Reclaiming the Middle Ground

#51 by teshah

.. Mard-e-Momin ... Bhgwat Gita.... islamize the idea of superman ... Gita ... Mard-e-Momin. Masih-turned-Musalli, Yusaf Yuhanna ... Ummul-Momina (?) ... Mukhtaran Mai, the Rape-Queen.......

I can`t believe this. At best it can be a drunken post, but you have revealed your true colours nevertheless. Acohol tends to do that.

Get lost.

#31 by Tehsinabbasi
I need to know that God is happy with me in my ordinary life, of work and play, fulfilling obligations and juggling everything as best as I can.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reminds me of a story I heard as a child:

The story involves Narada (the celestial or divine musician) and Vishnu (one of the Supreme Trinity of Hinduism).

Once upon a time, Narada was complaining to Vishnu ``How come you love those humans more than you love me? Those humans spend all their time eating and sleeping and working, while I spend all my time in prayer to You and singing religious songs about You!``

Vishnu smiled and said ``Narada, I will explain it to you. But first, here is an oil lamp. I want you to carry it around the world. Make sure the lamp does not go out.``

So Narada picked up the lamp and began to walk. As he walked, suddenly a high wind came from nowhere and it took all of Narada`s efforts to make sure the lamp didn`t go out. Finally, after a long time, the wind still blowing, he finished walking around the world and came back to where Vishnu was.

``Here is the lamp,`` he said, proudly, ``And it hasn`t gone out.``

``Very good,`` said Vishnu, ``By the way, when you were walking around the world, how many times did you think of Me?``

``I didn`t think about you at all,`` said Narada, ``It took all my concentration and strength to make sure the lamp didn`t go out.``

``That is why I love humans more,`` said Vishnu, ``You see, their entire life is like a storm. But still they find time to think about Me.``

Re: # 50

``Was it perhaps because of his support for Mustefa Kemal Pasha and abolishment of the Caliphate?``

I don`t think so as Mustefa Kemal was fighting against the British and Iqbal was not against Khilafat.

As for the Mard-e-Momin, he perhaps got the idea from Bhgwat Gita. Being a Barahman by caste whose family had converted to Islam only a short time ago it is not surprising for him to islamize the idea of superman or cult of hero worship as enshrined in Gita as his Mard-e-Momin. Today our Mard-e-Momin is a Masih-turned-Musalli, a cricketer, Yusaf Yuhanna and Ummul-Momina (?) is Mukhtaran Mai, the Rape-Queen. What a pity!

#49 by teshah

In fact, I am even more `surprised` than I was before as now you say ``all his writings hinted that he was against British Imperialism``, when in your #47 you had said ``both, Sir Syed Khan and Sir Iqbal, were pro-British and were duly knighted by them.``

In any event, I too have no idea why he was knighted by the British. Was it perhaps because of his support for Mustefa Kemal Pasha and abolishment of the Caliphate?

But I think his main and central thesis, and indeed which places him amongst such greats as Goethe and Nietzsche was the development of the Mard-e-Momin, and not any anti-west/anti-imperialism rhetoric which he wrote aplenty.

Cheers.

Re: # 48

zeemax

I can understand your `surprise` dear zeemax as you saw Iqbal only as an icon. I like his poetry and above all his lectures titled `Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam`. I was really surprised why he was knighted by the British as all his writings hinted that he was against British Imperialism but I was shocked once when I saw a booklet containing his `Qassaaid` (eulogies) in praise of Queen Vitoria. Don`t be surprised again as Iqbal himself has said:

``Khudawand yih tere saadah dil bande kidhar jaaein
Kih darveshi bhi ayyaari he sultaani bhi ayyaari``

and again

``Mashriq se ho bezaar nah maghrib se hazar kar
Fitrat ka ishara he kih har shab ko sahar kar``.

#47 by teshah

Iqbal was pro-british? That`s news.

Have you ever come across his poetry? I mean other than `Tehnee pey kisi shajar ki tanha ... `` which I think is in the primary class syllabus.

Re: # 45

Tehsin

How do you know about the faith of the pre-Islamic Arabs about Allah, the one god both of Islam and Arabs as all information about them has come to us through Islamic sources, a party in conflict? In fact, even the Islamic sources say that they believed too much in Allah as they believed in Him to have saved their Kaaba along with their idols placed therein from onslaught of Ibrah as related in Quranic Sura `The Elephant (105)`. For your information, the name `Abdullah` (The slave of God) was as popular among the pre-Islamic Arabs as it is today.

#46 by zeemax
``If you lump Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Iqbal in the same bracket, then what can I say when they were exactly at the opposite poles.``

How can you say that as both, Sir Syed Khan and Sir Iqbal, were pro-British and were duly knighted by them. About Iqbal , Zafar Ali Khan had said while addressing a public meeting held to celebrate the liberation of Samarna by Turks:

Turkon ne shujaat se Samarna ko kia sar
Aur Angrez ki dehleez pih `Sar` (Sir) ho gae Iqbal

( Incidentally both these events had somewhat coincided)

You say:

``As for your contention that Sufis may have ignored any part of the book, never even hint at it to a real Sufi, otherwise he`ll bury you alive and then make a mazaar on top of it``.

No, Sufies are not extremist murderes. Theirs is the question of emphasis. They do not give too much importance to ritualism and don`t ignore the most important verse (in their view) of the Quran which forbids even going near Salat` and another one, verse 4 of Sura Ma`un (107), which says ``Ah, Woe unto worshippers`` (Barbaadi he Musallion ke lie).

#45 by Tehsinabbasi

Wouldn’t you agree that Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and Illama Iqbal also did the same and provided much needed guidance and help to the umma in their time.

I think that settles it then. If you lump Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Iqbal in the same bracket, then what can I say when they were exactly at the opposite poles. Sir Syed wanted to teach Muslims English, while Iqbal wanted them to learn Farsi and Arabic instead. Sir Syed wanted them to put the book on a shelf, while Iqbal lamented they were doing exactly that and wanted them to understand it better and to to go back to it word by word. Sir Syed wanted Muslims to accept Western dominance and influence, while Iqbal vehemently rejected the same and advised against it.

As for Sufis, that has something to do with `Tauheed` that you understand to mean as `Belief in a single God` which is the usual simplistic understanding. Actually it doesn`t mean that at all. What `Tauheed` means is `Oneness with God`. Sufis take one route to it, while the Jihadis take another.

As for your contention that Sufis may have ignored any part of the book, never even hint at it to a real Sufi, otherwise he`ll bury you alive and then make a mazaar on top of it :)

#38 by zeemax:

Please open the Quran, I would say take any page and you will find the subject to be the same. It is mostly a reiteration of tauhid. In other words it is being repeated thousands of times how important it is to believe in a single God. After 1400 years, would’nt you say we have gotten the point, there aren’t any polytheists left. Some anal variety of ours continue to lump Christians and Hindus in their ranks, but ask any serious Hindu or Christian they would all attest to the belief in a single God. In today’s world the only debate that is left is whether there is a God or no God. So if we don’t talk about this portion of the Quran which happens to be most of it, are we expunging it – no it is irrelevant for our time.

1400 years ago there was a need to forge a muslim identity and also to mold the umma into a protective force. So we have a great portion of the Quran (Tauba and Baqra) devoted to creating this martial force. God seems like a drill sergeant creating order through communal prayers, with a command structure and rules for everything. But we also know that subsequently we moved from this and most of our heroes, the aulia–e-karam and the Sufis who were responsible for spreading Islam as a faith in Iran, the subcontinent and else where were not part of this communal praying army. They all prayed in seclusion, establishing their own relationship with God. We all hold them in great reverence although they did not follow the method of prescribed communal prayer.

So did the Sufis ignore most of the Book? Of course they did, they just focused on a few core principles and then devoted their life perfecting them. Wouldn’t you agree that Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and Illama Iqbal also did the same and provided much needed guidance and help to the umma in their time. We also need to define certain main themes which are important for us today.

Tehsinabbasi

That`s definitely better than identifying the principles of Islam or any other religion simply as being a good human being. Such statements express nothing other than one`s discomfort about or unwillingness to scrutinize real issues. Please remember, Islam is supposed to be a simple religion that everyone can understand in simple terms.

All one`s saying is that if you ever hope to ``win,`` (and one genuinely wishes you do) then you have to take off self-imposed blinkers, no matter how comfortable they are, and how good one looks wearing them. Otherwise you stand no chance against somone as supremely formidable as Ustaad Zeemax, or someone as committed as Urstruly, who are not only very honest but also extremely intelligent in understanding Islam as a whole social system.

Look, the problem is not whether each one of us can tailor/make ``my religion`` perfectly as we want (even a kid learns to interpret every fact to suit his or her theory). The challenge is: whether ``our religion`` has any realistic chance of defeating, replacing other rival interpretations in the minds of vast numbers of others. And such success will not come unless other people are sure that you are looking at things pretty much same way as they are. Hope, confidence, morale boosting are all wonderful, necessary things, if at the end of the day one goes back and also conducts some realistic study of things.

Well, apologies. Enough of my rant - which is nothing more than now old rant against leftists, liberals, humanists of all stripes. You guys obviously understand these things better. And only you know what your ultimate goals are.

#40 by Kaalchakra:

Basic Principles of Islam:

-Belief in a single God, and that each one of us as individuals establish our own relationship with God, without the interference from or of any other individual or entity.
-Belief in a righteous path (sirat-e-mustaqeem) which leads us to God and not astray.
-Belief in consequences of our actions.

These are the principles which allow me the flexibility and the liberty which I have taken in trying to pick the core values which I have chosen. But I may not be at all addressing what you have in mind, because you are right I cannot tell you any thing that exists outside of my mind.

Islam is Islam. people can be criticised if they are not behaving accordingly to their religious teaching. a religion cannot be criticised. as nobody likes to be told they are in the wrong, this will have to be done in a gentle tone and good manners to the hilt. of course knowledge of religion is necessary, before correcting others. these make the ideally middle ground.

#40 by kaalchakra

Thanks for raising this question of the author. One must be intellectually honest above all, and that requires a lot of courage. I have the courage to state that Islam is ALL of what is in the Qura`an, as well as in what the first four Caliphs did in their everyday routine, which includes a lot of politics, diplomacy, subversion, and violence. And certainly there`s a lot of goody goody stuff as well, like never leaving anyone hungry in their state, and the principle of justice alike above all.

Now I would like to pose a question of my own. Does anyone think the latter part of the above underlined statement is possible without the former?

``going back to the basic principles enunciated by Islam.``

Again, Ishrat, none of this will mean anything unless you boldly define what those basic, necessary and sufficient principles of Islam/Quran are, principles that you will save above all else.

Unfortunately, in this august galaxy of scholars and nonscholars not one has ever been willing to step his neck out and spell something that they are all completely convinced actually exists outside of their own minds.

Please, you will make much greater contribution to everyone`s understanding by actually stating what the core of Islam/Quran is / what their core principles are than by writing long articles about either of those.

... unless of-course you`re a follower of some religion, of which I am not aware, which was started by the off-spring of Gautam Budha and Mother Teresa.

#31 by Tehsinabbasi

I see. So I assume you would like to expunge most of Al-Baqra, and certainly all of Al-Tauba, as well as scores of others dealing with unpalatable stuff, and keep only the goody goody stuff which talks about nice things like the Readers` Digest.

Actually, why do you need a religion at all? You can be an agnostic which is fine, and join Dr. Sohail on his backyard sitting around a bonfire with glazed eyes and enjoying the beer.

I mean, why do you need a middle ground? Why not go the whole way? It looks like you need to keep the label for some reason which, frankly, seems a bit amateurish to me.