Jihad and Chicken Pox

Re: # 44
<>>
Is this is what is taught in the schools of pakistan? It was not India but Pakistan who sent kabayili Pathans and Afgans to Kashmir in 1947. The king of Kashmir Harisingh had actually decided to remain independent but due to the Pakistani attack he requested Indian prime minister and the home minister to help him from the aggression. Pakistan has failed itself and its founder Mr. Jinnah who had dreamed of a nation which would be a modern democratic nation. The two nation theory saw its own failure during the formation of Bangladesh. Can you explain if Pakistan is a muslim country why Balluch do not want to remain in Pakistan or why moments like Jiye Sindh thrieve?

A well narated story however I would highlight some points.

1. Jihad is orginated from Arabic term ``Jahad`` meaning strugle, in Islamic tradition Jihad is the strugle against any kind of exploitation & supression. In this way American Blacks are Jihasdis,
and Indians freedom fighters of 1857 were jihadis, Gandhi & Washington were also Jihadis. So its not Jihaad that has to be condemned it is its wrong application and more importantly it is the circumstances that lead to this wrong applicatin that has to be condemned.

2. We should not forget the history of dispute, Kashmir was occupied by indian troops by force and later it was decided in UNO to resolve the issue through ``choice`` of Kshmiri People. Unfortunately it never happened and poor Kashmirs waiting so long had ultimately decided to chose the weapon over ballet. Common Pakistani a poor victom of illitracy and poverty decided to join the holy war.

3. We Pakistanis r very open minded and express wat we feel right and just, we expect the same from our neighbors, so we would like to hear the confession of some Indian millitary officer thanking GOD for not sending him to the playfield where he has to open fire to unarmrd civilians and repe the innocent women.

Like Khalid Bahee said the world is beautiful, so condemn all those who make it a hell for others forcing them to left their loved ones only to die in alien land

Very good article.It is nice to learn that even in Pakistan there are people who think the other way.Honestly I use to think that every Pakistani is dogmatic and can never think rationally and can not respect human values when it comes to religion. Khalid bhai keep writing.

What an irony; the people who were most ardent supporters of the Pak movement, i.e., the Muslims of the muslim minority provinces of India and the Bengalies, are now out of Pakistan, and the paki jehadies are dying for the `disputed territory` by calling it the jugular vein (Shahrag).

As for the jihadies being considered to be easy targets I don`t agree. The Indian soldiers are perhaps the easier targets as usually the soldiers are in a gorilla war.

very nicely written, and for someone like me with no first hand experience of the social network that goes into something like jihad, it provided an interesting insight.
for us in india jihadi`s are stupid fanatics who either get brainwashed into it or do it out of some economic consideration, and in the political jargon of either side the-ones who term jihadis as terrorists and the ones who call them martyrs-the human element gets lost.

Re: # 39

Pl read the last section as :

HD,

Jehad had become a milch cow/golden goose for Pakistan. I wrote abt this theory long back in other sites. If Pak ever thinks that Islam is more important than Dollars then they wud say eff off to Amrika.

Since they dont think that way, we can say with ease that Pakistan`s policy vis-a-vis the US is clean debauchery (strong words but true).

i/o

HD,

Jehad had become a milch cow/golden goose for Pakistan. I wrote abt this theory long back in other sites. If Pak ever thinks that Islam is more important than Dollars then they wud say eff of Amrika. Since they dont think that way we can say with ease that Pakistan`s policy vis-a-vis the US is clean debauchery (strong word but true).

Khaled,

U are in a different league altogether. This is how:

>>>I thank my parents for the love of letters they cultivated in me; love of letters, which taught me to think clearly and without prejudices. I thank my wife, in whose love I found that this world is a beautiful place and will remain so if we keep loving and respecting our women. <<<

Every word is golden.......may ur kinda people thrive.

Manas,

Thanks,

BJ,

Enliven the fireworks (wink wink).

HD,

Jehad had become a milch cow/golden goose for Pakistan. I wrote abt this theory long back in other sites. If Pak ever thinks that Islam is more important than Dollars then they wud say eff of Amrika. Since they dont think that way we can say with ease that Pakistan`s policy vis-a-vis the US is clean debauchery (strong word but true).

Author, a nice, clean, honest, and concise account of an important experience from your childhood! Good effort. Do keep writing – hopefully with the positive effect of building up goodwill.

#36 by masanamuthu on October 28
``India is not Russia and Kashmir is not Afghanistan..``.
Very true. Thankfully jihad is now a global problem. With so many minds working on it, some solution will hopefully come thru soon.
(At work a colleague suggested putting all terrorists into a coma (Robin Cook novel) and extracting body parts as required to heal other humans, as a payback for their murderous intentions. Couldn`t counter the macabre logic.)

From the pak military pov, I think the jihad strategy is not completely devoid of use.
A low cost proxy war, with little chance of escalation, is just what they need to get a measure of payback for bangladesh and siachin.


Fair enough.. Pak`s army`s cost is low .. like providing safe routes for brainwashed jihadis like Khalid Bhatti`s friend.. and funding `jihad manuals` (actually they have to do nothing new..just print the relevant verses of Quran and the Hadiths.. ) and show some videos of Muslims being abused in India..

But I doubt the effectiveness of such strategies... I don`t see any improvement on ground in favour of Pakistan since 1948.. Jihad is probably the worst of all strategies.. India is not Russia and Kashmir is not Afghanistan..

#34 by masanamuthuVRV:

From the pak military pov, I think the jihad strategy is not completely devoid of use.
A low cost proxy war, with little chance of escalation, is just what they need to get a measure of payback for bangladesh and siachin.
Also, according to mushy, an occasioanal al-queda capture nets them a cool 10 million or so. Why kill a cash cow like that? Create a terrorist, then help catch him. Like those anti-virus software companies!

I don`t see the jihad stopping, unless india opts for something drastic like shutting down their water thru baghlier, etc.

VRV:

Thanks for your comment.. I try not to indulge in unproductive fights.. No, I`m not wary of anyone.. I do read the comments for fun..

HD:
I am not complaining about the high number of soldiers in the Indian border.. Just wanted to point out why the jihad strategy is useless.. As long as there are youngsters in India lining up to volunteer for the army, India can afford losing 1000 soldiers per year.. that doesn`t even amount to one person per village in India..

#31 masanamuthu
``From newspaper reports India has around 700000 soldiers in Kashmir``

Thats a high number.
But on second thought there`s a 800 mile (km?) border with pak and some more with china.
Does anyone have the figures for army deployment in kashmir prior to 1989?
Also, what is the pak army deployment strength in pok?

These numbers would put the 700k soldiers in perspective. If pak has say 300k soldiers in pok and china has say 200k soldiers in aksai, then 700k is definitely not overkill, considering the cross-border insurgency.

Manas,

Why aren`t u coming very often? Wary of some racist-Indians?

I read ur ol posts. Pl be regular.

VRV

Is this for real??..

lucky that you escaped.. people need to seriously rethink their strategies.. losing so many youngsters, Pakistan is no way closer to achieving any of the objectives in Kashmir.. The so called `jihadis` are used as fodder and provide shooting practice for Indian soldiers in Kashmir.

From newspaper reports India has around 700000 soldiers in Kashmir, and that works upto 1 in 10 of the population.. Even though India would have lost around 10-15000 soldiers, India can easily afford young soldiers with its demographics. Maybe the same thing works for Pakistan too. But atleast Indian soldiers get the required training / equipment / support from the government and carry the official card and pride.. In Pakistan instead of sending the army soldiers, they brainwash young folks in jihad and send them to Kashmir..

#28

[Khalid miaN you are not only a champion debater -- but a champion writer as well who represents a real normal kinder gentler Pakistan..]

Thanks for liking the peice, but please don`t tell me what I am not. As they say in persian ``man aanam kah man daanum`.

Re: # 27
C`mon Ranjit, there are people like Hoodboy and Feroz K who have written about other things as have Mohammed Gill etc. Chowk is just one face of Indians and Pakistanis.

Jihadism is a cancer that is eating the fabric of a NORMAL Pakistani society -- it is Pakistan`s own worst enemy -- not India`s.

the title of the articole made me feel that it was rather a flippant column -- it made me take this long to come to a very honest, great poignant very well written story -- but better late than never -- life with children wife and family is the real paradise on this earth -- and Jihadism a real HELL.

this ``aap beetee`` also negates the spurious claims of that crypto Jihadist Mushrraf that the self destructing Kashmiri Jihadism is purely local -- not exported from Pakistan.

Khalid miaN you are not only a champion debater -- but a champion writer as well who represents a real normal kinder gentler Pakistan -- great piece.

and by the way Delhiwala sahib ji -- it was not the fault of either the Jama Masjid or of the delicious fish you ate there -- that gave YOU the Chicken pox....and saved you......from your jihad........you were messing with someone else who had the Chicken pox......:)

Re:avkrishna#22

[...What you hear here is either from left wing minority appeasing Commie ba$tards or from naive moderates (where I suspect Ranjit belongs to) ....]

Krishna, I am a secular nationalist. I am ultra right wing in my economics and want India to become an economic superpower based on free markets. What I dont support is bringing religion into politics e.g. hidutva. That weakens India by making Indians fight with each other and dissipates our energy. I want to see all Indians united with a common goal of making it a great nation - strong, powerful, united and rich.

Just look at how religion in politics has literally ruined Pakistan and has taken it to a point of no return. It has twisted the people`s minds to such an extent that young people are rushing towards death via jihad and ordinary people like IB are hero-worshipping them. A culture of death permeates Pakistani psyche.

I have been visiting Chowk for a long time. I have not seen a single article from a Pakistani on economics and development of Pakistan. Every article is about Jihad, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Mullah, Islam, Terrorism, Veil and so forth. That is a reflection on the priorities of Pakistani people and the direction that country is headed. I absolutely do not want India to go that route.

#24 burpy bhattis sab clearly chose this life over the next.

#24

[What I`d like to know from krbhatti-saab is whether you believe that jihad is wrong? or that it is justified..]

Please read interact #21.

The title and intro leads one to believe that it`s a funny piece so I was a little taken aback by the underlying pathos. Honestly written piece but the grammar is annoying.

What I`d like to know from krbhatti-saab is whether you believe that jihad is wrong? or that it is justified, but you`re only glad you didn`t participate in it because you might have died early and not had the chance to enjoy the love of a good woman or the joys of fatherhood?

krbhatti wrote:
``I do not beleive in races. Is there anyone who is pathan or rajput or jatt by his own choice. One cannot and should not claim any special place by the family in which one is born, because he/she does not have a say in this. Or are there any people who have written letter to their parents that they may be allowed to be born in their family. ``

Difficult to argue with that!

Latest research says all humans came out of africa. So i guess if we go back far enough, we`re all `blacks`. But problem is no one WANTS to go back that much...or be a black (heaven forbid :)).
We`re happy going back just a few hundred years (sikhs, muslims) or a few thousand (hindu,buddhist)

Name of the book escapes me right now. Read it about an year ago. European researcher did DNA analysis of every group in the world. Intersting thing is, of several tribes in africa only a couple migrated out...and all current `races` arose from these few. This is proved beyond doubt.
But there are several unique races still in africa who have genetic comp not found in other humans over the world i.e those who did not migrate out.

Re: # 16

``While I do not support Fundoo Pakistanis but you right winger Hindus are in the same league. ````

Rest assured, if there`s any one in India who respect Sikhs for their `last stand`, it`s the right wing Hindus. It is from Sikhs that Hindus learned how to treat the foreign forces..

What you hear here is either from left wing minority appeasing Commie ba$tards or from naive moderates (where I suspect Ranjit belongs to)

Rgds,
Avkrishna

#18 & #19

Well dear I don`t know what to tell you, but the theme of article is not who is right or wrong on kashmir issue.
Firslty, it is not right to take advantage of kids or any civilian, because then why we have armed forces. Secondaly, as far as I understand, it is right to fight against foreign oppression, but this choice belongs to the people who are oppressed. Thirdly, it is wrong to let armed people across the border, if you are not at war. If you want to confront indian occupation militarily, let the head of state, whoever he may be, decide in accordance with the norms of international law and declare open war. In case of open war, if I am against such decision, I will express it openly but at the same time I will be in forefront of this war with all my body and soul.

Re:IB#18

[..its people like Waheed who has kept the struggle for Kashmir alive -...]

Please send them over. Our military needs target practice. Its a pleasure to mow down filthy bearded jihadis like `gajar muli`. With the LOC fencing, most of them are dying on the LOC itself like cattle.

its so easy to be selfish ! so easy ...

` had met only one Rasheed, and I only know only one victim of his Jihadi Islam. God knows how many other Waheeds have paid with there lives, and are still paying? #

what nonsense ! so you are trying to say that Waheed was/is a victim ? its people like Waheed(s) whom our nation is so proud off ! its people like Waheed who has kept the struggle for Kashmir alive - these guys are no terrorists as they are not fighting against civilians but Indian Military in Kashmir -

unfortunately , people on chowk are burgers and would sell everything they have for a US passport!

Re:delhiwala#16

Sat Sri Akal Paji!! Calm down, aap to bura maan gaye. My apologies!!

Did you see the smiley in my posting? If not, here it is cut&pasted - ``a group of people who have a militaristic streak and a reputation for foolish behavior. :-)...``

I have typically seen Sardars make the most outrageous Sardar jokes. So dont make this some religious thingy. Its good natured fun and feel free to call us baniyas. By the way, I have heard Paki punjoos refer to Pathans as ``Akhrots``

Screw You A$$hole for making fun of Sikhs.

You are a disgusting, pathetic anti-Sikh lowlife for uttering such words.

Is this not Stereotyping or What?

Are all Sikhs Foolish?
Why are there Anti Sikh Jokes? Have you analysed that or researched this issue from your couch?

This Anti-Sikh tirade started happening in North India after Independence during Nehru`s rule. Sikhs who were in important positions were made to change their ways. Hindus needed to break the Sikhs resolve and this was one significant move.
Indian Muslims contributed to this singling out of Sikhs by venting their frustrations of Partition. Sikhs were known to have attacked Mughal Camps at high noon, where 5 Sikhs would attack hundreds of Mughals and embrace sure death, hence Muslims of Delhi started this tirade that at noon Sikhs go crazy(or dare devil) so run away from them at that time......

Was there any Anti-Sikh Joke prior to 1947, I have not heard of it. Howcome a community that is Fourth Largest Religion in the world(there are more Sikhs than there are Jews in the World) is branded foolish by the majority population of India.
Is there any objective analysis of this rhetoric?
Are MM Singh and JJ Singh also fools? Is India led by fools?
By the same logic, Jatt, Rajput population like Cheemas, Gills, Syals, Dhillons, Bhattis, Chauhans and zillion of other castes shared across border, are they all foolish?

If the answer would be that by becoming Sikhs these groups became Foolish, then you are attacking a religion and that makes you a bigot......

Frankly, in my life I have seen more foolish Non Sikhs than Sikhs. It is inbred hatred and desire to shoot from the couch at anything that does not fit in your scheme or is not aligned to what you think is wrong.

5 Lakh Sikhs have ruled 50 Lakh population of North India from the borders of Afghanistan to banks of Ganga. Your ancesstors must be really weak to fall for fools as rulers.

While I do not support Fundoo Pakistanis but you right winger Hindus are in the same league.

I Cannt Understand the idea behind your Article ..... what`s your message or what do you want to tell people ...... whether jihad is good under the circumstances which favour jihad or should it be done in every circumstances or any kind of circumstances doesn`t matter ..... people do help me to get to know what did he write ...... or wanted to write

#12

Dear Ranjit,

[Note that Rasheed did not put his own miserable neck on the line. Perhaps he is still recruiting from the comforts of his home.]

He got killed also in final showdown in Khost. Khost was the last stronghold of Afghan Communist government that fell.

[I find it amazing that people with an iota of IQ fall for this crap.]

With all due respect such words are very easy to utter sitting on the sofas of your drawing room. But what if someone does not have any source of knowing what is going on, except the national television that starts with news of Jihad and closes its news program with the same. I bet if you are exposed to such constant stream of such exposure, you will think on the same lines that are fed into your mind. Ask north korean, what they think of capitalism. I have met some north korean government contractors in gulf, who provide labour here. They avoid such questions, even if pressed. But I bet they think on the same lines of thoughts that is fed by north korean media back home. Irony is that they do not seem to have any objection in providing a capitalist economy of gulf with their labour.

On the side note, you will forget the poverty of sub continent, if you see these north koreans. The payment of labour services go to contractors, who are working for north korean government, and the labour is again left dependent on contractor`s mercy. Once I asked one indian labour foreman to accompany me to the labour camp of koreans, and he refused to go their by telling me, `saab bohat ghaleez log hain`. The meaning of what he said dawned upon me when I entered their labour camp. Except that they were relatively healthy, they were filthy and i say this with sadness and without any prejudice.

Mr. Ranjit, when a human being is made to become like this mentally or physically, then I don`t think your normal criteria of judging others by so called IQ applies anymore.

Cheers

Re:krbhatti#11

[..I do not know what do you mean by this racial remark....]

Rajputs and Pathans are traditional adversaries. Everyone knows that. Nothing racial in that statement.

Also, just like we have Sikhs in India, you have Pathans in Pakistan - a group of people who have a militaristic streak and a reputation for foolish behavior. :-) Now please dont tell me you have never enjoyed a Sardar joke, racial as it may be!!

[..I had met only one Rasheed, and I only know only one victim of his Jihadi Islam..]

Note that Rasheed did not put his own miserable neck on the line. Perhaps he is still recruiting from the comforts of his home.

I find it amazing that people with an iota of IQ fall for this crap. When I was young in Delhi, my interests were in getting into IIT, going to the US, making tons of money, partying and hopefully getting a girlfriend some day. Who the hell would want to waste their lives killing others or getting themselves killed, that too over something totaly absurd like religion? For me religion was nothing more than some occasional useless mumbo jumbo with a couple of festivals where I could ogle at the nicely dressed girls. I guess, this is the difference between India and Pakistan.

My Pak friends tell me that the upper classes in Pakistan are exactly like that as well. Its only the middle and lower class youngsters who are brainwashed into fighting over religion. I guess, it is natural selection at work!! There is too much population in our part of the world.

#9
[Bhatti Sahib - I am surprised that a Rajput would trust and listen to a Pathan of all people.]

Pathans were and still are among my best friends. I do not know what do you mean by this racial remark. Further, I do not beleive in races. Is there anyone who is pathan or rajput or jatt by his own choice. One cannot and should not claim any special place by the family in which one is born, because he/she does not have a say in this. Or are there any people who have written letter to their parents that they may be allowed to be born in their family.

#10
[krbahtti sahib, if you are new here, you are truly a breath fo fresh air. The fear is that you too will soon end up ``hating the Indians`` ...]

Dear kaalchakra,

I am an egalitarian. Don`t worry, if time comes, I will hate everyone with same vigour without any favourtism.

ijaz_gul, ballukhan

Well, the question is often asked how one can effectively defeat jihadism since it has such obvious and enormous strengths as a strategy of total and endless war against the enemy, and is almost costless to initiate, manage, and sustain. The trick is to proactively help it self-destruct and destroy its own infrastructure. That is, to turn Jihad on its head.

---

krbahtti sahib, if you are new here, you are truly a breath fo fresh air. The fear is that you too will soon end up ``hating the Indians`` more than ever and believing in the wisdom of sending young people to do jihad against them. Time spent on Chowk seems to have that effect. Either way, welcome and best wishes. :)

Bhatti Sahib - I am surprised that a Rajput would trust and listen to a Pathan of all people. Despite your potential folly, you were fortunate that Mata took pity on you, in time.

I infer it was something that happened 13-15 years ago and by that account you are now in your late 20s or early thirtees. The happiness that lits up the face of your parents and her parentson the sight of your child is something snatched away by the Holy War Syndrome from so many: though its hardly a syndrome but more a trend that swept the youth of Pakistan in the 80s: when you were in D I Khan and where your Father was posted.

Your introduction has out of place spice: suffice to say you were growing up with your own ideas. Like all youngster, there was a rebel in you: if not for challenging but for exploring new things. Thank your stars that sickness led you away.

Many a family in Pakistan have lost young ones to this movement that has ended in nothingness. When the history of Pakistan and Kashmir is re written by nuetrals, this episode will appear a la Bay of Pigs. It was a useless, foolhardy and fruitless adventure pursued on the model of Afghan War, but by much lesser King Makers. It met the doom it deserved, but the aftershocks will continue to haunt world over.

The threat it poses is floating and transcends borders. The mood came from The Salafs and Wahabis and like an octopus, entangled the gutsy, idle, disillusioned and drifters. The end has yet to be seen.

Such contritions if not fabricated provide a good release of emotions about what happened.

Cheerios

#1
dear kulharee,

He is dead, and not coming back. I am still in touch with his younger brother.

#2
Thanks


#3

Yes you are right. Editing would have helped a lot. Actually i wrote it this for my own consumption. While exploring chowk`s contribution page (I am still relatively new on chowk), I could not help myself and submitted this one without going through this. Nowadays, for me the time between committing a folly and realizing it has been reduced to 25 minutes from many hours in the past, so i realized after 25 minutes what i have done, but as they say `teer kaman say nikal chuka thaa`.

But yes you are right. It could have been much better.

``I had met only one Rasheed, and I only know only one victim of his Jihadi Islam. God knows how many other Waheeds have paid with there lives, and are still paying? ``

This nonsense was a creation of General Zia and his mullahs. An entire generation of Pakistanis have been damaged psychologically and now Pakistan is suffering because of their tolerance of the occupying Army Jernails....................

It is time they did something to undo the damage!!

Re: # 4

Yes brother. They were all over my body. I spent next two weeks in chaddi banyan only. But thank God, no permenant marks were left.

Bhattisahib:
Good story.
Pardon my question; but did you get chickenpox on that hard part on your thighs also?

When I was in my tenth jamat I also got ChickenPox with all my cousins, and incidently that was after I ate Fried Fish from Jama Masjid area.

My Dhobi refused to take our clothes and I had to sleep in my room locked, as all our nauakrs ran off...I did scratch one pock and I still have a very small patch now hidden under my beard.....

Nice write up & easy flow of narrative. A bit of editing wud have helped.
U wudnt have gone anyway since u dont seem 2 have had the requisite passion.

bhattisahib, you seem to be an expert at missing the boat as well as planes.
god acts in mysterious ways, dont listen to kulharee..it was not your dad. but get your kid vaccinated against as many of these viruses anyways..its ironical that you came down with pox virus but were saved from the jihadi one.

Dear Khalid,

Waheed is a pretty common name for Jihadis, may be your Waheed is still alive and fighting. Don’t give up hope.

What saved your ass was not chicken pox, but your Dad. The minute you told him your plans of going for Jihad, he watched every single move of yours (like any responsible parent will do) until that hard thing between your thighs became tamed, and you stopped thinking with it. Thank your parents. Congratulations and good luck with raising a child.