Musharraf’s Coup - Seven Years Later

Re: # 139

Zahra:

After posting on this board I had two questions that came to my mind, and wanted to ask Hamidm and Tahmad Sahib. You partly answered them, you probably read my mind. Still here is the question for these two gentlemen.

``Can a muslim discover himself or herself, and the inner logic without any strings of religious strings?``

``Is it possible to remain muslim when he or she does such examination, or runs the risk of being apostate?``

There indeed are people, who just cannot do it. This is clearly visible from the postings of many Hindus and Parsi here.

This self discovery has allowed Christians, Jewish, Buddhists and some Hindus, Sikhs to see beyond and acquire greater perspectives and knowledge. These societies have either acquired or acquiring great knowledge to the benefit and develop technologies, to build or are building nation-states / economic regions (EU, ASEAN etc.).

Your Korean friends indeed have church in their personal non-work lives. Just as I know many friends and even ex employees whom I have observed very closely. Their religion was confined to themeselves when they went to church or for any community (may even be family) functions.

For example, N. Korean nuclear issue is not about Buddhist Bomb.

Even if the west tries, Koreans will just laugh it out, and eliminate it. Whereas, a caricature cartoon of Mohammad invoked protest all over the world. That Danish guy indeed became overnight millionaire. Lesser known Salman Rushdie suddenly became a class in himself. Why?

On the other hand no Kim Il Jong will ever become millionaire. I am not trivializing anyone`s pain. I think, that better solutions are found when religions are limited to the personal space. As these are personal belief systems, and by definition emotional. These do fan great passions, and soon people fail to see rationally and logically.

This is where I see Yasser making sense that religious card once played caused a wrong solution to be implemented.

Now, who played it first and last, Jinnah or Gandhi may go in the history as a questions with more than one answers, whether these are Yasser`s answers or Sadhna`s answers. Hopefully, over a period of time, just as the British and the Americans can ignore or laugh now about ``No taxation without representation.``, people from South Asia may be able to do it 200 years from now. That is only realistic possibility for peace, everything else does not terminate, and is infinite. Fortunately, time is on the side of such thinking.

Anil

#151 by CoolAL

THIS is how Islam takes over. The majority are NOT converted by the sword. The initial converts are like seed money. THIS is the slow, gradual social pressure that forces the rest of the people to convert. After a while, people just don`t want to deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis. They just give up.

#145 by behram1 on October 15, 2006 7:45pm PT
Re: # 144 by krishna_abcd on October 15, 2006 7:38pm PT

[{[Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. ]

That IS funny. Parsee AND intellectual. }

Yes, isn`t it. ]

I`m glad you agree.

[{By the way, would your Musloo wife have married you if you had not ``converted`` to islam? }]

Did she insist that you become a cutloo? An intellectual cutloo?

:)

Re: #147 by kaalchakra

:)

Behram sahib,

I am sorry this is irrelevant to the topic. But is Mr. Pierre (Parvaiz) Omidyar a Zoroastrian?

Rgds,

(Sorry if this is a bother)

Relgion/Ethnicity

......quite a interesting discussion on parsis.......if i were to rank upwardly successful communities in pakistan, i would say two are at the top - parsis and agha khanis.......i have yet to meet a poor parsi in pakistan.......in fact, every single one i know or have heard of is phenomenally successful.........all the ones i have met are dentists and doctors and big journalists and shipping and hotelling tycoons and novelists..........even today.......

thus parsis must be financially and socially the most successful community in pakistan......contrary to popular belief, there are some in the military, also........and doing relatively well..........if pakistan eases off on the religious side, a bit, i wouldn`t doubt if one becomes a chief some time..........

agha khanis are another success story.........i didn`t run into many in pakistan, but have run into quite a few in canada...........they are one group from pakistan who can give the jewish businessmen a run for their money.........agha khanis are phenomenally successfull here in canada..........agha khan visits here quite a bit.........they are big real estate agents, businessmen etc......at a community level, they look after each other, very well.........

thus, pakistan is strange country.........at a state level there are restrictions on religious minorities..........but a social level, they do quite well..........in fact, ahmedis are probably the most educated religious group in pakistan (not counting parsis)........i wouldn`t be surprised if the literacy rate of ahmedis is significantly higher than that of sunnis and shias......

pakistan has the second largest shia population in the world, after iran..........there are only two countries in the world, which have huge shia and sunni populations, living together (three if you count india)..........iraq and pakistan.......iraq may get divided on shia/sunni lines, through a civil war.........yet, in pakistan, despite shia/sunni terrorist attacks and shia/sunni politics and religious fanaticism, i cannot recall the shia and sunni community ever fighting each other at a social level........not one single incidence of communal shia/sunni violence.........

the fact is that pakistan`s fault lines have always been ethnic.........never religious........the shia, sunni, hindu, ahmedi, parsi etc. bengalis, together, fought the shia, sunni, hindu, ahmedi, parsi etc. punjabis............the shia, sunni, ahmedi, parsi etc. muhajirs, together, fight the shia, sunni, ahmedi, hindu etc. sindhi...........and vice-versa........

so, if pakistan ever breaks (further) it will definitely be on ethnic lines (baluchi, punjabi, muhajir, pathan etc.)...........not on religious lines (shia, sunni, hindu, parsi, ahmedi etc.)

Re: # 121

Hmm, I am sorry but this is too easy...

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Historic Shiv Mandir makes way for a Pir

Historic Shiv Mandir makes way for a Pir

Butchers encroach upon Hindu compound and bully residents into leaving the place while govt remains silent

By Aroosa Masroor Khan

KARACHI: “We have had enough. We cannot put up with this discrimination and harassment anymore,” cry Hindu residents of the century-old Pawandas compound, situated in Lyari town.

The compound has a historic Shiv Mandir on its premises but this has been taken over by a self-styled Pir, whose followers claim that the Mandir was a mosque before.

They have scraped tiles of Hindu deities in order to “cleanse” the room while the Hindus have been forced to offer their prayers in a makeshift room on another side of the compound.

If that was not enough trouble, other parts of the compound have been taken over by a clan of butchers who now slaughter animals on the premises.

The butchers are intent on taking control of this compound. So far, they have forcibly evicted 24 families despite the official allotment of the compound to the Hindu families by the Sindh government under the Evacuee Property Act 1957.

The Hindus say that they are Pakistani first and Hindu later. Some of them returned to Pakistan within months of migrating to India in 1947 because they said they could not settle there. Now they question their decision as the government continues to ignore their plight.

But they say they will not give up without a fight. In reaction to a recent rape incident with one of the daughters of a senior Hindu priest on the premises of the compound, the enraged members decided to take a stance against the perpetrators. But this has had its consequences.

The butchers have long been involved in misusing the premises and disrupting the rituals and activities of the Hindu residents.

“Unconcerned with the hygienic conditions of a residential area, the butchers continue to slaughter animals within the compound, including cows, which we find particularly disturbing,” Buddhiyaram Maheshwary, a resident of the compound told The News.

Maheshwary says that after the takeover of the Shiv temple, he now performs his religious rituals in what is now the replacement to the older temple, a small room within the compound. Measuring barely 8 feet by 6 feet, the replacement temple does not have room for more than two people to worship at a time.

“It is impossible to perform pooja (prayers) in congregation in such a small space which is why we are limited to saying our daily prayers at home. We cannot celebrate our religious festivals freely either and have to resort to Mandirs situated in other parts of the city,” said another resident, Mulbai.

The followers of the self-styled Pir, Syed Hussain Mian Bukhari, claim that the temple has been a Muslim place of worship for over 50 years.

“Our Pir Sahab has been practicing religion for decades now. He is the descendant of the late Syed Abbas Mian Bukhari who was quite well known,” said one Bilquis Bano, who also lives in the compound.

Attempts have been made to erase all memories of the original Shiv Mandir. Tiles depicting Hindu deities have been scraped. But some tiles are still visible and this belies the claim of the place being a Muslim place of worship.

When confronted with this fact, Syed Hussain himself confessed to this correspondent that the large room was indeed a temple initially that has been illegally taken over by the Muslims after claiming they had taken permission from the Evacuee Board. “We are ready to vacate the area, if the government guarantees our habitation elsewhere,” he added helpfully.

Revealing the history of the place under dispute, Buddhiyaram told The News that before partition the compound consisted of several small houses that were used as Ashrams by different visitors.

Following independence, around 100 Hindu families that resided in the compound migrated to India. Most of them, however, returned shortly after because they were unable to settle there.

“My family was one of the 50 families who returned,” said Buddhiyaram adding, “even today I do not want to leave this country for I am a Pakistani first and a Hindu later. All we are asking for is our due right to practice our religion and faith that even the constitution guarantees.”

Bobby Maheswary, son of Buddhiyaram Maheswary, is a local Union Council member elected on a minority seat. He says that apart from the encroachment, the slaughtering of animals on the premises is a deplorable act.

“It is not just the foul smell of blood. The internal organs of the animals lie exposed everywhere and it is really disgusting and insulting for us Hindus to walk past them,” says Mulbai.

Lawyer Amarnath Motumal, who is also the president of Hindu Panchayat Karachi Division and a council member of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, said that cows are tied and slaughtered in the open — an act that disturbs the entire adjacent neighbourhood.

But how can a slaughterhouse be run within a residential premises, ask the original residents. “The slaughterhouse also has some rules to follow and maintain a hygienic atmosphere. They are not only insulting the minority settlements but are also violating the rules of the government,” complained one elderly woman.

Bobby Maheswary also said that a team of vets was recently called for inspection so that the place could be formalized as a slaughterhouse. These vets refused to give their approval.

Seventy-year-old Dawood, who runs a decoration business in the locality, claims that he is trying to settle the dispute.

He says he has been witness to the situation for the past 32 years and blames the authorities for encouraging encroachment in the compound.

The Baghdadi police themselves help the Muslim land grabbers by forcing the Hindu residents to sign on the residential document in exchange for a very little amount, which subsequently gives them the right to use the land,” he discloses.

Using his position as a council member, Bobby said he has made several complaints to higher authorities, including the local area police, Town Nazim and Chief Minister of Sindh, about the unauthorized construction of houses and forced eviction of his community members.

He has also filed a complaint with the Ministry of Health but no action has been taken to date. “Each official blames the other and shifts responsibility. I don’t know where to go. I feel really helpless,” said the frustrated young man.

Bobby also suffered personal trauma recently for his attempts to get justice. Both he and his wife were recently attacked and abused verbally by some members of the butcher clan because he filed a formal complaint.

“My wife who is pregnant was totally shaken. I cannot afford to risk her or my child’s life at the moment so to avoid further complications I will not pursue the case until my wife delivers,” says Bobby now.

So much is the harassment in this small compound that some mothers refrain from sending their children outside to play as they are harassed by Muslim children.

“They use swear words and for a single mistake a Hindu makes, they abuse our entire cast. That is quite offending.”

While most were forcefully asked to vacate the compound, some families willingly left to avoid further harassment. This is what the butcher clan wants.

Karachi’s Hindu community is approximately 1.5 million and most who reside here belong to the scheduled castes. “This community is very scared of fighting for their rights and different quarters have been taking advantage of their vulnerability,” said lawyer Motumal.

The question now remains as to who will win this battle for control of the compound. Many ask whether the government will look the other way as a revered Hindu place of worship is desecrated and their members keep being provoked by a clan of butchers.

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

re: ZahraJ # 139

That is a very very good post. You have said it better than most of us ever could have. Masterly.

Most Hindus simply cannot grasp the meaning of what you wrote. Naturally they are woefully underprepared to deal with the implications of their ignorance. (Not including Anil ji here, who is a guru of gurus).

Ignorant Hindus even today keep wondering how anyone could see Gandhi or Nehru as just `leaders of Hindus` or how any nation could structure trade on largely religious grounds. This absence of understanding leads to great mutual disappointments, and destroys any possibility of creating rational inter-religious interactions.

---

I wish, if there was one thing Hindus could understand, it would be just what you wrote....that would solve so many problems...lead to much greater peace than we have ever had.

Re: # 136

masadi,

.......... as long as you continue to live in the west and accept government cheese, you will never have any credibility ......... unless you are planning to pull off a prank like sheikh abul rehman or mohammed ata it is hard to explain why you continue to live in a society that you obviously loath .......

.......... compared to people like dr hoodbhoy, who chose to forgo a lucrative career in the us, you are a pathetic weasel whose words ring hollow ..........

Re: # 144 by krishna_abcd on October 15, 2006 7:38pm PT

{[Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. ]

That IS funny. Parsee AND intellectual. }

Yes, isn`t it. But your stupidity is funnier, when you write

{By the way, would your Musloo wife have married you if you had not ``converted`` to islam? }

#143 by behram1

[Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. ]

That IS funny. Parsee AND intellectual.

By the way, would your Musloo wife have married you if you had not ``converted`` to islam?

Re: # 130 by friend on October 15, 2006 1:09pm PT

Dear Friend:

{Behram baba-
Stay calm and answer one question - can you or your progeny ever become president, prime minister or army chief in Pakistan? Assume that you have all the qualifications in the world. Why? Our most famous army chief, Field Marshal Manekshaw, was a parsi.}

In today`s Pakistan, the answer would definitely be NO. However, when Pakistan was created and right up to the mid 1950`s, Karachi`s mayor was Nusserwanjee Mehta, and Pakistan`s first constitution was written by Justice Cornelius.

As for serving in the military is concerned Parsees have much better opportunity commercially, and we seldom find them in any bureaucracy. Most Parsees are still better equipped for Banks and secretarial jobs. Rarely did I hear Parsees serving in the military. Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. They can not be fooled in serving a military.

I hope I have answered your question.

Being a hindoo from India, I can understand your hatred towards the largest religious minority amongst you. Muslims are over 150 million amongst you and India incessantly brags about how democratic their country is, blah, blah, blah, etc.

Is that all you guys can do? Brag about a onesy twosy minority here and there. Are you not ashamed of yourself? and the hateful society that you have created. Squatting on railroad tracks can gain western sympathy for so long, but it is only a matter of time when hindoo hate mongers would be identified amongst most enlightened westerners. And you will not be able to hide behind ``O! it is Pakistan that is making us do what we do?``

Now, shoo away, back to your squatting position on those railroad tracks.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 136 by masadi on October 15, 2006 3:01pm PT

Shaitaan-e-Buzorg Khajoor injected rat brained vibrating mullah-o-crat masadi:

Ever since you have joined this chowk all we were told is that west is bad, and west is naked, and west is blah, blah, blah. Like a rickety rack, Karachi rickshaw, you have been trying to convince yourself that you are some sort of a genius. No one has bought into your elite theory, and then you hide behind your dogma. You have a dark and evil soul, and you know that. You want to be enlightened and intellectual at the same time. You double speak constantly, and you have no place to hide. Even your wahabi mentors would be ashamed of you, and your support. Your values stink, and you sound ``oink oink``.

{The ``gullible`` Pakistanis as you call them, can make up their own minds, they can check the facts, think about them and then evaluate if my argument makes sense or not.}

Ever since the 1970`s when the wahabbi money of KSA showed up, Pakistanis have been led astray by the green clad mullah-o-crats to the lala land. One thing after the other showed how gullible Pakistanis are. Most of them were made busy in earning a living and running after catching the buses to no where. They have rickety rack rickshaws and the MQM taught the mohajirs to pee on the streets of Karachi. This is what most Pakistanis started seeing: that mullah-do piyazas of Pakistan were celebrating shab-e-barat and eating halwa and poor folks were chasing fume exhausting buses to reach somewhere.

And in the midst of all this the mafiaso builders were making tons of money at the expense of Karachi`s environment, and the Arabs were hell bent on robbing and stealing Pakistan`s infrastructure. And then, the General writes his book and makes mucho dollars.

And here you blame the west. Now where do you find your rat infested brains? huh!

{They should guard against logical fallacies in the arguments of dimwits like you whose only attachment to the West is the bikini clad blonde they happened to see which had a `case closed` effect on them- people who can think and have transitioned to the level of `human being` from `animal`, unlike you and hamid lcan ook beyond your BS, you both are still stuck with the cave man mentality, the lowest common denominator humans have with animals.}

You are bigot and you know that. You would love to eat that fish smelling blonde if you get it. But, unfortunately for you, with your bakra face, you are just too ugly. You are a hideous person, and you are jealous to the core of your being. By your posts on this chowk you have defiled the pristine religion of those peace loving muslims that I have known. You should be ashamed of your behavior. As far as I know, muslims are not what you make them out to be.

Respectfully submitted,