Pakistan's Afghan Policy
Aparna Pande October 24, 2006
#412 Posted by zeemax on October 28, 2006 11:44:38 pm
#405 by krishna_abcd / #406 by bjkumar
Gentlemen,
Either you are genuinely short on `facts`, or you purposely ignore these just for the sake of arguing your stated positions i.e. anti-pak/anti-Islam. That is not fair. Of-course you know well what happened immediately after 9/11 ... don`t you? Well let me refresh your memory in the sequence of events leading to rout of Taliban:
1) Usama denies involvement.
2) US demands handover of Usama.
2) Omar says will carry out own investigation and if guilty will hand-over.
3) Us declines and threatens attack.
4) Omar says willing to hand over to neutral country and international tribunal but not US.
5) Us declines and threatens attack.
6) Intense negotiations take place between Talibs/Pak.
7) Omar doesn`t yield and insists he will only hand over Usama if justice is guaranteed.
8) Us threatens attack.
9) Umar says eff you.
10) US threatens Pak, attack begins with Pak support, and Taliban abandon power!
In the above sequence, it is clear all Omar had to do to remain in power, was just to hand over Usama who was in no position to resist with a few hundred Arab fighters. Umar chose not to do that for the reason he explained in #323 that it was not a question of Usama, it was a question of Islam itself. You must also keep in mind that the Unocal pipeline deal was in the final stages at the time promising huge revenues for Taliban.
Taliban never fought the invasion. They simply withdrew. It is wrong to say they were defeated because they never fought. They had decided on the course which has now emerged which was to live and fight another day.
So why did he give it all up? For a defeated stateless foreigner i.e. Usama Bin Laden? Think.
In the light of the above, let`s rephrase the question of:
Please quote me a single example ... of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`.
TO:
Please quote me a single example ... of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice` to even a stateless foreigner?.
Gentlemen,
Either you are genuinely short on `facts`, or you purposely ignore these just for the sake of arguing your stated positions i.e. anti-pak/anti-Islam. That is not fair. Of-course you know well what happened immediately after 9/11 ... don`t you? Well let me refresh your memory in the sequence of events leading to rout of Taliban:
1) Usama denies involvement.
2) US demands handover of Usama.
2) Omar says will carry out own investigation and if guilty will hand-over.
3) Us declines and threatens attack.
4) Omar says willing to hand over to neutral country and international tribunal but not US.
5) Us declines and threatens attack.
6) Intense negotiations take place between Talibs/Pak.
7) Omar doesn`t yield and insists he will only hand over Usama if justice is guaranteed.
8) Us threatens attack.
9) Umar says eff you.
10) US threatens Pak, attack begins with Pak support, and Taliban abandon power!
In the above sequence, it is clear all Omar had to do to remain in power, was just to hand over Usama who was in no position to resist with a few hundred Arab fighters. Umar chose not to do that for the reason he explained in #323 that it was not a question of Usama, it was a question of Islam itself. You must also keep in mind that the Unocal pipeline deal was in the final stages at the time promising huge revenues for Taliban.
Taliban never fought the invasion. They simply withdrew. It is wrong to say they were defeated because they never fought. They had decided on the course which has now emerged which was to live and fight another day.
So why did he give it all up? For a defeated stateless foreigner i.e. Usama Bin Laden? Think.
In the light of the above, let`s rephrase the question of:
Please quote me a single example ... of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`.
TO:
Please quote me a single example ... of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice` to even a stateless foreigner?.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#411 Posted by jay on October 28, 2006 8:23:46 pm
Taliban and pakistan
The ducated pakistanis keep telling that it is the US support that created talibvan. The fact is that the involvement of the US was only incidental, the money from the Us came in when the post independant pakistanis, fed on the TNT ideology was rioe for the jihad.
Even after the Us support vanished, taliban is flourishing because of the support of the abdul pakis, the money`s collected from the collection boxes.
Most of the crime, the car jackings and the thefts are by the jihadis to fund the taliban.
Do not blame the US for taliban, it is inherently a product of the TNT, and it will flourish till pakistan is destroyed.
The ducated pakistanis keep telling that it is the US support that created talibvan. The fact is that the involvement of the US was only incidental, the money from the Us came in when the post independant pakistanis, fed on the TNT ideology was rioe for the jihad.
Even after the Us support vanished, taliban is flourishing because of the support of the abdul pakis, the money`s collected from the collection boxes.
Most of the crime, the car jackings and the thefts are by the jihadis to fund the taliban.
Do not blame the US for taliban, it is inherently a product of the TNT, and it will flourish till pakistan is destroyed.
#410 Posted by bjkumar on October 28, 2006 7:00:10 pm
#408 Krishna_abcd
[Did he declare that he had resigned from his position before he left?]
As a mere mortal, you are incapable of envisaging it (and so am I). As such things go - the position travels with him!
You see, he is a GPS (God picked smarty), HiFi (Highly flighty), multitasking (of several wives) system - therefore he must be nimble on his feet!
Pakistani folks (and perhaps nobody as much as the Pakistani folks) appreciate such qualities. People who are quick to react - and they have developed the quickness through sheer hard work - doing their fair share of practice with all those denials of charges of terrorism.
These people appreciate the Mullah Omars - those who react to the occasion at the right time in the right way - by taking flight! It is one thing to PREACH martyrdom - but they can not all PRACTICE it! If they did - it will be a disaster, after all - imagine, who will be left to FURTHER preach martyrdom?!!
So they appreciate the Mullahs! And other Pakistani heroes who are quick on the feet.
Look at the Mushy, for example - he waited for GWB`s popularity to go down the tube. He waited and NOW he can sneak the Taliban back in and NOW he can turn around, looked at that GWB of simple soul, and yammer:
``You should have learnt your lesson from gazing into Putin`s soul!``
And then top it all with....
``Na, na, na-na, naaaa- naaaa!``
#409 Posted by nasah on October 28, 2006 6:18:22 pm
``I can see many good things in Islam, in Bush,......``(Kal)
Islam may be but Bush? -- and then `many good things`? -- in that father of the poor -- Abu Gharib Bush -- of course many `good things` such as the crappiest fertilizer for harvesting bumper crops of world terrorism. Great satire Kal.
Islam may be but Bush? -- and then `many good things`? -- in that father of the poor -- Abu Gharib Bush -- of course many `good things` such as the crappiest fertilizer for harvesting bumper crops of world terrorism. Great satire Kal.
#408 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 28, 2006 5:37:38 pm
#406 by bjkumar
[Not true. It is my understanding that the one-eyed bandit rode out of the town on a bicycle - thereby fooling the high-tech GPS satellile locator - which had not been calibrated to accommodate the jerky movements of bicycles! ]
Did he declare that he had resigned from his position before he left?
[Not true. It is my understanding that the one-eyed bandit rode out of the town on a bicycle - thereby fooling the high-tech GPS satellile locator - which had not been calibrated to accommodate the jerky movements of bicycles! ]
Did he declare that he had resigned from his position before he left?
#407 Posted by bjkumar on October 28, 2006 4:04:40 pm
#404 Kaal (to Zee)
[But could it be that power is the ESSENTIAL MEANS, the prerequisite, to human good, not good itself? If that is the case, then one can imagine different powerful forces leading to different amounts and kinds of human good. Of course, if one force is able to demolish all others, then any good others may do is of no consequence ]
Expect to hear back promptly from the Zee on this one - just as soon as he is finished scratching his head! (In about a hundred years.)
#406 Posted by bjkumar on October 28, 2006 3:59:00 pm
#405 Krishna_abcd
[Mullah Omar did not ``give up`` power. He was kicked out.]
Not true. It is my understanding that the one-eyed bandit rode out of the town on a bicycle - thereby fooling the high-tech GPS satellile locator - which had not been calibrated to accommodate the jerky movements of bicycles!
Teray koochey se hum nikley, barey beaabroo hoekar...
#405 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 28, 2006 2:03:14 pm
#402 by zeemax
[Please quote me a single example in all the 5 thousand years or so of recorded history, or even unrecorded mythology, of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`. ]
The problem with you islamists is that you guys think of yourselves in grandiose terms. When in reality your leaders are mostly cowering in holes and caves.
Mullah Omar did not ``give up`` power. He was kicked out.
What he did was take a stand (principled or otherwise), knowing full well that he would be kicked out. There are a million examples in History - starting with Saddam Hussein.
There are, however, a million and a half people who actually abdicated their thrones to protest this or that.
Ask me. I`ll give you a list of a dozen or so of them.
[Please quote me a single example in all the 5 thousand years or so of recorded history, or even unrecorded mythology, of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`. ]
The problem with you islamists is that you guys think of yourselves in grandiose terms. When in reality your leaders are mostly cowering in holes and caves.
Mullah Omar did not ``give up`` power. He was kicked out.
What he did was take a stand (principled or otherwise), knowing full well that he would be kicked out. There are a million examples in History - starting with Saddam Hussein.
There are, however, a million and a half people who actually abdicated their thrones to protest this or that.
Ask me. I`ll give you a list of a dozen or so of them.
#404 Posted by KaalChakra on October 28, 2006 1:20:24 pm
echoboom dada
Let`s just say - to adjust, compromise, learn, teach, fight - these are all different things that some people do.
Zee (sorry about a bit of philosophizing!)
We two may be the only ``crazy`` people who believe that power may be the ultimate good :)
But could it be that power is the ESSENTIAL MEANS, the prerequisite, to human good, not good itself? If that is the case, then one can imagine different powerful forces leading to different amounts and kinds of human good. Of course, if one force is able to demolish all others, then any good others may do is of no consequence :(
Let`s just say - to adjust, compromise, learn, teach, fight - these are all different things that some people do.
Zee (sorry about a bit of philosophizing!)
We two may be the only ``crazy`` people who believe that power may be the ultimate good :)
But could it be that power is the ESSENTIAL MEANS, the prerequisite, to human good, not good itself? If that is the case, then one can imagine different powerful forces leading to different amounts and kinds of human good. Of course, if one force is able to demolish all others, then any good others may do is of no consequence :(
#403 Posted by echoboom on October 28, 2006 1:17:48 pm
Now why such GOOD news is not given by the goray-kay-ghulaams in slavelands?
The reson is simply that the Ba Ba Blacksheep & the tota-mainaas has some desire in their blackened hearts to see the fundamentalist & the learned ones lose in their battle against their Satanic Masters.
But have they not heard that the entire western ``education`` stuff is creaking & crumbling, ironically by the pick-axes of the Western ``Philosophy`` & ``Literature`` itself.
Shub gureizaaN hogee aakhir jalvaa-e khurshid sey
Yeh chaman maamoor hogaa naghmaa-e tauheed sey..................allama Iqbal
tr: The dark night would fast recede & the dazzling sun would shine
This garden`ll be resplendent, & burst with song of ONe Divine.
From PRAVDA
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/16599_india.html
Russia and India join efforts to become strategic partners
12/09/2005 17:28
The two countries aim to launch large-scale defense projects and stand up for Iran`s right to work on its nuclear program
The recent visit of the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Russia has proved it again that Moscow officials do have good skills in finding political and economic allies. It is difficult to say which of the two states - Russia or India - is more interested in cooperation. It is not really important to know the answer for this question, taking into consideration the fact that there are too many fields, which Russia and India can gain mutual profit from. Vladimir Putin and Manmohan Singh
India, the economic rise of which has been gaining five percent for several years already, is in dire need of energy carriers first and foremost. India supposedly purchases 70 percent of the consumed oil abroad. Needless to say that Russia may come in handy for India at this point.
In addition, India is very interested in Russian arms. It is noteworthy that the two countries have finished the purchase-and-sale period in their relations. The current level of bilateral ties between the two countries allows them to think about launching joint projects in the defense field. The development of a new pursuit plane of the fifth generation could be a good example of such intentions.
As for India acquiring Russian weapons, one should mention something about two other largest purchasers of Russian defense technologies: China and Iran (the latter has been gradually increasing its orders with the Russian defense complex). Both Chinese, Russian and Indian officials have recently acknowledged that the three countries were very close to achieving the genuine strategic partnership. A lot of specialists, however, said that China and India would never be able to avoid bitter rivalries in their aspiration to accomplish regional and global leadership.
Russia and India have been taking efforts to attract Iran in the large-scale Eurasian partnership. One can see Russian and Indian officials defending Tehran`s interests on the international political arena, especially when it comes to the current debate of the Iranian nuclear program. President Putin and Indian Prime Minister Singh touched upon this subject during their recent talks in Moscow. There is every reason to believe that the two leaders have confirmed their intentions to stand up for Tehran`s right to work on its nuclear projects if they are based on peaceful initiatives, of course.
Russia expects a lot from its Indian partners. It may seem surprising, but India, in which 25 percent of its billion-strong population live below the poverty line, can become a very good investor for the Russian economy.
It goes without saying that Russia and India will continue running a close political cooperation too. The Indian prime minister said during a press conference in Moscow that there was practically no international issue left in the world, which could be solved without Russia`s participation in it.
AP photo
The reson is simply that the Ba Ba Blacksheep & the tota-mainaas has some desire in their blackened hearts to see the fundamentalist & the learned ones lose in their battle against their Satanic Masters.
But have they not heard that the entire western ``education`` stuff is creaking & crumbling, ironically by the pick-axes of the Western ``Philosophy`` & ``Literature`` itself.
Shub gureizaaN hogee aakhir jalvaa-e khurshid sey
Yeh chaman maamoor hogaa naghmaa-e tauheed sey..................allama Iqbal
tr: The dark night would fast recede & the dazzling sun would shine
This garden`ll be resplendent, & burst with song of ONe Divine.
From PRAVDA
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/16599_india.html
Russia and India join efforts to become strategic partners
12/09/2005 17:28
The two countries aim to launch large-scale defense projects and stand up for Iran`s right to work on its nuclear program
The recent visit of the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Russia has proved it again that Moscow officials do have good skills in finding political and economic allies. It is difficult to say which of the two states - Russia or India - is more interested in cooperation. It is not really important to know the answer for this question, taking into consideration the fact that there are too many fields, which Russia and India can gain mutual profit from. Vladimir Putin and Manmohan Singh
India, the economic rise of which has been gaining five percent for several years already, is in dire need of energy carriers first and foremost. India supposedly purchases 70 percent of the consumed oil abroad. Needless to say that Russia may come in handy for India at this point.
In addition, India is very interested in Russian arms. It is noteworthy that the two countries have finished the purchase-and-sale period in their relations. The current level of bilateral ties between the two countries allows them to think about launching joint projects in the defense field. The development of a new pursuit plane of the fifth generation could be a good example of such intentions.
As for India acquiring Russian weapons, one should mention something about two other largest purchasers of Russian defense technologies: China and Iran (the latter has been gradually increasing its orders with the Russian defense complex). Both Chinese, Russian and Indian officials have recently acknowledged that the three countries were very close to achieving the genuine strategic partnership. A lot of specialists, however, said that China and India would never be able to avoid bitter rivalries in their aspiration to accomplish regional and global leadership.
Russia and India have been taking efforts to attract Iran in the large-scale Eurasian partnership. One can see Russian and Indian officials defending Tehran`s interests on the international political arena, especially when it comes to the current debate of the Iranian nuclear program. President Putin and Indian Prime Minister Singh touched upon this subject during their recent talks in Moscow. There is every reason to believe that the two leaders have confirmed their intentions to stand up for Tehran`s right to work on its nuclear projects if they are based on peaceful initiatives, of course.
Russia expects a lot from its Indian partners. It may seem surprising, but India, in which 25 percent of its billion-strong population live below the poverty line, can become a very good investor for the Russian economy.
It goes without saying that Russia and India will continue running a close political cooperation too. The Indian prime minister said during a press conference in Moscow that there was practically no international issue left in the world, which could be solved without Russia`s participation in it.
AP photo
#402 Posted by zeemax on October 28, 2006 12:53:55 pm
#398 by kaalchakra re Zee #394
Actually, that says a lot about the power of faith. It will be a mistake to not acknowledge and appreciate that.
True. A lot of people are making that mistake.
Something that is powerful does not have to be good. It is just powerful.
And who knows that Power is actually the ultimate good?
... we are talking here about great human beings, such as Mullah Omar!
Please quote me a single example in all the 5 thousand years or so of recorded history, or even unrecorded mythology, of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`.
Actually, that says a lot about the power of faith. It will be a mistake to not acknowledge and appreciate that.
True. A lot of people are making that mistake.
Something that is powerful does not have to be good. It is just powerful.
And who knows that Power is actually the ultimate good?
... we are talking here about great human beings, such as Mullah Omar!
Please quote me a single example in all the 5 thousand years or so of recorded history, or even unrecorded mythology, of a single ruler who gave up power and sacrificed everything for the simple principle of `Justice`.
#401 Posted by echoboom on October 28, 2006 12:47:31 pm
#400 by kaalchakra
No it was not just about you. It was about those you identify with or represent.
adjusters & compromisers should never ever try to even whiff past the big-leagues. Their job prospects might be in jeopardy.
No it was not just about you. It was about those you identify with or represent.
adjusters & compromisers should never ever try to even whiff past the big-leagues. Their job prospects might be in jeopardy.
#400 Posted by KaalChakra on October 28, 2006 12:28:12 pm
echoboom # 396
That is true! :)
Although one`s personal life is not really the issue, for me compromise is not a dirty word. I can see many good things in Islam, in Bush, and in everyone else. I don`t always expect any one of them to follow MY WAY even if I was convinced I was always right. :)
Enough about me - we are talking here about great human beings, such as Mullah Omar!
That is true! :)
Although one`s personal life is not really the issue, for me compromise is not a dirty word. I can see many good things in Islam, in Bush, and in everyone else. I don`t always expect any one of them to follow MY WAY even if I was convinced I was always right. :)
Enough about me - we are talking here about great human beings, such as Mullah Omar!
#399 Posted by echoboom on October 28, 2006 12:22:48 pm
RE-RUN
October 28, 2006 12:19pm PT
Kaalchakra:391
yaar you should never ever worry about anything. You & your job will always be there. You will always adjust and compromise.
aur humeisha kee tarah ussi taNkhwah (salary) pur kaam krnay pur raazi ho jao gey.
[Reply to interact #396]
October 28, 2006 12:19pm PT
Kaalchakra:391
yaar you should never ever worry about anything. You & your job will always be there. You will always adjust and compromise.
aur humeisha kee tarah ussi taNkhwah (salary) pur kaam krnay pur raazi ho jao gey.
[Reply to interact #396]
#398 Posted by KaalChakra on October 28, 2006 12:22:27 pm
Zee #394
Actually, that says a lot about the power of faith. It will be a mistake to not acknowledge and appreciate that.
Something that is powerful does not have to be good. It is just powerful.
Actually, that says a lot about the power of faith. It will be a mistake to not acknowledge and appreciate that.
Something that is powerful does not have to be good. It is just powerful.
#397 Posted by anil on October 28, 2006 12:21:53 pm
Aparna:
You have indeed taken a great topic for research, it has great consequences on central Asia and south Asia in the next 10 to 15 years. Your essay, if it is part of your research, then need original research content. Allow me to suggest a thesis to develop that can dominate and hence the outcome on the ground.
The U.S. and NATO have given implicit support to Pakistan’s agreement with Taliban in Waziristan, which is inside Pakistan. Only one thing is clear from it is that center of gravity of Islamofascist Taliban is now inside Pakistan, and has shifted away from Afghanistan.
This can imply that Pakistan has been partitioned to accommodate Taliban and create a buffer between Afghanistan and rest of Pakistan. Non-pashtun Afghanis would greatly appreciate a dialog with such an entity as it will give them power over Afghanistan. Pakistan’s Punjabi dominated military has limited choice, as it has no control over this part, and cannot bomb it forever as a side-kick of the west. NATO needs to operate and pursue inside this area. Neither Pakistan nor the west wants to make it look that the pursuit is inside Pakistan. Also whatever Pakistan does, if does not fit NATO, as it, not the U.S., now controls the command, NATO will freely go into this buffer zone to settle scores with Taliban. Thus any alliance Pakistan forms with any party can be annulled.
The post World War II, world order has been built on the principle that fascism cannot co-exist be it was in the form of Nazism, Communism and now Talibanism or Islamofascism, in any part other than through controllable third world (for convenience) dictators. This battle has just begun, forces are getting rearranged.
The issue is how far south into Pakistan this buffer zone can stretch. NWFP was formed by the British as a buffer zone earlier, you might like to study it more. Durand line intentionally left part of them on either side, as divide and conquer would better. One possibility is that Pashtun areas in Afghanistan and Pashtun areas in Pakistan are together the buffer zone. I feel that non-Pashtun Afghanis will accept this realignment.
Consequences for Pakistan are serious that they are giving up control over part of its territory. This time it certainly is not because of any moth, but because of absence of democratic institutions which can challenge. For India, dealing with Non-Pashtun Afghanis has not been a problem, it pre-independence India, dealing with Pashtuns was not difficult either. Musharraf’s plea to be treated equally is a genuine plea, but does not reflect the reality any longer that India has moved.
Can Musharaff steer Pakistan through this tough time? Can the next administration in the U.S. will be as sympathetic toward Pakistan or cut loose and run? With Taliban’s center of gravity now inside Pakistan, what will happen to Pakistan if the U.S. cut loose and run? If Pakistan’s existence is threatened, then how will it react toward Indian Kashmir? These are more significant questions.
Anil
You have indeed taken a great topic for research, it has great consequences on central Asia and south Asia in the next 10 to 15 years. Your essay, if it is part of your research, then need original research content. Allow me to suggest a thesis to develop that can dominate and hence the outcome on the ground.
The U.S. and NATO have given implicit support to Pakistan’s agreement with Taliban in Waziristan, which is inside Pakistan. Only one thing is clear from it is that center of gravity of Islamofascist Taliban is now inside Pakistan, and has shifted away from Afghanistan.
This can imply that Pakistan has been partitioned to accommodate Taliban and create a buffer between Afghanistan and rest of Pakistan. Non-pashtun Afghanis would greatly appreciate a dialog with such an entity as it will give them power over Afghanistan. Pakistan’s Punjabi dominated military has limited choice, as it has no control over this part, and cannot bomb it forever as a side-kick of the west. NATO needs to operate and pursue inside this area. Neither Pakistan nor the west wants to make it look that the pursuit is inside Pakistan. Also whatever Pakistan does, if does not fit NATO, as it, not the U.S., now controls the command, NATO will freely go into this buffer zone to settle scores with Taliban. Thus any alliance Pakistan forms with any party can be annulled.
The post World War II, world order has been built on the principle that fascism cannot co-exist be it was in the form of Nazism, Communism and now Talibanism or Islamofascism, in any part other than through controllable third world (for convenience) dictators. This battle has just begun, forces are getting rearranged.
The issue is how far south into Pakistan this buffer zone can stretch. NWFP was formed by the British as a buffer zone earlier, you might like to study it more. Durand line intentionally left part of them on either side, as divide and conquer would better. One possibility is that Pashtun areas in Afghanistan and Pashtun areas in Pakistan are together the buffer zone. I feel that non-Pashtun Afghanis will accept this realignment.
Consequences for Pakistan are serious that they are giving up control over part of its territory. This time it certainly is not because of any moth, but because of absence of democratic institutions which can challenge. For India, dealing with Non-Pashtun Afghanis has not been a problem, it pre-independence India, dealing with Pashtuns was not difficult either. Musharraf’s plea to be treated equally is a genuine plea, but does not reflect the reality any longer that India has moved.
Can Musharaff steer Pakistan through this tough time? Can the next administration in the U.S. will be as sympathetic toward Pakistan or cut loose and run? With Taliban’s center of gravity now inside Pakistan, what will happen to Pakistan if the U.S. cut loose and run? If Pakistan’s existence is threatened, then how will it react toward Indian Kashmir? These are more significant questions.
Anil
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- pakistan3: Re: # 362 tahmed32, It takes... Dhokha and Being a
- tahmed32: and i once had... Dhokha and Being a
- tahmed32: pakistan: ok, you got... Dhokha and Being a
- pakistan3: Re: # 359 unlike you,... Dhokha and Being a
- Naqshbandi: and this link explores... Translation of a (Love)
- tahmed32: further to #257: although... Dhokha and Being a
- masanamuthu: Mystic: #325: One advice. CAPS... Dhokha and Being a
- tahmed32: #355 pakistan: point well... Dhokha and Being a
