Pakistan's Afghan Policy
Aparna Pande October 24, 2006
#492 Posted by krishna_abcd on November 4, 2006 3:23:45 am
#490 by discoverer
[Things The West & Pakistan should make India to do for sake of humanity.. ]
The West, eh?
I think Paki losers like you will like this article. :)
Check out this article in the prestigious Forbes.com magazine written by Caspar W. Weinberger - who was the Seccretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan.
India: on Every Business Agenda
Caspar W. Weinberger, Chairman, 02.13.06, 12:00 AM ET
Forbes Columnist and famed British historian Paul Johnson in September urged that we devote far more time and effort to ``forging close and durable links with India.`` While Europe will always be important to us, the road to our economic and strategic success in midcentury will run straight through India. Demographic trends show that by 2050 the GNP of the U.S. will be three times larger than that of Europe. Currently all large U.S. corporations have extensive business trips to Europe on their agendas, but in the future they will need to pay far more attention to building major business relationships with India.
Trade between the U.S. and India increased from $5.5 billion in 1990 to $18 billion in 2003, with the U.S. becoming India`s largest trading partner. Among India`s imports are petroleum, chemicals, fertilizers, industrial machinery and gemstones. Among its exports are chemicals, cotton textiles and clothing, cut diamonds and jewelry, iron ore and tea. It is also a large supplier of outsourcing manpower for U.S. and other foreign companies.
Economic growth in India`s southern and western states has exploded, but such growth has not occurred in the northern and eastern states. These states, therefore, have much higher poverty rates. India desperately needs more foreign investment. It must make better progress in controlling the spread of AIDS. And high on its agenda are stabilizing and improving relationships with China and Japan, both of which invaded India in the past. While relations between India and Pakistan remain tense, there has been improvement on that front.
With every indicator showing the importance of a strong U.S. relationship with India, the obvious question is: Why has it not always been the case? There were many years when India was thought of as an automatic enemy. Congress party governments under the leadership of the Gandhi family were largely Socialist and maintained close ties with Russia during the Cold War. Further exacerbating things was the tendency of U.S. foreign policy experts to demonstrate their liberality by consistently taking India`s side in any disagreements between us. After our victory in the Cold War, however, India`s ties to Russia became far less important.
In 1991, following Rajiv Gandhi`s assassination, P.V. Narasimha Rao became prime minister. Rao began a series of economic reforms, moving the country toward a free-enterprise system. He ended many government monopolies and encouraged foreign investment and corporate ownership. He also reduced taxes on imported goods. In 1996, however, the Congress party--which, with the exception of four years, had led India since independence--suffered a major defeat. Since then large and diverse political coalitions have been needed to win elections and keep the country politically stable.
In March 1998 a coalition led by the Bharatiya Janata party (BJP) came to power, and Atal Bihari Vajpayee became prime minister. In May India proceeded with nuclear weapons tests and declared itself capable of using and producing such weapons. Perversely, this provided an opportunity for strengthening relations between the U.S. and India. Pakistan soon followed with its own nuclear tests, and tensions between India and Pakistan have since gone through a series of escalations and easings.
Under the leadership of prime ministers Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh (Indian National Congress) the climate for business has continued to improve. India has many assets to recommend it to American and European businesses looking for a base in which to anchor their expansions into Asia. It has an educated, well-trained workforce, a generally strong infrastructure and good communications and informational networks. Because of its years under British rule, it has a long tradition of familiarity with English and of upholding the rule of law. As mentioned, India also has substantial outsourcing experience. It has joined China in becoming a magnet for economic growth.
The Open Skies aviation agreement of 2005 opened up many direct flights between cities in the U.S. and India, facilitating trade and travel between our two countries. Political relations have strengthened along with our business ties. The U.S. and India now enjoy a stronger security relationship and engage in regular joint military exercises.
India is a natural partner for the U.S. in this volatile part of the world. Its economic progress still requires nurturing. We must manage this relationship carefully and well, keeping in mind that any renewal of hostilities among India, Pakistan and China would be disastrous for India`s future--and, indeed, that of the world.
[Things The West & Pakistan should make India to do for sake of humanity.. ]
The West, eh?
I think Paki losers like you will like this article. :)
Check out this article in the prestigious Forbes.com magazine written by Caspar W. Weinberger - who was the Seccretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan.
India: on Every Business Agenda
Caspar W. Weinberger, Chairman, 02.13.06, 12:00 AM ET
Forbes Columnist and famed British historian Paul Johnson in September urged that we devote far more time and effort to ``forging close and durable links with India.`` While Europe will always be important to us, the road to our economic and strategic success in midcentury will run straight through India. Demographic trends show that by 2050 the GNP of the U.S. will be three times larger than that of Europe. Currently all large U.S. corporations have extensive business trips to Europe on their agendas, but in the future they will need to pay far more attention to building major business relationships with India.
Trade between the U.S. and India increased from $5.5 billion in 1990 to $18 billion in 2003, with the U.S. becoming India`s largest trading partner. Among India`s imports are petroleum, chemicals, fertilizers, industrial machinery and gemstones. Among its exports are chemicals, cotton textiles and clothing, cut diamonds and jewelry, iron ore and tea. It is also a large supplier of outsourcing manpower for U.S. and other foreign companies.
Economic growth in India`s southern and western states has exploded, but such growth has not occurred in the northern and eastern states. These states, therefore, have much higher poverty rates. India desperately needs more foreign investment. It must make better progress in controlling the spread of AIDS. And high on its agenda are stabilizing and improving relationships with China and Japan, both of which invaded India in the past. While relations between India and Pakistan remain tense, there has been improvement on that front.
With every indicator showing the importance of a strong U.S. relationship with India, the obvious question is: Why has it not always been the case? There were many years when India was thought of as an automatic enemy. Congress party governments under the leadership of the Gandhi family were largely Socialist and maintained close ties with Russia during the Cold War. Further exacerbating things was the tendency of U.S. foreign policy experts to demonstrate their liberality by consistently taking India`s side in any disagreements between us. After our victory in the Cold War, however, India`s ties to Russia became far less important.
In 1991, following Rajiv Gandhi`s assassination, P.V. Narasimha Rao became prime minister. Rao began a series of economic reforms, moving the country toward a free-enterprise system. He ended many government monopolies and encouraged foreign investment and corporate ownership. He also reduced taxes on imported goods. In 1996, however, the Congress party--which, with the exception of four years, had led India since independence--suffered a major defeat. Since then large and diverse political coalitions have been needed to win elections and keep the country politically stable.
In March 1998 a coalition led by the Bharatiya Janata party (BJP) came to power, and Atal Bihari Vajpayee became prime minister. In May India proceeded with nuclear weapons tests and declared itself capable of using and producing such weapons. Perversely, this provided an opportunity for strengthening relations between the U.S. and India. Pakistan soon followed with its own nuclear tests, and tensions between India and Pakistan have since gone through a series of escalations and easings.
Under the leadership of prime ministers Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh (Indian National Congress) the climate for business has continued to improve. India has many assets to recommend it to American and European businesses looking for a base in which to anchor their expansions into Asia. It has an educated, well-trained workforce, a generally strong infrastructure and good communications and informational networks. Because of its years under British rule, it has a long tradition of familiarity with English and of upholding the rule of law. As mentioned, India also has substantial outsourcing experience. It has joined China in becoming a magnet for economic growth.
The Open Skies aviation agreement of 2005 opened up many direct flights between cities in the U.S. and India, facilitating trade and travel between our two countries. Political relations have strengthened along with our business ties. The U.S. and India now enjoy a stronger security relationship and engage in regular joint military exercises.
India is a natural partner for the U.S. in this volatile part of the world. Its economic progress still requires nurturing. We must manage this relationship carefully and well, keeping in mind that any renewal of hostilities among India, Pakistan and China would be disastrous for India`s future--and, indeed, that of the world.
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#491 Posted by krishna_abcd on November 4, 2006 2:58:59 am
#490 by discoverer
Forget about India.
Just tell me this - why would you follow a pedophile?
Forget about India.
Just tell me this - why would you follow a pedophile?
#490 Posted by discoverer on November 4, 2006 1:15:33 am
here we go again...
another article from an ecentric fool.....
Things The West & Pakistan should make India to do for sake of humanity..
-India should stop helping tamil tiger for terrorising Sri Lanka.
-India should stop rascial movement like Shiv Sena, BJP for carring out neo-nazi movement
-India should stop drug, Porno smuggling from india, expecially from south india
-More recently some of the attacks carried out in Pakistan are not from TALIBAN or Al Qaeda it was from indian intelligence agency R.A.W.
- India should stop fighting with sikh and should give them there Khalistan for they suffer a lot in Amritsar Massacar, same goes with Nagaland(east of india).
-Personally I feel Indian population is making petrol and Food prices go high coz Indians are enjoying humping each other eery day and the result is an extremely high populated country. India should start a door to door condom campaign
Well there are lots of thing going on in india and i have name a few.
India should start focusing there problem and trust me Aparna your article will have a different look.
another article from an ecentric fool.....
Things The West & Pakistan should make India to do for sake of humanity..
-India should stop helping tamil tiger for terrorising Sri Lanka.
-India should stop rascial movement like Shiv Sena, BJP for carring out neo-nazi movement
-India should stop drug, Porno smuggling from india, expecially from south india
-More recently some of the attacks carried out in Pakistan are not from TALIBAN or Al Qaeda it was from indian intelligence agency R.A.W.
- India should stop fighting with sikh and should give them there Khalistan for they suffer a lot in Amritsar Massacar, same goes with Nagaland(east of india).
-Personally I feel Indian population is making petrol and Food prices go high coz Indians are enjoying humping each other eery day and the result is an extremely high populated country. India should start a door to door condom campaign
Well there are lots of thing going on in india and i have name a few.
India should start focusing there problem and trust me Aparna your article will have a different look.
#489 Posted by MantoLives on November 3, 2006 10:04:28 pm
KrishnaABCD,
As I pointed out to Dullah Bhatti - his assertion that I have quoted Pakistani literacy rates coming from the government as fact is false because to date I have not quoted any official literacy figures ... infact I merely pointed out the inherent contradictions in Sadna`s extrapolation from the data she quoted. As a disclaimer I had made it clear that I hold neither Pakistani nor Indian ``census`` figures to be accurate or scientifically unimpeachable. It must also be remembered that my calculations below are based on the same official figures ... except I still don`t lend them any credence because I just don`t trust the government... any government.
That you despite your babbling have been unable to answer the points I raised is enough for me to assume that you really don`t have any answer.
As I pointed out to Dullah Bhatti - his assertion that I have quoted Pakistani literacy rates coming from the government as fact is false because to date I have not quoted any official literacy figures ... infact I merely pointed out the inherent contradictions in Sadna`s extrapolation from the data she quoted. As a disclaimer I had made it clear that I hold neither Pakistani nor Indian ``census`` figures to be accurate or scientifically unimpeachable. It must also be remembered that my calculations below are based on the same official figures ... except I still don`t lend them any credence because I just don`t trust the government... any government.
That you despite your babbling have been unable to answer the points I raised is enough for me to assume that you really don`t have any answer.
#488 Posted by MantoLives on November 3, 2006 9:59:09 pm
Re: # 483
Pray tell oh genius how that is a counterargument.
Tharparkar is a part of Sindh and is still predominantly Hindu. Chittagong is part of Bangladesh and Bangladesh still has 10-15% Hindu population.
Aql kay nakhun lo.
Pray tell oh genius how that is a counterargument.
Tharparkar is a part of Sindh and is still predominantly Hindu. Chittagong is part of Bangladesh and Bangladesh still has 10-15% Hindu population.
Aql kay nakhun lo.
#487 Posted by MantoLives on November 3, 2006 9:57:25 pm
Re: # 484
Dullah Bhatti,
Could you point out where I`ve put up Pakistani literacy rate figures as accurate? I`ve pointed out that the mechanism is inaccurate and at times, Pakistanis have been surprised by their own miscalculations.
Dullah Bhatti,
Could you point out where I`ve put up Pakistani literacy rate figures as accurate? I`ve pointed out that the mechanism is inaccurate and at times, Pakistanis have been surprised by their own miscalculations.
#486 Posted by krishna_abcd on November 3, 2006 8:44:13 pm
#484 by dullabhatti
[I don`t understand why you always disagree with Pak census numbers on minoritie but accept the literacy numbers coming from pak gov as 100% accurate. is their a reason for this? ]
Yes. After defending Muhammad and Jinnah for a while, the boundaried between reality and Paki-reality begin to fade.
[I don`t understand why you always disagree with Pak census numbers on minoritie but accept the literacy numbers coming from pak gov as 100% accurate. is their a reason for this? ]
Yes. After defending Muhammad and Jinnah for a while, the boundaried between reality and Paki-reality begin to fade.
#485 Posted by krishna_abcd on November 3, 2006 8:37:34 pm
#477 by Mantolives
[Once again fudged figures are not going to prove anything. What you`ve said below as usual doesn`t prove anything. ]
Yes. Of course. None of the references I cite are trustworthy. They have all fudged the numbers. But the facts and figures you pull out of your rear end are all credible.
Next you will be claiming that Ahmadiyyas are Muslims, and thus will avoid being deep fried in hell. I think the chances of that are as remote as you ever getting within arms reach of a ``untouched like pearls`` ghilman.
:)
[Once again fudged figures are not going to prove anything. What you`ve said below as usual doesn`t prove anything. ]
Yes. Of course. None of the references I cite are trustworthy. They have all fudged the numbers. But the facts and figures you pull out of your rear end are all credible.
Next you will be claiming that Ahmadiyyas are Muslims, and thus will avoid being deep fried in hell. I think the chances of that are as remote as you ever getting within arms reach of a ``untouched like pearls`` ghilman.
:)
#484 Posted by dullabhatti on November 3, 2006 10:34:57 am
Manto,
I understand what you are saying. I don`t see anything major that I disagree in your post below. My position is & has been always that there was almost total cleansing of Muslims from Indian Punjab(boundaries of today) bar few places. Thats what is evident from my posts. #s I quoted are only good in comparison with hindus and sikhs from Pak Punjab otherwise they are insignificant.
That to me is clear as day light. it does not need any further discussion.
point of my anecdotal narration is not that cleansing did not happen but whatever small population of muslims left behind(in these pockets) lives like any other citizen doing whatever normal people do. There are 3 or 4 muslim Govt holidays in Indian Punjab(and been since ever). there are muslims in universities, politics, civil adminstration etc. that is not what we hear about Sikhs and Hindus in Pak Punjab. Sindh is a different place.
but just to say few words just for the sake of it, I will say take into consideration the following while comparing the situation in two Punjabs:
1. Very few muslims in Gurdaspur distt. other than in Qadian(who are all Ahmadis). marginal majority of Muslims in gurdaspur was comparable to many areas in Pakistan which had large Hindu populations e.g. Lahore city muslims where majority but Hindu/sikhs formed 40% or more(don`t remembe exactly now but Freedom at midnight mentioned it was 5 lakh hindu/sikhs and 6 lakh muslims or something like that.)
2. Majority of the muslims in East Punjab are in Ludhiana, Malerkotla areas
3. Indian Punjab today is only 1/3 or so of the Indian Punjab of 1947. One can argue most of Indian Punjab is really sarhaddi Punjab(of today) where border was close enough to force muslims out relatively easily.(that explains what happened in Gurdapur, ferozepur, Sialkot and Lahore)
4. Other parts of 1947 Indian Punjab like Haryana and Himachal have 6% and 2% muslim population respectively.
5. Total population of Pak Punjab is some 80 million. while Indian Punjab is only 25million or less. so 117K/80million v/s 380K/25million. .14% v/s 1.6%. both are insignificant in my view considering that there were many towns and villages on each side with their majorities or large minorities (Gurdaspur was one)
I don`t understand why you always disagree with Pak census numbers on minoritie but accept the literacy numbers coming from pak gov as 100% accurate. is their a reason for this? is it the way both numbers are collected, probably differntly?
khair, the way I remember reading the numbers were like this...approx 6 million hindu/sikh and 6 million muslim population was transfered during partition. is that correct in overall numbers? I think whatever that number is, is more representative than anything else we quoted so for.
I understand what you are saying. I don`t see anything major that I disagree in your post below. My position is & has been always that there was almost total cleansing of Muslims from Indian Punjab(boundaries of today) bar few places. Thats what is evident from my posts. #s I quoted are only good in comparison with hindus and sikhs from Pak Punjab otherwise they are insignificant.
That to me is clear as day light. it does not need any further discussion.
point of my anecdotal narration is not that cleansing did not happen but whatever small population of muslims left behind(in these pockets) lives like any other citizen doing whatever normal people do. There are 3 or 4 muslim Govt holidays in Indian Punjab(and been since ever). there are muslims in universities, politics, civil adminstration etc. that is not what we hear about Sikhs and Hindus in Pak Punjab. Sindh is a different place.
but just to say few words just for the sake of it, I will say take into consideration the following while comparing the situation in two Punjabs:
1. Very few muslims in Gurdaspur distt. other than in Qadian(who are all Ahmadis). marginal majority of Muslims in gurdaspur was comparable to many areas in Pakistan which had large Hindu populations e.g. Lahore city muslims where majority but Hindu/sikhs formed 40% or more(don`t remembe exactly now but Freedom at midnight mentioned it was 5 lakh hindu/sikhs and 6 lakh muslims or something like that.)
2. Majority of the muslims in East Punjab are in Ludhiana, Malerkotla areas
3. Indian Punjab today is only 1/3 or so of the Indian Punjab of 1947. One can argue most of Indian Punjab is really sarhaddi Punjab(of today) where border was close enough to force muslims out relatively easily.(that explains what happened in Gurdapur, ferozepur, Sialkot and Lahore)
4. Other parts of 1947 Indian Punjab like Haryana and Himachal have 6% and 2% muslim population respectively.
5. Total population of Pak Punjab is some 80 million. while Indian Punjab is only 25million or less. so 117K/80million v/s 380K/25million. .14% v/s 1.6%. both are insignificant in my view considering that there were many towns and villages on each side with their majorities or large minorities (Gurdaspur was one)
I don`t understand why you always disagree with Pak census numbers on minoritie but accept the literacy numbers coming from pak gov as 100% accurate. is their a reason for this? is it the way both numbers are collected, probably differntly?
khair, the way I remember reading the numbers were like this...approx 6 million hindu/sikh and 6 million muslim population was transfered during partition. is that correct in overall numbers? I think whatever that number is, is more representative than anything else we quoted so for.
#483 Posted by VRV on November 3, 2006 9:43:57 am
Tharparkar with 70% Hindu population and Chittagong Hill tracts with 97% Hindu population went to Pakistan.
#482 Posted by arjun2 on November 3, 2006 6:44:02 am
#479 by zeemax on November 3, 2006 4:14am PT
The head of the united nations knows the collective understanding of international law of the member nations
Umm...no he doesn`t...that would be like saying the AG knows the law and if he says it`s legal, it`s legal...
The head of the united nations knows the collective understanding of international law of the member nations
Umm...no he doesn`t...that would be like saying the AG knows the law and if he says it`s legal, it`s legal...
#481 Posted by PewResearch on November 3, 2006 4:43:29 am
Re: # 479 Zeemax
Now you have become completely incoherent. Ignoring you from here on. CIAO
Now you have become completely incoherent. Ignoring you from here on. CIAO
#479 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2006 4:14:34 am
#476 by PewResearch
Your argument lies in ruins. The head of the united nations knows the collective understanding of international law of the member nations ... may it be general assembly or the security council, which laws are in any case clear enough to require any disputed interpretations.
USA makes its own international laws, and twists laws to conform to what it wants to do. Recent example is the US`s definition of torture which is basically everything is ok as long as you do not damage any vital organs of the victim ....
Your argument lies in ruins. The head of the united nations knows the collective understanding of international law of the member nations ... may it be general assembly or the security council, which laws are in any case clear enough to require any disputed interpretations.
USA makes its own international laws, and twists laws to conform to what it wants to do. Recent example is the US`s definition of torture which is basically everything is ok as long as you do not damage any vital organs of the victim ....
#478 Posted by MantoLives on November 3, 2006 4:01:10 am
PS: Given that Punjab`s non-Muslim districts were prized away .... Pakistan`s total Hindu population ... 3.5 - 4 million forms almost atleast 2% of the population of Pakistan over all...
However in Sindh ... where most of those 3.5 million-4 million people live.... the percentage is almost 10-15%. The total population of Sindh is 30,439,893.
An accurate comparison mind you - given the history of Punjab in 1947- can only be either Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab... or population of Pakistan minus Punjab and population of India minus Punjab...
The Punjab comparison may favor India (but as I showed earlier is only so because India inherited a Muslim majority district it shouldn`t have) .... but the second analysis Rest of Pakistan v. Rest of India... is only marginally better.
#477 Posted by MantoLives on November 3, 2006 3:52:01 am
Re: # 470
KrishnaABCD,
Once again fudged figures are not going to prove anything. What you`ve said below as usual doesn`t prove anything.
Dullah Bhatti,
According to Pakistani census of 1998... the total number of Hindus in Pakistani Punjab are 116 700 ... a number which is a gross understatement in my opinion.
If you recall Gurdaspur areas... including Qadian... were Muslim majority districts that were pried away from Pakistan even though it should have fell in Pakistan. .... that today you only have 386000 Muslims ... despite having a Muslim majority district ... just goes to prove the point you and I were making.
KrishnaABCD,
Once again fudged figures are not going to prove anything. What you`ve said below as usual doesn`t prove anything.
Dullah Bhatti,
According to Pakistani census of 1998... the total number of Hindus in Pakistani Punjab are 116 700 ... a number which is a gross understatement in my opinion.
If you recall Gurdaspur areas... including Qadian... were Muslim majority districts that were pried away from Pakistan even though it should have fell in Pakistan. .... that today you only have 386000 Muslims ... despite having a Muslim majority district ... just goes to prove the point you and I were making.
#476 Posted by PewResearch on November 2, 2006 4:15:01 am
Re: # 475 Zeemax
``
So who`s opinion counts more than Kofi`s?``
The UN General Assembly and the Security Council (in descending order)
Now go read more books before coming to me for a free education.
``
So who`s opinion counts more than Kofi`s?``
The UN General Assembly and the Security Council (in descending order)
Now go read more books before coming to me for a free education.
#475 Posted by zeemax on November 2, 2006 12:43:09 am
#474 by PewResearch
It is quite pitiful the way you toss and turn to wriggle out of an indefensible position. Now you say ``Kofi Annan is entitled to his opinion ``.
Interesting your dismissing the opinion of a person who is the head of the international body about which you at the same time say ``The fact that the UN is the sponsor of most of international law today .. ``
So who`s opinion counts more than Kofi`s? Yours? Of-course you think so thereby my original contention that the last of the three of my asumptions is correct.
As for bringing that vote stuff, Kofi`s ass had always been the most sought-after by USA after its invasions precisely because Kofi saying things like that, so much so that they tried to embroil him in corruption scandals and oil-for-food and all that suff, as well as his son.
It is quite pitiful the way you toss and turn to wriggle out of an indefensible position. Now you say ``Kofi Annan is entitled to his opinion ``.
Interesting your dismissing the opinion of a person who is the head of the international body about which you at the same time say ``The fact that the UN is the sponsor of most of international law today .. ``
So who`s opinion counts more than Kofi`s? Yours? Of-course you think so thereby my original contention that the last of the three of my asumptions is correct.
As for bringing that vote stuff, Kofi`s ass had always been the most sought-after by USA after its invasions precisely because Kofi saying things like that, so much so that they tried to embroil him in corruption scandals and oil-for-food and all that suff, as well as his son.
#474 Posted by PewResearch on November 1, 2006 4:12:58 am
Re: # 473 Zeemax
I don`t know why you changed the subject from Afghanistan to Iraq, and that is why I ignored you.
Kofi Annan is entitled to his opinion (as are you and Dost). What matters is if George Bush committed an international crime (i.e. war of aggression in Iraq) as perhaps Annan suggests,. The legal way (since you two are such believers in the law) is for Annan to successfully carry through a vote under the Nuremberg Principles in the General Assembly charging Bush with specific violations. That is not going to happen (and Annan knows that - he did not even bother when he was the Secretary General) especially because the very same assembly passed resolutions authorizing sanctions on Iraq.
You are entitled to your opinions, but not the facts! CIAO
I don`t know why you changed the subject from Afghanistan to Iraq, and that is why I ignored you.
Kofi Annan is entitled to his opinion (as are you and Dost). What matters is if George Bush committed an international crime (i.e. war of aggression in Iraq) as perhaps Annan suggests,. The legal way (since you two are such believers in the law) is for Annan to successfully carry through a vote under the Nuremberg Principles in the General Assembly charging Bush with specific violations. That is not going to happen (and Annan knows that - he did not even bother when he was the Secretary General) especially because the very same assembly passed resolutions authorizing sanctions on Iraq.
You are entitled to your opinions, but not the facts! CIAO
#473 Posted by zeemax on October 31, 2006 11:11:40 pm
Re: #467 by zeemax
No response from Mr. Pewresearch so I assume the answer must be the last of the three i.e. Kofi didn`t know his International law.
Cheers :-)
No response from Mr. Pewresearch so I assume the answer must be the last of the three i.e. Kofi didn`t know his International law.
Cheers :-)
#472 Posted by dullabhatti on October 31, 2006 8:54:03 pm
(contd..got disturbed by the trickotreating kids)
that is the situation today re to immigrant muslims but original over 1.5% from Punjab is a well known fact..most of them in Malerkotla area. I lived in Ludhiana for many years, there were some in Ludhiana city and surrounding villages also. (2 from that area were my classmates there).
but that was not the case in say villages in Amritsar District..I never knew any there except one person of Dalit community from my village who was always called by his muslim name...his mother was kidnapped by this dalit guy and he was born right after partition..his mother named him Rehmat....he also had his full name as Karmjit singh and is a sikh with full beard and turban etc and does GGS recitals in the local gurdwara.
Other than that I did not know any musims in Amritsar area but when I moved to Amritsar city(sadr city area) after high school we used to go for evening walk in the main bazar Hall bazar and I discovered that there a masjid which had some muslims sitting outside or door open and people inside the masjid chatting I almost forgot about this masjid until february this year while ladies were shopping I was strolling in Hall bazaar alone and all of a sudden I encountred may be over hundred men with skull caps ...I realized I was just few steps away from the Masjid and these guys had come out after the evening prayer..many of them work in shops in the inner city...many of them are actually Kashmiris. Now this was not a special festival or anything but a regular scene in the heart of Amritsar.
BUT all this does not take away the fact that muslims were butchered mercilessly in east punjab during partition and almost all driven away from the area except few hundred thousands in Malerkotla and Qaadian.
But it is good to see the remaining ones are not strangers in Punjab today and can live normal lives as any other members of the society.
that is the situation today re to immigrant muslims but original over 1.5% from Punjab is a well known fact..most of them in Malerkotla area. I lived in Ludhiana for many years, there were some in Ludhiana city and surrounding villages also. (2 from that area were my classmates there).
but that was not the case in say villages in Amritsar District..I never knew any there except one person of Dalit community from my village who was always called by his muslim name...his mother was kidnapped by this dalit guy and he was born right after partition..his mother named him Rehmat....he also had his full name as Karmjit singh and is a sikh with full beard and turban etc and does GGS recitals in the local gurdwara.
Other than that I did not know any musims in Amritsar area but when I moved to Amritsar city(sadr city area) after high school we used to go for evening walk in the main bazar Hall bazar and I discovered that there a masjid which had some muslims sitting outside or door open and people inside the masjid chatting I almost forgot about this masjid until february this year while ladies were shopping I was strolling in Hall bazaar alone and all of a sudden I encountred may be over hundred men with skull caps ...I realized I was just few steps away from the Masjid and these guys had come out after the evening prayer..many of them work in shops in the inner city...many of them are actually Kashmiris. Now this was not a special festival or anything but a regular scene in the heart of Amritsar.
BUT all this does not take away the fact that muslims were butchered mercilessly in east punjab during partition and almost all driven away from the area except few hundred thousands in Malerkotla and Qaadian.
But it is good to see the remaining ones are not strangers in Punjab today and can live normal lives as any other members of the society.
#471 Posted by dullabhatti on October 31, 2006 8:29:09 pm
#464 Manto:
According to 2001 census there are around 386,000 muslims in East Punjab. That is about 1.6% of the population. Majority of them are Punjabi muslims (majority in Ludhiana, Sangrur, , Qadian areas). That does not include Chandigarh(as chandigarh is union terroritory). There is also a large number of Muslim immigrants in last 10 years from UP and Bihar that used to come to Punjab seasonaly but lately the trend is to stay, bring families and permanently move to East Punjab. I met one such guy past february in Amritsar whom we hired for decoration at my niece`s wedding. He had about 15 local and immigrant workers working for him in this business. His name I think was Imran and he lives in Amritsar now with his family. Trend of Muslim Bhaiyas(as some people refered to them in Punjab) is very latest. One of my friends in Punjab when asked why so. told me that they are certainly safer here than Bihar and have better economic opportunities.
According to 2001 census there are around 386,000 muslims in East Punjab. That is about 1.6% of the population. Majority of them are Punjabi muslims (majority in Ludhiana, Sangrur, , Qadian areas). That does not include Chandigarh(as chandigarh is union terroritory). There is also a large number of Muslim immigrants in last 10 years from UP and Bihar that used to come to Punjab seasonaly but lately the trend is to stay, bring families and permanently move to East Punjab. I met one such guy past february in Amritsar whom we hired for decoration at my niece`s wedding. He had about 15 local and immigrant workers working for him in this business. His name I think was Imran and he lives in Amritsar now with his family. Trend of Muslim Bhaiyas(as some people refered to them in Punjab) is very latest. One of my friends in Punjab when asked why so. told me that they are certainly safer here than Bihar and have better economic opportunities.
#470 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 31, 2006 8:19:51 pm
#464 by Mantolives
[Looks like you are pulling these figures out of your rear end... metaphorically speaking ofcourse. I have met Pakistani Punjabi Sikhs and Pakistani Punjabi Hindus... and lots of Pakistani Sindhi Hindus ... but I have never met an Indian Punjabi Muslim (unless you want to count Delhi as part of Punjab which it is not)... ]
If that is the kind of argument you are going to use in your career as an attorney, I feel sorry for your clients.
Let`s see...
[Islamabad is not a city of 1 million...]
Here`s the information as posted in http://www.islamabad.net/info.htm:
Current population: 901137
[Rawalpindi is not a city of 1.4 million... ]
Here`s the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawalpindi
[and you`ve quoted no figure for this 20 families and 40 families ...]
This is from a Paki newspaper, no Hindutva mouthpiece: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2006%5C10%5C21%5Cstory_21-10-2006_pg11_7
[I know Islamabad has a low figure of Hindus ... like around a thousand or so... but that is because Rawalpindi has a larger population ... 2000+ ... ]
Wow. 3000+ in a total population of 1.4 + 0.9 = 2.3 million!
Wow! You Muslims MUST be doing something right!
Oops! Sorry! Officially (according to the Pakis) you are NOT a Muslim.
[Similarly I can`t take your word for Chandigarh`s population figures either,]
Here`s the population of Chandigarh as per the last census as posted in http://www.censusindia.net/profiles/chd.html:
Population as of 2001 : 900,914
Number of Muslims: 35,548 (as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India)
[ because nothing you`ve written has given us any real faith in you.]
Yasser, my dear boy. Unlike you Muslims who have to pull lie after lie out of your rear ends to rationalize your prophet`s physical lust towards a little baby when he had grey pubic hair, to his butchering 700 unarmed civilians to his selling their helpless and innocent women and children into slavery, to his million misdeeds, to the million crimes committed by Muslims in India and everywhere else, we Hindus do not have to rationalize anything. We are not trying convince or convert anyone. If we have problems, they are INTERNAL, we do not go out and kill others (unless, of course, you Muslims burn alive many dozens of Hindu men, women and children TO BEGIN WITH).
[Furthermore... just because there are a few Muslims living in Chandigarh (that is if they are) doesn`t mean that they are necessarily Punjabi Muslims.]
Dear boy, give some source of your information, rather than extract it from your rear end. Also, they might all be Tamil Muslims, but they are Muslims nonetheless.
[There are in total close to 3.5- 4 million Pakistani Hindus... if a better census is done.. we`ll discover that there are many more... ]
3.5-4 million out of how many?
Yasser, my dear boy. You better give up on this one as well.
[Looks like you are pulling these figures out of your rear end... metaphorically speaking ofcourse. I have met Pakistani Punjabi Sikhs and Pakistani Punjabi Hindus... and lots of Pakistani Sindhi Hindus ... but I have never met an Indian Punjabi Muslim (unless you want to count Delhi as part of Punjab which it is not)... ]
If that is the kind of argument you are going to use in your career as an attorney, I feel sorry for your clients.
Let`s see...
[Islamabad is not a city of 1 million...]
Here`s the information as posted in http://www.islamabad.net/info.htm:
Current population: 901137
[Rawalpindi is not a city of 1.4 million... ]
Here`s the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawalpindi
[and you`ve quoted no figure for this 20 families and 40 families ...]
This is from a Paki newspaper, no Hindutva mouthpiece: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2006%5C10%5C21%5Cstory_21-10-2006_pg11_7
[I know Islamabad has a low figure of Hindus ... like around a thousand or so... but that is because Rawalpindi has a larger population ... 2000+ ... ]
Wow. 3000+ in a total population of 1.4 + 0.9 = 2.3 million!
Wow! You Muslims MUST be doing something right!
Oops! Sorry! Officially (according to the Pakis) you are NOT a Muslim.
[Similarly I can`t take your word for Chandigarh`s population figures either,]
Here`s the population of Chandigarh as per the last census as posted in http://www.censusindia.net/profiles/chd.html:
Population as of 2001 : 900,914
Number of Muslims: 35,548 (as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India)
[ because nothing you`ve written has given us any real faith in you.]
Yasser, my dear boy. Unlike you Muslims who have to pull lie after lie out of your rear ends to rationalize your prophet`s physical lust towards a little baby when he had grey pubic hair, to his butchering 700 unarmed civilians to his selling their helpless and innocent women and children into slavery, to his million misdeeds, to the million crimes committed by Muslims in India and everywhere else, we Hindus do not have to rationalize anything. We are not trying convince or convert anyone. If we have problems, they are INTERNAL, we do not go out and kill others (unless, of course, you Muslims burn alive many dozens of Hindu men, women and children TO BEGIN WITH).
[Furthermore... just because there are a few Muslims living in Chandigarh (that is if they are) doesn`t mean that they are necessarily Punjabi Muslims.]
Dear boy, give some source of your information, rather than extract it from your rear end. Also, they might all be Tamil Muslims, but they are Muslims nonetheless.
[There are in total close to 3.5- 4 million Pakistani Hindus... if a better census is done.. we`ll discover that there are many more... ]
3.5-4 million out of how many?
Yasser, my dear boy. You better give up on this one as well.
#469 Posted by PewResearch on October 31, 2006 9:13:40 am
Re: # 468 Dost Mittar
``...an obscure article of UN...``
You call an article from the Charter that established the UN `an obscure article` and put it in the same category as `speed limit signs`? The fact that the UN is the sponsor of most of international law today is not important? Enough said on this matter with someone claiming to seek succour under the `law` in a `court` with `incontrovertible` evidence.
``I think that there will be chaos is this world if every nation unilaterally decided that an attack on it has taken place when, for instance, a countrly grants asylum to another country`s enemy.``
I love my mother too! But that has nothing to do with the law. Ciao.
``...an obscure article of UN...``
You call an article from the Charter that established the UN `an obscure article` and put it in the same category as `speed limit signs`? The fact that the UN is the sponsor of most of international law today is not important? Enough said on this matter with someone claiming to seek succour under the `law` in a `court` with `incontrovertible` evidence.
``I think that there will be chaos is this world if every nation unilaterally decided that an attack on it has taken place when, for instance, a countrly grants asylum to another country`s enemy.``
I love my mother too! But that has nothing to do with the law. Ciao.
#468 Posted by dost_mittar on October 31, 2006 8:41:13 am
PewResearch:
It`s a cliche that ignorance of law is no excuse but not all of us know all the laws in the world and you would perhaps grant me that an obscure article of UN is not exactly the same as the laws regarding speed limits.
I think that there will be chaos is this world if every nation unilaterally decided that an attack on it has taken place when, for instance, a countrly grants asylum to another country`s enemy.
It`s a cliche that ignorance of law is no excuse but not all of us know all the laws in the world and you would perhaps grant me that an obscure article of UN is not exactly the same as the laws regarding speed limits.
I think that there will be chaos is this world if every nation unilaterally decided that an attack on it has taken place when, for instance, a countrly grants asylum to another country`s enemy.
#467 Posted by zeemax on October 31, 2006 6:29:27 am
#465 by PewResearch
Interesting observations you make re article 51.
Anyway, never mind, can you comment on what Kofi Annan publicly admitted in media that the US invasion of Iraq was not in conformity with International law.
Meaning that US was in breach of your favourite Article 51 in exercising its` ``inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations.
Or was Iraq a different situation? Or was US acting under a wrong interpretation of your Principle VI of Nuremberg? Or Kofi didn`t know his International law as well as you do?
Which one was it?
Interesting observations you make re article 51.
Anyway, never mind, can you comment on what Kofi Annan publicly admitted in media that the US invasion of Iraq was not in conformity with International law.
Meaning that US was in breach of your favourite Article 51 in exercising its` ``inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations.
Or was Iraq a different situation? Or was US acting under a wrong interpretation of your Principle VI of Nuremberg? Or Kofi didn`t know his International law as well as you do?
Which one was it?
#466 Posted by arjun2 on October 31, 2006 4:31:08 am
#465 by PewResearch on October 31, 2006 4:18am PT
forgive him...it`s the kool-aid...he still thinks the taliban turned down the well meaning advise of the ISI....
Bin Laden`s `prints` seen on ruins of Bamiyan Buddhas
Selim Saheb Ettaba
AFP
October 23, 2006
BAMIYAN, Afghanistan -- In a huge cavity dug into the side of a cliff, workers search through the rubble to exhume the remains of the giant Buddhas of Bamiyan.
At the scene of the crime carried out in 2001 all evidence points to Osama Bin Laden as the mastermind. ``This is the terrorism of the Taliban,`` says Rahim, an official at the work site in front of the empty niche of the biggest of the two statues, one of which stood 55 meters (182 feet) tall and the other 38 meters.
He says that there were Arabs, Pakistanis, and Chechens among the Taliban fanatics who oversaw the demolition of the ancient relics - until then the largest standing Buddhist statues in the world - carried out on the orders of the head of the Taliban regime because they were deemed idolatrous.
One of his colleagues, Abdul Ali, adds: ``The Taliban were the executors, but the masterminds were the Arabs and the Pakistanis.``
forgive him...it`s the kool-aid...he still thinks the taliban turned down the well meaning advise of the ISI....
Bin Laden`s `prints` seen on ruins of Bamiyan Buddhas
Selim Saheb Ettaba
AFP
October 23, 2006
BAMIYAN, Afghanistan -- In a huge cavity dug into the side of a cliff, workers search through the rubble to exhume the remains of the giant Buddhas of Bamiyan.
At the scene of the crime carried out in 2001 all evidence points to Osama Bin Laden as the mastermind. ``This is the terrorism of the Taliban,`` says Rahim, an official at the work site in front of the empty niche of the biggest of the two statues, one of which stood 55 meters (182 feet) tall and the other 38 meters.
He says that there were Arabs, Pakistanis, and Chechens among the Taliban fanatics who oversaw the demolition of the ancient relics - until then the largest standing Buddhist statues in the world - carried out on the orders of the head of the Taliban regime because they were deemed idolatrous.
One of his colleagues, Abdul Ali, adds: ``The Taliban were the executors, but the masterminds were the Arabs and the Pakistanis.``
#465 Posted by PewResearch on October 31, 2006 4:18:02 am
Re: # 453 Dost-Mittar
``Okay, I was not aware of Article 51.``
Okay, next time you find yourself in front of a judge, do not plead innocence on accout of ignorance of the law! It wont work.
``But whether or not WTC attack can be considered to be an attack by Afghanistan (because it had sheltered Al Qaida elements) seems to be somewhat debatable. I would have agreed with you if the attack on WTC was debated in the UN and Afghanistan culpability established; the US attack would then have the added strength of the UN support.``
That`s because ignormauses like you want to debate ad nauseum till the cows come home. Article 51 recognizes that such ignormasuses will also occassionally become members of the Security Council, and that `debate` to `strenghten a case (as you put it)` could be used as a cover to shield the aggressor and prevent the victim nation from exercising their right of self-defense all in the name of `debate`. That is why Article 51 explicitly states (by the way, did you even read it?), `Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, UNTIL (emphasis added) the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security`. In other words, if an attack occurs, the debates can go in the Security Council ad nauseum, but the aggrieved party can take matters into their own hands.
You may not sympathize with the Taleban or their Pakistani handlers, but your ignorance certainly has the effect of providing comfort to them.
``Okay, I was not aware of Article 51.``
Okay, next time you find yourself in front of a judge, do not plead innocence on accout of ignorance of the law! It wont work.
``But whether or not WTC attack can be considered to be an attack by Afghanistan (because it had sheltered Al Qaida elements) seems to be somewhat debatable. I would have agreed with you if the attack on WTC was debated in the UN and Afghanistan culpability established; the US attack would then have the added strength of the UN support.``
That`s because ignormauses like you want to debate ad nauseum till the cows come home. Article 51 recognizes that such ignormasuses will also occassionally become members of the Security Council, and that `debate` to `strenghten a case (as you put it)` could be used as a cover to shield the aggressor and prevent the victim nation from exercising their right of self-defense all in the name of `debate`. That is why Article 51 explicitly states (by the way, did you even read it?), `Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, UNTIL (emphasis added) the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security`. In other words, if an attack occurs, the debates can go in the Security Council ad nauseum, but the aggrieved party can take matters into their own hands.
You may not sympathize with the Taleban or their Pakistani handlers, but your ignorance certainly has the effect of providing comfort to them.
#464 Posted by MantoLives on October 31, 2006 1:00:57 am
Krishna,
Looks like you are pulling these figures out of your rear end... metaphorically speaking ofcourse. I have met Pakistani Punjabi Sikhs and Pakistani Punjabi Hindus... and lots of Pakistani Sindhi Hindus ... but I have never met an Indian Punjabi Muslim (unless you want to count Delhi as part of Punjab which it is not)...
Islamabad is not a city of 1 million... Rawalpindi is not a city of 1.4 million... and you`ve quoted no figure for this 20 families and 40 families ... I know Islamabad has a low figure of Hindus ... like around a thousand or so... but that is because Rawalpindi has a larger population ... 2000+ ...
Similarly I can`t take your word for Chandigarh`s population figures either, because nothing you`ve written has given us any real faith in you. Furthermore... just because there are a few Muslims living in Chandigarh (that is if they are) doesn`t mean that they are necessarily Punjabi Muslims. There are in total close to 3.5- 4 million Pakistani Hindus... if a better census is done.. we`ll discover that there are many more...
Looks like you are pulling these figures out of your rear end... metaphorically speaking ofcourse. I have met Pakistani Punjabi Sikhs and Pakistani Punjabi Hindus... and lots of Pakistani Sindhi Hindus ... but I have never met an Indian Punjabi Muslim (unless you want to count Delhi as part of Punjab which it is not)...
Islamabad is not a city of 1 million... Rawalpindi is not a city of 1.4 million... and you`ve quoted no figure for this 20 families and 40 families ... I know Islamabad has a low figure of Hindus ... like around a thousand or so... but that is because Rawalpindi has a larger population ... 2000+ ...
Similarly I can`t take your word for Chandigarh`s population figures either, because nothing you`ve written has given us any real faith in you. Furthermore... just because there are a few Muslims living in Chandigarh (that is if they are) doesn`t mean that they are necessarily Punjabi Muslims. There are in total close to 3.5- 4 million Pakistani Hindus... if a better census is done.. we`ll discover that there are many more...
#463 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 31, 2006 12:07:17 am
#458 by Mantolives
I`ve said this before, and I`ll repeat it here. The reason you will lose any argument of this nature with me is not because you are not smart - it is because you are trying to defend the indefensible.
Here goes...
[Because ... Islamabad is a city of recent origin... ]
Chandigarh is a city of recent origin as well. Out of a population of 900,00 (roughly the same as Islamabad), there are 25 THOUSAND muslims.
Get the difference?
[and because a great number of the people who work and live in Islamabad commute from the nearby Rawalpindi.... which has a larger Hindu population... and few temples.]
Yes. only 40 Hindu families. Out of a population of 1.4 million!
[However... it is well known that Punjabis killed each other silly during 1947.... hence there are hardly any Muslims in East Punjab ... and unlike us, you actually claim to be Secular... why is that? ]
Read the above. Chandigarh IS in East Punjab. See the difference? THAT`s why.
[Now if you were to go to Karachi or interior Sindh... you would find that the Hindus are a prosperous community there, consisting doctors, businessmen, fashion designers and influential feudals. ]
The Hindu population of Karachi is 0.83%. Now why is that?
I`ve said this before, and I`ll repeat it here. The reason you will lose any argument of this nature with me is not because you are not smart - it is because you are trying to defend the indefensible.
Here goes...
[Because ... Islamabad is a city of recent origin... ]
Chandigarh is a city of recent origin as well. Out of a population of 900,00 (roughly the same as Islamabad), there are 25 THOUSAND muslims.
Get the difference?
[and because a great number of the people who work and live in Islamabad commute from the nearby Rawalpindi.... which has a larger Hindu population... and few temples.]
Yes. only 40 Hindu families. Out of a population of 1.4 million!
[However... it is well known that Punjabis killed each other silly during 1947.... hence there are hardly any Muslims in East Punjab ... and unlike us, you actually claim to be Secular... why is that? ]
Read the above. Chandigarh IS in East Punjab. See the difference? THAT`s why.
[Now if you were to go to Karachi or interior Sindh... you would find that the Hindus are a prosperous community there, consisting doctors, businessmen, fashion designers and influential feudals. ]
The Hindu population of Karachi is 0.83%. Now why is that?
#462 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 11:38:24 pm
#450 by DrDr re #414
So whats ur point? What does this interview with a trailerpark woman prove 2 u?
I thought the point would have been obvious. Muhammad Atta flush with money throwing it around ```left and right``, high on booze and drugs most of the time as were his pals, with an ``unending`` supply of cocaine, with a live-in American girlfriend (not the trailer park trash type either ... mind you).
Not exactly the profile of a Jihadi type about to die in the name of Allah!
So whats ur point? What does this interview with a trailerpark woman prove 2 u?
I thought the point would have been obvious. Muhammad Atta flush with money throwing it around ```left and right``, high on booze and drugs most of the time as were his pals, with an ``unending`` supply of cocaine, with a live-in American girlfriend (not the trailer park trash type either ... mind you).
Not exactly the profile of a Jihadi type about to die in the name of Allah!
#461 Posted by MantoLives on October 30, 2006 11:36:35 pm
For a detailed view... you might wanna read... Charlie Wilson`s War
Hollywood is even doing a movie on it.... Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts and Om Puri.
Hollywood is even doing a movie on it.... Tom Hanks, Julia Roberts and Om Puri.
#460 Posted by MantoLives on October 30, 2006 11:35:12 pm
ballu...
Akhtar Abdul Rahman was the farthest thing from a mullah....
Americans were not naive... and as for creating the virus... you ought to check with faculty up at University of Nebraska... the Jehad syllabus both for Pakistan and Afghanistan was prepared there in the 1980s..
It was Khilafat movement all over again, if you catch my drift.
Akhtar Abdul Rahman was the farthest thing from a mullah....
Americans were not naive... and as for creating the virus... you ought to check with faculty up at University of Nebraska... the Jehad syllabus both for Pakistan and Afghanistan was prepared there in the 1980s..
It was Khilafat movement all over again, if you catch my drift.
#459 Posted by ballukhan on October 30, 2006 11:03:55 pm
Re: # 454
``CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. ``
Again, the same mistake of looking at wrong direction.
The support was indeed in the form of US Dollars, Drug Peddling, Arms Supply......but the ideology of using violent Jehad was a product of Paki Army and its ISI intelligence bosses.
The US thought that the moster of violent Jehadism would only be used to drive out Russians from Afghanistan............they had no idea that violent Jehadism was a virus that had no bounderies and by supporting it only helped in its multiplication............but not its creation..............the creation was a product of the mullah Jernails in the Paki army.............and these Jernail made their ill gotten wealth out of funds for supporting the Afghan Mujahadeen`s violent jehad........... US Did NOT create the virus...........the virus was nurtured by the Jernails.....................
``CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. ``
Again, the same mistake of looking at wrong direction.
The support was indeed in the form of US Dollars, Drug Peddling, Arms Supply......but the ideology of using violent Jehad was a product of Paki Army and its ISI intelligence bosses.
The US thought that the moster of violent Jehadism would only be used to drive out Russians from Afghanistan............they had no idea that violent Jehadism was a virus that had no bounderies and by supporting it only helped in its multiplication............but not its creation..............the creation was a product of the mullah Jernails in the Paki army.............and these Jernail made their ill gotten wealth out of funds for supporting the Afghan Mujahadeen`s violent jehad........... US Did NOT create the virus...........the virus was nurtured by the Jernails.....................
#458 Posted by MantoLives on October 30, 2006 10:46:52 pm
Because ... Islamabad is a city of recent origin... and because a great number of the people who work and live in Islamabad commute from the nearby Rawalpindi.... which has a larger Hindu population... and few temples.
However... it is well known that Punjabis killed each other silly during 1947.... hence there are hardly any Muslims in East Punjab ... and unlike us, you actually claim to be Secular... why is that?
Now if you were to go to Karachi or interior Sindh... you would find that the Hindus are a prosperous community there, consisting doctors, businessmen, fashion designers and influential feudals.
#457 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 30, 2006 10:33:20 pm
#456 by Mantolives
[Diwali is a rare event in Islamabad as there are only a few Hindus in Islamabad. ]
Out of a population of almost a million in the CAPITAL CITY, there are only 25 Hindu families in ISLAMabad.
One wonders why this is so in this most secular of countries.....
[Diwali is a rare event in Islamabad as there are only a few Hindus in Islamabad. ]
Out of a population of almost a million in the CAPITAL CITY, there are only 25 Hindu families in ISLAMabad.
One wonders why this is so in this most secular of countries.....
#456 Posted by MantoLives on October 30, 2006 8:47:05 pm
Diwali at the Pakistan Muslim League House
Diwali celebrated at PML House
Staff Report
ISLAMABAD: A colourful event was held at the Pakistan Muslim League (PML) House on Monday to celebrate Diwali.
Members of the Hindu community from across the country participated in the event where they performed their religious rituals and traditional dances in candlelight to mark the event. Diwali is a rare event in Islamabad as there are only a few Hindus in Islamabad.
A number of office bearers of the party and ministers, including PML Secretary General Mushahid Hussain Syed, Minister for Religious Affairs Ijaz-ul-Haq, State Minister for Information Tariq Azim, Minister for Minorities Affairs Mushtaq Victor and members of the National Assembly (MNAs) Bindara, Donia Aziz, Akram Masih Gill and others were present on the occasion. Officials of the Indian High Commission also participated in the event.
Hussain said that Quaid-e-Azam had envisioned a Pakistan where all the religious minorities enjoyed equal rights. He underlined the importance of inter-faith harmony for the greater prosperity of the nation and announced that the PML would also celebrate the birthday of Baba Gurunanak next week. He said that the minorities played a vital role in building any nation. He said that the present government was allocating high importance to giving all minorities’ equal. Hindus are playing a leading role in country’s economic development and the present government will leave no stone unturned to ensure their safety and well being, he added.
Haq said that the minorities in Pakistan were enjoying equal rights and that they were given equal status in all spheres of life.
PML Minorities Wing President, Akram Masih Gill said that the Muslim League was a liberal, moderate and enlightened political party working for the betterment of country.
Diwali celebrated at PML House
Staff Report
ISLAMABAD: A colourful event was held at the Pakistan Muslim League (PML) House on Monday to celebrate Diwali.
Members of the Hindu community from across the country participated in the event where they performed their religious rituals and traditional dances in candlelight to mark the event. Diwali is a rare event in Islamabad as there are only a few Hindus in Islamabad.
A number of office bearers of the party and ministers, including PML Secretary General Mushahid Hussain Syed, Minister for Religious Affairs Ijaz-ul-Haq, State Minister for Information Tariq Azim, Minister for Minorities Affairs Mushtaq Victor and members of the National Assembly (MNAs) Bindara, Donia Aziz, Akram Masih Gill and others were present on the occasion. Officials of the Indian High Commission also participated in the event.
Hussain said that Quaid-e-Azam had envisioned a Pakistan where all the religious minorities enjoyed equal rights. He underlined the importance of inter-faith harmony for the greater prosperity of the nation and announced that the PML would also celebrate the birthday of Baba Gurunanak next week. He said that the minorities played a vital role in building any nation. He said that the present government was allocating high importance to giving all minorities’ equal. Hindus are playing a leading role in country’s economic development and the present government will leave no stone unturned to ensure their safety and well being, he added.
Haq said that the minorities in Pakistan were enjoying equal rights and that they were given equal status in all spheres of life.
PML Minorities Wing President, Akram Masih Gill said that the Muslim League was a liberal, moderate and enlightened political party working for the betterment of country.
#455 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 7:51:44 pm
BWAHAHAHA...fired rockets into the hill side!!...I can almost imagine mushy singing ``The hills are alive with the sound of paki army rockets``...
82 die as missiles rain on Bajaur: Pakistan owns up to strike; locals blame US drones
By Anwarullah Khan
KHAAR (Bajaur), Oct 30: Eighty-two people were killed, 12 teenagers among them, in an air strike at a religious seminary in Damadola in the Bajaur tribal region on Monday morning.
Pakistan’s military spokesman, Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan, said those killed in the dawn attack were all militants and denied that there had been any collateral damage.
The operation, he said, was launched following intelligence reports that the seminary was being used as a training facility for terrorist activities.
But local residents believe the air strike was carried out by fixed-wing US drones which fired hellfire missiles at the compound, killing all those inside the seminary, including its administrator Maulvi Liaqat Ali.
“Pakistani helicopters arrived 20 minutes later and fired rockets at the hillside,” one resident said.
However, the military spokesman denied US involvement in the attack.
“The operation was launched after confirmed intelligence reports that a number of miscreants were getting terrorist training in a madressah,” Maj-Gen Sultan told a news briefing in Islamabad.
He said that the operation was conducted only by the Pakistan Army, after issuing a warning to the militants and keeping the madressah under watch for a few days.
He reiterated that Pakistan would not allow anyone to use its soil for terrorist activity.
No journalist was allowed entry into Bajaur and passengers entering the tribal region were asked to identify themselves.
Surprisingly, the strike on Damadola, the second since January, came the day the government was expected to sign a peace agreement with militants in Bajaur replicating the September 5 truce reached with militants in North Waziristan.
The peace agreement, had it been signed, would have resulted in the grant of a pardon to the two most wanted militants, Maulana Faqir Mohammad and Maulvi Liaqat. Both had been charged with harbouring and providing shelter to Al Qaeda operatives.
Locals in Chenagai, a small hamlet in Damadola, a village some 13km northeast of the regional headquarters, Khaar, said two loud explosions had woken them up at around 5am.
One missile hit the compound while the other landed in a nearby stream, they said. The seminary was completely flattened. That was followed by a third strike from a second drone, they said.
About 15 minutes later, they said, three helicopter gunships of the Pakistan Army arrived and fired a few rockets that slammed into nearby hills.
“Spy planes (drones) have been flying over the area for the last few days,” Akhunzada, a local resident said.
“There were two big explosions. They were so powerful that they shook the earth and rattled our doors and windows,” Sahibzada Haroon Rashid, the Jamaat-i-Islami member in the lower house of parliament, who lives barely a kilometre away from the bombed-out seminary, told Dawn on telephone from Khaar.
He said the helicopters arrived at the scene a good 15 minutes later, firing a few rockets before flying back.
“Those were small thuds — nothing in comparison to the big explosions that preceded them minutes earlier,” he said.
Like many other residents, Sahibzada Haroon is convinced the seminary was bombed by US drones and Pakistan owned the air strikes up to cover up the whole incident and avoid embarrassment.
“Absolutely. I have no doubt in my mind that it was done by the Americans and we are now making a futile attempt to cover it up,” he said.
Local residents rushed to the scene of the bombing and pulled out the dead. Few bodies were found to be unharmed as locals collected mutilated body parts from under the single-storey building that was the headquarters of the defunct Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi.
Locals admitted that it also served as a meeting-point for militants waging ‘jihad’ against the US-led Nato forces in the neighbouring eastern Afghan province of Kunar.
Apparently only three of the 83 struck by the air raid had survived with wounds. Two of them died later at a local hospital, taking the total death toll to 82. However, only 55 of those killed could be accounted for; the remaining victims were said to have perished in the deadly bombing.
Forty of those killed were buried in a nearby graveyard while 15 bodies were sent to their respective villages. While most of those killed were said to be young men in their twenties, 12 of them were said to be children in their early teens.
There was no ‘high-value target’ or any foreign militant among those killed, local residents and government officials said.
Fugitive cleric Maulana Faqir Mohammad and his deputy Maulvi Liaqat Ali had escaped the US missile attack in the Damadola village in January this year that had left 18 civilians, mostly women and children, dead.
The January bombing and the death of innocent civilians had triggered public backlash, forcing the government to lodge a protest with the United States. The US later said the strike had been aimed at killing Al Qaeda No 2, Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, who was expected to turn up there for a dinner meeting.
Shops and markets were closed in the entire Bajaur region as news of the latest bombing spread. Thousands of angry Bajauris turned up at the first funeral of about 20 victims at 9am.
Maulana Faqir Mohammad, in his emotional speech, vowed to continue ‘jihad’ against the US and alleged that the bombing was an attempt to wreck peace in the tribal region. He announced that a black day would be observed on Tuesday and asked his followers to vent their anger in a peaceful manner.
Senior NWFP Minister Sirajul Haq also rushed to Bajaur and announced quitting his office in the MMA government in the NWFP. But, much to his embarrassment, his party chief, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, and Chief Minister Akram Durrani made it clear later the move had been on the anvil for some time and was not linked to the bombing.
82 die as missiles rain on Bajaur: Pakistan owns up to strike; locals blame US drones
By Anwarullah Khan
KHAAR (Bajaur), Oct 30: Eighty-two people were killed, 12 teenagers among them, in an air strike at a religious seminary in Damadola in the Bajaur tribal region on Monday morning.
Pakistan’s military spokesman, Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan, said those killed in the dawn attack were all militants and denied that there had been any collateral damage.
The operation, he said, was launched following intelligence reports that the seminary was being used as a training facility for terrorist activities.
But local residents believe the air strike was carried out by fixed-wing US drones which fired hellfire missiles at the compound, killing all those inside the seminary, including its administrator Maulvi Liaqat Ali.
“Pakistani helicopters arrived 20 minutes later and fired rockets at the hillside,” one resident said.
However, the military spokesman denied US involvement in the attack.
“The operation was launched after confirmed intelligence reports that a number of miscreants were getting terrorist training in a madressah,” Maj-Gen Sultan told a news briefing in Islamabad.
He said that the operation was conducted only by the Pakistan Army, after issuing a warning to the militants and keeping the madressah under watch for a few days.
He reiterated that Pakistan would not allow anyone to use its soil for terrorist activity.
No journalist was allowed entry into Bajaur and passengers entering the tribal region were asked to identify themselves.
Surprisingly, the strike on Damadola, the second since January, came the day the government was expected to sign a peace agreement with militants in Bajaur replicating the September 5 truce reached with militants in North Waziristan.
The peace agreement, had it been signed, would have resulted in the grant of a pardon to the two most wanted militants, Maulana Faqir Mohammad and Maulvi Liaqat. Both had been charged with harbouring and providing shelter to Al Qaeda operatives.
Locals in Chenagai, a small hamlet in Damadola, a village some 13km northeast of the regional headquarters, Khaar, said two loud explosions had woken them up at around 5am.
One missile hit the compound while the other landed in a nearby stream, they said. The seminary was completely flattened. That was followed by a third strike from a second drone, they said.
About 15 minutes later, they said, three helicopter gunships of the Pakistan Army arrived and fired a few rockets that slammed into nearby hills.
“Spy planes (drones) have been flying over the area for the last few days,” Akhunzada, a local resident said.
“There were two big explosions. They were so powerful that they shook the earth and rattled our doors and windows,” Sahibzada Haroon Rashid, the Jamaat-i-Islami member in the lower house of parliament, who lives barely a kilometre away from the bombed-out seminary, told Dawn on telephone from Khaar.
He said the helicopters arrived at the scene a good 15 minutes later, firing a few rockets before flying back.
“Those were small thuds — nothing in comparison to the big explosions that preceded them minutes earlier,” he said.
Like many other residents, Sahibzada Haroon is convinced the seminary was bombed by US drones and Pakistan owned the air strikes up to cover up the whole incident and avoid embarrassment.
“Absolutely. I have no doubt in my mind that it was done by the Americans and we are now making a futile attempt to cover it up,” he said.
Local residents rushed to the scene of the bombing and pulled out the dead. Few bodies were found to be unharmed as locals collected mutilated body parts from under the single-storey building that was the headquarters of the defunct Tehrik Nifaz-i-Shariat Muhammadi.
Locals admitted that it also served as a meeting-point for militants waging ‘jihad’ against the US-led Nato forces in the neighbouring eastern Afghan province of Kunar.
Apparently only three of the 83 struck by the air raid had survived with wounds. Two of them died later at a local hospital, taking the total death toll to 82. However, only 55 of those killed could be accounted for; the remaining victims were said to have perished in the deadly bombing.
Forty of those killed were buried in a nearby graveyard while 15 bodies were sent to their respective villages. While most of those killed were said to be young men in their twenties, 12 of them were said to be children in their early teens.
There was no ‘high-value target’ or any foreign militant among those killed, local residents and government officials said.
Fugitive cleric Maulana Faqir Mohammad and his deputy Maulvi Liaqat Ali had escaped the US missile attack in the Damadola village in January this year that had left 18 civilians, mostly women and children, dead.
The January bombing and the death of innocent civilians had triggered public backlash, forcing the government to lodge a protest with the United States. The US later said the strike had been aimed at killing Al Qaeda No 2, Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, who was expected to turn up there for a dinner meeting.
Shops and markets were closed in the entire Bajaur region as news of the latest bombing spread. Thousands of angry Bajauris turned up at the first funeral of about 20 victims at 9am.
Maulana Faqir Mohammad, in his emotional speech, vowed to continue ‘jihad’ against the US and alleged that the bombing was an attempt to wreck peace in the tribal region. He announced that a black day would be observed on Tuesday and asked his followers to vent their anger in a peaceful manner.
Senior NWFP Minister Sirajul Haq also rushed to Bajaur and announced quitting his office in the MMA government in the NWFP. But, much to his embarrassment, his party chief, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, and Chief Minister Akram Durrani made it clear later the move had been on the anvil for some time and was not linked to the bombing.
#454 Posted by bulleya on October 30, 2006 6:15:44 pm
...........following is how the taliban were created........again and again, the usa creates its own enemies, in short-term adventures........from the horse`s mouth, so to speak......i wonder if brzenski would have made these comments after 9/11.........
``Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998
Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs [``From the Shadows``], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
Brzezinski: It isn`t quite that. We didn`t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn`t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don`t regret anything today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
remaining at http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html.............
........pakistan made the big mistake of becoming a front-line state for the usa, at that time.........it is making the same mistake again..........
``Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998
Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs [``From the Shadows``], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
Brzezinski: It isn`t quite that. We didn`t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn`t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don`t regret anything today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
remaining at http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html.............
........pakistan made the big mistake of becoming a front-line state for the usa, at that time.........it is making the same mistake again..........
#453 Posted by dost_mittar on October 30, 2006 5:39:14 pm
PewResearch:
Okay, I was not aware of Article 51. But whether or not WTC attack can be considered to be an attack by Afghanistan (because it had sheltered Al Qaida elements) seems to be somewhat debatable. I would have agreed with you if the attack on WTC was debated in the UN and Afghanistan culpability established; the US attack would then have the added strength of the UN support.
Please do not think for a moment that I support the Taliban regime or deny Pakistan`s complete complicity in conceiving, nurturing and ceaselessly supporting the Taleban even when it declared its support for the US-led alliance.
Okay, I was not aware of Article 51. But whether or not WTC attack can be considered to be an attack by Afghanistan (because it had sheltered Al Qaida elements) seems to be somewhat debatable. I would have agreed with you if the attack on WTC was debated in the UN and Afghanistan culpability established; the US attack would then have the added strength of the UN support.
Please do not think for a moment that I support the Taliban regime or deny Pakistan`s complete complicity in conceiving, nurturing and ceaselessly supporting the Taleban even when it declared its support for the US-led alliance.
#452 Posted by ballukhan on October 30, 2006 3:21:41 pm
Re: # 446
``HP was right about the Pak/Afghan policy.``
HP is a terror master and he knows it very well that now the battle is going to engulf Pakistan and its testerone high macho jehadis willing to fight their final battle for their ``pureland``.
Infact every PAkistani who thinks that it is his destiny to blow himself to continue the religious war would agree to the analyses offered by the CKP Jehadi master.
``HP was right about the Pak/Afghan policy.``
HP is a terror master and he knows it very well that now the battle is going to engulf Pakistan and its testerone high macho jehadis willing to fight their final battle for their ``pureland``.
Infact every PAkistani who thinks that it is his destiny to blow himself to continue the religious war would agree to the analyses offered by the CKP Jehadi master.
#451 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 2:35:16 pm
mosque bombed in the land of the pure? wonder how HP will spin this into a great victory for the land of the pure..
Tribals vow to avenge killings
Gunship helicopters Monday destroyed a madrassa allegedly used as a training camp in Bajaur agency, killing up to 80 suspected militants as an American TV channel claimed that US drones launched the operation after reports of presence of Ayman Al-Zawahiri in the madrassa.
DG ISPR refused to comment on the TV report in private TV channel. However he said that all the resources were at Pak Army’s disposal. He refuted reports of killing of mastermind of British plane plot in the attack. “I cannot say anything on this as such reports can be fabricated by anyone”, he said talking to a private TV channel.
Eyewitnesses said several gunship helicopters bombed the madrassa at around 5.12 am when people were preparing for Fajr prayers.
The gunships fired three bombs at different portions of the madrassa including mosque killing all the people inside.
The main mosque and two residential portions of madrassa were also razed to ground.
Maulana Liaqat, the deputy leader of banned TNSM, was among those killed in the strike.
Bodies of almost all the victims were reduced to bits and pieces while the mosque and nearby residential compound were destroyed, witnesses said.
According to eyewitnesses around six injured students were shifted to the Agency Headquarter Hospital in Khar. However, the hospital administration said that only three persons were admitted, of which two later succumbed to injuries while the third was in serious condition.
Besides Maulana Liaqat, who was wanted for his alleged links with Al-Qaeda, many other leading religious figures like Maulana Gul Sher and Maulana Amir Zaman were also killed in the strike. Majority of the killed persons were youth enrolled in madrassa.
There were conflicting views about the origin of the killed students as local tribesmen claimed that almost all of them were locals. The government officials were of the view that some of them were from Afghanistan.
The bombed Madrassa is situated one kilometer away from Damadola village, which came under a similar strike on January 12 this year.
NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq, MNA from Bajaur Agency Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid, leader of banned TSNM Maulana Faqir Muhammad and others rushed to the spot.
NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq led the funeral prayers and later bodies of the dead were dispatched to their native villages in all over the area.
Soon after the collective funeral prayer, people from across Bajaur Agency staged demonstrations in Khar.
Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid, Khan Bahadar, Maulana Ahmad Noor, traders and social leaders also addressed the protest rally.
They alleged that present government, particularly the armed forces, had failed in safeguarding the national interests and the geographical borders of the country. (This means it was a CIA drone..)
Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid said that as a mark of protest he had tendered resignation from the National Assembly.
The leaders of Jamiatul Ulema Islam (Fazl) including MNA Maulana Mohammad Sadiq and Senator Rashid Ahmad along with Pakistan People’s Party’s Akhunzada Chattan, at a press conference denounced the air raid and asked for early termination of diplomatic ties with the US.
The political leaders and trade circles have announced complete strike today (Tuesday) against the bombing. They also announced to hold a protest rally in Khar.
Our monitoring desk adds: A US TV channel reported Monday that US helicopters took part in the operation against Al-Qaeda leader Aymen al-Zawahri, on the intelligence reports that he was present in the madrassa.
The channel added that five Al-Qaeda members had died in the attack, however, it could not confirm Aymen Zawahri’s death.
A ‘drone’ fired missiles on the madrassa, the channel reported.
Talking to a private TV channel, DG ISPR, Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan denied involvement of US forces in the operation.
“We had information of a militant training camp in madrassa, but there was no information of Aymen al-Zawahri’s presence”, he said.
The raid was conducted by Pakistani forces, he maintained.
RAO KHALID adds from ISLAMABAD: Meanwhile talking to The Nation DG ISPR said that the identity of 80 people killed in Khar had not been ascertained. Sultan said that ongoing investigations would reveal the true identity of the miscreants.
“At the moment, I cannot say whether they were Taliban or Al-Qaeda men but investigations from the injured, taken into custody from there, would help us in determining their true identity,” Shaukat told The Nation.
The DG ISPR said that 80 under training miscreants were killed during the operation that included locals and foreigners aged between 20 to 30 years. He, however, was not sure about the number of foreigners killed during the operation.
DG ISPR said that a terrorist camp was set up under the garb of madrassa by one Maulvi Liaqat at Khar who had been warned to stop the illegal activity forthwith.
“They were under observation for the last two months. They had been warned to end the terrorists training activities but they did not heed the warnings,” Shaukat said.
The camp was targeted Monday morning by the security forces and the reports revealed that Maulvi Liaqat was among those killed.
When asked about the details of the operation, Sultan said, ground troops did not take part in the operation and it was carried out from the air by helicopters.
He dispelled the impression that NATO forces carried out the operation saying, “only Pakistani security forces were involved in the operation.”
Online adds: Director General ISPR said that local people and foreigners were among the dead and no Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were among the dead.
Addressing a Press conference Sultan further said there were no women and children dead in this operation.
AFP adds: “Most of the compound was destroyed.”
“There was no collateral damage,” he added.
Twenty bodies wrapped in sheets were laid out for funeral prayers and people pulled dozens more from the rubble and put them in sacks, an AFP correspondent said.
Siraj-ul-Haq, the deputy chief minister of North West Frontier Province, which borders the area, said after attending the funeral that he was resigning “to express solidarity with those innocent 80 students who died.”
“This attack has been launched by America and its allies which includes Pakistan,” he told reporters in the provincial capital Peshawar. “Only 45 bodies were in shape. The rest have been reduced to bits and pieces.”
Meanwhile around 200 bearded Islamist students burned a US flag in the southern port city of Karachi.
The attack came two days after thousands of pro-militant tribesmen gathered in Bajaur agency and chanted their support for Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mullah Omar, security sources said.
Sultan said the attack was not linked to the meeting and was based on prior intelligence.
Al-Qaeda’s Egyptian deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri was said to have escaped a US missile attack about two kilometres (over a mile) away at Damadola village in Bajaur agency in January.
Protesters and a Pakistani official blamed the United States for the airstrike.
The provincial assembly also condemned the attack.
Expressing resentment over the bombing Maulana Faqir Mohammad said the strike was part of a conspiracy to kill innocent people. He claimed there was no foreigner or terrorist amongst the victims.
Maulvi Faqir Mohammed, flanked by other clerics, who led the rally and who had links with the dead cleric Liaqat, said that the dead were civilians and vowed that their deaths would be “avenged”.
Meanwhile, NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq in a hurriedly called Press Conference at Peshawar Press Club announced to resign from his office as protest over the Bajaur attack where over eighty persons have been killed.
“Now it seems hard for me to remain silent over frequent brutalities against the Muslim Ummah in general and countrymen in particular,” Siraj said after attending the collective funeral prayers of the victims of Bajaur military action, in Chingai on Monday.
Sirajul Haq, who is also Provincial Amir of Jamaat-i-Islami, later told the media that now he would concentrate on bringing an Islamic revolution and also serve the party cause.
He alleged that the military action on the madrassa was conducted by the US and its allied forces based in Afghanistan and that there is no truth in the statement of ISPR DG Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan that the Pakistan armed forces carried out the operation. He further claimed that the Pakistan army cannot show such tyranny and brutality to kill its own innocent citizens
Further commenting on ISPR DG Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan’s admittance that armed forces conducted the operation in Bajaur Agency, Siraj said, “The federal government must quit power over this confession.”
He dispelled Gen. Shaukat’s claim that the bombed madrassa was being used for terrorist activities, saying “It was a common madrassa and all of the victims were young students.”
Sirajul Haq disclosed that MMA had decided to observe a Protest Day today against the military action, which killed over 80 precious lives.
He asked for an immediate end to the military action and apprehended similar strikes against Darul Uloom Haqqania, Jamia Banori Town, Jamia Ashrafia and other places.
Although Siraj linked his resignation to the military action in Bajaur, yet party Amir Qazi Hussain Ahmad claimed the party Shura had asked Siraj to keep one of the two offices, party or ministry.
Tribals vow to avenge killings
Gunship helicopters Monday destroyed a madrassa allegedly used as a training camp in Bajaur agency, killing up to 80 suspected militants as an American TV channel claimed that US drones launched the operation after reports of presence of Ayman Al-Zawahiri in the madrassa.
DG ISPR refused to comment on the TV report in private TV channel. However he said that all the resources were at Pak Army’s disposal. He refuted reports of killing of mastermind of British plane plot in the attack. “I cannot say anything on this as such reports can be fabricated by anyone”, he said talking to a private TV channel.
Eyewitnesses said several gunship helicopters bombed the madrassa at around 5.12 am when people were preparing for Fajr prayers.
The gunships fired three bombs at different portions of the madrassa including mosque killing all the people inside.
The main mosque and two residential portions of madrassa were also razed to ground.
Maulana Liaqat, the deputy leader of banned TNSM, was among those killed in the strike.
Bodies of almost all the victims were reduced to bits and pieces while the mosque and nearby residential compound were destroyed, witnesses said.
According to eyewitnesses around six injured students were shifted to the Agency Headquarter Hospital in Khar. However, the hospital administration said that only three persons were admitted, of which two later succumbed to injuries while the third was in serious condition.
Besides Maulana Liaqat, who was wanted for his alleged links with Al-Qaeda, many other leading religious figures like Maulana Gul Sher and Maulana Amir Zaman were also killed in the strike. Majority of the killed persons were youth enrolled in madrassa.
There were conflicting views about the origin of the killed students as local tribesmen claimed that almost all of them were locals. The government officials were of the view that some of them were from Afghanistan.
The bombed Madrassa is situated one kilometer away from Damadola village, which came under a similar strike on January 12 this year.
NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq, MNA from Bajaur Agency Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid, leader of banned TSNM Maulana Faqir Muhammad and others rushed to the spot.
NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq led the funeral prayers and later bodies of the dead were dispatched to their native villages in all over the area.
Soon after the collective funeral prayer, people from across Bajaur Agency staged demonstrations in Khar.
Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid, Khan Bahadar, Maulana Ahmad Noor, traders and social leaders also addressed the protest rally.
They alleged that present government, particularly the armed forces, had failed in safeguarding the national interests and the geographical borders of the country. (This means it was a CIA drone..)
Sahibzada Haroonur Rashid said that as a mark of protest he had tendered resignation from the National Assembly.
The leaders of Jamiatul Ulema Islam (Fazl) including MNA Maulana Mohammad Sadiq and Senator Rashid Ahmad along with Pakistan People’s Party’s Akhunzada Chattan, at a press conference denounced the air raid and asked for early termination of diplomatic ties with the US.
The political leaders and trade circles have announced complete strike today (Tuesday) against the bombing. They also announced to hold a protest rally in Khar.
Our monitoring desk adds: A US TV channel reported Monday that US helicopters took part in the operation against Al-Qaeda leader Aymen al-Zawahri, on the intelligence reports that he was present in the madrassa.
The channel added that five Al-Qaeda members had died in the attack, however, it could not confirm Aymen Zawahri’s death.
A ‘drone’ fired missiles on the madrassa, the channel reported.
Talking to a private TV channel, DG ISPR, Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan denied involvement of US forces in the operation.
“We had information of a militant training camp in madrassa, but there was no information of Aymen al-Zawahri’s presence”, he said.
The raid was conducted by Pakistani forces, he maintained.
RAO KHALID adds from ISLAMABAD: Meanwhile talking to The Nation DG ISPR said that the identity of 80 people killed in Khar had not been ascertained. Sultan said that ongoing investigations would reveal the true identity of the miscreants.
“At the moment, I cannot say whether they were Taliban or Al-Qaeda men but investigations from the injured, taken into custody from there, would help us in determining their true identity,” Shaukat told The Nation.
The DG ISPR said that 80 under training miscreants were killed during the operation that included locals and foreigners aged between 20 to 30 years. He, however, was not sure about the number of foreigners killed during the operation.
DG ISPR said that a terrorist camp was set up under the garb of madrassa by one Maulvi Liaqat at Khar who had been warned to stop the illegal activity forthwith.
“They were under observation for the last two months. They had been warned to end the terrorists training activities but they did not heed the warnings,” Shaukat said.
The camp was targeted Monday morning by the security forces and the reports revealed that Maulvi Liaqat was among those killed.
When asked about the details of the operation, Sultan said, ground troops did not take part in the operation and it was carried out from the air by helicopters.
He dispelled the impression that NATO forces carried out the operation saying, “only Pakistani security forces were involved in the operation.”
Online adds: Director General ISPR said that local people and foreigners were among the dead and no Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants were among the dead.
Addressing a Press conference Sultan further said there were no women and children dead in this operation.
AFP adds: “Most of the compound was destroyed.”
“There was no collateral damage,” he added.
Twenty bodies wrapped in sheets were laid out for funeral prayers and people pulled dozens more from the rubble and put them in sacks, an AFP correspondent said.
Siraj-ul-Haq, the deputy chief minister of North West Frontier Province, which borders the area, said after attending the funeral that he was resigning “to express solidarity with those innocent 80 students who died.”
“This attack has been launched by America and its allies which includes Pakistan,” he told reporters in the provincial capital Peshawar. “Only 45 bodies were in shape. The rest have been reduced to bits and pieces.”
Meanwhile around 200 bearded Islamist students burned a US flag in the southern port city of Karachi.
The attack came two days after thousands of pro-militant tribesmen gathered in Bajaur agency and chanted their support for Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mullah Omar, security sources said.
Sultan said the attack was not linked to the meeting and was based on prior intelligence.
Al-Qaeda’s Egyptian deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri was said to have escaped a US missile attack about two kilometres (over a mile) away at Damadola village in Bajaur agency in January.
Protesters and a Pakistani official blamed the United States for the airstrike.
The provincial assembly also condemned the attack.
Expressing resentment over the bombing Maulana Faqir Mohammad said the strike was part of a conspiracy to kill innocent people. He claimed there was no foreigner or terrorist amongst the victims.
Maulvi Faqir Mohammed, flanked by other clerics, who led the rally and who had links with the dead cleric Liaqat, said that the dead were civilians and vowed that their deaths would be “avenged”.
Meanwhile, NWFP Senior Minister Sirajul Haq in a hurriedly called Press Conference at Peshawar Press Club announced to resign from his office as protest over the Bajaur attack where over eighty persons have been killed.
“Now it seems hard for me to remain silent over frequent brutalities against the Muslim Ummah in general and countrymen in particular,” Siraj said after attending the collective funeral prayers of the victims of Bajaur military action, in Chingai on Monday.
Sirajul Haq, who is also Provincial Amir of Jamaat-i-Islami, later told the media that now he would concentrate on bringing an Islamic revolution and also serve the party cause.
He alleged that the military action on the madrassa was conducted by the US and its allied forces based in Afghanistan and that there is no truth in the statement of ISPR DG Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan that the Pakistan armed forces carried out the operation. He further claimed that the Pakistan army cannot show such tyranny and brutality to kill its own innocent citizens
Further commenting on ISPR DG Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan’s admittance that armed forces conducted the operation in Bajaur Agency, Siraj said, “The federal government must quit power over this confession.”
He dispelled Gen. Shaukat’s claim that the bombed madrassa was being used for terrorist activities, saying “It was a common madrassa and all of the victims were young students.”
Sirajul Haq disclosed that MMA had decided to observe a Protest Day today against the military action, which killed over 80 precious lives.
He asked for an immediate end to the military action and apprehended similar strikes against Darul Uloom Haqqania, Jamia Banori Town, Jamia Ashrafia and other places.
Although Siraj linked his resignation to the military action in Bajaur, yet party Amir Qazi Hussain Ahmad claimed the party Shura had asked Siraj to keep one of the two offices, party or ministry.
#450 Posted by DrDr on October 30, 2006 12:13:10 pm
#414
So whats ur point? What does this interview with a trailerpark woman prove 2 u?
So whats ur point? What does this interview with a trailerpark woman prove 2 u?
#449 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 11:30:06 am
#448 by mohar11 on October 30, 2006 11:13am PT
fundo group and pro-american group
It`s more like the allah-will-protect-us-from-american-bombs group v/s the we-may-talk-big-but-we-are-scared-shitless-of-american-bombs group..
fundo group and pro-american group
It`s more like the allah-will-protect-us-from-american-bombs group v/s the we-may-talk-big-but-we-are-scared-shitless-of-american-bombs group..
#448 Posted by mohar11 on October 30, 2006 11:13:44 am
Re: # 446
looks like paki establishment is split between two groups: fundo group and pro-american group... both groups are pulling and pushing... if one group is setting up ``truce`` with taliban, other group is bombing the hell out of them...
the establishment seems to be divided against itself...
looks like paki establishment is split between two groups: fundo group and pro-american group... both groups are pulling and pushing... if one group is setting up ``truce`` with taliban, other group is bombing the hell out of them...
the establishment seems to be divided against itself...
#447 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 11:08:19 am
Re: # 444 Zeemax
``Again, did Taliban carry out an armed attack against US?``
Their protectees (The Al Qaeda) did! That is all that is needed under Article 51 for a retaliation against Taliban in self-defense under the law in this case, since you and Dost Mittar were asserting that the US did not have any legal cover to go into Afghanistan.
``Again, did Taliban carry out an armed attack against US?``
Their protectees (The Al Qaeda) did! That is all that is needed under Article 51 for a retaliation against Taliban in self-defense under the law in this case, since you and Dost Mittar were asserting that the US did not have any legal cover to go into Afghanistan.
#446 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 10:36:36 am
#445 by arjun2
Details will emerge. It is a bit premature to comment yet. It looks like the peace agreement is finished, obviously not by Pak, but by someone else. Another tribe was supposed to sign-in today. Pak couldn`t have done it particularly with this timing and someone else didn`t like the proceedings. HP was right about the Pak/Afghan policy.
Details will emerge. It is a bit premature to comment yet. It looks like the peace agreement is finished, obviously not by Pak, but by someone else. Another tribe was supposed to sign-in today. Pak couldn`t have done it particularly with this timing and someone else didn`t like the proceedings. HP was right about the Pak/Afghan policy.
#445 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 10:29:13 am
so let me get this straight: the US is whacking pakis on paki soil and the paki army is letting itself take the blame for bombing a madrassah...
and, according to HP, Pakiland`s afghan strategy has somehow resulted in some great victory for the land of the pure?
there`s deluded...and there`s paki-deluded..
and, according to HP, Pakiland`s afghan strategy has somehow resulted in some great victory for the land of the pure?
there`s deluded...and there`s paki-deluded..
#444 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 9:58:25 am
#443 by PewResearch
Look pew, I admire your looking for a legal case as you appear to be a logical person, but let`s leave conjectures out of it and just concentrate on the letter and spirit of the UN Charter if you like law so much, and if you insist, even the article VI of the 1950 Nuremberg principles which were indeed adopted by UN General Assembly.
Now the operative para of the article 51 in this case says:
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations...
So it points to armed attack. Again, did Taliban carry out an armed attack against US?
The Principle VI of the 1950 Nuremberg Principles, indeed includes a) Crimes against peace:(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;(ii)Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the actsmentioned under (i).
But my friend all these ares punishable as crimes under international law.
No?
Where does the above allow aggression against another country for their violation?
Of-course you can make the argument that their towers came down and people jumped out of windows and all that so they retaliated. I`ll respect that argument and fully accept it. But it was not within the farthest reaches of any international law.
Look pew, I admire your looking for a legal case as you appear to be a logical person, but let`s leave conjectures out of it and just concentrate on the letter and spirit of the UN Charter if you like law so much, and if you insist, even the article VI of the 1950 Nuremberg principles which were indeed adopted by UN General Assembly.
Now the operative para of the article 51 in this case says:
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations...
So it points to armed attack. Again, did Taliban carry out an armed attack against US?
The Principle VI of the 1950 Nuremberg Principles, indeed includes a) Crimes against peace:(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;(ii)Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the actsmentioned under (i).
But my friend all these ares punishable as crimes under international law.
No?
Where does the above allow aggression against another country for their violation?
Of-course you can make the argument that their towers came down and people jumped out of windows and all that so they retaliated. I`ll respect that argument and fully accept it. But it was not within the farthest reaches of any international law.
#443 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 9:27:40 am
Re: # 442
``Mullah Omar`s offer to hand Usama over to the Hague complied with international law``
By 9/11 this did not matter. The matter was now how to remove Al Qaeda, their camps, their infrastructure from Afghanistan. By the time of 9/11, Mullah Omar`s offer on handing over Osama were not sufficient since the situation had changed from (i) attacking an embassy to (ii) attacking the national territory of the US. Under Article 51, the US could act in self-defence. The matter after 9/11 was not just handing over Osama, but the violation of the territory of the US thereby invoking an Article 51 response.
So, your logic is eminently flawed on this one.
You also chose to ignore the whole Article 51 rationale and instead focused on Principle VI. I introduced the Nuremberg Principles as a possible legal code to charge President Bush and his Administration under if the world believes that he acted illegally. If the world believes that Bush acted illegally in Afghanistan, then he could be tried under Principle III of the Nuremberg Principles (whose very existence you were unaware of until at least `on October 30, 2006 9:07am PT`! Yet you persist in crudely using this new-found information!). Nobody has made the General Assembly move on that! A little education is very dangerous as you demonstrate!
Principle III states:
The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.
``Mullah Omar`s offer to hand Usama over to the Hague complied with international law``
By 9/11 this did not matter. The matter was now how to remove Al Qaeda, their camps, their infrastructure from Afghanistan. By the time of 9/11, Mullah Omar`s offer on handing over Osama were not sufficient since the situation had changed from (i) attacking an embassy to (ii) attacking the national territory of the US. Under Article 51, the US could act in self-defence. The matter after 9/11 was not just handing over Osama, but the violation of the territory of the US thereby invoking an Article 51 response.
So, your logic is eminently flawed on this one.
You also chose to ignore the whole Article 51 rationale and instead focused on Principle VI. I introduced the Nuremberg Principles as a possible legal code to charge President Bush and his Administration under if the world believes that he acted illegally. If the world believes that Bush acted illegally in Afghanistan, then he could be tried under Principle III of the Nuremberg Principles (whose very existence you were unaware of until at least `on October 30, 2006 9:07am PT`! Yet you persist in crudely using this new-found information!). Nobody has made the General Assembly move on that! A little education is very dangerous as you demonstrate!
Principle III states:
The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.
#442 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 9:07:08 am
Aah I see ... Principle VI of the 1950 Nuremberg Principles.
But you very conveniently missed the first line and dutifully reproduced what followed:
Principle VI The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
This principle is to put on trial and punish alleged crimes under international law, and not to attack a whole country. Mullah Omar`s offer to hand Usama over to the Hague complied with international law, but that was not good enough for your master.
Now, get lost.
But you very conveniently missed the first line and dutifully reproduced what followed:
Principle VI The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
This principle is to put on trial and punish alleged crimes under international law, and not to attack a whole country. Mullah Omar`s offer to hand Usama over to the Hague complied with international law, but that was not good enough for your master.
Now, get lost.
#441 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 30, 2006 8:58:47 am
#428 by Mantolives
[The question my dear friend is not whether the Pakistan cricket team had liberal aunties...
The question is when and how will you- a Hindu fascist- will declare that Muhammad Azharuddin, Zaheer Khan, Muhammad Kaif and Irfan Pathan ... the pride and joy of Indian cricket are actually non-Indians... ]
They are Indian citizens who have been born into the Arab goo chaater culture.
[And no my aunt would not have named me Gopinath... despite her liberal communist Indo-phile and Hindu-Phile views... because.. Gopinath is a Hindu name ... and I am not a Hindu. Simple.]
Finally, we have the admission. No - names emanating from the Indian soil are just ``Indian`` names. And that is PRECISELY the point. A name like ``Ajay``, ``Akash``, ``Badal`` etc. - what does that have to do with religion? MOST North Indian names, and many South Indian names are simply derived from Sankrit. That`s all. Nothing to do with religion.
Rather that argue with me, ask yourself - WHY does a Sanskrit-derived name appear to be ``Hindu`` to Muslims? What heritage are they trying to deny? And what heritage are they trying to adopt?
It is, my dear boy, the famous ``Arab-goo-chaater`` syndrome. Like it or not.
[Does that make me a lesser human being, lesser South Asian, lesser son of the Indus soil, ``Arab goo-chater`` ... You seem to think so... and today it is the names. Tomorrow you may ask Muslims to leave Islam because it is alien to the subcontinent... which is why I thank god I am not from the same country as you... ]
Me too. God bless Jinnah.
[And lets assume... that it is the latent wish of a common South Asian Muslim to be more Arab that forces him to name his children with ``Arab`` names ]
It is, my dear boy, it is.
[(which I have proved are as Pakistani, Indian, American as they are Arab)]
What proof? ``Yasser`` is an Arab name. ``Vladimir`` is a Russian name. Period.
[... why must it bite you...]
It doesn`t bite me at all. If sons of the soil are trying to pretend to belong to alien heritages, I really don`t care. But don`t accuse the general population if they look to you as alien and separate from them - YOU started the process. YOU are responsible for it.
And it makes my ``Arab goo chaater`` comment completely valid.
[If a person is a tax paying, law abiding citizen of your country ... you can hardly impose such cultural fascism on them.]
Islam may have forced IT`S cultural fascism on YOU, but in India, there is nobody forcing anybody to name their children in a certain way. We Hindus are democratic by nature and instinct, as opposed to you Muslims. India is a democracy. Pakiland is not.
[The question my dear friend is not whether the Pakistan cricket team had liberal aunties...
The question is when and how will you- a Hindu fascist- will declare that Muhammad Azharuddin, Zaheer Khan, Muhammad Kaif and Irfan Pathan ... the pride and joy of Indian cricket are actually non-Indians... ]
They are Indian citizens who have been born into the Arab goo chaater culture.
[And no my aunt would not have named me Gopinath... despite her liberal communist Indo-phile and Hindu-Phile views... because.. Gopinath is a Hindu name ... and I am not a Hindu. Simple.]
Finally, we have the admission. No - names emanating from the Indian soil are just ``Indian`` names. And that is PRECISELY the point. A name like ``Ajay``, ``Akash``, ``Badal`` etc. - what does that have to do with religion? MOST North Indian names, and many South Indian names are simply derived from Sankrit. That`s all. Nothing to do with religion.
Rather that argue with me, ask yourself - WHY does a Sanskrit-derived name appear to be ``Hindu`` to Muslims? What heritage are they trying to deny? And what heritage are they trying to adopt?
It is, my dear boy, the famous ``Arab-goo-chaater`` syndrome. Like it or not.
[Does that make me a lesser human being, lesser South Asian, lesser son of the Indus soil, ``Arab goo-chater`` ... You seem to think so... and today it is the names. Tomorrow you may ask Muslims to leave Islam because it is alien to the subcontinent... which is why I thank god I am not from the same country as you... ]
Me too. God bless Jinnah.
[And lets assume... that it is the latent wish of a common South Asian Muslim to be more Arab that forces him to name his children with ``Arab`` names ]
It is, my dear boy, it is.
[(which I have proved are as Pakistani, Indian, American as they are Arab)]
What proof? ``Yasser`` is an Arab name. ``Vladimir`` is a Russian name. Period.
[... why must it bite you...]
It doesn`t bite me at all. If sons of the soil are trying to pretend to belong to alien heritages, I really don`t care. But don`t accuse the general population if they look to you as alien and separate from them - YOU started the process. YOU are responsible for it.
And it makes my ``Arab goo chaater`` comment completely valid.
[If a person is a tax paying, law abiding citizen of your country ... you can hardly impose such cultural fascism on them.]
Islam may have forced IT`S cultural fascism on YOU, but in India, there is nobody forcing anybody to name their children in a certain way. We Hindus are democratic by nature and instinct, as opposed to you Muslims. India is a democracy. Pakiland is not.
#440 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 8:51:14 am
Re: # 439 Zeemax
`Did Afghanistan attack US?`
You figure that out, bozo! To answer that I will have to educate you on what constitutes a `sovereign state`, the basis of international relations between sovereign states and the Treaty of Westphalia. Along the way, you will learn about such intricacies as to what the responsibility of a sovereign state is with regard to private militias operating out of its territory that occassionally ram otherwise normal planes into occupied buildings.
CIAO. Like I said earlier, I will ignore any thing that is not substantial.
In 1950, the U.N. International Law Commission adopted the Nuremberg Principles.
The Nuremberg Principles are a set of guidelines for determining what constitutes a war crime and were created by necessity during the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi party members following World War II.
`Did Afghanistan attack US?`
You figure that out, bozo! To answer that I will have to educate you on what constitutes a `sovereign state`, the basis of international relations between sovereign states and the Treaty of Westphalia. Along the way, you will learn about such intricacies as to what the responsibility of a sovereign state is with regard to private militias operating out of its territory that occassionally ram otherwise normal planes into occupied buildings.
CIAO. Like I said earlier, I will ignore any thing that is not substantial.
In 1950, the U.N. International Law Commission adopted the Nuremberg Principles.
The Nuremberg Principles are a set of guidelines for determining what constitutes a war crime and were created by necessity during the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi party members following World War II.
#439 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 8:39:52 am
#438
Ok. This is article 51:
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
Now state your position which interpretation applies to bombing Afghanistan? Did Afghanistan attack US?
And what is this principle VI you`ve now brought out? Whose principle is this? The 1% principle of the doctrine of pre-emption of Cheney?
You better make your case because you`ve made an outrageous contention.
Ok. This is article 51:
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
Now state your position which interpretation applies to bombing Afghanistan? Did Afghanistan attack US?
And what is this principle VI you`ve now brought out? Whose principle is this? The 1% principle of the doctrine of pre-emption of Cheney?
You better make your case because you`ve made an outrageous contention.
#438 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 8:23:46 am
Re: # 436
Under Article 51, no `incovtrovertible proof` is needed like in a court of law since the supreme jury for these matters is the UN General Assembly and its sub-body, the UN Security Council - both political (not judicial) entities. Nevertheless, if UN member states STILL believe that a state (e.g. US) is waging a `War of Aggression` (e.g. invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11) and not acting in `self-defense` as it can under Article 51, they (i.e. UN General Assembly) can always act to restrain the US and charge it with violation of the Nuremberg Principles.
Principle VI specifically makes the following a crime:
Crime against peace
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
So, after you have had the time to digest the above (and also mull over the Taleban/Al Qaeda role in the acts leading up to before 9/11 to see if THEY violated Principle VI!!), then think about why no General Assembly motion has passed so far to rein in the US. (I am specifically excluding the Security Council since the US has a veto in the Council and therefore will likely kill any such motions as soon as they are conceived.). The General Assembly is not restrained as the Council is by US veto authority.
You are getting a free education here. Give me something substantial in your next post. Otherwise, I am ignoring you.
Under Article 51, no `incovtrovertible proof` is needed like in a court of law since the supreme jury for these matters is the UN General Assembly and its sub-body, the UN Security Council - both political (not judicial) entities. Nevertheless, if UN member states STILL believe that a state (e.g. US) is waging a `War of Aggression` (e.g. invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11) and not acting in `self-defense` as it can under Article 51, they (i.e. UN General Assembly) can always act to restrain the US and charge it with violation of the Nuremberg Principles.
Principle VI specifically makes the following a crime:
Crime against peace
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
So, after you have had the time to digest the above (and also mull over the Taleban/Al Qaeda role in the acts leading up to before 9/11 to see if THEY violated Principle VI!!), then think about why no General Assembly motion has passed so far to rein in the US. (I am specifically excluding the Security Council since the US has a veto in the Council and therefore will likely kill any such motions as soon as they are conceived.). The General Assembly is not restrained as the Council is by US veto authority.
You are getting a free education here. Give me something substantial in your next post. Otherwise, I am ignoring you.
#437 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 8:19:25 am
#435 by arjun2
Although I don`t like to stoop to respond to you, but just this time.
The grapevine is it wasn`t the Paks, it was the Americans. Pak military is owning it because (1) it would be a bigger mess otherwise as in the previous attack in the same area which killed just 18 civilians. This time it`s 80 and there`s a complete blockade on journalists entering the region who spilled the beans last time. And (2) It will shut Karzai up.
Of-course there`ll be consequences as no arms have been produced from that `training camp`.
Don`t bother to reply.
Although I don`t like to stoop to respond to you, but just this time.
The grapevine is it wasn`t the Paks, it was the Americans. Pak military is owning it because (1) it would be a bigger mess otherwise as in the previous attack in the same area which killed just 18 civilians. This time it`s 80 and there`s a complete blockade on journalists entering the region who spilled the beans last time. And (2) It will shut Karzai up.
Of-course there`ll be consequences as no arms have been produced from that `training camp`.
Don`t bother to reply.
#436 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 8:09:23 am
#434 by PewResearch
Ok .. you and your article 51 ... now cite me a single incontrovertible proof Usama was involved in 9/11 ... and don`t give me that sh!t about the videos ....
Ok .. you and your article 51 ... now cite me a single incontrovertible proof Usama was involved in 9/11 ... and don`t give me that sh!t about the videos ....
#435 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 8:08:45 am
were the 80 pakis who were whacked when the paki army bombed a madrassah today indicted?
#434 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 8:05:47 am
Re: # 433
The point is that UN Resolution 1333 was ALREADY provided EVEN BEFORE 9/11 enough grounds for his extradition.
Also, the main thrust of my remarks was Article 51 of the UN CHARTER
Go get an education.
The point is that UN Resolution 1333 was ALREADY provided EVEN BEFORE 9/11 enough grounds for his extradition.
Also, the main thrust of my remarks was Article 51 of the UN CHARTER
Go get an education.
#433 Posted by zeemax on October 30, 2006 7:52:54 am
#432 by PewResearch
You idiot, Usama has never been indicted for 9/11. Your resolution was in 2000 and 9/11 was in 2001.
Of all the AH`s....
You idiot, Usama has never been indicted for 9/11. Your resolution was in 2000 and 9/11 was in 2001.
Of all the AH`s....
#432 Posted by PewResearch on October 30, 2006 7:24:31 am
Re: # 430 Dost-Mittar/Zeemax
You guys are totally out of touch with reality! Have you ever read the UN Charter (the CHARTER, not just the resolutions).
Go read Article 51 which begins with:
`Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.`
Also, the UN Security Council had issued Resolution 1333 on December 19, 2000 directed towards the Taliban demanding that the Taliban turn over bin Laden to the United States or a third country for trial in the deadly bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa in August 1998, and close terrorist training camps, with the threat of trade sanctions, freezing Taliban assets abroad, etc.
Morons using high-falutin` legalese!
You guys are totally out of touch with reality! Have you ever read the UN Charter (the CHARTER, not just the resolutions).
Go read Article 51 which begins with:
`Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.`
Also, the UN Security Council had issued Resolution 1333 on December 19, 2000 directed towards the Taliban demanding that the Taliban turn over bin Laden to the United States or a third country for trial in the deadly bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa in August 1998, and close terrorist training camps, with the threat of trade sanctions, freezing Taliban assets abroad, etc.
Morons using high-falutin` legalese!
#431 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 7:23:21 am
#418 by dost-mittar on October 29, 2006 4:15pm PT
However, I also do not remember seeing any report of Osama being indicted by any US court on any specific charge, so I do not know on what basis the US was demanding OBL`s handover.
Was the Japanese empire indicted? I also do not rememeber seeing any report or a trial proving the japanese had attacked pearl harbor..
However, I also do not remember seeing any report of Osama being indicted by any US court on any specific charge, so I do not know on what basis the US was demanding OBL`s handover.
Was the Japanese empire indicted? I also do not rememeber seeing any report or a trial proving the japanese had attacked pearl harbor..
#430 Posted by dost_mittar on October 30, 2006 4:19:24 am
bongdong#420:
Thanks for your reference. I had not seen this indictment before.
zeemax:
I agree that the US had no legal basis to attack either Afghanistan or Iraq.
Thanks for your reference. I had not seen this indictment before.
zeemax:
I agree that the US had no legal basis to attack either Afghanistan or Iraq.
#429 Posted by zeemax on October 29, 2006 11:27:20 pm
#417 by bbabu
Did they punish the hijackers of Indian Airlines jetliner to Kandahar ?
I thought you guys had made a deal with the hijackers to go free. Why would Taliban punish them in violation of your agreement? Should they have done that?
Explain why give shelter to Osama in the first place.
Shelter? Against what crime? Usama had committed no crime in AF, had denied involvement in 9/11, and were provided no proof of his involvement. Why would they hand him over? On what charge? You must be joking. See DMs post and my response.
All those Pakistanis who were captured and slaughtered in Mazar-e-Sharif were withdrawing. Give me a break.
Correct that many Paks were caught and it is also correct they were trying to make it back to Pak after Talbs withdrew into the mountains and foreigners were left to fend for themselves. In fact, there was an airlift of Pak advisers from Kanduz but not of the fighters because they had travalled illegally to fight alongside Taliban. Refer this artcle.
The same Taliban slaughtered thousands of Hazaras in Bamian province. You must have a warped sense of justice.
You are simply lying out of prejudice. There was no massacre of `thousands` in Bamiyan neither were Taliban even accused of any. Please quote a news source if you have one.
Did they punish the hijackers of Indian Airlines jetliner to Kandahar ?
I thought you guys had made a deal with the hijackers to go free. Why would Taliban punish them in violation of your agreement? Should they have done that?
Explain why give shelter to Osama in the first place.
Shelter? Against what crime? Usama had committed no crime in AF, had denied involvement in 9/11, and were provided no proof of his involvement. Why would they hand him over? On what charge? You must be joking. See DMs post and my response.
All those Pakistanis who were captured and slaughtered in Mazar-e-Sharif were withdrawing. Give me a break.
Correct that many Paks were caught and it is also correct they were trying to make it back to Pak after Talbs withdrew into the mountains and foreigners were left to fend for themselves. In fact, there was an airlift of Pak advisers from Kanduz but not of the fighters because they had travalled illegally to fight alongside Taliban. Refer this artcle.
The same Taliban slaughtered thousands of Hazaras in Bamian province. You must have a warped sense of justice.
You are simply lying out of prejudice. There was no massacre of `thousands` in Bamiyan neither were Taliban even accused of any. Please quote a news source if you have one.
#428 Posted by MantoLives on October 29, 2006 10:49:08 pm
The question my dear friend is not whether the Pakistan cricket team had liberal aunties...
The question is when and how will you- a Hindu fascist- will declare that Muhammad Azharuddin, Zaheer Khan, Muhammad Kaif and Irfan Pathan ... the pride and joy of Indian cricket are actually non-Indians... And no my aunt would not have named me Gopinath... despite her liberal communist Indo-phile and Hindu-Phile views... because.. Gopinath is a Hindu name ... and I am not a Hindu. Simple.
Does that make me a lesser human being, lesser South Asian, lesser son of the Indus soil, ``Arab goo-chater`` ... You seem to think so... and today it is the names. Tomorrow you may ask Muslims to leave Islam because it is alien to the subcontinent... which is why I thank god I am not from the same country as you...
And lets assume... that it is the latent wish of a common South Asian Muslim to be more Arab that forces him to name his children with ``Arab`` names (which I have proved are as Pakistani, Indian, American as they are Arab) ... why must it bite you... If a person is a tax paying, law abiding citizen of your country ... you can hardly impose such cultural fascism on them.
The question is when and how will you- a Hindu fascist- will declare that Muhammad Azharuddin, Zaheer Khan, Muhammad Kaif and Irfan Pathan ... the pride and joy of Indian cricket are actually non-Indians... And no my aunt would not have named me Gopinath... despite her liberal communist Indo-phile and Hindu-Phile views... because.. Gopinath is a Hindu name ... and I am not a Hindu. Simple.
Does that make me a lesser human being, lesser South Asian, lesser son of the Indus soil, ``Arab goo-chater`` ... You seem to think so... and today it is the names. Tomorrow you may ask Muslims to leave Islam because it is alien to the subcontinent... which is why I thank god I am not from the same country as you...
And lets assume... that it is the latent wish of a common South Asian Muslim to be more Arab that forces him to name his children with ``Arab`` names (which I have proved are as Pakistani, Indian, American as they are Arab) ... why must it bite you... If a person is a tax paying, law abiding citizen of your country ... you can hardly impose such cultural fascism on them.
#427 Posted by krishna_abcd on October 29, 2006 10:06:08 pm
misc. by Mantolives
[..I was named by a commie liberal aunt who is almost an atheist, loves Indians and Hindus and thinks partition might have been a big mistake .... she named me so because in 1980 most commies saw Yasser Arafat as a great leftist hero. ]
Accidental coincidence? She just MIGHT have named you Gopinath, eh? :)
Here`s a list of the names in the current Paki cricket team:
Mohammad Hafeez
Imran Farhat
Younis Khan
Mohammad Yousuf
Shoaib Malik
Kamran Akmal
Abdul Razzaq
Shahid Afridi
Yasir Arafat
Umar Gul
Iftikhar Anjum
Take a guess how many of them had liberal lefty aunts.
:)
[..I was named by a commie liberal aunt who is almost an atheist, loves Indians and Hindus and thinks partition might have been a big mistake .... she named me so because in 1980 most commies saw Yasser Arafat as a great leftist hero. ]
Accidental coincidence? She just MIGHT have named you Gopinath, eh? :)
Here`s a list of the names in the current Paki cricket team:
Mohammad Hafeez
Imran Farhat
Younis Khan
Mohammad Yousuf
Shoaib Malik
Kamran Akmal
Abdul Razzaq
Shahid Afridi
Yasir Arafat
Umar Gul
Iftikhar Anjum
Take a guess how many of them had liberal lefty aunts.
:)
#426 Posted by zeemax on October 29, 2006 9:58:02 pm
#418 by dost-mittar
As far as my memory goes, he only offered to hand him over to an Islamic country, i.e., one where he would be tried according to Sharia and not to an international tribunal.
It might have been reported in this manner in some sections of the press but it is not true. He was willing to surrender Omar to The Hague with Pak intercession.
I also do not remember seeing any report of Osama being indicted by any US court on any specific charge....
That`s true. In fact, both Omar and Pak had asked US for proof in the very beginning. First the US admin kept saying it was too sensitive to be shared, then some documents were provided to Pak which were also conveyed to Taliban, but Pak after examining these had (quite hesitatingly) termed these as `inconclusive`. In fact those documents were little more than press reports and conjectures of intelligence agencies, i.e. pure trash. In any event, US attacked and rest is history.
...so I do not know on what basis the US was demanding OBL`s handover....
There was no legal basis. It was a unilateral and non-negotiable demand which Taliban rejected. Interestingly, there is still no hard conclusive proof of Usama`s involvement.
Even more surprising is that the alleged mastermind of 9/11 Khalid Shaikh Mohammad has been in US custody since 4 years. If there`s anyone who could have provided proof other than mere hearsay, it was him. But US kept him in secret confinement and has recently transferred him to Guantanamo, indicating the interrogation is over and still no proof.
Another interesting development is Karzai`s offer for talks with Mullah Omar. Isn`t there a US$ 10 million reward on his head? So there`s something very fishy in the entire matter.
As far as my memory goes, he only offered to hand him over to an Islamic country, i.e., one where he would be tried according to Sharia and not to an international tribunal.
It might have been reported in this manner in some sections of the press but it is not true. He was willing to surrender Omar to The Hague with Pak intercession.
I also do not remember seeing any report of Osama being indicted by any US court on any specific charge....
That`s true. In fact, both Omar and Pak had asked US for proof in the very beginning. First the US admin kept saying it was too sensitive to be shared, then some documents were provided to Pak which were also conveyed to Taliban, but Pak after examining these had (quite hesitatingly) termed these as `inconclusive`. In fact those documents were little more than press reports and conjectures of intelligence agencies, i.e. pure trash. In any event, US attacked and rest is history.
...so I do not know on what basis the US was demanding OBL`s handover....
There was no legal basis. It was a unilateral and non-negotiable demand which Taliban rejected. Interestingly, there is still no hard conclusive proof of Usama`s involvement.
Even more surprising is that the alleged mastermind of 9/11 Khalid Shaikh Mohammad has been in US custody since 4 years. If there`s anyone who could have provided proof other than mere hearsay, it was him. But US kept him in secret confinement and has recently transferred him to Guantanamo, indicating the interrogation is over and still no proof.
Another interesting development is Karzai`s offer for talks with Mullah Omar. Isn`t there a US$ 10 million reward on his head? So there`s something very fishy in the entire matter.
#425 Posted by MantoLives on October 29, 2006 9:06:54 pm
Re: # 424
Ironically (and this is ironic because of the fascist tendencies displayed by Hindu fanatics on these boards)... I was named by a commie liberal aunt who is almost an atheist, loves Indians and Hindus and thinks partition might have been a big mistake .... she named me so because in 1980 most commies saw Yasser Arafat as a great leftist hero.
I should show her this discussion to seal the arguments I have with her once and for all...
Ironically (and this is ironic because of the fascist tendencies displayed by Hindu fanatics on these boards)... I was named by a commie liberal aunt who is almost an atheist, loves Indians and Hindus and thinks partition might have been a big mistake .... she named me so because in 1980 most commies saw Yasser Arafat as a great leftist hero.
I should show her this discussion to seal the arguments I have with her once and for all...
#424 Posted by MantoLives on October 29, 2006 9:03:44 pm
Re: # 370
[What is wrong with an Arab or a Turk or a persian or an English name? ]
``Nothing wrong, PROVIDED your parents were equally likely to have considered an English name, an Indian name (based on Sanskrit), a Turkish name, or an Arab name for you.
But no, they had to reinforce the ``Arab goo chaater`` image, as someone put so eloquently some time ago on Chowk. ``
Since you don`t know my parents, I suggest you refrain from making too many assumptions about them...
``Unlike you Pedophile-following Islamofascists (that`s the official name for you guys around the world - everybody calls you guys Islamofascists in the US, Europe, far East etc. nowadays), we Hindus are known around the world to be democratic.``
Yeah. Being known is not the same as being in actual reality. Just look at the abuse and the intolerant bigotry that you ``Hindus`` show here and establish the facts for yourself.
``Our ``idea`` of Indianness consists of the concept that ``Yasser`` is an Arab name, ``Vladimir`` is a Russian name and ``Gopinath`` is an Indian name. Religion has nothing to do with it. ``
Acha... why couldn`t Yasser be an Indian or a South Asian name ... if pronounced ``Yaasir`` instead ot the Arab ``yesser`` ... You need to learn a lot about how languages have borrowed from each other and how much interplay of the languages has made its mark. Your fascist idea that thinks only Gopinath is an Indian name .... and all Indian names of Arab/Turkish/Persian origin despite being the names of 140 million Indians of Muslim faith just reaffirms that Caste Hindus like yourself believe what Gandhi said:
``I am a Hindu first- therefore a true Indian``
This is medieval fascism and nothing more... but atleast own upto it. Don`t call yourself secular or democratic when you cannot accept that some people may choose to have names that are not ``Indian`` enough for you and yet be perfectly Indian. How about being more concerned with your own faith?
``It says something about you guys` Arab goo chaater tendencies, does it not, that you guys could not keep your Indian names when you converted? What does a name have to do with spirituality? Why did you guys have to change it? (But then, of course, spirituality has nothing to do with Islam),``
Again... why must anyone conform to your idea of spirituality.
``And WHY do your country`s history books start with the arrival of Bin Qasim? ``
They start from Mohenjodaro..
[What is wrong with an Arab or a Turk or a persian or an English name? ]
``Nothing wrong, PROVIDED your parents were equally likely to have considered an English name, an Indian name (based on Sanskrit), a Turkish name, or an Arab name for you.
But no, they had to reinforce the ``Arab goo chaater`` image, as someone put so eloquently some time ago on Chowk. ``
Since you don`t know my parents, I suggest you refrain from making too many assumptions about them...
``Unlike you Pedophile-following Islamofascists (that`s the official name for you guys around the world - everybody calls you guys Islamofascists in the US, Europe, far East etc. nowadays), we Hindus are known around the world to be democratic.``
Yeah. Being known is not the same as being in actual reality. Just look at the abuse and the intolerant bigotry that you ``Hindus`` show here and establish the facts for yourself.
``Our ``idea`` of Indianness consists of the concept that ``Yasser`` is an Arab name, ``Vladimir`` is a Russian name and ``Gopinath`` is an Indian name. Religion has nothing to do with it. ``
Acha... why couldn`t Yasser be an Indian or a South Asian name ... if pronounced ``Yaasir`` instead ot the Arab ``yesser`` ... You need to learn a lot about how languages have borrowed from each other and how much interplay of the languages has made its mark. Your fascist idea that thinks only Gopinath is an Indian name .... and all Indian names of Arab/Turkish/Persian origin despite being the names of 140 million Indians of Muslim faith just reaffirms that Caste Hindus like yourself believe what Gandhi said:
``I am a Hindu first- therefore a true Indian``
This is medieval fascism and nothing more... but atleast own upto it. Don`t call yourself secular or democratic when you cannot accept that some people may choose to have names that are not ``Indian`` enough for you and yet be perfectly Indian. How about being more concerned with your own faith?
``It says something about you guys` Arab goo chaater tendencies, does it not, that you guys could not keep your Indian names when you converted? What does a name have to do with spirituality? Why did you guys have to change it? (But then, of course, spirituality has nothing to do with Islam),``
Again... why must anyone conform to your idea of spirituality.
``And WHY do your country`s history books start with the arrival of Bin Qasim? ``
They start from Mohenjodaro..