Marriage in Hiding

Marriage is a Social Contract .... not an islamic contract ...

The Author of this Article is an Illiterate person, he does know even the I of islam and going to raise objection on it. Islam is a Wisdom, and if the Author of this Article is a JAHAL then what we can do.In USA every 2nd women have illegle relationship from the age of 12.

Re: # 4

Marriage is in fact a function of culture not of religion, especially of a religion like Islam, with its `hallal` and `harram` applied even in case of human relations. Btw, are we not all the progeny of `kafirs` born out of their `harram` kafirana marriages?

Islam allows sex out of wedlock and legitimizes even the offspring from sex-slave but today muslims are the most sex-starved people on earth. Why? It is due to the paedophile mulla who uses Islam only to beat people with; interested in imposing Hadood Laws but not caring for any human rights, especially the sex-rights of the people. Even the so called moderates are also interested only in empowering the women without realising that this would make the marriage all the more costly and unattractive, leading perforce to extramarital sex relation not at all in the interest of the women.

Re: # 22

Actually i just wanted to clear that ........ the person wrote in article ....... so many gays are in islamic countries ...... but i just want to make him realize ...... that he is wrong ...... if he takes the closer look on USA ..... just only on USA ....... he will be surprized to see the result ......... that USA is the onliest biggest place for the criminal ...... regarding anything ...... either its about gays ..... lesbian ........ or rape ........ whatever ........
and beside it if you talk about islamic countries ..........

in which the person said ........ it`s difficult for the girl to marry according to her choice or may be difficult for a boy to marry according to his choice ......
then i am 100% sure that he is short of knowledge .........

in other words ...... i got ...... that the author was trying to say ..... islam is by sword .... i may be wrong ..... but this is my point of view
i would like to say about this article ........ that`s is only romour base ........ article and nothing more than it .........

hope you understand now ....

Yet another pathetic article, refusing to look at the source of the issues identified by the author. If a muslim converts to another religion, it is death in pakistan and in all islamic countries. Women have no status other than objects in pakistan, and that is why a man can marry any women, convert her to islam, and it is another proud avheivement by the muslim and islam.

Well if a woman marries another man of other religion, well it is an asset loss to islam.

Read the book, the poor souls of pakistan, and do not indulge in these pretenses of modern topic discussions by pakistanis. You have no clue of what you are talking.

M. Ali Shah {``Today, in Muslim countries - there are more sex crimes then anywhere else in the world. There is a whole gay community in every city and prostitution is at its peak. It is no secret how easily prostitutes are available in these countries. We are even shocked to find girls from very good homes working as prostitutes and no one knows about it. ``}

Dear Author,
Surely you exaggerate - neither are sex crimes very numerous in Muslim countries nor is prostitution at its peak there. There may be gay communities but they are certainly NOT what they are in the west.

I appreciate your well-written article for the topic and the various issues that you have highlighted. I do not agree with your viewpoint that somehow sex is a necessary evil and that we MUST get boys and girls married so that they can engage in procreation without fear of fornication. Whenever sex and religion are combined in one breath or one thought, religion comes out on top, slightly polluted, but sex becomes non-existent. We should separate religion from sex, and sex from everything else. While the right to copulate is a God-given force of nature, we should respect those who don`t want to take part in it or those who have found alternatives.

Sex, like other forms of human interaction, is a personal choice AND NOT AN OBLIGATION, DUTY, and OR SIN. In different cultures, people interact by shaking hands, talking, hugging, kissing, dancing, and even freely copulating. Other cultures, such as the ones wrongly labeled as ``Islamic,`` frown on shaking hands between the sexes. Other cultures, such as the Eskimo one and even traditional Japanese one, treat sex very much like food - something you would provide even to you enemy or someone condemned to die. So, let`s not pontificate about the ``evils`` of sex - I think the problem lies more with the ``evils`` of unrestricted, unabashed, and unprotected religious extremism.

A ludicrous attempt to question the lack of freedom for sexes to intermingle and have liberty to choose partners in Islamic societies, without attempting to explore why only “Muslim” women are finding themselves in this unique situation. While plain obvious where the problem lies, the writer has done utmost to sidestep any criticism of the ‘best’ religion of the world. The writer shows no attempt to liberate the oppressed of the oppressed, the Muslim woman, from the clutches of an ideology which only perpetuates her misery. One law for a male of the species another for the female.

Grow up. Think for yourself without relying on narrow dictates of dark ages.

Dear Sir,

You seem to toot the horn of religion pretty well. Although Islam is not the most tolerent religion of all time like you so put it. And by the way, Homosexuality is a common characteristic shown by almost all species on this planet. Islam is definately not tolerant of it as we both know. I don`t know if it would constitute as a sex crime. I`m sure we all know at least one homosexual. They are in fact humans too.
When people get married, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn`t. When it doesn`t you break up and find someone else. Marriage is a sacred transaction but let`s face it... it doesn`t work all the time.

Re: # 10

Injun, I would not comment on that - but common sense dictates : If someone BELIEVES in one thing, and their partner BELIEVES in something else, then they would probably not be compatible. Our beleif controls us - our perception, attitude and the whole personality. If belief does not match, people don`t match.

If you feel that your belief and the belief of your partner is exactly the same.. well.. cool.

Real love is walking in the same direction.
When the Quran was revealed, religion and belief was the essence of life. In this day and age, like I have tried to show in the article, it is not. What value does religion have today to the Hindu, Christian or Muslim? We all know there is a God.. but do we BELIEVE He is for real and active around us, and do we trust Him? Think about it. A single trauma is enough to make us lose our minds - is that belief? I will , with much shame , also admit that the Muslims that impressed Hindus to the extent that Hindus built temples for them, do not exist anymore. Those hindus learnt and practiced the wisdom while the muslims were too busy playing chess and observing mujras... The Brahmin can teach you a lot about your own belief!

Caliph Ali said: Two people are a problem for any society, the educated that do not believe in God and the ignorant who are too religious.

So, you must grow to a higher level of being to be able to debate on religion differences. For now, do you see any difference between people, regardless of religion? I can sit with a Jew, Christian and Hindu and we would all talk about the SAME things. We will not teach eachother the wisdom of God, but the strategy of making money, acquiring technology and combatting terrorism...lol.

This verse talks about why its better for people of similer beliefs to marry eachother. The likelihood of dispute would be minimal. Figure it out.

I find this article weird for its name and the theme. There were some good points as well, but the fact that someone will have to stoop to the level of ``marriage in hiding`` is simply awkward, idiotic and stupid. Marriage is a bond, committment or relationship between two people. Why the hell should they care for the rest of the world? If one is a teen-ager with no worldy exposure, that`s a different story. But adults should be able to exercise their born rights. Otherwise, I feel real bad for the man or the woman who has to lead such a hypocritical life.

Ironically, in the west, some of the ``tradtional`` muslim women who are focused on finding a ``muslim`` guy end up going back to their native countries to marry men who neither complement them educationally nor financially. Yes, they are muslims. I do not know if it means anything. You are not marrying anyone for his/her religion. That`s nonsense. I can understand that if one is in love, then one may ignore quite a few things (that itself is a difficult undertaking). But how can anyone fall in love meeting someone for the 1st time in completely different surroundings (not close to home) is beyond my comprehension. Still, it`s a very distasteful concept. I know of a few women who have taken the step by being involved in long distance relationships and taking the plunge. Some have hardly met their spouses once or twice. That`s simply sick. I guess to each his or her own.

I think Muslimas who are finding it difficult to get good Muslim husbands should advertise in the Taliban`s on-line dating service:

http://www.putrid.com/images/singles.jpg

On the other hand, THAT might be their actual problem!

Ref injun #17

[An interesting article about Hindu-Muslim marriages is this.]

What is the problem? The article says educated middle-class Muslimas can`t find husbands. Why not? I am sure slots such as Bibi #2 thru Bibi #4 are still available though Bibi #1 might be taken.

[...If we look at the number of single women in our societies, it is alarming. These women are unable to marry because their parents will not allow them to marry....]

Does this mean that Hamidm`s daughters might end up marrying horrible hindoos?

Its either that or Zeemax/Urstruly types. Ouch!! :-)

when was marraige ever `blissfull` just look at our parents generation, most of them made do, cause they had to, not cause they wanted to, and if they wanted to get out they could not... so both resigned themselves to their kismet...

things are changing now, people marry becuase they are in love with each other, more and more people are marrying out of cast etc, because they want to, my Bhabhi is from a diff cast, but my bro is happy and she is a very cool person and respects our parents... so things are beginning to change and so are people... its not all gloom and doom...

i think if anything many marraiges are becoming `blissful` becasue people actually want them, rather than just doing it for the sake of it...

And what does Islam or the author say about two of my friends who are Muslim women and have married Hindu men? (neither of the couples are religious, but both women have more sway about religion and stuff) The kids if anything will be brought up more Muslim than Hindu!

Does this not defeat the purpose of why Muslim women shouldn`t marry diff religions?

smartsyco

Kuchh samajh mein nahi aayaa aapne kya farmaya.

Good articale and makes a lot of sense. The thing is these ME societies are undergoing a BIG change. The generation gap is perhaps at peak here. First of all , they underwent to a process that made them rich without any hardwork or planning. They sarted pampering their people ( I am talking about oil based monacrhist eceonmies ) or otherwise its slow poisionning. What I have observed is that people are getting richer materially but becoming poorer of the poorest spiritualy and mentally. I do know a single Arab colleague or acquintance who is not leading a double standard as it is mentioned by the writer. Extra marital affairs are there and these leads to hypocracy. They do not want to loose their honur while sitting with family and diwaniays and at the same time have their private clubs and apartmets meant for the other activities. Mostly they have women from less rich Arab countries, poor girls who are jobians and are being grined in the process. So when men are out with other women, this is but natural for their women to lead a double standard lives. Now the younger generation with their eyes dazzled by the most fercious attack of Western culture doubled by the wealth and being ignored by the parents are heading nowhere. Socitiey is becoming suolless.

Re: # 18

but i dont think so it is applicable everywhere now ....... lots of love marriages are happening in pakistan ....... cannt say about india but its happening in pakistan

though a good written but still i disagree ...... the person who wrote the article .... i don`t think so has done the close obversation or may be short of information ...... according to my information ........ gays and lesbians communities are in USA ..... i am only talking about USA .... not about euorope so be clear ....... what did i say .............
do mind to do your home work before you say like this .......... there are some communities growing in middle east as well as in sub continent .....
but the person who wrote the article i think forgot to consider dubai as the part of middle east or may be have never been there ..........
according to me the article was submission of different romours which he listened from here and there .........
and islam is very much clear about women choice regarding marriage and other things which come to women life ...... there is no doubt which islam has left ...... well regarding the islamic laws and in different islamic countries .............. you have to watch kuwait ..... egypt ..... turkey ......... and there are many islamic countries which can be quoted ..... and pakistan another islamic state which is turnning into secular state ........ embarassing for the true followers ....... anywayz come back to the point ......
for me that was totally a non-sense .... i am sorry

touchy ...

i think it is truly applicable in every muslim society.

earlier i use to think it mostly prevelent in indo/paki culture of parents forcing there choice in marrige but it seems like it happens everywhere ..

An interesting article about Hindu-Muslim marriages is this.

#14

Is she?? I am not very sure.

But anyway ,Hindu/Sikh doesnt make much difference particularly to Muslims..

Kulharee @4
``There is no such thing as an ‘illegitimate’ child,..`` you said.
You have made a profound statement of truth in above.
Our religious bigotry and punishment is visited on the child that is borne according to the fixed laws of nature and not on the couple that is alleged to have broken the societal/ religious laws of the community they are part of.
We must change this cultural cringe and remove the false stigma on the child for it to integrate in its society. It would be a paradigm shift. Well done.
Rashid

#13 by injun

.....Abu Salem--all have hindu wives.

Abu Salem`s wife, Monica Bedi is a Sikh, I think.

#10

[[Even if the spouse worships idols, so what? Who are others to determine the validity of the marriage? ]]

A Muslim will not go beyond the tenets of Koran. When marriage with an idolator is not allowed in Koran, it is out of question atleast for a common muslim.

#12

Muslim men have always been marrying Hindu women-Shahrukh Khan, Fardeen Khan, Aamir Khan, Omar Abdullah, Salman Rashdie, Mohd.Azzahruddin, Abu Salem--all have hindu wives.

The question is the other way round--Hindu men marrying muslim women. Why it is not allowed whereas Islam, per se, does not prohibit such a marriage.

I think Muslim men should marry Hindu women if they want a good wife. Where else are you going to find a woman who worships the phallus? ;)

# 10,

Even if the spouse worships idols, so what? Who are others to determine the validity of the marriage?

Mr.Shah,

Since you have raised this issue, can you comment on the following :-

The verse governing the marriage of a muslim man or a muslim woman to other-than-muslim is the following(letters in bold are mine) :-

The Cow

[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

Surely, the emphasis here is on Idolators and not Unbelievers.

Now my point is that a Hindu cannot marry a muslim girl because he falls under the category of Idolator and therefore to marry a muslim girl he has to convert to Islam.

But the question here is whether a Hindu really an Idolator??

Pure Hinduism is silent on idolatory ,that is ,it is neither recommended nor prohibited. Hinduism is said to have acquired idolatory from other cultures and it has now been widely accepted because it is a simpler form of worship.

In its pure form, a Hindu has to make comunion with God through His rememberance through the word ``OM``. That is to say that in pure Hinduism, God does not even have a name let alone image or idol.

So a Hindu cannot be really termed as idolator, though he practices idolatory for simplicity. An individual Hindu can shun idolatory at any time.

Now my question :- Does that qualifies a Hindu to marry a muslim girl??

Interesting read.

Of course the things cannot change overnight, but serious discussions on debatable issues are always desirable.

Good job done.

Weird theme and equally weird article.

In future, Chowk should impose a policy on its writers to limit their content to 2 paragraphs. Let the interactors work on the rest of the theme, drift, options, and discourses under INTERACT Section.

On a super serious note: In this day and age, a female scientist has to look up to her parents to approve her marriage. How embarassing for the parents (for not raising an independent woman who could make her own decisions) and for the woman (for listening to her parents and letting them dictate her life - very silly! )!!!

``and let`s not forget that jesus himself was the illegimate son of god ............``(Hamidm)

man you are impossible.....:))))

Hmmm. You`ve raised some complicated issues here. You say that marriage is ``not as simple as it used to be``, and then you suggest that love marriage may be the solution to all these problems. I see a slight paradox here, since I don`t think that love marriages were any more popular in Islamic societies when marriages were simple and blissful. So, you may want to give some more thought to the causes of the issues that you`ve raised and discussed, and present deeper analyses of the potential solutions (if they exist)...

``Cheating couples would also not exist if everyone got to marry the person of their choice``.

And if we`re good boys and girls, Santa would bring lots and lots of toys for us, and we`ll all live happily ever after:)


``Today, in muslim countries - there are more sex crimes then anywhere else in the world. There is a whole gay community in every city``

Pardon my ignorance, but is it implied here that being gay is a ``sex crime``?

Re: # 2

urstruly,

......... if `legitimate` children grow up to be suiciders and homiciders or, god forbid, turn out to be like you or echoboom, where is the virtue ? .......... and let`s not forget that jesus himself was the illegimate son of god ............

The reason this crap goes on in Islamic countries is because there are not enough opportunities for sexes to intermingle. Getting laid is important for mental and spiritual development. Sex was not meant to be disrespected, but enjoyed and treasured. There is no such thing as an ‘illegitimate’ child, as a child outside of marriage comes out of the same place, and same mechanism is involved in making one just as a child inside of marriage. Where’s the difference? Only in mind.

And there’s nothing wrong with not being married. If one cannot find a match, it is better to live by oneself than to be married to a total jerk.

`` In the Islamic world, there should be only one discrimination when it comes to marriage. A muslim female cannot marry a non- muslim man and a Muslim man can marry any muslim, christian or jewish woman. Who decides who wants to marry who? The ones getting married and no one else.``

so what else is new in the marriage world of Muslim male chauvinist pigs -- they can marry whoever they want wherever they want -- but the women are stuck with the home grown petulant peurile pigs.

.....of course bibi the Muslim woman is as good or even better than the Muslim male -- she must have the same choices the the Muslim males has-- and must have the right to exercise her choices in picking her life long mate EXACTLY the same way the Muslim male has. Period.

So to your question -- ``Who decides who wants to marry who?`` -- not Amma Jan nor Abba jan -- not Bhai Jan nor Apa Jan -- not Chucha Jan nor Chuchee Jan -- not MamooN Jan nor Mamanee Jan -- not Dada Jan nor Dadee Jan -- not Nana Jan nor Naanee Jan -- and by far not the family Booaa or the family Baba Jan...

....of course ONLY -- ``The ones getting married and no one else.``

Very nice gentle but firm piece of writing -- all power to you bibi -- take off your slavish collar of Hijab -- throw it on the maulvi face -- stand tall shoulder to shoulder in equality -- never put up with a domineering Muslim male chauvinist pig -- as a good Muslima shun him like you would shun a bad khanjir.

And don`t be afraid to fall in love -- `BEFORE` -- not `AFTER` -- you marry your love.

I think Islamic injunctions are quite clear about marriage with people of book; if one is to remain Muslim and give birth to legitimate children, then what is the point writing or reading these articles or get into an activism in this regard. I don`t think we have much of the choice here. We have to observe discipline and constraint.

Interesting read. I understand from your profile that you are from Pakistan, yet you focus on the middle east?

Also, are the stories you narrate factual? Just curious. I am sure there would be similar tales.