The Calculus of Miscalculated Human Misery

Re:HP#18

[...The failure started when the war was diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq on lies that people slowly caught on to. Those lies and not the military failure in both Afghanistan and Iraq is responsible for legitimizing the terrorist and terrorism as political force in the world now. Had the efforts were made to eliminate the terrorist instead of expanding the war for some dubious reasons, the menace of Jihadis and the terrorism would have been long gone.....]

HP, the Iraq war is undoubtedly a disaster, a complete failure in execution. Having said that we should also realize that the US was making a gamble, an experiment in trying to forcibly push the middle-east towards modernity. How many times have we heard that the US cozys up to dictators in the middle-east? Well, here was one instance where the US tried to shift the dynamics of the middle-east by attempting to establish a constitutional democracy. The hope was that it would succeed, just like democracies had succeeded in Eastern Europe after communism and even start off a domino affect. Ultimately the middle-east could morph into a modern, democratic society where terrorism would be an anomaly.

What the US did not estimate was how backward and primitive Iraq really was as a society. It had material wealth from oil, but underneath the people were savages who were brutally kept under control by Saddam. Once that control was lifted, they fell upon each other like beasts killing in the name of sectrianism. Every day Iraqis are killing 50-60 other Iraqis including women and children, in the name of religious sects. It defies comprehension that they would destroy each other like this, when they can easily build a modern democracry. So now the US has basically realized that the middle-east is full of similar savages and the best that can be achieved is stability via some dictator. No wonder the US is now reaching out to Syria and Iran to help fix Iraq.

``Tough decision making is need of the hour, the decisions that would stand the grind of truth, justice and transparency.``

But the question still remains, Who will make this decision- America, Israel or the so called Veto Power

........ this is perhaps one of the most poorly written articles i have read on this forum - the author needs to go back to grade school and take a remedial class in elementary english ......... final grade : C-

Re: # 35

I wonder if they grant Ph.D degrees in Jihadi universities! In any case the curriculum should insist that candidates take at least refresher course in writing.

Kamath

So its official now, esp coming from a Brig.Gen. Albeit retd. The claim for both victimhood, and superiority present with most so-called islamic actions in the west, and those emanating from mother countries.

Thank you for an enlightening article, Makni sahib (if I could be so presumptuous with familiarity). It, the article, does indicate an certain unwillingness to look beyond the common and popular notions of victimhood. These notions of victimhood, if articulated by the vast unwashed population of the country, would have been excused. However, coming, from an intellectual, albeit one immersed in military discipline and all thatit carries, leaves no excuses. Just as there are no excuses for the pakistani brothers in the UK to bomb their country folk.

URSTRULY in #6 has very succintly put forward a case, which has some rationale behind it. Ofcourse this response has been ignored, since I presume that it carries within it a nugget of the uncomfortable pin-prick called the truth. It makes sense.

However, what makes more sense is that in most of the muslim world there is a total lack of accountability. To cover up this accountability, and to hide thier own inadequecies as rulers, you have this great charade of ``victimhood`` being played out. At the same time to make people even more confused and dazed you mesmirise them with peans of superiority, and mind numbing oness drilled into them from the time they are small. Thereby, getting rid of any vestiges of independent thought and independent mind.

This play of schizophrenia has worked till now, in that the west could be blackmailed into handing over hard earned tax dollars to the directors of the play. nfortunately the script is well worn out and the day of reckoning is arond the corner. The west is putting up its fences. It would leave the festering countries to stew in their own cess-pit of their making by stopping exchanges of the kind the world has witnessed so far. It is either that or a total remappping of the islamic world will take, with or without the help of the muslims. This remapping is going to be experimented with in Iraq. The iraqis have helped the west in this endeavour and it will happen.

despite the decades of exchanges with the west, the muslim world has not learnt the fundemental tenets of a free society, hence the clutching at strawmen by quoting Chomsky (your article is an excellent case in point). I am sure if you asked Professor Chomsky to analyse your little world he would be no less censorious. This would be extremely uncomfortable to your ilk and prove to be his last testament as a freeman. He would either have a fatwa on his head ala Rushdie and be forced into hiding, or if visiting yor countries he would be in prison and thrown into the cess-pit.

This article provides nothing new, and is remakrably full of cliches. I would have hoped that for a man of your experience and judgement more insight into the worlds troubles would have been provided. Unless ofcourse you are wanting to use this as an exercise in fishing for ideas. If then, I am sure you already have been given a fore taste of the reaction to your insulting our collective intelligence.

#35 and #36. While I do not agree with the content of the writer`s article and will come to that later, let`s avoid crticisizing the author for his grammer. I am sure that English is not his first language and might be very eloquent in his mother tongue. It is a legacy of the British colonialism that allowed people to be made fun of if they spoke poor English. How many British can speak good Hindi or Urdu or any other non-English language. I have come across hundreds of Americans who are sucessful and speak bad English despite it being their mother tongue. Guys get over this slavish colonial mentality.

PS - While I disagree with the contents as mentioned, I understood what he is trying to say.

#33 by ranjit on November 13, 2006 1:00am PT

This whole concept of peace, democracy and human rights is nothing but a stick to beat the non-conforming non-white nations with. To quote the famous (or infamous) Nixon saying about a dictator, ``I know the guy is an SOB but he is our SOB``. This White Man`s burden is another way of continuing the colonial legacy though in a more sophisticated manner. Until a quarter century ago, every fourth US state officially treated Blacks as second-class citizens. Until 50-60 years ago, UK and many other European colonised a large section of the global population and hence treated them as inferior and second-class citizens. It makes me puke that these nations are trying to ``establish freedom and democracy`` in the developing world. Europeans talking about freedom and democracy is like a castrated rapist extolling the virtues of celibacy.

If Iraq did not have the second-largest oil reserves in the world, no US administration would have give a hoot about it. For that matter they would not have give a damn when Kuwait got invaded if Kuwait did not have oil as well. For the $200-300 billion or whatever they have spent on this war, if they were truly interested in spreading democracy and improving the lives of people, they could have tried it in Sub-Saharan Africa. It was more do-able and would have been beneficial for both regions especially since America has a large Black population. Except for the small fact that Africa does not have oil that can be looted easily.

If the United States was truly interested in democracy in the region they should have started with Saudi Arabia. Its treatment of women, non-whites, and non-Muslims is despicable to say the least. US treats Saudis as friends and allies. So they should have put pressure on the Saudis to reform and have a functioning democracy. Then with Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, etc. That would have shown the world especially the Middle East that the US was truly interested in a democratic Middle East. Even if a Hamas type unfriendly regime wins a national election then so be it. Regime changes are being talked about only in nations that are not compliant like Syria and Iran. Iran for whatever the drawbacks has a much better democratic structure than Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.

Iraq was one of the few secular nations in the region. One of the few that allowed women to vote, drive, take up any jobs. Saddam may have been a tyrant but probably considering the violent nature of that region since times immemorial maybe that was a necessity. Anyway, far more people are being killed each day than what Saddam was charged with. Especially by the ``democratic peace loving`` American and British troops. Saddam was one guy who kept the Islamic fundamentalists in check and Iraqis themselves abhorred fundamentalism and terrorism. Today, if the region has become a hotbed of jehadis then look to Washington for the reason.

Ranjitbhai, this democracy and human rights talk is propaganda for gullible white masses. Your skin is brown like mine and you should no better.

Re: # 18 for once you make sense HP. Incompetence upto a point. But would also consider the point, that the west tried to do a Eastern Europe, and japan Germany before that, on Iraq. When you say ``The failure started when the war was diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq on lies that people slowly caught on to.``, you are falling into the same trap, where you are attributing your sense of rationale (which is western) to the Iraqis in particular and the Islamic world in general.

In the long term the west is wining - since eventually it, Iraq will be left in pieces or in a state where pieces is what it will become.

To the author:

I agree that Muslims have some genuine greivances but many others also have genuine greivances against Muslims as well. This ``Bechara Musalman`` sob story won`t serve any constructive purpose. Have you analysed how Muslims have hurt others? As the Hindi saying goes, ``taali kewal ek haath se nahin bajti`` (you can`t clap with one hand).

You talk about the Pope`s comments against Islam. The Pope is without a doubt a bigoted jerk who has made derogatory references to Hinduism and Buddhism as well. However, while the entire Muslim world was riled up about the Pope`s remarks, I have not heard anything about the textbooks taught in Pakistani primary schools that teach kay se kaafir and show a Hindu Pandit or zay se zaalim and show a Sikh. Or that Hindus pray in dark, narrow places. Or textbooks in Saudi Arabia and many other Arab nations that teach Jews as pigs. You were all worked up when a Danish newspaper cartoon published Mohammed cartoons. How come you were all silent when a Muslim painter, MoFo Hussian, painted nude paintings of Indian goddesses? When a group of Hindus destroyed Babri Masjid at a disputed site it led to riots killing thousands. How come the entire Muslim world was silent when the Muslim Taliban blew up centuries old Bamiyan statues despite an offer by Japanese and others to buy them? Contrast this with the attitude of the Buddhists who did not hurt a single Muslim in retaliation.

A couple of years ago France banned the wearing of Hijab, turban or other religious objects in school. Something I disagree with but besides the point. However, there was protests over it and there was a Muslim demonstration outside a French consulate in Canada. One of the Pakistani chowkies had written an article where he stated that he went up to one of the protestors and asked if they planned to hold a similar protest outside the Saudi embassy since it does not allow non-Muslims to wear their religious objects. The guy said no and refused to answer when asked why not?

So the bottom line is that if the Muslims want peace and friendship then they will have to make an attempt to meet half-way.

lets face it. The whole of the Islamic World is full of G_phattoos. Full of hot air and really doesnot amount to much. Even the so called ``more civlised`` islamic nations like Pakistan are a bunch of civilisational no-hopers. They have had a chance and they pissed into the winds. Educationally backward. Economically backward. Civilisationally backward. Inept. Incapable of producing anything worthwhile the world needs (okay Dubai seems to be fast becoming a notable exception), and yet crying out loud about neo-colonialism and blaming the world for their own internal ills. Shear laziness of the mind I say.

This article is an excellent case in point. There is nothing in there which makes me think, okay here is something which is workable. Its another jobsworthies pourings.

I am looking forward to an article or a series of articles, which looks at the troubles in the eye, and doesnot blame the west, colonialism, and neo-colonialism for the troubles. Once you start doing that you will find solutionsinternally for the problems. Till then the west will march ahead and all you will here from on ahead is sayonara.

How does the rest of humanity deal with these people ?





`Taleban law` passed in Pakistan

Pakistan`s North West Frontier Province (NWFP) has passed a bill setting up a Taleban-style department under a cleric to enforce Islamic morality.
It gives the new department the power to use the police and media for the promotion of Islamic values.

Re: # 43 like this

Muslim clerics fighting polio in India

By BISWAJEET BANERJEE, Associated Press Writer Sun Nov 12, 5:47 PM ET

LUCKNOW, India - Farzaan Siddaqui beat up the last health workers who visited his home to vaccinate his children for polio. Like many Muslims in India, he thought the program was an infidel plot to make his community infertile.
ADVERTISEMENT

Local health workers tried again Sunday, this time led through Siddaqui`s Muslim neighborhood by a local cleric, one of scores of community leaders volunteering for an anti-polio campaign in India`s most populous state, Uttar Pradesh.

The campaign aims to vaccinate some 50 million children across the impoverished state, which has seen 438 polio cases this year, 25 of them over the past week. A smaller number of cases have also emerged in some other states, raising fears of a widespread resurgence of a disease once nearly wiped out in the country.

Sunday`s campaign focused on Uttar Pradesh`s Muslim neighborhoods, where many residents have routinely stayed away from polio immunization programs.

As the health care workers approached Siddaqui`s house in Lucknow, one of them whispered, ``This is a negative locality for us.
Polio vaccine is a big no for them.``

Siddaqui assaulted health workers in August as they tried to persuade him to immunize his 3-year-old son and 1-year-old daughter.

But this time, Wajhat Valdi — a cleric who would normally spend the day preaching at a local mosque — walked in while the health workers stayed outdoors.

It did not take him long to win over Siddaqui, who came out smiling some 15 minutes later. A vial of polio vaccine was handed to Valdi for Siddaqui`s children.

Within moments, others in the neighborhood joined in.

``I am so happy that they have listened to me,`` Valdi said. ``It was the will of Allah that I should come here.``

Polio infects children younger than 5, spreading through contaminated water and attacking the nervous system. The disease can cause paralysis and deformation or be fatal.

Three years ago, India almost wiped out the disease after an intense nationwide vaccination campaign, but a combination of factors — including illiteracy and superstitious beliefs — kept many children from receiving immunizations.

Nearly three-quarters of new polio cases in Uttar Pradesh were in Muslim families, said A. K. Mishra, the top bureaucrat in the state`s health department. Most Muslims in the state are poor and illiterate.

In the past, banners and posters were put up in villages warning Muslims against allowing health workers into their homes. Propaganda spread that polio vaccines were a form of sterilization and a Western ploy to reduce the Muslim birth rate.

On Sunday, clerics and community leaders appeared on local television channels, urging Muslim families to vaccinate their children.

``Polio drops are safe and do not affect the health of your children,`` said Khalid Rashid, also a cleric, in a television appeal made in Urdu.

Re: # 44

............. i think daisy cutters work better with this breed .......

Reply to #42 by queen_cut&paste on November 13, 2006 8:38am PT
lets face it. The whole of the Islamic World is full of G_phattoos. Full of hot air and really doesnot amount to much. Even the so called ``more civlised`` islamic nations like Pakistan are a bunch of civilisational no-hopers. They have had a chance and they pissed into the winds. Educationally backward. Economically backward. Civilisationally backward.

Queen I am not sure where are you from but I guess you are from India. In that case how is India, Sri Lanka or the rest of South Asia better than Pakistan or the Muslim world? Our exchange rate to the dollar is the same. Pakistan gets its sophisticated technology from China and the West, India gets it from Russia and the West. IMO the difference is not between Muslim world and the West, its between East and the West and North and the South.

Re: # 47

nauman,

....... i hate to point this out, but we pakis need to wake up and smell the chai .......... the market capitalization of the karachi stock exchange is about 47 billion dollars; the mukesh ambani group which consists of reliance industries and a few other groups has a market cap of about $45 billion ..........mukesh ambani`s net worth is almost $15B............ wipro has a market cap of about $20B ............ do the math yourself (that is, if you can)

........... as much as you might want to ignore it, the horrible hindoos are on the march while the paki fools have their heads stuck up their mullah-ravaged keesters ..............