkeys are a nuisance - they are mean spirited, cunning and wicked, they crap all over the place, they eat some of their feces and hurl the remainder at passersby, they screech (specially the females) and are infested with fleas ..........

........ we created pakistan so that we could get away from the knife-in-armpit bania because we knew that we couldn`t trust him .......... then what was musharraf thinking ? ........... you throw a monkey a peanut and more than likely he will attack you, try to grab the whole bag and then gouge out your eyes ! ......... it is the nature of the beast ....... and if you don`t believe me, then just look at the picture of the man posted by bj - would you trust your niece with him ?


ylh zindabad !

Re: # 69

``is his misguided effort to `normalize` relations .``

Agreed.......................he tried to `normalize` the relationship of ``Pakistan-in-a-state-of-unending-war-with-India`` by pumping more resources into Jehadi infrastructure first with Kargil and then executing more terror attacks into Indian mainland.............. it is his perverse view of what `normal` relations with India means that gets exposed in his book...............

Re: # 75

ballukhan,

......... i agree that executing terror attacks on the indian `mainland` is counter productive and as both the us and pakistan have found out, supporting jihadists is a bad idea - the blowback effect is unpredictable ............ but it is pakistan`s moral obligation to support the kashmiris in their struggle for freedom and musharraf`s backtracking on the issue is despicable ........... the man is famous for making decisions arbitrarily and then making a u-turn when things blow up in his face ......... it will be interesting to see how he handles bb and ns when they decide to call his bluff .......

Bj, bj, bj,

You fluff up every Indian from Gandhi to Sadna and yet they disappoint you again and again. You fluff, fluff, fluff all day and to no avail.

FYI I never said I wasn`t talking to you. This is not unplugged pai... all I said I was ignoring your abuse and personal attacks on unplugged ... which is why you are on my ignore list there. It doesn`t mean that I don`t have the right to take your sorry little behind to china town... Also the name Muhammad is spelt many ways. Mahomet, Mehmet, Mahomed (this is how Jinnah actually spelt his name) and Mohammed are all the same... a rose is a rose by any name.

*Musharraf and his Clint Eastwood title*

LOL

*Though most of the world knows George Orwell for his book, Animal Farm*

Nop. He was known for all time famous ``1984``.

*Kargil was a reaction to what he revealed to be an attempt by India *

Nop. It was fixed wrestling. It was a pretext of regime change in PK. You see this is how Hegelian Dialect works.

Problem: Kargil, produces a Hero defeated by EVIL industrialist
Reaction: What`s going on. PM`s a traitor. Needs a `patriot`.
Solution: Army`s intervention and take over.

:) he and his cabal is as much a patriot as Unocol`s Karzai is an Afghan.

He was needed to facilitate the invasion of Afghanistan. He took over somewhat exactly an yr before 911. Right man for the right job at the right time in a right place. Ideal. Isn`t it?

#63

Abey Yasser kee dumm:

(I thought you were not talking to me. Such a liar!)

Much as you are dutibound to play your wife`s own ``knight``, this here is a crappy piece of “review” and you know it!

In fact the world at large knows it!

Take for example where she calls Mushy head of the state of a developing nation – you know that is not true! How can Pakistan be called a developing nation – it is fully matured and it is fully developed – to the best of its ability. In fact, if one is to go by the geographic size alone – it is not only no more maturing, it is past that phase since 1971 and entered the next phase - a SHRINKING nation!

And how can she even suggest for George Orwell would have read the Mushy memoir? Everyone knows that Orwell is dead! Dead men don’t read! They just lie dead - sometimes along with inanimate objects like mirrors!

And how can she call the Hudood laws “extra constitutional”? Isn’t Pakistan brimming full with hot-shot smartass lawyers who can jump up and challenge any “extra constitutional” laws in a jiffy? What happened – did all the Pakistani lawyers turn in