Pakistan's Afghan Policy

Re: # 135 by HP:

``What Indian has to do with Afghanistan? The afghan issue is to be decided by the nations that matter in that region and they are Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the US.``

Taliban is an ally of a class of terrorists who operate in India .... period.

.......musharraf`s waziristan policy was his achille`s heel..........it would have doomed him in pakistan..........nearly everyone i met was upset over it, barring perhaps some portions of the chowk crowd (who in the big political scheme of pakistan don`t count at all, as most don`t vote or are abroad).........

........interestingly opinion was more divided over baluchistan to some level........at least far more than over waziristan..........everyone i met in the military was against the waziristan policy and quite openly so.....specifically the pathan officers and soldiers........to the point of being mutinous........there are pilots who have refused to fly missions in waziristan and have been court martialled and, i think, even jailed.......

.........pakistan lost quite a few soldiers there.......one of my friends who flew rescue helicopters there, mentioned a figure of around 500 army soldiers dead by around a year ago........this would mean that the locals lost far more............he was quite upset at the killings also..........i think a lot of civilians were being killed in collateral damage........

..........i think the big negative for the public was that musharraf was doing all of this at usa`s insistence........which he was.......he was basically bombing his own territories and people under pressure from bush......to the best of my knowledge, no political party (or the army generals themselves) has a policy supporting bombing of waziristan........

........so musharraf had to make a deal........otherwise he would have been toasted domestically...........americans have put far too much pressure on the guy to, ``do more``.........the americans fired a missile into waziristan that killed civilians in a household.......the pakistani journalist who broke this story that the missile was american disappeared..........three months later, his dead body was found..........one would have to assume, he was killed by musharraf`s men, at usa`s insistence..........there was pictures of his little kids in the newspaper........

another team of journalists that took pictures of the usa base in jacobabad, disappeared also.........they reappeared a few months later - luckily alive........

...........pakistan`s afghan policy has been a big screw-up from day one., when the soviets invaded........pakistan basically tied its horses with the us policy, and in the process got the brunt of everything..........america won the cold war against the ussr, while pakistan was left holding the bag - drugs, klashnikovs, terrorism inside pakistan, millions of refugess and a very unstable neighbor.......

..........pakistan further screwed up by fighting its battles against india in afghanistan.......india did the same, much to the destruction of afghanis........however afghanistan was not an indian neighbor, hence india was insuluated..........

..........now pakistan has tied its train with the usa again.........big mistake.......pakistan should take a more balanced approach........this deal with the taliban is a good deal, from what i can see............what is the alternative?............keep bombing its own citizens, to make the americans happy, while simultaneoulsy infuriating its own population?...........

.........the day a govt. has to turn its own military against its own citizens is a day the govt. loses that citizenry.........it eventually leads to freedom struggle and long-term violence........americans need to fight their own wars........they created the mujahideen and taliban..........they funded osama............they have created a whole new wave of fighters in iraq..........and if they attack iran, they will do the same there also......

.........the best thing for pakistan to do is to try to stay as far away from american conflicts as possible.........the worst thing to do is to become a front-line state........pakistan should only do so if the battles are being fought on us borders, i.e. against canada or mexico, so that the blowback does not hit pakistan...........

bulleye: congratulations. your post looks like it was written by hamidm.....until one reads between the dots. :-)

stuka #158 i think ``pride`` is hardly the word to describe the cr!ap that goes on on chowk. the bigger the loser, the more jingoist - sorry, proud - he is of his religion or whatever.

Re:bulleya#162

[........the best thing for pakistan to do is to try to stay as far away from american conflicts as possible.........the worst thing to do is to become a front-line state.....]

Finally a sensible Pakistani shows up. The others are blinded by their own arrogance. Playing the Afghan game is dangerous and a recipe for disaster. If the Brits and Russians couldnt do it, what hope do Pakistanis have?

stuka #158: ``Why is it kosher to take pride in ethnicity and not okay to take pride in religion?``

.........like fine wine, you are getting wiser with age (seriously speaking).......you could be a potential dost-mittar.........both of you can do for the mediocrity in the very limited (and quite rude) debating skills of indian males what ashwariya rai has done for the mediocrity in india females in the looks dept.......

........i have also always wondered about the above question......i can never figure out why people feel it is good to be proud of ethnicity or nationality, but not of religion........all these things, in some manner draw boundaries around a person and differentiate him/her from the other.........

......yet there are some who consider religion to be a uniting factor, while disregarding culture and nationality........there are others who do exactly the opposite........they try to denounce religion as a common factor, while highliting culture and/or nationality......

both groups are quite sure they are correct.........i suppose if one wants to bring down boundaries, then pride should be in one`s common humanity..........then again, that differentiates us from animals (and aliens).......so pride could be in organic entities........

in my opinion, pride should be taken in content of one`s character.........not to mention in th cricket team one supports.........

Re:sadna#145

[...The Pak elites have a deeprooted hatred and contempt for anything even slightly Hindu or Indian and can`t stand even an Indian sounding name....]

I dont know about your personal experience, but I am friends with quite a few Pakistanis. A few of them have dads/uncles in the upper ranks of the army, so I guess they would be the elites. I have not seen anywhere near the level of bigotry that you are talking about. Most of them are addicted to Bollywood and Indian music. They are arrogant and nationalistic but they are not insane fanatics.

ranjit#167
What comes up in normal interactions does not always precisely reflect the direction of wider society/policy. From my understanding of whatever spectrum of Pak views I have read or heard, on a scale of most pure to most impure for the Pak elite, the Taliban and its Islam are situated close to the pure end and the Indians at the impure end. In talking of anyone wanting to be `bailed out` you are in my view making the mistake of projecting what an Indian would think in that situation.

#158 Stuka, this whole business of taking pride in one`s ethnicity or religion is absurd. One usually takes pride in what one does or what one has created. If I did not create my religion or ethnicity how can I take pride in it? yes I can associate with it or show a sense of being part of it. also one can take pride in the way or extent one practices his religion and achieves good goals...then one can say see I am proud how I practiced my religion and achieved heaven or something...but just taking pride in something that was already there and you did not contribute in its creation or progress is nothing but us taking our mind off our usual mortal failures and taking refuse in something larger and a bit less mortal than us by declaring our claim on it.
although I would say one`s ethnciity is probably more deep rooted and natural act than one`s religion or adoption of it whenever it happened in the family tree. e.g. HP`s association with being Sindhi is much more natural (even though an accident) than his muslimness(which is a bigger accident and based on one person`s decision to covert at some time)

Ref Mullah32 #151

[#146-49 hmmm..macaca harimau is chirping. must be early morning in macacapur. someone give him some heeng (macacas need heeng to chirp in the right tone).]

Since you Pakistanis all look up to the Chinese, here is something for you look up to:

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/chinese-mythology.php?deity=MONKEY&ds=N

Anyway, culture-wise, I think camels are a rarity in Canada so you have to settle for sex with a goat. But what with Eid and all that, isn`t it great that fatwa-online.com has said that it okay to kill and eat the goat you had sex with? You really must have had a good time during Ramzan though on Eid that had to come to some sort of end.

Those who spread the propaganda that US CREATED Taliban are obviously trying to buttress tehir conspiracy theory.

This is NONSENSE!!!


US had NO idea about the monster of extreme Islamism

- the idea of using religious Jehad to create suicidal fighters willing to accelerate to the heavens was creation of the Pakistani Army.

-The EXECUTION of this entire plan was handled by the Paki army.

-The channelizing and disbursal of US dollars and of arms and ammunition was by the PAk Army.

- The training of the mujahideens was by the Paki army.

So who created Taliban??

- Paki Army!!!

All this was done because the Paki army Generals could make cool bucks out of un accounted US dollars........................

The civilian government kept mum because the army was kept occupied and enjoying those dollars .
Predictably the belligerent Paki army felt unemployed after Cold War and had that enormous itch to do something . KArgil came and the civilian government could not find a way to wriggle out of the obvious confrontation that was looming large.
PAki Jernail was humiliated ......and staged a coup to avoid court martial..........

That is the essense of the PAki Afghan story!!!!
Rest in all BS!!

HP wrote <<< The NATO or the US cannot remain in Afghanistan indefinitely but Afghanistan will always have to share borders with Pakistan >>>

You didn`t have to say anything else, this one sentence took care of the entire article. The US creates messes around the globe and then points the finger of blame detached from all logic- towards others, spoiled sobs think in this manner so it shouldnt be any surprise to us, other than themselves the whole world is invisible to them and when caught with their pants down they blame others.

Just a comment, as you would have noted yourself, interacting with bhands, both macacus and caninus is futile, so my interacts are at a minimum these days.

HP writes <<< What Indian has to do with Afghanistan? >>>

Indian obsessions, directly or indirectly lead to Pakistan, as you know that is why they are interested in Afghanistan, the terrorism connection to the Taliban is a mere facade, and a wide stretch, to obfuscate the real issues, in this the Indians are following the US lead though as third rate peons.

In #173 when I say <<< the terrorism connection to the Taliban is a mere facade, and a wide stretch, to obfuscate the real issues, in this the Indians are following the US lead though as third rate peons. >>>

by US lead, I mean the US stretch to make an Al_Qaeda/ Iraq connection, similar to how GT is making a Taliban/Kashmir connection.

More propaganda.

Once the fascade of ``conspiracy`` is unsheathed, their own nakedness is seen in all its perversity .......

Can they hide behind those ``conspiracy theories`` anymore?

No way!!

Some comments:

#155 by dost-mittar

This post is mostly correct, but let me add a few relevant thoughts:

...Looked at this way, Pakistani policies have made eminent sense and paid rich dividends for Pakistan ...

Pak`s Afghan policies paid rich dividends only till 9/11 (I do not consider US aid or US backed economic relief as `rich dividends`) in the form of a friendly border, thriving trade and market for Pak goods, and reconstruction contracts. Most of all, the Pak trade routes to CARs were secured and the motorway masterplan through Pak was initiated and was feasible for this precise reason. All of this fell apart after Pak U-turn on 9/11.

Why I say the above is because Afghanistan as a state has always been a loosely confederated entity of ferociously autonomous warlords, with the state in Kabul just performing the function of liaising with a `big brother` next-door for vital transport of shipments to a land locked country, and for essential commodities. This big brother was the Soviet Union (i.e. ...even the butter was shipped from SU though there was a local brewery as I recall...pls note hamidm). After departure of SU from the scene, the vacuum was filled by Pak, and squandered away by Musharraf. As it stands now, Taliban after its resurgence is an enemy of both Pak and the US/EU, and the wounds are very deep. The `new` Taliban is a lot more dangerous than it ever was both for Pak as well as the west.

Pak must not make the same mistake again of being caught by surprise of a 9/11 without a policy and forsaking its long-term strategic interests in Afghanistan for US favour in a hurry. The defeat of US in both Iran and Iraq is now imminent and Pak must divert foreign policy direction to most importantly Iran, Turkey and China who will gain influence in the region, while Pak will remain holding the bag with enemies on all sides without a policy direction. Afghanis, above all, are traders and will side with the best trading partners.

...``one might recall Clinton sending a missile aimed at OBL`s camp in August `98``...

The camp which was hit by that missile was known as `Da Punjabiyan` camp. Of-course UBL was not there, but the reason for that name was that the `Taliban` there were in fact from Multan. You can make whatever you want from this tidbit.

#171 by ballukhan

Those who spread the propaganda that US CREATED Taliban are obviously trying to buttress tehir conspiracy theory. This is NONSENSE!!!

This is really funny. Was it Reagan who invited Taliban to White House lawns and compared them to the very ``founding fathers of America``?