Musharraf’s Coup - Seven Years Later

Re: # 144 by krishna_abcd on October 15, 2006 7:38pm PT

{[Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. ]

That IS funny. Parsee AND intellectual. }

Yes, isn`t it. But your stupidity is funnier, when you write

{By the way, would your Musloo wife have married you if you had not ``converted`` to islam? }

Re: # 136

masadi,

.......... as long as you continue to live in the west and accept government cheese, you will never have any credibility ......... unless you are planning to pull off a prank like sheikh abul rehman or mohammed ata it is hard to explain why you continue to live in a society that you obviously loath .......

.......... compared to people like dr hoodbhoy, who chose to forgo a lucrative career in the us, you are a pathetic weasel whose words ring hollow ..........

re: ZahraJ # 139

That is a very very good post. You have said it better than most of us ever could have. Masterly.

Most Hindus simply cannot grasp the meaning of what you wrote. Naturally they are woefully underprepared to deal with the implications of their ignorance. (Not including Anil ji here, who is a guru of gurus).

Ignorant Hindus even today keep wondering how anyone could see Gandhi or Nehru as just `leaders of Hindus` or how any nation could structure trade on largely religious grounds. This absence of understanding leads to great mutual disappointments, and destroys any possibility of creating rational inter-religious interactions.

---

I wish, if there was one thing Hindus could understand, it would be just what you wrote....that would solve so many problems...lead to much greater peace than we have ever had.

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread,



Doodh ka doodh, Paani ka Paani Karne Waale chund Sawaal (short ansswer type):


Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com and asadi.org???

Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ?

Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ?

Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ???





And also try to recollect your answers to the above.

Do you remember Masadi ???? or have you chosen to forget

Re: # 121

Hmm, I am sorry but this is too easy...

---

Historic Shiv Mandir makes way for a Pir

Historic Shiv Mandir makes way for a Pir

Butchers encroach upon Hindu compound and bully residents into leaving the place while govt remains silent

By Aroosa Masroor Khan

KARACHI: “We have had enough. We cannot put up with this discrimination and harassment anymore,” cry Hindu residents of the century-old Pawandas compound, situated in Lyari town.

The compound has a historic Shiv Mandir on its premises but this has been taken over by a self-styled Pir, whose followers claim that the Mandir was a mosque before.

They have scraped tiles of Hindu deities in order to “cleanse” the room while the Hindus have been forced to offer their prayers in a makeshift room on another side of the compound.

If that was not enough trouble, other parts of the compound have been taken over by a clan of butchers who now slaughter animals on the premises.

The butchers are intent on taking control of this compound. So far, they have forcibly evicted 24 families despite the official allotment of the compound to the Hindu families by the Sindh government under the Evacuee Property Act 1957.

The Hindus say that they are Pakistani first and Hindu later. Some of them returned to Pakistan within months of migrating to India in 1947 because they said they could not settle there. Now they question their decision as the government continues to ignore their plight.

But they say they will not give up without a fight. In reaction to a recent rape incident with one of the daughters of a senior Hindu priest on the premises of the compound, the enraged members decided to take a stance against the perpetrators. But this has had its consequences.

The butchers have long been involved in misusing the premises and disrupting the rituals and activities of the Hindu residents.

“Unconcerned with the hygienic conditions of a residential area, the butchers continue to slaughter animals within the compound, including cows, which we find particularly disturbing,” Buddhiyaram Maheshwary, a resident of the compound told The News.

Maheshwary says that after the takeover of the Shiv temple, he now performs his religious rituals in what is now the replacement to the older temple, a small room within the compound. Measuring barely 8 feet by 6 feet, the replacement temple does not have room for more than two people to worship at a time.

“It is impossible to perform pooja (prayers) in congregation in such a small space which is why we are limited to saying our daily prayers at home. We cannot celebrate our religious festivals freely either and have to resort to Mandirs situated in other parts of the city,” said another resident, Mulbai.

The followers of the self-styled Pir, Syed Hussain Mian Bukhari, claim that the temple has been a Muslim place of worship for over 50 years.

“Our Pir Sahab has been practicing religion for decades now. He is the descendant of the late Syed Abbas Mian Bukhari who was quite well known,” said one Bilquis Bano, who also lives in the compound.

Attempts have been made to erase all memories of the original Shiv Mandir. Tiles depicting Hindu deities have been scraped. But some tiles are still visible and this belies the claim of the place being a Muslim place of worship.

When confronted with this fact, Syed Hussain himself confessed to this correspondent that the large room was indeed a temple initially that has been illegally taken over by the Muslims after claiming they had taken permission from the Evacuee Board. “We are ready to vacate the area, if the government guarantees our habitation elsewhere,” he added helpfully.

Revealing the history of the place under dispute, Buddhiyaram told The News that before partition the compound consisted of several small houses that were used as Ashrams by different visitors.

Following independence, around 100 Hindu families that resided in the compound migrated to India. Most of them, however, returned shortly after because they were unable to settle there.

“My family was one of the 50 families who returned,” said Buddhiyaram adding, “even today I do not want to leave this country for I am a Pakistani first and a Hindu later. All we are asking for is our due right to practice our religion and faith that even the constitution guarantees.”

Bobby Maheswary, son of Buddhiyaram Maheswary, is a local Union Council member elected on a minority seat. He says that apart from the encroachment, the slaughtering of animals on the premises is a deplorable act.

“It is not just the foul smell of blood. The internal organs of the animals lie exposed everywhere and it is really disgusting and insulting for us Hindus to walk past them,” says Mulbai.

Lawyer Amarnath Motumal, who is also the president of Hindu Panchayat Karachi Division and a council member of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, said that cows are tied and slaughtered in the open — an act that disturbs the entire adjacent neighbourhood.

But how can a slaughterhouse be run within a residential premises, ask the original residents. “The slaughterhouse also has some rules to follow and maintain a hygienic atmosphere. They are not only insulting the minority settlements but are also violating the rules of the government,” complained one elderly woman.

Bobby Maheswary also said that a team of vets was recently called for inspection so that the place could be formalized as a slaughterhouse. These vets refused to give their approval.

Seventy-year-old Dawood, who runs a decoration business in the locality, claims that he is trying to settle the dispute.

He says he has been witness to the situation for the past 32 years and blames the authorities for encouraging encroachment in the compound.

The Baghdadi police themselves help the Muslim land grabbers by forcing the Hindu residents to sign on the residential document in exchange for a very little amount, which subsequently gives them the right to use the land,” he discloses.

Using his position as a council member, Bobby said he has made several complaints to higher authorities, including the local area police, Town Nazim and Chief Minister of Sindh, about the unauthorized construction of houses and forced eviction of his community members.

He has also filed a complaint with the Ministry of Health but no action has been taken to date. “Each official blames the other and shifts responsibility. I don’t know where to go. I feel really helpless,” said the frustrated young man.

Bobby also suffered personal trauma recently for his attempts to get justice. Both he and his wife were recently attacked and abused verbally by some members of the butcher clan because he filed a formal complaint.

“My wife who is pregnant was totally shaken. I cannot afford to risk her or my child’s life at the moment so to avoid further complications I will not pursue the case until my wife delivers,” says Bobby now.

So much is the harassment in this small compound that some mothers refrain from sending their children outside to play as they are harassed by Muslim children.

“They use swear words and for a single mistake a Hindu makes, they abuse our entire cast. That is quite offending.”

While most were forcefully asked to vacate the compound, some families willingly left to avoid further harassment. This is what the butcher clan wants.

Karachi’s Hindu community is approximately 1.5 million and most who reside here belong to the scheduled castes. “This community is very scared of fighting for their rights and different quarters have been taking advantage of their vulnerability,” said lawyer Motumal.

The question now remains as to who will win this battle for control of the compound. Many ask whether the government will look the other way as a revered Hindu place of worship is desecrated and their members keep being provoked by a clan of butchers.

Relgion/Ethnicity

......quite a interesting discussion on parsis.......if i were to rank upwardly successful communities in pakistan, i would say two are at the top - parsis and agha khanis.......i have yet to meet a poor parsi in pakistan.......in fact, every single one i know or have heard of is phenomenally successful.........all the ones i have met are dentists and doctors and big journalists and shipping and hotelling tycoons and novelists..........even today.......

thus parsis must be financially and socially the most successful community in pakistan......contrary to popular belief, there are some in the military, also........and doing relatively well..........if pakistan eases off on the religious side, a bit, i wouldn`t doubt if one becomes a chief some time..........

agha khanis are another success story.........i didn`t run into many in pakistan, but have run into quite a few in canada...........they are one group from pakistan who can give the jewish businessmen a run for their money.........agha khanis are phenomenally successfull here in canada..........agha khan visits here quite a bit.........they are big real estate agents, businessmen etc......at a community level, they look after each other, very well.........

thus, pakistan is strange country.........at a state level there are restrictions on religious minorities..........but a social level, they do quite well..........in fact, ahmedis are probably the most educated religious group in pakistan (not counting parsis)........i wouldn`t be surprised if the literacy rate of ahmedis is significantly higher than that of sunnis and shias......

pakistan has the second largest shia population in the world, after iran..........there are only two countries in the world, which have huge shia and sunni populations, living together (three if you count india)..........iraq and pakistan.......iraq may get divided on shia/sunni lines, through a civil war.........yet, in pakistan, despite shia/sunni terrorist attacks and shia/sunni politics and religious fanaticism, i cannot recall the shia and sunni community ever fighting each other at a social level........not one single incidence of communal shia/sunni violence.........

the fact is that pakistan`s fault lines have always been ethnic.........never religious........the shia, sunni, hindu, ahmedi, parsi etc. bengalis, together, fought the shia, sunni, hindu, ahmedi, parsi etc. punjabis............the shia, sunni, ahmedi, parsi etc. muhajirs, together, fight the shia, sunni, ahmedi, hindu etc. sindhi...........and vice-versa........

so, if pakistan ever breaks (further) it will definitely be on ethnic lines (baluchi, punjabi, muhajir, pathan etc.)...........not on religious lines (shia, sunni, hindu, parsi, ahmedi etc.)

Behram sahib,

I am sorry this is irrelevant to the topic. But is Mr. Pierre (Parvaiz) Omidyar a Zoroastrian?

Rgds,

(Sorry if this is a bother)

Re: #147 by kaalchakra

:)

#145 by behram1 on October 15, 2006 7:45pm PT
Re: # 144 by krishna_abcd on October 15, 2006 7:38pm PT

[{[Parsees in Pakistan mostly reside in Karachi, and are highly intellectual types. ]

That IS funny. Parsee AND intellectual. }

Yes, isn`t it. ]

I`m glad you agree.

[{By the way, would your Musloo wife have married you if you had not ``converted`` to islam? }]

Did she insist that you become a cutloo? An intellectual cutloo?

:)

#151 by CoolAL

THIS is how Islam takes over. The majority are NOT converted by the sword. The initial converts are like seed money. THIS is the slow, gradual social pressure that forces the rest of the people to convert. After a while, people just don`t want to deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis. They just give up.

Re: # 139

Zahra:

After posting on this board I had two questions that came to my mind, and wanted to ask Hamidm and Tahmad Sahib. You partly answered them, you probably read my mind. Still here is the question for these two gentlemen.

``Can a muslim discover himself or herself, and the inner logic without any strings of religious strings?``

``Is it possible to remain muslim when he or she does such examination, or runs the risk of being apostate?``

There indeed are people, who just cannot do it. This is clearly visible from the postings of many Hindus and Parsi here.

This self discovery has allowed Christians, Jewish, Buddhists and some Hindus, Sikhs to see beyond and acquire greater perspectives and knowledge. These societies have either acquired or acquiring great knowledge to the benefit and develop technologies, to build or are building nation-states / economic regions (EU, ASEAN etc.).

Your Korean friends indeed have church in their personal non-work lives. Just as I know many friends and even ex employees whom I have observed very closely. Their religion was confined to themeselves when they went to church or for any community (may even be family) functions.

For example, N. Korean nuclear issue is not about Buddhist Bomb.

Even if the west tries, Koreans will just laugh it out, and eliminate it. Whereas, a caricature cartoon of Mohammad invoked protest all over the world. That Danish guy indeed became overnight millionaire. Lesser known Salman Rushdie suddenly became a class in himself. Why?

On the other hand no Kim Il Jong will ever become millionaire. I am not trivializing anyone`s pain. I think, that better solutions are found when religions are limited to the personal space. As these are personal belief systems, and by definition emotional. These do fan great passions, and soon people fail to see rationally and logically.

This is where I see Yasser making sense that religious card once played caused a wrong solution to be implemented.

Now, who played it first and last, Jinnah or Gandhi may go in the history as a questions with more than one answers, whether these are Yasser`s answers or Sadhna`s answers. Hopefully, over a period of time, just as the British and the Americans can ignore or laugh now about ``No taxation without representation.``, people from South Asia may be able to do it 200 years from now. That is only realistic possibility for peace, everything else does not terminate, and is infinite. Fortunately, time is on the side of such thinking.

Anil

bulleya writes <<< thus parsis must be financially and socially the most successful community in pakistan.... >>>

Compare their state with the state of African Americans in the US or other ``different`` minorities here and you will see that Behram`s crocodile tears are based on BS.

okhla writes <<< Masadi,

Recollect the following questions posed to you on another thread, >>>

And they were adequately answered and you were quite stumped, now in your dishonest fashion, you repaste them as if I have time to waste with you. People who are interested can read the answers in the other post:

Copy pasted

<<< These for the benefit of those okhla99 is desperately trying to mislead. His intellect is the size of a rat`s fart and so I`m not interested in proving anything to him. But what I will not allow is for detractors like him to cloud the issues.

He writes <<< Question 1. What would you recommend to young Pakistanis & University Students : Publications from McGraw Hill, Springer Verlag, Prentice Hall etc or publications from lulu.com??? >>>

The publisher has nothing to do with literary merits. If Pakistani students are going to bastardize their intellect and sacrifice their point of view for sales, as these mainstream publishers have as their criteria, they should avoid them like the plague. Regardless of where they publish and how much they sell, gathering their ideas and coherently preserving them is part of Intellectual Craftsmanship, a unique contribution to the world and humanity, which they should develop. If selling and sales were the criteria for publication, most intellectual works would be ignored as they are by these corporate publishers, and the world would lose out.

<<< Question 2. You wish people to believe that Medical Science evolved in the hospitals of Cairo & Damishq where (Soap, Phenyle, antiseptics and antibiotics and CAT scan & MRI technoology) were discovered and that western civilisation is living in filth and sewage. Why Masadi, why ? >>>>

Knowledge advances in incremental successive steps, you cannot ignore the history of the various sciences, a history in which the Islamic people played an indispensible part, when you talk about modern advances. In the Middle Ages Europe had an acute sewage problem that led to many diseases, no such problems existed in the Islamic world at the time. Read your history books

<<< Question 3. Why do you wish Pakistan to not co-operate in the war on terror and continue support to Jehadis and terorists? Why do you believe that any such cooperation would tantamount to immediate and complete ``capitulation`` before America or that the status of the ``sovereign state`` of Pakistan would be compromised ? >>>

Pakistan was messed up before when it fought America`s cold war, similary it now faces a lot more serious problems than any terrorism which by the way was a by-product of that war and fluorishes in the conditions that exist in a condition where the institutional structure, both political and economic is in shambles. The `capitulation` was the explicit capitualition by Musharraf, something that goes totally against what it means to be a sovereign nation. The fight against `terrorism` would be a fight against US imperialistic state terrorism, that causes a lot more harm and destruction around the globe. The rag tags described as terrorists are merely leeching off that higher terrorism.

<<< Question 4. You wish that Musharraf should step down immediately. You secretly wish that you be anointed his successor immediately. Are you for real ??? >>>

The military and dictators have no place running the political affairs of a country, the do not represent the people, they weaken any roots of a political establishment taking root, and they have traditionally done the bidding of America to the detriment of the country. Since Pakistan`s creation its military has messed it up gearing it to do the bidding of an external. Those who care about the real needs of the people of a nation need to be its leaders not lapdogs of the colonials. It has nothing to do with me being anointed as his successor, I am not a dictator and tyrant to be a bastard`s successor.

p.s. That was my last word on your oft repeated, deliberately manipulated questions. I am not interested in going back and forth with idiots whose only argument against all the hard work I have done is ``lulu.com``. So take a hike.

>>>>>>

Hamid writes <<< .......... as long as you continue to live in the west and accept government cheese, you will never have any credibility ......... >>>

A prime characteristic of the ``bhand (caninus) mentality`` is that instead of dealing with arguments presented, the person will convert it into an Ad hominem attack on the person, as if geographic location has anything to do with analysis of a social system. Hamid has defaulted to this pathetic tactic dozens of times and has been adequately answered. My work does not deal with `my life` but with the lives of millions that are oppressed in this society, leaving this country, which I will shortly, will not make my arguments any more or any less valid, just like Noam Chomsky`s arguments are not valid or invalid because he chooses to live here.

Behram writes, <<< Shaitaan-e-Buzorg Khajoor injected rat brained vibrating mullah-o-crat masadi:

Ever since you have joined this chowk all we were told is that west is bad, and west is naked, and west is blah, blah, blah. Like a rickety rack, Karachi rickshaw, you have been trying to convince yourself that you are some sort of a genius >>>

Genius has nothing to do with it, I am not talking about some secret knowledge, what I write is quite obvious, taken from the mainstream in most cases, logically connected for those who can think worth a dime. You on the other hand, have not only not made the transition from a dog to a human being, your only response is insults and attacks and labels of Mullah- which even the Hindus on here recognize that I am not, you cannot deal with even one argument presented, infact you are so pathetic that even your insults sound infantile. That should seal the deal for the people on here, whom they should pay attention to. Like echo mian said to me in one of his posts, ``keep them on a long leash but don`t let them loose``, I ignore you because you are a dimwit with absolutely no argument and no respect for truth and deceny, but remember that I wont let dogs like you loose, whenever you raise your ugly head of bigotry to mislead the people, I will put you in your place.

Re: # 145

Behram dear boy! Be very care ful what you say and write even in this gossip NG. for eyes of Pak. government are watching you! Don`t be too bold!

It is in a way very sad that most Parsees in Pakistan have to be very careful not to alienate Muslims of or enlightened moderation of Pak Govt. They have to choose their words very carefully or be more patriotic than Pakistanis themselves! or else will suffer the same fate as that of Pakistani Christians. Everybody is reminded of their proper place in the land!

The DAWN columnist Ardeshir Cowasji is a typical example. Not a single week goes by unless the ususal quota of praise be given to the `kindness, greatness , generosity of Islam in Pakistan` is written in his columns. BTW it is the same thing in Iran too!

Last time after the terrorists opened gun fire on Indian Parliament buildings, Ardeshir Cowasji even wrote that the whole operation was planned by Indian security services. That is Patriotism, I must say!

Be very careful Behram for others` sake.

Kamath

Re: #159 by kamath on October 16, 2006 5:08am PT

Dear Kamath Sahib:

I am not sure why you are asking me to be careful? Why would the watchful eyes of Pakistan government be on a naacheez like me? What are you implying in your subtlety? I am a simple person with impeccable character, and the Government of Pakistan is not that stupid to attack me, right in the building where G.W. Bush and Alberto Gonzales have business residence.

Anyway thanks for the concern, and I would take that under advisement.

But, now let me tackle that nuisance shaitaan-e-buzorg on this chowk site:

{Compare their state with the state of African Americans in the US or other ``different`` minorities here and you will see that Behram`s crocodile tears are based on BS.}

You stupid idiot, look at the whole of Islamic world and you can figure it out how minorities are treated. The only reason they are not slogging away in Islamic jails, is because they are not dependent economically on the majorities. And yes, thanks to the British raj, Parsee boys have done exceptionally well for the community.

Do you have any problem with that?

{.. I am not talking about some secret knowledge, what I write is quite obvious, taken from the mainstream in most cases, logically connected for those who can think worth a dime.}

O! yeah! Taken from the far left wing think tank is not fair at all. That is in itself bigotry of the worst kind. Promoting your brand of religious zealotry and then wondering why most pious muslims on this site is against your evil existence. Your nonsense would put even Jabreel to shame. Do you get it?

{You on the other hand, have not only not made the transition from a dog to a human being, your only response is insults and attacks and labels of Mullah-}

OK, who cuts and paste his religious books on the chowk? You do. If you are not a mullah-o-crat then why bring your holy books into these discussions? Then, you worry why people call you nuts.

{which even the Hindus on here recognize that I am not,} Actually, you don`t even recognize that you are a stucked bi-polar case with your thoughts just stuck on the dogma given to you some 1400 years ago. And you have not even transitioned to enlightenment yet. You vaccillate from wherever you want to go in circles like a dirty dog chasing his tail.

{ you cannot deal with even one argument presented, infact you are so pathetic that even your insults sound infantile. That should seal the deal for the people on here, whom they should pay attention to. }

People on this chowk admire my style, and I know that. Just look at those who have interacted here. No more anti-Islam bashing is going on. And you who have constantly brought your pristine religion into these discussion.

Are you not ashamed of yourself?

Respectfully submitted,