Muslims ‘Unveiled’

Morse Code:193
Second Para:

``The issue is not ...........people are allowed to be muslim ........ we allow for this and donot start meetings a...... allowed t..........allowed to flourish.

No matter how much I rant against the Cantonement & Colony Kuttaa mentality..the desire to be leashed and petted & patted lovingly just never leaves the gene-pool.

``If the Mullah is allowed to prostrate in India*
The simpleton believes Islam has been freed.............................Iqbal

*(british India)

---

Third Para

What has troubled people here is that, despite all the facilities and freedoms, muslims think of themselves as seperate from the larger community in U.K. This has resulted in them taking to killing their country people........

So is there an inner walled city and cantonements & colony dwellings in Britain? Should muslims be living only far far away from the madding crowd...like the Britto Baboons did and now the Bruno-Baboons do? Not to mix with the ``natives`` the ``aborgines`` (celts, saxons etc)?

---

Fourth Para

...``at this exclusiveness is vocalised by a verbose set of people. That this vocalisation is not rejected by the majority of the muslims, comes across as silent acquiessence of these ideas -.........``

Intellectuals & academia, your & my kind of ``elite``, are ALWAYS in a minority anywhere & they are the ones most VERBOSE & LOUD..the rest of the world is as completely Jahil, ignorant, and evil as Blair & Bush

---

Fifth Para

.....us my reading of Straw`s article, Blair`s intervention, and Reids speech is precisely this, it is a warning across the bow........

Well the muslims are not there just to learn..they are there to teach as well...and all teaching always does not come from the pen and speech. THose who have become habitual to be served by slaves & colonised minds do not easily ALLOW their own brains to be operated upon easily.....Their brains need to be numbed & not necessarily by anaesthesia.

Thanks for the info on Zeb un Nisa Begum; but don`t make the mistake of interpreting her work and poetry as anti-Islamic. Such metaphors are rife in Islamic mysticism and not mean to be against Shariat. Also, her illustrious father was a great saint-king and she was his favourite.

Re: # 197 Yes, echoboom, people in this country can be what they want want. they have the fredom to d it. This freedom allows and lets people to be christian, animist, pagan, motherload worshipping, money worshipping, hindus, buddhist etc. There is no dictat ......

Most muslims have become ghettoised becase of their choice. If you walk around glasgow, bradford, birmingham , london etc you will see that they by their own choice become that. they have built walls around them. Howelese do you explain the fact that even after living here in this country for yonks these guys cannot speak in English (forget writing), and this even after special english language classes for them. You are living in a little knee-jerk coccoon of your own making fortifide by your little insecurities.

But then I forget, your kind want this sort of a situation to flourish so that you can claim to be leaders! Leaders who want blood shed and massaging of your own egos. As Asif, said you and your forefathers came here because THIS SYSTEM PRODUCED SOMETIHNG WHICH YOUR SYSTEM COULDNOT AND CANNOT EVEN DREAM OF AFTER 60 YEARS of INDEPENDENCE. Time to stop being the frog in the well, and see the world.

my bengali friend made a statement which i think applies to all immigrants:

by coming here our parents (or grand-parents) made a choice: they would accept economic wellbeing at the expense of their own culture and traditions--if not for themselves or their children, certainly for their children`s children. a comfy lifestyle for cultural and religious suicide.

Recently on the DM Islamic Channel, Huzoor Qibla Pir Sayyid Naseeruddin Naseer, gaddinasheen of Golra Sharif and great-grandson of Huzoor Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah sahib, whilst on a visit to the UK was asked by a viewer that our children are becoming increasingly westernised and what can we do. His reply was direct and candid, he said (in Urdu): Why are you complaining? You have chosen to live here and it is inevitable. Even in our countries people are becoming westernised so why do you act surpised when it happens here?`

[BTW Pir Sahib would be my candidate for the role of Consitutional Caliph of pakistan but that is another essay and another topic].

Re: --_-- post # 193:

I agree with what you`ve written 100%. i think though that even when the silent majority make their point known it is not heard; the main reason being that they have no spokespeople for them. the so called representatives like the MCB are not representative--rather they have been shown to be overwhelmingly wahabis/tablighi/ikhwanis in ideology and as such don`t represent most muslims. i think there needs to be a single muslim body which represents the muslim mainstream. the problem is that the leaders of the mainstream muslims are mostly elders from indo-pak who have v little command of english, or are embroiled in their own petty tussles about mosque committees, chairmainships etc, and not `with it`. this creates a vacuum and a problem...

PM -- that is precisely my point: the niqab--NOT the headscarf (in Britain at least, so far)--is seen as being deliberately `obstrusive, in your face, expression of islam -the `we are different from you` and we don`t give a shit` syndrome made cloth if you like.

since not wearing it to work doesn`t make one a lesser muslim i really don`t see the point of
making it a big issue. others are using this issue for political purposes--to gather votes since many middle class and working class people feel that their country is being `over-run` and their culture attacked (even though the stats don`t back them up). what people perceive is more important than what the reality is since that influences their decisions. politicians have woken up to this latent feeling--fuelled, i might add by the UKs stupid easy immigration policy of the past where any tom dick and harry (or usually abdul, jaswinder and john ndoodo!) has been able to come here and then decide not to fit in. i think that british born muslims are just feeling the fall out from this. white people think their country is being taken over by darkies and they don`t like it. since stupidities like 9/11 and 7/7, the war on iraq and afghanistan and the media`s massive coverage of mad wahabis like abu hamza have made muslims in the spotlight continuously, this anti immigration feeling is manifested as predominantly anti muslim. however in between when no islamic stuff is on the news, the british press is full of horror stories of how the poles and the eastern europeans are flooding our country and taking all the white working classes jobs!

i was speaking to my bengali friend last night and we agreed that muslims are being gently coerced into becoming culturally British; the Brits are finally doing what the French have always insisted on: if you want to be a citizen de la Republic, you must become culturally Francophile. now the English, who used to pooh-pooh this French approach and champion multiculturalism, are following suit.

having said this, 99.9% of muslims here will never leave and will do whatever is necessary to fit in and be accepted. as a teacher, i see young muslim students every day and apart from the colour of their skins or their names, in their behaviour they are virtually indistinguishable from their peers. they most certainly do not act like those who come from a muslim country!

the problem is with the tiny percentage who refuse to fit in. they are usually clueless about islam when they go to uni and end up being easy prey, for a term or two, to extremists like hizb ut tahrir (whom i would ban) and other such dickheads. these tiny few are v. vocal and get all the media coverage which leads to fall out on muslims in general.

no doubt some politicians have seen that playing up the fear of the mad moslems is a vote winner so they use it.

i`ve rambled on for a bit. my conclusion is that muslims have to accept that this is not an islamic country, that they must respect local traditions and at the same time stick up for their legitimate rights as citizens where they are equal to any one else.

ballukhan: Thanks for the informative posts on the Taliban`s reported hypocrisy back @ #148-150.

Asif, you write:
[[#175 by Naqshbandi : I don`t like Blair or his policies but the operative sentence in that article was ``[The veil] makes people feel uncomfortable``
--That is the point. whether the wearer feels so or not, if this is how it is perceived by the majority then you`ve got to do something. in the long run there will be two options: integrate or emigrate (or be terminated). ]]]

That should not be the point. Discomfort is never a good measure of justice, esp. when the discomfort caused is not physical or ``direct``. Using this reasoning, one could have, in only the recent past, outlawed any expression of, say, gayness (including statements and political debate on the matter.)

I think you`d be on firmer ground taking the stance that what echo and some others here are advocating -- a deliberately obtrusive, in-your-face expression of Muslim differentness -- is the problem. And you are better suited than any of them to comment on whether you think its a problem and an example of overkill than any of them, being a Briton yourself.

Re: # 191
I know Asif will answer this question himself. But as a Briton, let me add my tuppence worth here as well.

your quote:
``a deliberately obtrusive, in-your-face expression of Muslim differentness -- is the problem``

The issue is not one of deliberate in-your-face-expression of muslimness. That has never been a problem - for example if you go around the airports you will find special services/facilities available for muslims, a fair number of cafeterias in work place do offer halal food if required, people are allowed to be muslim - they can take time off for theirprayers etc (I know this since at my place of work we allow for this and donot start meetings around those times etc). Special Urdu and arabic pamphlets, translators etc - even for people having lived in thiscountry for more than 20 years.People are allowed to express themselves as the feel fit and are free to do what they feel and think is appropriate for themselves (short of causing actual physical harm to anybody). Walk around Bolton, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bradford, London etc you will see muslimness is not suppressed but allowed to flourish.

However, this also requires equal generosity from the muslim side. Whether this has been the case or not is something which needs thought.

What has troubled people here is that, despite all the facilities and freedoms, muslims think of themselves as seperate from the larger community in U.K. This has resulted in them taking to killing their country people in the name of some extra territorial loyalty. There are a lot of people agitated with lot of the palestinians, but you donot see them bombing the streets, but muslims have. You see a vast majority of people working and being political within the system, but you donot see them outright rejecting this system and asking for a revolution to replace it and not only that carrying out out activities which attempts to do it.
You might find people who say they are ashamed to be british, but the bottom line in the end they agree that they are british. They do not suggest that they are christian, animist r pagan first, second and last.

Again remember that this exclusiveness is vocalised by a verbose set of people. That this vocalisation is not rejected by the majority of the muslims, comes across as silent acquiessence of these ideas - this acquiessence could be a result of intellectual laziness or coersion. If it is due to coersion it is far more insidious and needs drastic and dramatic actions. If it is due to intellectual laziness, then it needs prodding to come out of its lull.

Thus my reading of Straw`s article, Blair`s intervention, and Reids speech is precisely this, it is a warning across the bows, the image coming across is not one which the majority feel comfortable with. If the intelligentia and the silent majority of muslims donot recognise this and carry on in their silent acquiessence, the result will be Asif bold statement, and I quote ``integrate or emigrate (or be terminated).``. And integration will no longer be free and will carry with it some real visible (tangible) giving up from the muslim side.

Anyway have written more than my quota for the day......

Worth repeating:

[[[[#178 by arjun2 on October 17, 2006 5:39pm PT
It`s not about the veil.. It`s about the integration... If brit-pakis were well integrated into british society this wouldn`t even be an issue. Now you have Brit-Pakis who`re killing and planning to kill a whole bunch of british and non-british citizens because of what they perceive as an injustice against people who live in far away lands but happen to share their faith. ]]]]

(T) (T)

Why should we but in the assembly pray?
Only when friends are gathered call for wine?
Lo, I have done with this hypocrisy,
And ever pray and drink the cup divine.

The fountain of my spirit has run dry,
So that in tears no more my sorrow flows,
Mute is the heart that wailed continuously,
Silent the bulbul in the garden-close.

Here, as we tread the pilgrim`s way, we find
The torch of inspiration like a fire,
Men see it not, so dull they are and blind,
They yearn not for the garments of desire.

To each was given on the Creation-day
His fitting portion, his appointed share,
Why should`st thou then demand from destiny
More joy than others have, less pain to bear?

O Makhfi, for thy counsel all have come.
Their secrets thou has kept concealed, apart,
But why should`st thou, who for their sakes art dumb,
Tell shamelessly the secrets of thy heart? [p.82]

Zeb-un-Nissa was a true sufi - not a mullah loving literalist like Aurangzeb from the darbari sufi sects..........it is pity that she does not find any mention in Pakistan`s historiography because she revolts against the idea of a strong women who is not subservient to the mullah masochism!!

................

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=22401010&ct=4

But the poems of Zeb-un-Nissa, in addition to what they share with other Sufic poetry, have a special Indian flavour of their own. She inherited the Akbar tradition of the unification of religions, and knew not only Islam, but Hin­duism and Zoroastrianism also. Her special triumph consists in that she weaves together the religious traditions and harmonizes them with Sufic practices. In some of her poems she hails the sun as the symbol of deity. Con­stantly she speaks of the mosque and the temple together or antithetically—saying that God is equally in both, or too great to be worshipped in either:—

No Muslim I,
But an idolater,
I bow before the image of my Love,
And worship her:

No Brahman I,
My sacred thread
I cast away, for round my neck I wear
Her plaited hair instead.

Sometimes she even combines the Hindu and Musulman idea:

In the mosque I seek my idol-shrine.

On the Day of Judgment we should have had much difficulty in proving that we were true believers, had we not brought with us our belovèd Kafir idol as a witness.

The glorification or adoration of the pir, or spiritual teacher, is also shown in her poems. He is the intermediary between God and man, and is sometimes symbolized as the Morning Breeze, bringing from the enclosed garden the fragrance to those, less privileged, who can only stand without the gate.

The Diwan-i-Makhfi is widely read in India, and is highly esteemed. Its verse is chanted in the ecstatic concourses which meet at festivals at the tombs of celebrated saints; so that, although her tomb has been despoiled of the splendour which befitted the resting-place of a Mogul princess, she has the immortality she perhaps would have desired. In one of her verses she says:—I am the daughter of a King, but I have taken the path of renunciation, and this is my glory, as my name Zeb-un-Nissa, being interpreted, means that I am the glory of womankind.

24/7 focus on Islamisim on Fox, CNN and BBC is a free publicity campaign of Islam. More you talk of ban on Marijuana, more marijuana seekers will you find in the streets. ;)

Regardless of the religious, social, symbolical debate on the topic of veil and my opinion that largely deviates from traditional islamic view on viel, I will like to mention that these goras want to raise this topic (and similar topics like sanctity of prophethood, respect of Quran etc.) again and again to make muslim less sensitive about their religious beliefs. And there is no need to necome less sensitive on these issues. Even if All muslims convert to Christianity/Atheism and all Barhamans embrace each and every bit of western civilization, status quo in modern world will never allow them to be equal to goras in gora eyes.


So Muslims should keep on protesting against any unwanted advice from Goras, they should keep on burning KFCs (even if it seems stupid) and keep on showing that our religious beliefs are our issue and we are more than violent when someone makes an effort to change it for his own benefits.

Not that, I want muslims to remain semi cannibels as they are today. I want them to become civilized. But civilized doesn`t mean westernised. Neither is west civilized nor more human. Mongols used to do it with sword, Goras do it using cool words like UN, democracy and Human rights.

Muslims should define their own definition of being moderate and civilized (No Musharraf, Abdullah and Karzai are needed for that). Islamic movements of rationalism provide enough material for muslims scholars to define these terms. Once they define it, progress towards becoming modern should continue keeping in mind that respect for prophethood, quran and islam remains intact during the process.

Would like to Quote Iqbal for the change of taste here:

Azadi e Afkar say hay un ki tabahi
Rakhtay nahin jo fikr o tadabbur ka saleeqa

Ho fikr agar kham to azadi e afkar
Insan ko hivan bananay ka tareeqa


and:

Pukhta afkar kahan dhoondnay jayay koi
iss zamanay ki hava rakhti hay her cheez ko kham

Madarassa aql ko azad to karta hay
Chore daita hay khayalat ko bay rabt o nizam

Murda La deeni e afkar say afrang main ishq
Aql bay rabti e afkar say mashriq main ghulam.

#158 by VRV

He`s a scholar-politician. I read his speech as prez of 1930 AIML. He`s a diff breed altogether. In India he`s limited to Sare Jahan se achcha......song, unfortunately.

Below is what he said in that speech:

``At critical moments in their history, it is Islam that has saved Muslims and not vice versa``.

(Allama Iqbal, December 1930 Presidential address All India Muslim League.)

#182 by echoboom on October 17, 2006 9:45pm PT


Congratulations!


congratulations to Mohd Yunis for rejecting islamofascists like you...