Re: # 225

I try not reading posts of this sort as it simply repeats the assured prediction of muslims (including pakistani paindoos) around God`s Globe.


Wherever there was room for immigration, paindoes certainly have filled it all, creating a general ID in europe/america with their characters for the rest. And yes, Indians do seem to be supported and have succeeded in many intern/national areas; shall we give up in light of prediction knowing that nothing will work or keeping the hopes up could result in a thumbs up?!?!!?!

God`s playing with them too -I hope you agree :)

Europe
I try not reading posts of this sort as it simply repeats the assured prediction of muslims (including pakistani paindoos) around God`s Globe.


Wherever there was room for immigration, paindoes certainly have filled it all, creating a general ID in europe/america with their characters for the rest. And yes, Indians do seem to be supported and have succeeded in many intern/national areas; shall we give up in light of prediction knowing that nothing will work or keeping the hopes up could result in a thumbs up?!?!!?!

God`s playing with them too -I hope you agree :)

#259 by behram1

[My fealty towards Pakistan is because.....]

...of the feeling in your penis.

Ref behram1 #259

[My fealty towards Pakistan is because the muslims of Pakistan have never mistreated me, unlike the hindoos who have burnt 2000 muslims in Gujarat.]

Have Hindus in India mistreated Indian Parsis?

[And that is what you hindoo Pakistan haters can never understand.]

Yep, we can`t understand it because we fail to see any logic there.

#274 by farouq_taj

Thanks for the link. You have identified the Aisha Azim phenomenon as follows:

She is one of a new generation of young veiled Muslim women who are the complete opposite of the expected stereotype of a meek, shy and submissive Muslim female who ventures out rarely. These women are arrogant, hostile and out to deliberately shock and provoke. Their behaviour is calculated to antagonise and draw some sort of a reaction from those around them. This is a group that has developed a pathological hatred for the very society in which they’ve been raised.

Any reasons why it has turned out to be so, and that too particularly in Britain? This sounds like the suffragettes. Shall appreciate your valuable comments.

I think this topic is now too old for Chowk to publish anymore articles about it. Here is mine which didn`t get submitted on time:

http://britishmuslim.wordpress.com/2006/10/24/buildingbarriers/

Farouq Taj.

harish--my particulars may have been wrong (sorry!) but the underlying PRINCIPLE remains valid: you cannot judge a whole community on the actions of a few.

nasah: probably but can`t give you hard facts. i`d say it is likely in places which have large muslim minorities or majorities such as certain districts of manchester, bradford, birmingham and london.

a lot of these illnesses are linked to poverty --and muslims (mostly indo-paki-banglos) tend to be amongst the poorest living in poor housing.

#258 by Naqshbandi

just recently a hindu in canada went into a school and killed some school kids before killing himself. he wasn`t a freshie either but a citizen who`d grown up there. can i take him as an example and say, see hindus in canada aren`t integrated?

Yaar Naqshi, two things here:

1. Kimveer Gill, the guy who was the perpetrator of the school killings was a Sikh, and a non-religious one at that.

2. He didn`t quote religious/cultural reasons as the motivation behind his crime.

You might want to revisit your post in light of these facts.

Naqsh is this true for the Muslim women in England?

``Asian women in Greater Manchester have been warned that their lifestyle could lead to crippling disabilities in later life.

Medical tests on women in Tameside and Rochdale revealed serious deficiencies in vitamin D which is essential to maintain healthy bones in later life. Blood samples taken from the women revealed that one-in-four had a severe deficiency and 90 per cent had inadequate levels of vitamin D.

Scientists who conducted the survey say it is highly likely that these results would be repeated throughout the entire south Asian female population of Greater Manchester.

Vitamin D deficiency leads to brittle bones. Later in life women with the condition suffer from severe aches and pains in the joints. Multiple fractures are also common. Another danger is rickets - severely bowed legs, a result of the bones being unable to carry bodyweight. Even more sinister, mothers who have a vitamin D deficiency, can pass the condition on to their children through breast milk.

The deficiency is all the more tragic since it is easy and cheap to overcome - more sunlight and a change of diet is all that is needed. ``The trouble is many Asian women are receiving a double whammy. Because of traditional lifestyles and dress they do not get enough sunlight which is the main source of vitamin D. Oily fish and foods like margarine are also source of vitamin D but you have to eat great quantities of these to make up for the lack of sunlight. ``

In countries like Bangladesh, India and Pakistan the sunlight is almost year round but of course its a different matter in the UK. But even 10 to 15 minutes exposure a day to sunlight in our summer would be enough.

``In the west, rickets used to be a disease of the poor. Today it has been almost eradicated among the white population but is not uncommon among UK south Asians.``

nasah: i agree 100% with the Swedish Minister you quoted.

Re: # 266
tahmed

there is a much more balanced article in the latest newsweek, by denis macshane.

and this is how the arabs - whom these paindoos in UK try to identify with - treat pakistanis whose crime is to try and make an honest living:

PESHAWAR - October 21: A group of Pakistanis deported from Oman were produced in a court here on Saturday.—Dawn

here is another example of the same wake-up call to the europeans resulting from the paindoo behavior pakistani immigrants to the UK: For Multiculturalist Britain, Uncomfortable New Clothes

excerpt:

For 40 years, Britain has nurtured a policy of multiculturalism celebrating ethnic diversity and its emblems. That policy evolved in the 1960’s, at a time when Muslim immigrants, largely from Pakistan, arrived to take menial jobs. Now, Britons are confronted with the sometimes alienated descendants of that first generation — like three of the four London ers last year — people born in the country, raised in its schools and newly drawn to a re-examination of their ancestors’ faith.

#264 slowly, but surely, the world is waking up to the mullah rubbish.

``Sweden`s Muslim minister turns on veil
Helena Frith Powell

THE latest media darling of Scandinavian politics is not only black, beautiful and Muslim; she is also firmly against the wearing of the veil.

Nyamko Sabuni, 37, has caused a storm as Sweden’s new integration and equality minister by arguing that all girls should be checked for evidence of female circumcision; arranged marriages should be criminalised; religious schools should receive no state funding; and immigrants should learn Swedish and find a job.

Supporters of the centre-right government that came to power last month believe that her bold rejection of cultural diversity may make her a force for change across Europe. Her critics are calling her a hardliner and even an Islamophobe.

“I am neither,” she said in an interview. “My aim is to integrate immigrants. One is to ensure they grow up just as any other child in Sweden would.”

Sabuni believes all immigrants must try to become proficient in Swedish — just as she did when she arrived from Africa aged 12 — rather than alienating locals.

“Language and jobs are the two most crucial things for integration,” she said. “If you want to become a Swedish citizen, we think you should have some basic knowledge of Swedish.”

An elegant, vivacious woman who uses subtle make-up and wears soft clothes in pastel shades and tight woollen sweaters, she argues for a total ban on veils being worn by girls under the age of consent, which is 15 in Sweden.``

The only fly in the ointment -- the lady is a rightwinger -- well if the right delivers so what -- so far the left has not.

Re:muqaddam#257

[..Mr Lump of should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from Muslim tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India....]

Yaar, take it easy on Behram. He suffers from serious ``balls`` envy. He knows his forefathers got their a$$ kicked royally by muslims - most of them converted or fled to India to save themselves. They gave up their great Persian culture and became mental slaves to Arabs. Look at Iran today - a wasteland run by Mullahs and Ahmedinijads. A race of Aryans reduced to the status of lapdogs grovelling at the feet of Arabs and their religion. This is their permanent punishment till eternity - to be second class muslims.

As compared to that, hindus fought for their culture and civilization. We never gave up our religion, and by god, we bounced back. Today Indian civilization is on the rise with both economic and militray power. Iran is a mullah based pathetic joke of a nation. India is respected in the west, Iran is treated like a leper. Indians are welcomed by the west and the Aryan civilizations. Iranians are spitted on by everyone, especially in the west.

As a result, poor Behram has ``balls`` envy. Why couldnt his forefathers have balls to fight and save their Aryan civilization? Why did they capitulate and become mental slaves? Why do they survive by being schmoozers in India and Pakistan to whoever throws crumbs at them? These are the questions that torment Behram as he can see how the mightly Persians are now impotent muslims Iranians - what a descent into filth.

#258 by Naqshbandi


[you CANNOT take a few perverted individuals and use them as proof against the whole of that community to which they belong.

just recently a hindu in canada went into a school and killed some school kids before killing himself. he wasn`t a freshie either but a citizen who`d grown up there. can i take him as an example and say, see hindus in canada aren`t integrated? ]


No, you cannot. He was not doing it in the name of bhagwan Sri Krishna or some other Hindu deity. And his is a stray incident compared to the thousands by Muslims around the globe.

Re# 259
If you are not a Parsee, you are excused.

Re248 by ballukhan on October 20, 2006 0:14am PT

PseudoKhan:

As usual you have written without adding much to knowledge. What the heck this means
{The ``Asura`` (Ahura?) and Sura stories ..the fight getween the bad guys and good guys..............the lightness and darkness...........these stories are common place in all pagan religions............}?

Your response was to what I asserted that it is Zoroastriansm that created the concept of Good and Evil, and I was wondering whether Urstruly saw satan only in the western world? He has not yet responded.

I have already asserted that vibrating mad-mullah-o-crat masadi is a wahabi nut case in the west who could be looked upon as satan. In fact I have given him the title of shaitaan-e-buzorg, which to us Iranians is given to the highest evil existing, and on this chowk, this title is bestowed upon this leftist/rightist weathercock mad-mullah.

Now, if he is of Arabic descent then we must figure out some title in arabic, for which some enlightened muslim of this chowk might be able to help.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 257 by muqaddam on October 21, 2006 7:57am PT

You are just used to squatting on the railroad tracks, and claim historical knowledge that you have none. Your upbringing was eating daal that looks more like a new birth`s dung than food which gives your mouth some linguistic flavoring.

Your hindooism notwithstanding, I have never claimed that I was a Parsee from India. But, being a Hindoo, you would not know the difference. Your hindoo brain is stuck between the legs that you have used incessantly squatting on those railroad tracks, and once in awhile, you tickle it to get some answers of why hindoos are hated the world over.

My fealty towards Pakistan is because the muslims of Pakistan have never mistreated me, unlike the hindoos who have burnt 2000 muslims in Gujarat.

And that is what you hindoo Pakistan haters can never understand.

harimau,

you CANNOT take a few perverted individuals and use them as proof against the whole of that community to which they belong.

just recently a hindu in canada went into a school and killed some school kids before killing himself. he wasn`t a freshie either but a citizen who`d grown up there. can i take him as an example and say, see hindus in canada aren`t integrated?

Re #244

Our friend Beharami seems to be back with a fang. Here`s a repeat of an earlier post to remind him of what one thinks of him:

Janab Tatti( due to his obsession with shitters by the railroad, if he is so enamoured by the sight, why not build himself a hut by the railroad and enjoy all the shitting scenes closely)) a.k.a. Mr Lump of Shit alias Behram 1 who( I now learn) is a Parsee, belongs to that clan of Iranians who thought it more dignified in seeking refuge in India than submitting to thoee marauding Muslim hordes who were laying waste to that beautiful land of Iran so that they could keep their faith from extinction.
Looking at his pedigree, why Janab Tatti`s posts are so venomously anti India is hard to understand.
He was born in Pakistan but speaks Gujarati at home like all Parsees, goes to the Agiary(Fire Temple) and when he dies his remains will be fed to vultures on a tower of silence. Most of his relatives are probably in India and thriving in a society that respects all religions, while he or may be his parents decided to stay on in Pakistan, out of compulsion obviously, because there is not a single Parsee who would have voluntarily opted for Pakistan after partition and moved to that part of the country.
All in all it appears that he has to outdo the Pakistanis in hating India and all things Indian because that is the only way he can show that he is a true Pakistani.

Mr Lump of should remember that India is the country which gave refuge to his forefathers, who were running from Muslim tyranny in Iran and allowed them to set foot on India and treat it as their own motherland. It is sad that while most Parsees have excelled in all fields and done their adopted motherland proud, we have here an ungrateful descendent of this great race who has nothing but hate for the land of his forefathers` adoption. He can only be described as a blot on the legacy of his clan and the only word to describe such people is `ehsaan faramosh` or `namak haraam`.

Godspeed to him.

No matter what Naqshbandi says about adapting to the country one lives in, here is proof again that you can take a Pakistani out of Pakistan but you can`t take Islamofascism out of him.

Women need the hijab/burqa to avoid being raped!

News item: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20646

[In Australia, Norway, Sweden and other Western nations, there is a distinct race-based crime in motion being ignored by the diversity police: Islamic men are raping Western women for ethnic reasons. We know this because the rapists have openly declared their sectarian motivations.

When a number of teenage Australian girls were subjected to hours of sexual degradation during a spate of gang rapes in Sydney that occurred between 1998 and 2002, the perpetrators of these assaults framed their rationale in ethnic terms. The young victims were informed that they were “sluts” and “Aussie pigs” while they were being hunted down and abused.

In Australia`s New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.]

sorry, no satan to blame for bad influence in hinduism..its YOUR karma that you must deal with.. no cop-outs.

iron_mask

Freewill as a viable concept will be more troublesome in any society that makes God`s Will or God`s Grace an active prime mover in human affairs. In fact, in any society that sees God sitting somewhere separately from the human being.

That doesn`t mean that faithful people won`t try to ``interpret`` it in different ways. It means that there will be ongoing and serious philosophical tussle regarding God`s role in human affairs, and very often arguments based God`s Will will trump arguments based on human will.

#250 If I am not mistaken, Kaalchakra you seem to be saying that ``freewill`` as a concept doesnot exist in religions where prophethood is paramount. That all out actions are either dictated by the All Mighty, and ofcourse some actions have been given to us already by way of the prophet.

If that is the case then hasn`t the present condition in most countries/nations preordained? Why should these guys cry for freedom?

Re: # 251

missed out a few lines:

So where is the ``knotty problem of freewill``?

The problem is straightforward - you do it or you dont?

You have a set of choices in front of you and you one one or more? Period. The outcome of these makes you a sinner or a gooder?

Re: # 250

Behram1, Kaalchakra might give a clue in #250.

So esentially what you are saying Kaalchakra is that it is this

``potential can either diminish or get enhanced depending upon a number of factors, including our own choices and actions``

which can make the asura into a sura and the other way round.

Is this not similar in concept to the ``repenting`` ``redemption`` of the sinner?

And is this not similar to the concept of ``sinning`` by the good guys?

Each one with freewil moves from one domain to the other?

iron_mask

We Hindus don`t even know what `spirit` is, unless it is something that gets people into a higher state of consciousness. :)

The core of Indian morality is not equality, but equity (and that has plusses and minuses).

The idea is that we are ALL made of the same `divine substance,` and have divine ``potential.`` However, over time this potential can either diminish or get enhanced depending upon a number of factors, including our own choices and actions.

(Notice that the problem of `free will`` is not as knotty for us since each one of us is ``God,`` and thus retains both the freedom to choose/act and the responsibility for our choices/actions.)

behram1

That`s a fascinating topic...perhaps Ballukhan`s suggestion offers a clue. It could be that there was a commonly held original view about good and evil forces (devas and asuras/ahuras). Over time, one branch/cousin developed a black and white view, and became the progenitor of all latter day semitic ideas, by concentrating evil in one personified entity - a satan. The other branch/cousin refined its ideas in shades of grey, wherein the domains of both good and evil were quite fragmented and intermixed closely.

Re: # 238

The ``Asura`` (Ahura?) and Sura stories ..the fight getween the bad guys and good guys..............the lightness and darkness...........these stories are common place in all pagan religions............

Re: # 237 by urstruly:

``I have survived many gunfights.``

You should stick to romance and fiction. Leave the gory things to the likes of NHK.

Regards.

Re: # 242
Kaalchakra, that is problem. Prophethood is assigned to the person who can deliver the goods to the largest section of the people and the rest follow the group. It delivers a hierarchy which is easily understood by the people. That is why India is a bloody chaotic country and nothing good will come from it.

This business of everyone being god is a sham. what you saying that everyone is just s powerful as the other. you got to be kidding about thi equality of spirit thingy

Re: # 242
Kaalchakra, that is problem. Prophethood is assigned to the person who can deliver the goods to the largest section of the people and the rest follow the group. It delivers a hierarchy which is easily understood by the people. That is why India is a bloody chaotic country and nothing good will come from it.

This business of everyone being god is a sham. what you saying that everyone is just s powerful as the other. you got to be kidding about thi equality of spirit thingy

So how did the hindoos lose this satan chap? huh! This satan chap is clearly amongst Persian Zoroastrians, and now these despicable hindoos do not have satan! What happened? Hindoos are brothers to the Zoroastrians, are they not? At least that is what those damn Parsees have been harping that Sanscrit and Avesta languages are sister languages, etc.

So Hindoos have lost satan chap, and Parsees have kept it, eh!. How much stupid does it get in India?

Urstruly, where are you? Some of us need your enlightened views.

Re: # 237

urstruly,

chavez is better than you - he can smell Him :) ........

but seriously, drop by the bar one day and i am sure we can cure you of whatever ails you ......... i hope you are not sitting in ehtiqaf and using your computer - god doesn`t like that ....... i didn`t even know what ethiqaf was until a friend of mine disappeared during ramadhan ... when i asked what happened to him, i was told he was sitting in ehtiqaf - i thought he was suffering from hemmaroids or something ............ to cut a long story short, the man became pious and insufferable and i haven`t seen him in years .......... let me save you before you suffer the same fate ............ i am on a mission from Him

iron_mask

If we are made of the same ``material`` of which ``God`` is made, then Prophethood (strictly from the Hindoo point of view) is a silly idea. Each one of us is a ``prophet`` (actually better, God) to a greater or lesser extent. Each is free to realize ``God`s message`` within himself or herself. Even in our most backward, casteist form, we have acknowledged that.

(none of this is meant to offend anyone else who believes differently)

Re: # 240
so you mean to ay any and ever human being (MAN or WOMAN) can become a prophet and attain this prophethood?

Tauba, tauba,....no wonder hindoos are so bloody backward. I can understand HP`s adjective of ``Macacas`` now!

You guys have no concept of historicity nor do you understand the uniqueness of prophet hood!

``hoodwinking atheists.``

LOL, iron, you figures us out good! Hindus, in a fundamental sense, simply do not believe that there is any god/God sitting quite apart from them, out THERE somewhere.

You are right...in semitic terminology perhaps atheism comes closest to that concept. We truly are men and women of no ``faith,`` except the faith we ourselves agree to create for a certain amount of time.

Re: # 238

Gannewalah Behram1:Do hindoos have satans?

I donot think they have any satans or gods. Hinoods can confirm this. They are bunch of hoodwinking athiests who believe in ``aham bhrahmasmi``. How much bigger can an ego get?
Even you a great man doesnot say this.

Re: # 237 by Urstruly on October 19, 2006 7:10am PT

Dear Urstruly:

{The paradigm shift occured when I migrated to US; there was no indoctrination of any kind because I was not cut out of the material that get indoctrinated; it was only observation. I saw the satan incarnate.}

Wow! You have now started seeing satan in the west. Congratulations! Gosh, it seems Urstruly, that even satan knows where to reside.

And this satan chap does not reside in our Islamic world, eh!?

Well, I will agree with you. One of them is our own shaitaan-e-buzorg vibrating mad mullah-o-crat masadi right here on the chowk. And then there are all these hindoo satans, don`t we? Do hindoos have satans?

Respectfully submitted,

Dr. Sohail

Throuhgout my life there have been two major themes in my dreams; one is/was fighting to save the planet from bad guys, aliens, monsters, predatory animals, and even androids; the second theme has been running towards something, to catch up.

hamidm

There is no childhood trauma. According to your standards I had been leading a pretty normal life all my life. I spent most of my university life chasing JTI, APMSO, and NSF gunslingers and lowlives like Jiyay Sindh. I have survived many gunfights. Had I lived longer in Pakistan during my working life there, I would have turned phenomenon of being an asswhole into an art form. The paradigm shift occured when I migrated to US; there was no indoctrination of any kind because I was not cut out of the material that get indoctrinated; it was only observation. I saw the satan incarnate.

Re: # 235 Tahmed32, what is interesting is that the rich are never touched by this. The poor pakistani, and some other arabs and north africans (try calling a libyan or an algerian an arab - they will laugh and suggest that they are a diffrent kind from the saudi`s)

What is even more interesting is that the muslims in places likeBradford, Bolton, Glasgow, London, Birmingham, leeds, etc are repeating the exercise of post 1857 - going into a shell. They need to come out of it (not like in pre 1857 manner) but in the Syed kind of way.
In fact you will find both streaks (the shell by the older folk, the other way by the younger lot). Reason and reality seem to be different for all of them.

dot #232: interesting article. It is interesting that ``muslims`` being referred to in the article are pakistanis basically. Correct me if I am wrong - but from what I have heard and read, wealthy Arabs live in luxurious homes in posh areas in UK (as they do in the US, btw) thanks to their unearned oil wealth. It is only these paindoos from Pakistan who are trying to be more arab than the arabs who live in these ghettoes. The bus bombers who killed themselves and innocent bus passengers in the name of the arabs were also from among these paindoos.

The price will, as I said, is being paid by pakistanis - not arabs - since Arabs dont need visas to come to UK to earn a living or to improve the living condition of their families back home. But people from poor families in Pakistan do.

Re: # 231

hhhhm! I guess I have short changed Echoboom. My praise was understated.

#232 tha pragraph in blue is the title of the article, the one in bold is a para taken from the article. The rest ofthe article is extremely interesting.

taken from today`s guardian.co.uk (a question why is it that it is the others who are arguing for and against the motion here....you will not find one muslim - and in this context this paragraph is rather apt - )

the link to the article titled : If this onslaught was about Jews, I would be looking for my passport

Politicians and media have turned a debate about integration into an ugly drumbeat of hysteria against British Muslims


The majority of British Muslims could have done themselves a favour if they had found a way to show just how unrepresentative Brooks and his ilk are. How powerful it would have been if, after 7/7, hundreds of thousands of British Muslims had taken to the streets to repudiate utterly the four bombers who had killed in the name of Islam. The model might have been the 2000 Basque march in Bilbao in protest against ETA violence. Or perhaps the 1992 funeral of an assassinated anti-mafia judge in Palermo, which turned into a rally of Sicilians against the crime organisation. The slogan for the British Muslim equivalent would have been obvious: Not in our name.

re. #230
[[echooboom...Your rationale and logic defies normal humans!]]

abay echo bhai ko iss se baRi taareef nahiN dey sakta, tu :)

echoboom you are way too convoluted. Your rationale and logic defies normal humans!
Go in peace, be you staright in your talk, and not forked and devious friend!

re. #228
echo: double aadaab! (sharmindagee se)

vaisey, I was about to post an addendum, one I think is quite crucial to your thesis: the irony, if you look at British society in the twentyfirst century -- and Naqshbandi would attest to this-- is that the cantonments there are fast disappearing there (and, if it pleases you, society is getting more Islamic/Christian there.)

Of course, you`re still looking for payback, aren`t ya? :)

PM:227
and a very good tasleemaat to you too my Saheeh Maseeh Bhai.

``Kuchh jo samjhhaa miray shikvay ko toa PM samjhha
`` Mujhh ko doazakh say nikal aanay kaa GM samjhha``..........Iqbal (parodied)

Only PM was who somewhat figured out my wail:`all`s not well``!
He thought that I was the GM, who knew his way out o` this hell

echo: Well said in #204! Adaab!!

How beautiful to see the Britoo-Baboons expressing fear about the up-coming Islamic Cantonments in London.

Now why Islamic Cantonments are bad in London, when our Bhooraa-Kalaa slaves still want to get petted & patted by their goraa Owner [`` He feeds me , hence I am``.] in Colonies & Cantonments in the Islamic Republic really confounds me!

Muslims come in color & sizes. There is a surge of blue-blood gora-muslims as well. There
are many many friends of the 2nd 3rd and even fourth generation muslims who can easily qualify to enslave Q2 and Q32`s children ( ``but they are laready learning to be slaves``..OH sorry)

---

When the British ruled India they set up well-policed areas in major cities known as Cantonments. Originally temporary encampments, by the beginning of the 20th century they had become permanent garrison bases.

In the London Spectator British journalist Charles Moore remarked recently: ``It would be a grim revenge for the Raj if an Islamic cantonment were permitted to set up in our capital.``

The Islamic movement Tablighi Jamaat (proselytizing group) wants to build a mosque in East London for up to 10,000 people as part of an ``Islamic Village`` in time for the London Olympics of 2012, near the official Olympic stadium at West Ham. Tablighi Jamaat is secretive and publishes little about itself, but it is on the fundamentalist side of the Islamic spectrum and has links with Wahabism. It is based in Pakistan, where for a Muslim to convert to Christianity is a capital offense.

It is planned the Mosque and surrounding buildings will ultimately accommodate 70,000 visitors. What happens after the Olympics is another matter, but what seems on the cards is a permanent Muslim city in the heart of London -- which already has large Muslim areas and a complex of mosques in the Finsbury Park area.

Britain as a whole is already well-supplied with mosques. There were a few in the 19th and early 20th centuries. By the 1980s there were about 150 and by 1996 there were 613. Now there are well over a thousand, many of them converted Anglican churches. The Muslim website ``British Muslim Heritage`` says: ``London probably has more mosques than any other city in the Western World, save Turkey ... the modern Muslim Londoner is spoilt for choice with regard to mosques.`` There are dozens in contiguous areas like Newham, Tower Hamlets and Hackney.

Tablight Jamaat`s spokesmen have claimed it is a moderate organization. However, it has been accused by the FBI of being a recruiting ground for al Qaeda, and two of the London tube bombers, including the leader, Mohammed Sidque Khan, are believed to have attended mosques run by it. French intelligence is reported by Le Monde to have described it as an ``antechamber of fundamentalism.``


LONDON`S FAR-LEFT MAYOR KEN LIVINGSTONE says he is ``very much in favor`` of the scheme. It is fair to say that Livingstone`s entire career has been concerned with culture-war against British institutions and identity. Even Tony Blair, whose record on these matters is pretty bad, was desperately against Livingstone gaining political power in London.

Livingstone`s background is relevant here for other reasons as well. He has called Ariel Sharon a war criminal, told a BBC interviewer that it was ``wrong to brand a British Muslim boy a terrorist if he got involved in Palestinian violence against Israel`` and claimed that the ``Jewish boys in Britain`` had contributed to the ``slaughter`` of Palestinians. He was temporarily suspended from office for having taunted a Jewish journalist about Nazism.

When asked if there was a possibility he himself had Jewish blood, Livingstone replied: ``I could be a self-hater, couldn`t I?`` -- which looks like a boast that he hates Jews. Where Rome`s mayor Walter Veltroni (who began as a communist) led 10,000 Italians in a torchlight protest outside the Iranian Embassy in Rome after Iranian President Ahmadinejad called for the annihilation of Israel, Livingstone did nothing.

When Muslim Brotherhood cleric Yousuf Al-Qaradawi -- who has vilified Jews, claimed there are no civilians in Israel and reportedly said of the London tube bombings: ``I consider this type of martyrdom operation as an evidence of God`s justice`` -- visited London, Livingstone (against the advice of moderate Muslim leaders) received him as a personal guest, stating: ``Here is the force that we need to engage with if we are to actually get a dialogue.`` When the black chairman of the British Commission for racial equality, Trevor Phillips, said he was concerned about the failures of multiculturalism, Livingstone jeered that he expected Phillips soon to join the racist British National Party.

To round out one`s picture of the man and what he wants for the future of Britain and its identity and culture, Livingstone has called for the removal of two statues of 19th century military heroes, Sir Henry Havelock and Sir Charles Napier, from Trafalgar Square, allegedly because no one knows who they are. (Napier should be known to feminists at least. In India he put an end to suttee. Told that burning widows was a ``traditional custom,`` Napier responded: ``We also have a custom: when men burn women alive, we hang them.``) Livingstone has told schoolchildren that President George Bush is ``everything repellent in politics...venal...corrupt`` and expressed sympathy for the IRA.

Hence, Livingstone`s support for the mosque-complex project may be seen as a significant to the culture-war against the fabric and structure of Britain`s and the Anglosphere`s traditions, values and history.


THE MOSQUE IS INTENDED TO BE A NEW ``Islamic Landmark`` in Britain. Comparable in size to Saint Paul`s Cathedral, it will dominate a great area of the London skyline and be massively illuminated at night. One way of putting this in perspective is to ask what the chances are of establishing a cathedral or synagogue with accommodation around for 70,000 Christians or Jews in Saudi Arabia. The first major London mosque was built in 1944 with a grant from the British Government in return for an Anglican cathedral being built in Cairo, where there was then a British Army. Would that happen in any Muslim country now?

It matters much in one sense whether the builders of this new ``cantonment`` have extremist associations or not, though one need not be too paranoid to imagine that it could create a vast haven and training area for extremists and no-go areas for everyone else including police (plans to give police powers to close mosques used by extremists were quietly dropped by the impotent Home Office last December). More importantly it would be a huge step further in incorporating part of the historic heart of Britain into the House of Islam, a process which according to Muslim teaching is irreversible.

According to the Daily Mail of August 7, almost a quarter of British Muslims -- 370,000 of 1.6 million -- believe the 7/7 the London bombings were justified because of British support for the war on terror. This is almost double a previous figure of 13%. A third of Muslims said they disapproved of the freedoms allowed in Britain and would rather live under Sharia Law, and 45% believed the Jews were behind 9/11.

Following Pope Benedict`s controversial lecture the website Little Green Footballs published pictures of Muslims outside Westminster Cathedral (London`s Catholic cathedral) waving placards including ``Islam Will Conquer Rome,`` and ``May Allah Curse the Pope`` and chanting: ``Pope Benedict you will pay, the Mujahadeen are coming your way.``

On the fifth anniversary of 9/11 the general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain -- which the government recognizes as the leading voice of British Muslims -- Dr. Muhammad Abdul Bari, claimed that if ``demonization`` of Muslims continued, ``then Britain will have to deal with two million [sic] Muslim terrorists, 700,000 of them in London.``
....................................................................................................................................

Hal G. P. Colebatch, a lawyer and author, has lectured in International Law and International Relations at Notre Dame University and Edith Cowan University in Western Australia and worked on the staff of two Australian Federal Ministers.

aslam #213 I wish what you wrote was true. Unfortunately, in order to gain knowledge and wisdom, one needs to be open to the rest of the world. Otherwise, like the proverbial frog in the well, one develops a very narrow mind. Because visas to developed countries are now harder to get for immigrants from Pakistan as well as other muslim countries in north africa and the middle east - thanks to the mischief created by these paindoos who feel secure in their visas - youth from these countries will have fewer opportunities to come to the west than they had before. Indians on the other hand are getting more and more positions of leadership (e.g. a leading US firm, Pepsi-Cola, appointed an Indian woman as CEO recently; Mittal is the captain of the steel industry world-wide; and so on), as well as millions of other key positions in journalism, medicine, science.

And this has a reverse brain gain affect on India as these people use their skills and sophistication and capital acquired in the west within India. Pakistan will have no brains to be drained or gained - only half-brained madrassah graduates who will in ten or twenty years have forgotten about the big talk of the likes of echoboom. Even the well educated Pakistanis able to come to the west will (and already are) suffer in a thousand small ways as they find it harder to prosper, thanks to this stigma of being troublemakers attached to them.

This is the bitter fact that one day will dawn upon more and more Pakistanis as they seek to get second-tier jobs from....Indian bosses. Even now, Indians are investing in property and industry in Pakistan. Paindoos will one day forget their big talk about jihad and forget their arab-worshipping - but by then, the damage would be done.

GT:

You are saying in very polite and refined manner what I usually say in by own boisterous, rollicking, and insulting way ( a great way indeed!....given the ardor for me of bevies who adore me)*

*there I put another carbuncle--in all shades of meanings-- on the sphincter of iron-mask``

It seems the knuckle-heads who are deluded into believing that they have come a long way to be mistaken as a goraa & not be mistaken as someone as highly learned as one from madresaa need to be reminded, now in capitals & undescores:

So why not seek, as Iqbal suggests, the women`s view?--even non-muslim!; even British!

........But a woman`s viewpoint, which is blatantly absent here, so that the backward westoxicated Kalloo baighairats learn a thing or two


What do the Cantonement and Colony toataa-mainaas know about dissent & rebellion. They have been programmed to be docile & servile ever since their Master dived into their gene-pool and made a nest in the toataa-mainaa family-tree.

---

Criticism of the veil is not about

liberating women

by Lindsey German


One of the more distasteful features of the wave of attacks on Muslims has been the sight of feminists lining up to support Jack Straw’s comments against the veil.


Women who claim they believe in liberation should know better. The women’s movement of the 1960s was anti-racist, coming out of the civil rights and anti-war movements in the US.


Those who espouse their ideas today are attacking some of the most oppressed women in the name of liberating them. Their assumption is that any Muslim woman who wears the veil or the hijab does so because of pressure.


This is false - some women may fit into this category, but many Muslim women choose to wear the niqab or the hijab for their identity, or for political or other reasons. They are making a statement which they have every right to make.


You would think from the attacks that it was only among Muslims that women’s oppression still exists. In fact, women in the West do not have even the most basic equality, despite nominal lip service to the term.


Women suffer worse wages, have to do most housework and childcare and are subject to sexual double standards.


Feminists often say superior ideas on women’s liberation in the West go back 200 years, which makes the West more advanced than the Middle East or South Asia. But women’s liberation has long been a minority view.


It took until well into the 20th century before women won the vote after a long struggle. It took another struggle to put issues like abortion, equal pay and gay liberation on the agenda in the 1960s and 1970s.


These struggles are still to be won. Only a small minority of women have benefited from changes in society - they pay other, often immigrant, women, to do domestic work.

They have turned their backs on any struggle to change the world and supported a series of bloody wars aimed at countries with Muslim populations.


They now presume to tell Muslim women they can’t be liberated unless they dress and behave like them.

Zee,

It`s cherry-picking. That was not the essence of his speech of AMIL 1930 but 1) explanation of how Muslim politics cant be separated from Islam and 2) the course of Indian Muslims within Indian confederation etc....... (I need to read that again to give an accurate summary of his speech) BUT this is what I can say off-hand abt his speech.

His tone and tenor of speech is different from that of say, Jinnah or Liaquat. I need not tell u abt Iqbal since u know a lot abt him, his life and most importantly his poetry.

As for ur point, the concernns of Muslims may be the same but they are not living as one social or political unit nor they are going to be one unit in future. You have to grapple with the modern truths of nation-states, multi-religious and multi-cultural societies.

On the presetn topic, I cant convince u on this rigidity of veil.......people change with times and we need to factor the new changes as we move from age to age.

Re: # 219 It`s easy: Keep your religion in your pants.

Re: # 217 the next time you are in my part of the town, give me a tinkle and the whisky`s on me? (T)

The issue raised by Mr. Naqshbandi is not so much the niqab, but:

``Muslims should be willing to adapt to the host culture as much as possible......``

I hope the author will inform us more about the ``...as much as possible.....`` bit, through other specific cases as well. It would also be nice to know as to who should decide on the ``limits`` of acceptance and through what mechanism. After all, we see contradictory opinions amongst people who consider themselves ``devout Muslims``.

Regards

Re: # 217

shows just how westoxicated the elite were even in your grandma`s time. The gene-pool has not got diluted you are still a whiskey drinking westoxicated scum of the earth

BTW have ever gone drinking with Echoboom? and did you see........

... my mother`s burqa

...... my mother`s burqa was a pretty satiny grey thing - it was the fashni type with belts and bows and always smelled of chanel no-5......... like my father`s jinnah cap, which appeared mysteriously twice a year, this burqa was only deployed when she turned onto gurdat singh road in quetta or about half a mile from sarki darwaza in peshawar .........in quetta, where she could drive all the way to her father`s front door, she usually got by with just putting on the top and fooling prying eyes into thinking that she had the whole thing on ............ this way she managed to protect the honor of the popalzai clan as she drove past uncle lal mohammad`s ghee store and cousin nasrullah`s restaurant ..........

........ sarki darwaza in peshawar had a larger burqa zone because she actually had to walk through mohammad zai territory to get to her uncle`s house ...... now, every one knows that the mohammad zais are scoundrels who would start wagging their tongues if they saw sardar sahib`s niece without the burqa - but she survived

....... a few miles away, in saddar or kissa khwani bazaar, she never had to wear the burqa because she didn`t know anyone there .... in quetta cantt she would even drop her dopatta and put on one of those belly-exposing saris ........as long as there weren`t any durranis around, she felt she didn`t need to cover up .........

......... grandma was another story - married at eleven to a man thirty years older than her, she made up her own rules...... sure she had a white gobi burqa which hung next to khan baba`s holstered revolver and she would throw it on her head as she headed out to see the matinee show (she went to the movies at least once a week) - but she never put down the veil .... the burqa just sat there setting off her brilliant green eyes ......now, that is a fashion statement - that and grandpa`s big bad revolver ........... he never took it out of the holster but never left the house without it, and she never put the hood down but always wore the burqa ......

.... since we are talking about grandmas - my other grandma was a hoot .... she would sit on the charpoy showing a lot of leg through the dhoti and smoke the hookah (or my father`s gold flake cigarettes) ........ she probably didn`t even know what a burqa was - it was a sophisticated city thing and she didn`t have time for all that nonsene .....

Re: # 213
further
btw by some measure arabs are integrated in france, some 25% are married to french, us has not been able to achieve that with the blacks.

Re: # 213: that would be true if we lived on Plupiter adn globalization is not a reality. Resources be it human or others are fungible and move where there is demand for the same. Technically talented people will not ait 50 yrs for their home country to develop to enjoy the same living standrds as those in the west adn japan. I will throw in another complexity. cross border acquisitions led by emerging market companies are going to drive the growth in both sides of the globe.

#213 by aslam644 on October 18, 2006 7:44am PT


That whole brain drain theory is BS. If the third world country doesn`t have the right conditions in which it`s most talented thrive, the talented should be allowed to go wherever their talents will be used best(i.e. to the west). Once the said third world country creates the right conditions, the expats will return..and their experience in the west amounts to a net brain gain.

It`s already happening in India. There`s a bunch of people who`re going back because they want to start their own thing. These people would probably have been stuck in midddle management if it weren`t for the skills they gained in the west.

Re: # 211
tahmed
the days when the west accepted unskilled workers are over, now days it`s highly skilled graduates they accept, which the developing world can`t afford to lose. when a country enters middle income status it needs talented people to grow further. it is better if talented people stay in their home countries and help in it`s progress.

Re: # 210
does it include Echoboom....the Puritanical ego of Chowk. This is the man who calls upon the wrath of the gods on our women and daughters for being westernised. Yet this man, dreams of all of this.

Evidence
#9 by echoboom on October 18, 2006 4:08am PT
PM:
echo miaN: Didn`t figure you to be a strict determinist
-.................................................................................

Whose idea was that?
Esoteric sujects like these are best discussed face to face with intelligent men, with a few bevy of beauties serving drinks with ardor & adoration..and here on earth!


maybe he can use his little women and daughters to serve the drinks all round - all skimpyly dressed ofcourse!

Looks like the french have found a solution to their immigration problem: the government has changed policies to make it easier to raise children in france. France used to be noted as being the country most open to third world immigrants, with 10 percent of so if its population being muslim immigrants. Now, thanks to the continuing turmoil created by ``muslim`` immigrants, secure in their citizenships, showing their usual paindoo mentality of starting a fisaad (which they flatteringly refer to as jihad) whereever they live - the french are changing their tune.

Regardless of how europeans react to the suicide bombers an ``self-segregation`` and and so forth - one thing is for sure. Millions of Pakistanis and muslims worldwode who would have made a life for themselves in the west are already finding the doors closing on them. The many are paying for the mischief of the few who managed to get their visas to the west.

As Europe Grows Grayer, France Devises a Baby Boom

Excerpts:

While falling birthrates threaten to undermine economies and social stability across much of an aging Europe, French fertility rates are increasing. France now has the second-highest fertility rate in Europe -- 1.94 children born per woman, exceeded slightly by Ireland`s rate of 1.99. The U.S. fertility rate is 2.01 children. ..In recent months, officials from Japan, Thailand and neighboring Germany have traveled to France to study its reproductive secrets.

Listen a-holes, the next person who makes fun of the burkha will draw the wrath of 1.2345 Billion muslims. All of them..yup..it`s not a threat but don`t mess with the Burkha or else.

``The greatest of all Jihads is saying the word of truth in front of an oppressor

- Holy Prophet (pbuh)



AND THIS IS THE MADRASSA POWER THEY ARE SCARED OF

Every oppressors nightmare....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiTnSozGdtU&search=pakistan

hamidm,

can`t i first convince you to convert? ;-) after all, you`ve admitted in the past to going
to darbars such as data sahib in lahore and mrs hamidm already sounds like a sunni
muslim so what are you waiting for? :-)

#205 para2 ``you cannot and should abuse them. When this happens, the society will question these people, and put strictures on them. `` should be

you cannot and should not abuse them. When this happens, the society will question these people, and put strictures on them.

#185 by Charlie on October 17, 2006 10:53pm PT


Goras do it using cool words like UN, democracy and Human rights.


human rights is a western concept that should be shunned...

So Pakis are going to shut up about human rights in occupied Kashmir..

Cool..

Re: # 204
echoboom, they are ghettos yes, constructed through their insecure feelings. Such ghettos (as in pakistan) will come down - since Pakistan is not a free country where freedoms depend on the money and power you have - you will find such ghettos cropping up all over. Walled communities!

In a country like the U.K, freedoms are not dependent on the money or the power you weild. Every human being is cherished and nourished so that they can lead frutiful lives. Lives, which are fruitful, as decided by the individuals. Just because you have these freedoms you cannot and should abuse them. When this happens, the society will question these people, and put strictures on them.

Now if you stopped to think for a moment, you will see much to be admired in the jewish way. You very derisively suggest sucked the blood out, but think for a moment there, get rid of your anti-semitism and hatred of the jewish way of life and see what they did and were able to achieve. They integrated into the country, they became extremely productive members of the society - economically, intellectually, culturally, and as a result were admired, and as a result there was no fear of having these guys as your neighbours - since people also recognised their family friendliness. Yes, the very family friendliness you claim as your own. But have you ever thought what it is you are giving back to the society you are living in (see #193) - where I asked is there reciprocation?

the essence of what you write is a muddled up mish-mash of situation in pakistan and situation in U.K and West.

You as hamidm2 suggests are figuritively wearing a suicide belt around your body, are are eternally looking for a reason and justification for your stance and scared ****less of really pressing the button

Morse Code:
You still do not get it in your head.

How many Pakis in Pakistan not built walls? called colonies & cantonements. They are NOT ghettos to you? Just because they are the anglicised scum they look very normal to you?

A black neighbiorhood is a Ghetto and a jewish neighborhood ``jewish area``? and funny enough the word itself is yiddish/hebrew. It was these Jewish Ghettos which became very desirable once the Jewish people sucked the marrow out of the colonisers..and NOT by assimilating..hence still recognised by the jewish spunk ( not Kind David Hotel terrorism)
Jewish money (with a hint of admiration) and not arab Oil( buying up Crown Jewels--with derision. Athough the British Bastards are beneficieries of these investments: like the whole country is on Arab welfare/dole money).

Let me repeat the desire to serve & be loyal comes from the Jagirdaar & Sardaars chhitars which considers it a no no. `` Just dream to become jagrdaar & Sardaar yourself oneday........so that you too can look down upon others``.

Those who mistreat their own are the ones who consider it the bosse`s right to kick them as well. THis in a nitshell of the Ba Ba Blacksheep mentality of Pakis.

Do you not see how servile, timid, and kow-towing are when the Uniformed Langoor is at the white house, in contrast to when he is barking at those who are PROUD ``in-you-face-muslim`` in the ISLAMIC republic. Don`t you see that the english speaking totaa-mainaas still thin of themsekves as the ``norm`` or regular & those who eat dress walk talk non-farngi like as some weird or freak.

Fornicating fashion models good good, Fundamentalist face-covering bad bad in the ISLAMIC republic!


But their is always a Nasrullah, an Ahmedi Nedjad, a Chavez and a Kim....Do you see it is NOT an Islami or Muslim issue. It is a slave /non-slave issue..it is ghairat/baighairat issue
it is........

Ballu,

Great post on Zeb un Nissa. Have you ever wondered what the subcontinent would look like if Dara Shikoh was the Mughal Emperor at that time instead of that lowlife Aurangzeb?

i haven`t been to dewsbury....nor do i think i want to!

Re: # 197 Yes, echoboom, people in this country can be what they want want. they have the fredom to d it. This freedom allows and lets people to be christian, animist, pagan, motherload worshipping, money worshipping, hindus, buddhist etc. There is no dictat ......

Most muslims have become ghettoised becase of their choice. If you walk around glasgow, bradford, birmingham , london etc you will see that they by their own choice become that. they have built walls around them. Howelese do you explain the fact that even after living here in this country for yonks these guys cannot speak in English (forget writing), and this even after special english language classes for them. You are living in a little knee-jerk coccoon of your own making fortifide by your little insecurities.

But then I forget, your kind want this sort of a situation to flourish so that you can claim to be leaders! Leaders who want blood shed and massaging of your own egos. As Asif, said you and your forefathers came here because THIS SYSTEM PRODUCED SOMETIHNG WHICH YOUR SYSTEM COULDNOT AND CANNOT EVEN DREAM OF AFTER 60 YEARS of INDEPENDENCE. Time to stop being the frog in the well, and see the world.

naqshbandi,

.......... i am delighted by your enlightened views on the subject of the sordid veil ........... now if you can convince echoboom to take off his suicide belt and convert to your brand of islam, i might consider buying some fire crackers this shab-i-barat ................

naqhbandi

have you ever visited `islamic republic of dewsbury`, i`ve been there couple of times. honestly i`ve seen more niqabs there than in pakistan.

Morse Code:193
Second Para:

``The issue is not ...........people are allowed to be muslim ........ we allow for this and donot start meetings a...... allowed t..........allowed to flourish.

No matter how much I rant against the Cantonement & Colony Kuttaa mentality..the desire to be leashed and petted & patted lovingly just never leaves the gene-pool.

``If the Mullah is allowed to prostrate in India*
The simpleton believes Islam has been freed.............................Iqbal

*(british India)

---

Third Para

What has troubled people here is that, despite all the facilities and freedoms, muslims think of themselves as seperate from the larger community in U.K. This has resulted in them taking to killing their country people........

So is there an inner walled city and cantonements & colony dwellings in Britain? Should muslims be living only far far away from the madding crowd...like the Britto Baboons did and now the Bruno-Baboons do? Not to mix with the ``natives`` the ``aborgines`` (celts, saxons etc)?

---

Fourth Para

...``at this exclusiveness is vocalised by a verbose set of people. That this vocalisation is not rejected by the majority of the muslims, comes across as silent acquiessence of these ideas -.........``

Intellectuals & academia, your & my kind of ``elite``, are ALWAYS in a minority anywhere & they are the ones most VERBOSE & LOUD..the rest of the world is as completely Jahil, ignorant, and evil as Blair & Bush

---

Fifth Para

.....us my reading of Straw`s article, Blair`s intervention, and Reids speech is precisely this, it is a warning across the bow........

Well the muslims are not there just to learn..they are there to teach as well...and all teaching always does not come from the pen and speech. THose who have become habitual to be served by slaves & colonised minds do not easily ALLOW their own brains to be operated upon easily.....Their brains need to be numbed & not necessarily by anaesthesia.

Thanks for the info on Zeb un Nisa Begum; but don`t make the mistake of interpreting her work and poetry as anti-Islamic. Such metaphors are rife in Islamic mysticism and not mean to be against Shariat. Also, her illustrious father was a great saint-king and she was his favourite.

my bengali friend made a statement which i think applies to all immigrants:

by coming here our parents (or grand-parents) made a choice: they would accept economic wellbeing at the expense of their own culture and traditions--if not for themselves or their children, certainly for their children`s children. a comfy lifestyle for cultural and religious suicide.

Recently on the DM Islamic Channel, Huzoor Qibla Pir Sayyid Naseeruddin Naseer, gaddinasheen of Golra Sharif and great-grandson of Huzoor Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah sahib, whilst on a visit to the UK was asked by a viewer that our children are becoming increasingly westernised and what can we do. His reply was direct and candid, he said (in Urdu): Why are you complaining? You have chosen to live here and it is inevitable. Even in our countries people are becoming westernised so why do you act surpised when it happens here?`

[BTW Pir Sahib would be my candidate for the role of Consitutional Caliph of pakistan but that is another essay and another topic].

Re: --_-- post # 193:

I agree with what you`ve written 100%. i think though that even when the silent majority make their point known it is not heard; the main reason being that they have no spokespeople for them. the so called representatives like the MCB are not representative--rather they have been shown to be overwhelmingly wahabis/tablighi/ikhwanis in ideology and as such don`t represent most muslims. i think there needs to be a single muslim body which represents the muslim mainstream. the problem is that the leaders of the mainstream muslims are mostly elders from indo-pak who have v little command of english, or are embroiled in their own petty tussles about mosque committees, chairmainships etc, and not `with it`. this creates a vacuum and a problem...

PM -- that is precisely my point: the niqab--NOT the headscarf (in Britain at least, so far)--is seen as being deliberately `obstrusive, in your face, expression of islam -the `we are different from you` and we don`t give a shit` syndrome made cloth if you like.

since not wearing it to work doesn`t make one a lesser muslim i really don`t see the point of
making it a big issue. others are using this issue for political purposes--to gather votes since many middle class and working class people feel that their country is being `over-run` and their culture attacked (even though the stats don`t back them up). what people perceive is more important than what the reality is since that influences their decisions. politicians have woken up to this latent feeling--fuelled, i might add by the UKs stupid easy immigration policy of the past where any tom dick and harry (or usually abdul, jaswinder and john ndoodo!) has been able to come here and then decide not to fit in. i think that british born muslims are just feeling the fall out from this. white people think their country is being taken over by darkies and they don`t like it. since stupidities like 9/11 and 7/7, the war on iraq and afghanistan and the media`s massive coverage of mad wahabis like abu hamza have made muslims in the spotlight continuously, this anti immigration feeling is manifested as predominantly anti muslim. however in between when no islamic stuff is on the news, the british press is full of horror stories of how the poles and the eastern europeans are flooding our country and taking all the white working classes jobs!

i was speaking to my bengali friend last night and we agreed that muslims are being gently coerced into becoming culturally British; the Brits are finally doing what the French have always insisted on: if you want to be a citizen de la Republic, you must become culturally Francophile. now the English, who used to pooh-pooh this French approach and champion multiculturalism, are following suit.

having said this, 99.9% of muslims here will never leave and will do whatever is necessary to fit in and be accepted. as a teacher, i see young muslim students every day and apart from the colour of their skins or their names, in their behaviour they are virtually indistinguishable from their peers. they most certainly do not act like those who come from a muslim country!

the problem is with the tiny percentage who refuse to fit in. they are usually clueless about islam when they go to uni and end up being easy prey, for a term or two, to extremists like hizb ut tahrir (whom i would ban) and other such dickheads. these tiny few are v. vocal and get all the media coverage which leads to fall out on muslims in general.

no doubt some politicians have seen that playing up the fear of the mad moslems is a vote winner so they use it.

i`ve rambled on for a bit. my conclusion is that muslims have to accept that this is not an islamic country, that they must respect local traditions and at the same time stick up for their legitimate rights as citizens where they are equal to any one else.

Re: # 191
I know Asif will answer this question himself. But as a Briton, let me add my tuppence worth here as well.

your quote:
``a deliberately obtrusive, in-your-face expression of Muslim differentness -- is the problem``

The issue is not one of deliberate in-your-face-expression of muslimness. That has never been a problem - for example if you go around the airports you will find special services/facilities available for muslims, a fair number of cafeterias in work place do offer halal food if required, people are allowed to be muslim - they can take time off for theirprayers etc (I know this since at my place of work