Building Barriers in Britain
Farouq Taj October 27, 2006
#53 Posted by billdunc on February 8, 2007 11:30:33 am
Hi Farouq,
I live in Britain also and I was very heartened to read your article. Many normally tolerant people in the mainstream white british part of our society are becoming very fed up with some of the extremist Muslims and their behaviour. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it is unlikely that such people represent the views of average and equally tolerant Muslims. It is a pity that voices such as yours from the Muslim community are not heard more in our British media. But I suppose moderation and commonsense dont sell papers do they?
I live in Britain also and I was very heartened to read your article. Many normally tolerant people in the mainstream white british part of our society are becoming very fed up with some of the extremist Muslims and their behaviour. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it is unlikely that such people represent the views of average and equally tolerant Muslims. It is a pity that voices such as yours from the Muslim community are not heard more in our British media. But I suppose moderation and commonsense dont sell papers do they?
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#52 Posted by arjun2 on November 4, 2006 12:36:33 pm
China doesn`t have a problem with it`s muslims? Didn`t u`all read the article I posted about how the chicoms keep their muslims under their boots?
Muslims feel the long arm of Beijing
In Xinjiang, which is of strategic importance to China, Uighurs try to maintain their culture despite strict oversight.
By Mark Magnier
Times Staff Writer
October 23, 2006
HOTAN, CHINA — Mullah Masude, 63, removes his shoes and gingerly navigates an expanse of cheap carpeting in the Jaman mosque`s main worship area before climbing a set of rickety steps to the roof.
Powered by a good set of lungs and lots of practice, the cleric belts out the afternoon call to prayer. Despite his best efforts, the chant is all but drowned out by the din of a single-stroke tractor engine and a passing bus.
Beijing bars mullahs from using loudspeakers, one of dozens of rules critics say are designed to mute Islam`s voice in China, particularly among the Uighur minority here in the far-western region of Xinjiang, which the government considers a separatist threat.
Signs and banners at mosque entrances in Hotan, Kashgar and other western cities make it clear who is boss.
``Completely abide by the Communist Party`s religious policy,`` reads an oversized banner straddling the gate of Hotan`s Imam Asim tomb, half a mile over desert dunes from the nearest road. ``Actively lead religion toward a just socialist society.``
More than 2,000 miles to the east, Beijing seems a world away, which partly explains officials` deep-seated fear that the region`s more than 8 million Uighurs will unite to form an independent state.
Mutton and flat bread trump pork and rice as the cuisine of choice, blue eyes and light skin are common, and many people speak only a few words of Mandarin.
Although most Uighurs are proud of their history, distinct language and centuries-old culture, they tend to see a Uighur homeland as a distant dream, given Beijing`s tight grip and economic clout.
``I`m not in favor of it, nor do I think it`s possible,`` said Elham Adl, 22, a Uighur tour guide in Dushanzi, a town in northern Xinjiang. ``I don`t want to see Xinjiang become a second Iraq. And if Xinjiang became independent, we`d lose access to China`s big market.``
But Beijing isn`t taking any chances, critics say, and it continues to intimidate the clergy, weaken Uighur culture through assimilation policies and otherwise stifle dissent.
The strategy has been successful, largely putting an end to the bombings, protests and unrest of the 1990s, though some say China has only driven resentment underground.
``They put out the fire,`` said Dru C. Gladney, an anthropologist and president of Pomona College`s Pacific Basin Institute. ``But the embers are smoldering. And unless they address hearts and minds, it will flare again.``
The government`s iron grip underscores Xinjiang`s strategic importance. The region has huge reserves of oil, gas, gold and uranium. It is home to the nation`s Lop Nor nuclear testing facility.
With 17% of Chinese territory but just 1.5% of its people, Xinjiang is an important release valve for population pressures. It`s a buffer against rival Russia. And any loosening would set a precedent for pro-independence movements in Taiwan and Tibet.
``Xinjiang is very important to China`s security,`` said Raphael Israeli, a fellow at the Truman Research Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ``They will have to do what it takes when a rebellion becomes evident.``
In the meantime, Beijing is working to soften local hearts and minds to its position, albeit in a sometimes heavy-handed manner.
`Love the motherland`
Ayinoor, a Uighur civil servant in her early 20s, is required to attend ideology classes for two hours a day aimed at hammering home the glories of the Communist Party, the danger of separatism and the benefits of national unity. Like others interviewed, she declined to give her family name for fear of losing her job.
If lecturing doesn`t win her over, there`s music, including a version of the party`s recent ``Eight Virtues and Eight Shames`` campaign that she`s required to sing, with such lines as ``It`s most glorious to love the motherland, a great sin to harm her.`` There`s economic incentive: If she doesn`t do well on a weekly political thought quiz, her pay is docked.
``I`m only telling you this,`` she said in the shadow of the historic Id Kah mosque in Kashgar, near two police cars and an army truck and a sign that read, ``All ethnic groups warmly welcome the party`s religious policies.``
``At work I have to say, `I love everything Han Chinese` or I get into trouble,`` she said, referring to the majority ethnic group.
Uighur clerics had ignored the ban on government employees entering mosques. But religious authorities started threatening their jobs as well. Now they report on attendees, who risk losing their jobs or worse. More than 300 Uighur civil servants have been jailed in recent years for their beliefs, locals say, and some were beaten to death.
Government officials were not available for comment, and the figure could not be verified.
Beijing`s longer-term goal is to create a new generation of Mandarin-speaking Uighurs with fewer ties to Islam or traditional Uighur culture, critics say, including programs that send the brightest young Uighurs to Mandarin-only schools in other provinces.
``Chinese is very difficult, but it`s the language of the marketplace,`` said Shiaili, 14, a student in Urumqi. ``I`ve studied for two years. Sometimes I forget some of my Uighur.``
Government officials did not respond to written requests for an interview. But Chinese minority and ethnic affairs officials in the past have denied trying to dilute Uighur culture and say they`re raising living standards and spurring entrepreneurship, as seen, they say, by an economy that has grown forty-twofold since 1955.
But government officials also promise to remain vigilant. They blame separatist groups for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.
``In Xinjiang, the separatists, religious extremists and violent terrorists are all around us,`` Wang Lexiang, Xinjiang`s deputy chief of public security, said in August. ``In China, endangering national security is the No. 1 crime. We have to crack down on it severely.``
The Sept. 11 attacks gave Beijing a new argument, allowing it to tar pro-independence Uighurs as radical Muslims with ties to Al Qaeda, claims that are viewed with skepticism.
``China saw 9/11 as the best opportunity since 1949 to crack down on Uighur people,`` said Alim Seytoff, general secretary of the Washington-based Uighur American Assn., which advocates the creation of an independent state called East Turkistan through nonviolent means. ``China makes allegations that can`t be proven, but after 9/11 it`s very hard to champion your cause if you`re Muslim.``
Wary of the link between religion and politics, China prohibits anyone younger than 18 from entering a mosque or receiving a Muslim education.
``I don`t know if it`s right or wrong, but it`s the law,`` said Sulika, 43, a former soldier turned fruit seller, chomping down on a stew of sheep organs and intestine casings stuffed with rice.
Schools also require students to eat during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting and atonement. ``If they don`t eat, they get disciplined by the teachers,`` Sulika said.
Religious study for prospective clerics and others older than 18 must take place in heavily monitored government schools and after an extensive background check. At that age, many young Uighurs don`t bother, having been seduced by video games and modern distractions.
``By that time, most aren`t interested,`` said Ma Xueliang, a Muslim cleric at the Qinghai mosque in Urumqi.
If persuasion and distraction don`t work, there`s brute force. Xinjiang is riddled with informants, human rights activists say, amid claims that 1,000 Uighurs were executed and more than 10,000 imprisoned during a 1996-97 crackdown. Detentions have fallen off more recently, they say, because intimidation tactics are working.
``Control over Xinjiang society is very minute,`` said Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher with Human Rights Watch. ``It`s impressive and reminiscent of Soviet Union times.``
New generation of mullahs
After 1990, the authorities replaced many longtime mullahs with a new generation educated in Chinese patriotic programs, and began paying their salaries directly and requiring annual license renewals.
In many parts of Xinjiang, mullahs are required to clear their Friday sermons, limited to 30 minutes, with local religious affairs bureaus and are punished for deviating from the script. Those who resist Chinese policy, by arguing, for instance, against abortion or family planning policies on religious grounds, are fired or jailed.
``My neighbor, an imam, was arrested 12 years ago for saying something the government didn`t like,`` said one Uighur government worker, who asked not to be identified. ``He`s still in jail. Their message is clear: Keep your mouth shut.``
Muslims feel the long arm of Beijing
In Xinjiang, which is of strategic importance to China, Uighurs try to maintain their culture despite strict oversight.
By Mark Magnier
Times Staff Writer
October 23, 2006
HOTAN, CHINA — Mullah Masude, 63, removes his shoes and gingerly navigates an expanse of cheap carpeting in the Jaman mosque`s main worship area before climbing a set of rickety steps to the roof.
Powered by a good set of lungs and lots of practice, the cleric belts out the afternoon call to prayer. Despite his best efforts, the chant is all but drowned out by the din of a single-stroke tractor engine and a passing bus.
Beijing bars mullahs from using loudspeakers, one of dozens of rules critics say are designed to mute Islam`s voice in China, particularly among the Uighur minority here in the far-western region of Xinjiang, which the government considers a separatist threat.
Signs and banners at mosque entrances in Hotan, Kashgar and other western cities make it clear who is boss.
``Completely abide by the Communist Party`s religious policy,`` reads an oversized banner straddling the gate of Hotan`s Imam Asim tomb, half a mile over desert dunes from the nearest road. ``Actively lead religion toward a just socialist society.``
More than 2,000 miles to the east, Beijing seems a world away, which partly explains officials` deep-seated fear that the region`s more than 8 million Uighurs will unite to form an independent state.
Mutton and flat bread trump pork and rice as the cuisine of choice, blue eyes and light skin are common, and many people speak only a few words of Mandarin.
Although most Uighurs are proud of their history, distinct language and centuries-old culture, they tend to see a Uighur homeland as a distant dream, given Beijing`s tight grip and economic clout.
``I`m not in favor of it, nor do I think it`s possible,`` said Elham Adl, 22, a Uighur tour guide in Dushanzi, a town in northern Xinjiang. ``I don`t want to see Xinjiang become a second Iraq. And if Xinjiang became independent, we`d lose access to China`s big market.``
But Beijing isn`t taking any chances, critics say, and it continues to intimidate the clergy, weaken Uighur culture through assimilation policies and otherwise stifle dissent.
The strategy has been successful, largely putting an end to the bombings, protests and unrest of the 1990s, though some say China has only driven resentment underground.
``They put out the fire,`` said Dru C. Gladney, an anthropologist and president of Pomona College`s Pacific Basin Institute. ``But the embers are smoldering. And unless they address hearts and minds, it will flare again.``
The government`s iron grip underscores Xinjiang`s strategic importance. The region has huge reserves of oil, gas, gold and uranium. It is home to the nation`s Lop Nor nuclear testing facility.
With 17% of Chinese territory but just 1.5% of its people, Xinjiang is an important release valve for population pressures. It`s a buffer against rival Russia. And any loosening would set a precedent for pro-independence movements in Taiwan and Tibet.
``Xinjiang is very important to China`s security,`` said Raphael Israeli, a fellow at the Truman Research Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ``They will have to do what it takes when a rebellion becomes evident.``
In the meantime, Beijing is working to soften local hearts and minds to its position, albeit in a sometimes heavy-handed manner.
`Love the motherland`
Ayinoor, a Uighur civil servant in her early 20s, is required to attend ideology classes for two hours a day aimed at hammering home the glories of the Communist Party, the danger of separatism and the benefits of national unity. Like others interviewed, she declined to give her family name for fear of losing her job.
If lecturing doesn`t win her over, there`s music, including a version of the party`s recent ``Eight Virtues and Eight Shames`` campaign that she`s required to sing, with such lines as ``It`s most glorious to love the motherland, a great sin to harm her.`` There`s economic incentive: If she doesn`t do well on a weekly political thought quiz, her pay is docked.
``I`m only telling you this,`` she said in the shadow of the historic Id Kah mosque in Kashgar, near two police cars and an army truck and a sign that read, ``All ethnic groups warmly welcome the party`s religious policies.``
``At work I have to say, `I love everything Han Chinese` or I get into trouble,`` she said, referring to the majority ethnic group.
Uighur clerics had ignored the ban on government employees entering mosques. But religious authorities started threatening their jobs as well. Now they report on attendees, who risk losing their jobs or worse. More than 300 Uighur civil servants have been jailed in recent years for their beliefs, locals say, and some were beaten to death.
Government officials were not available for comment, and the figure could not be verified.
Beijing`s longer-term goal is to create a new generation of Mandarin-speaking Uighurs with fewer ties to Islam or traditional Uighur culture, critics say, including programs that send the brightest young Uighurs to Mandarin-only schools in other provinces.
``Chinese is very difficult, but it`s the language of the marketplace,`` said Shiaili, 14, a student in Urumqi. ``I`ve studied for two years. Sometimes I forget some of my Uighur.``
Government officials did not respond to written requests for an interview. But Chinese minority and ethnic affairs officials in the past have denied trying to dilute Uighur culture and say they`re raising living standards and spurring entrepreneurship, as seen, they say, by an economy that has grown forty-twofold since 1955.
But government officials also promise to remain vigilant. They blame separatist groups for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.
``In Xinjiang, the separatists, religious extremists and violent terrorists are all around us,`` Wang Lexiang, Xinjiang`s deputy chief of public security, said in August. ``In China, endangering national security is the No. 1 crime. We have to crack down on it severely.``
The Sept. 11 attacks gave Beijing a new argument, allowing it to tar pro-independence Uighurs as radical Muslims with ties to Al Qaeda, claims that are viewed with skepticism.
``China saw 9/11 as the best opportunity since 1949 to crack down on Uighur people,`` said Alim Seytoff, general secretary of the Washington-based Uighur American Assn., which advocates the creation of an independent state called East Turkistan through nonviolent means. ``China makes allegations that can`t be proven, but after 9/11 it`s very hard to champion your cause if you`re Muslim.``
Wary of the link between religion and politics, China prohibits anyone younger than 18 from entering a mosque or receiving a Muslim education.
``I don`t know if it`s right or wrong, but it`s the law,`` said Sulika, 43, a former soldier turned fruit seller, chomping down on a stew of sheep organs and intestine casings stuffed with rice.
Schools also require students to eat during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting and atonement. ``If they don`t eat, they get disciplined by the teachers,`` Sulika said.
Religious study for prospective clerics and others older than 18 must take place in heavily monitored government schools and after an extensive background check. At that age, many young Uighurs don`t bother, having been seduced by video games and modern distractions.
``By that time, most aren`t interested,`` said Ma Xueliang, a Muslim cleric at the Qinghai mosque in Urumqi.
If persuasion and distraction don`t work, there`s brute force. Xinjiang is riddled with informants, human rights activists say, amid claims that 1,000 Uighurs were executed and more than 10,000 imprisoned during a 1996-97 crackdown. Detentions have fallen off more recently, they say, because intimidation tactics are working.
``Control over Xinjiang society is very minute,`` said Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher with Human Rights Watch. ``It`s impressive and reminiscent of Soviet Union times.``
New generation of mullahs
After 1990, the authorities replaced many longtime mullahs with a new generation educated in Chinese patriotic programs, and began paying their salaries directly and requiring annual license renewals.
In many parts of Xinjiang, mullahs are required to clear their Friday sermons, limited to 30 minutes, with local religious affairs bureaus and are punished for deviating from the script. Those who resist Chinese policy, by arguing, for instance, against abortion or family planning policies on religious grounds, are fired or jailed.
``My neighbor, an imam, was arrested 12 years ago for saying something the government didn`t like,`` said one Uighur government worker, who asked not to be identified. ``He`s still in jail. Their message is clear: Keep your mouth shut.``
#51 Posted by teshah on November 3, 2006 6:01:28 pm
Re: # 49
zeemax
You say:
``the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?``
A good point indeed, but have a simple answer `Love begets love and hate begets hate`. The Arabs of the prophet`s time had little contact with the said nations and so no question of `Islamo or Zeno-phobias`. Jews and Christians who considered them to be true believer in the abrahamic or Judaic religion considered the prophet of Islam to be an impostor as the Muslims of today consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad an impostor. They all hate each other for obvious reasons of jealousy. As for the communist and Buddhist nations which did not believe even in any prophet or god, they have nothing to vie with these religions and hence no clash with them. Nevertheless, Kublai Khan, the great Mongol Emperor of China, did have a brush with Islam when there were only a few Muslims in China. It was reported to the Khan that there were some Chinese who believed in a new religion called Islam whose book called upon them to kill non-muslim kafirs. The Khan called for the leader of the muslims to verify the report. A Mulla was brought before him and here is the dialogue between them:
Khan; Is it right that you religious book calls upon you to kill kafirs?
Mulla: Yes, it is so.
Khan: Then why don`t you kill me?
Mulla; It is not our time. We will see to it when our time comes.
Khan, upon hearing this, got enraged like a ruthless Mongol and issued an order that all muslims in his realm be gathered and annihilated before their time comes to do the same to us in accordance with their teachings.
This caused great consternation among the muslims all over the world who had already tasted the ruthlessness of the Mongols. So some sensible muslims got together and went to seek audience with the khan to avoid the massacer of the muslims. They appeared before the Kahn and submitted that they did not consider the Mongols to be kafirs as they do believe in some super power (Mongols believed the sky `Aasman` to be the super power at the time).
Interestingly, these nations -Chinese, Koreans, etc. - do not believe in any super power (even America) now, even `aasman` - but they are the best friends of the Muslims, especially of the pakyones. The reason is not any sort of mania but sheer political interests at large.
zeemax
You say:
``the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?``
A good point indeed, but have a simple answer `Love begets love and hate begets hate`. The Arabs of the prophet`s time had little contact with the said nations and so no question of `Islamo or Zeno-phobias`. Jews and Christians who considered them to be true believer in the abrahamic or Judaic religion considered the prophet of Islam to be an impostor as the Muslims of today consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad an impostor. They all hate each other for obvious reasons of jealousy. As for the communist and Buddhist nations which did not believe even in any prophet or god, they have nothing to vie with these religions and hence no clash with them. Nevertheless, Kublai Khan, the great Mongol Emperor of China, did have a brush with Islam when there were only a few Muslims in China. It was reported to the Khan that there were some Chinese who believed in a new religion called Islam whose book called upon them to kill non-muslim kafirs. The Khan called for the leader of the muslims to verify the report. A Mulla was brought before him and here is the dialogue between them:
Khan; Is it right that you religious book calls upon you to kill kafirs?
Mulla: Yes, it is so.
Khan: Then why don`t you kill me?
Mulla; It is not our time. We will see to it when our time comes.
Khan, upon hearing this, got enraged like a ruthless Mongol and issued an order that all muslims in his realm be gathered and annihilated before their time comes to do the same to us in accordance with their teachings.
This caused great consternation among the muslims all over the world who had already tasted the ruthlessness of the Mongols. So some sensible muslims got together and went to seek audience with the khan to avoid the massacer of the muslims. They appeared before the Kahn and submitted that they did not consider the Mongols to be kafirs as they do believe in some super power (Mongols believed the sky `Aasman` to be the super power at the time).
Interestingly, these nations -Chinese, Koreans, etc. - do not believe in any super power (even America) now, even `aasman` - but they are the best friends of the Muslims, especially of the pakyones. The reason is not any sort of mania but sheer political interests at large.
#50 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 3, 2006 7:07:07 am
Re: # 49
Zee Bhai,
My humble submission is that noone is threatened by veil. I mean how ridiculous does the statement sound, ``I am threatened by veil``, well if you r neurotic OK. I feel sorry for u but go see a doctor. We don`t formulate the norms and policies of our societies on the basis of minority`s mental problems. If infact britons or americans are threatened by veil, beard, muslims etc. then there is a democratic way to resolve those issues. GET THEM BANNED THRU DUE PROCESS. It`s really that simple. But they can`t cause the majority of these countries could care less about these stupid nuiances, they are worried about their healthcare, social security not to mention their sons and daughetrs getting blown up in pieces in IRAQ. Those are the real issues for the west.
As for the deranged expats (i m one myself hopefully not a deranged one but its up for discussion), majority of these people have always had low-self esteem for one reason or another. That`s no excuse for me to harp on them but it becomes my problem when they start acting as the mouth-piece for my religion just because they have a Islamic sounding name. See when i was a kid i knew that if i studied harder i would get just as good grades as irfan did, but i was more interested in playing cricket. Irfan however was a total nerd n to some extent i think enjoyed being around books. It wold have been OK by me if my father wouldn`t constantly shoved his grades in my face, so my utmost focus was to not only make sure that i get to play cricket but some how get irfan away from the books as well. It sounds malicious but thats human psychology for u. Noone is saying that veil is compulsory least of all women that are doing it in western countries. They are merely doing it because THEY think it`s a command of Allah SWT and they are obliging. I personally don`t think that it`s a requirement to hide your face. But if i try to some how make sure just on a whim mind you, that if I get in trouble infront of Allah SWT then everyone else should as well then it`s quite understandable from a human psychology point of view, however its not the right thing to do. It`s our own short comings that haunt us and thats why we become hostile.
Zee Bhai,
My humble submission is that noone is threatened by veil. I mean how ridiculous does the statement sound, ``I am threatened by veil``, well if you r neurotic OK. I feel sorry for u but go see a doctor. We don`t formulate the norms and policies of our societies on the basis of minority`s mental problems. If infact britons or americans are threatened by veil, beard, muslims etc. then there is a democratic way to resolve those issues. GET THEM BANNED THRU DUE PROCESS. It`s really that simple. But they can`t cause the majority of these countries could care less about these stupid nuiances, they are worried about their healthcare, social security not to mention their sons and daughetrs getting blown up in pieces in IRAQ. Those are the real issues for the west.
As for the deranged expats (i m one myself hopefully not a deranged one but its up for discussion), majority of these people have always had low-self esteem for one reason or another. That`s no excuse for me to harp on them but it becomes my problem when they start acting as the mouth-piece for my religion just because they have a Islamic sounding name. See when i was a kid i knew that if i studied harder i would get just as good grades as irfan did, but i was more interested in playing cricket. Irfan however was a total nerd n to some extent i think enjoyed being around books. It wold have been OK by me if my father wouldn`t constantly shoved his grades in my face, so my utmost focus was to not only make sure that i get to play cricket but some how get irfan away from the books as well. It sounds malicious but thats human psychology for u. Noone is saying that veil is compulsory least of all women that are doing it in western countries. They are merely doing it because THEY think it`s a command of Allah SWT and they are obliging. I personally don`t think that it`s a requirement to hide your face. But if i try to some how make sure just on a whim mind you, that if I get in trouble infront of Allah SWT then everyone else should as well then it`s quite understandable from a human psychology point of view, however its not the right thing to do. It`s our own short comings that haunt us and thats why we become hostile.
#49 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2006 2:09:31 am
#47 by abu_safwaan
Well Abu, you must have noticed that Islamophobia is as rampant on chowk as anywhere else ... nothing new. And the funny part is that many muslims, particularly the ex-pat variety, are more Islamophobic than other religionists. This phenomenon needs to be studied, not fought. Believe me I`ve learnt this after a hell of a lot of fights.
For example, let`s say, the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?
Well Abu, you must have noticed that Islamophobia is as rampant on chowk as anywhere else ... nothing new. And the funny part is that many muslims, particularly the ex-pat variety, are more Islamophobic than other religionists. This phenomenon needs to be studied, not fought. Believe me I`ve learnt this after a hell of a lot of fights.
For example, let`s say, the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?
#48 Posted by KaalChakra on November 2, 2006 12:31:04 pm
abu sahib
Putting those with whom we disagree ``in place`` is hardly an effective strategy any more.
As # 38 makes clear, teshah still respects your religion far more than many other people do. And that is as it should be: respect for religions is not necessary if religions ultimately preach what we find unacceptable. You woulnd`t find monkey worshipping respectable, would you?
Putting those with whom we disagree ``in place`` is hardly an effective strategy any more.
As # 38 makes clear, teshah still respects your religion far more than many other people do. And that is as it should be: respect for religions is not necessary if religions ultimately preach what we find unacceptable. You woulnd`t find monkey worshipping respectable, would you?
#47 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 2, 2006 11:48:33 am
Re: # 46
Oh hurt are we? You should have remembered mannerism when you were spewing sarcasm towards the holliest of books for about 1.5 billion people. I am not looking for discussion, anything you have to say i have already heard from asma jehangir and you are far less eloquent than her my mere purpose for interaction was to put u in ur place. Gray hair doesnt give u a free ride to take a swing at my religion. If you dish it out be prepared to take it as a man as well.
Oh hurt are we? You should have remembered mannerism when you were spewing sarcasm towards the holliest of books for about 1.5 billion people. I am not looking for discussion, anything you have to say i have already heard from asma jehangir and you are far less eloquent than her my mere purpose for interaction was to put u in ur place. Gray hair doesnt give u a free ride to take a swing at my religion. If you dish it out be prepared to take it as a man as well.
#46 Posted by teshah on November 1, 2006 5:47:16 pm
Re: # 45
Mind your manners dear. Excuse me, you have become obnoxiously personal, not fit for any dialogue or discussion on this forum.
Mind your manners dear. Excuse me, you have become obnoxiously personal, not fit for any dialogue or discussion on this forum.
#45 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 1, 2006 10:42:27 am
Re: # 38
Shah sahib,
Its your neurosis and paranoia that forces you to believe that niqabi women are declaring that all men are evil. She is maybe saying that about you if you gawk at women but she is definitely not saying that about everyone. All she is doing is following her religion according to her understanding, that understanding can be debated but her intentions shouldn’t be doubted, least of all by you who is ashamed and confused to be a muslim. For the love of GOD don’t quote quran, you obviously posses very minimal intellect and doesn’t quite understand the concept of quotations in context. Shah sahib in a democratic country she has every right to cover herself up just as your mother, daughters & wives have to bare it all. In this age you should be preparing to meet your lord rather than advocating the cause of being able to stare down niqabi women. By all means parade the women in your household in any attire of your choosing and let others have the same choice, isn’t that what democracy is all about? When you liberals force your agendas you become just as repulsive and suffocating as Taliban.
Shah sahib,
Its your neurosis and paranoia that forces you to believe that niqabi women are declaring that all men are evil. She is maybe saying that about you if you gawk at women but she is definitely not saying that about everyone. All she is doing is following her religion according to her understanding, that understanding can be debated but her intentions shouldn’t be doubted, least of all by you who is ashamed and confused to be a muslim. For the love of GOD don’t quote quran, you obviously posses very minimal intellect and doesn’t quite understand the concept of quotations in context. Shah sahib in a democratic country she has every right to cover herself up just as your mother, daughters & wives have to bare it all. In this age you should be preparing to meet your lord rather than advocating the cause of being able to stare down niqabi women. By all means parade the women in your household in any attire of your choosing and let others have the same choice, isn’t that what democracy is all about? When you liberals force your agendas you become just as repulsive and suffocating as Taliban.
#44 Posted by muqaddam on November 1, 2006 10:06:28 am
Re #41
The poem appended by you to your senseless outburst shows a creative side to your personality. Be kind enough to translate it into Urdu and post it here. You will win a friend on the Chowk
The poem appended by you to your senseless outburst shows a creative side to your personality. Be kind enough to translate it into Urdu and post it here. You will win a friend on the Chowk
#43 Posted by IamNadia on November 1, 2006 2:58:11 am
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#42 Posted by harish_hyd on November 1, 2006 1:22:51 am
#40 by zeemax
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
The only ones being kicked around these days are Pakis. Just look at the audacity with which the US whacked a Madarssah. Even puny Venezuela wouldn`t tolerate such an attack.
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
The only ones being kicked around these days are Pakis. Just look at the audacity with which the US whacked a Madarssah. Even puny Venezuela wouldn`t tolerate such an attack.
#41 Posted by IamNadia on November 1, 2006 1:18:23 am
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#40 Posted by zeemax on November 1, 2006 12:59:07 am
#37 by abu_safwaan
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
#39 Posted by muqaddam on October 31, 2006 11:55:26 pm
Re #34
No need to get hysterical. What you have to realise that you (now called Pakistanis) and us are the same people, who speak the same language, eat the same food, also squat the same way by railway lines and also beg with our katoras ( over the last sixty years you have become past masters, kneeling and begging from rich arabs, who have thrown you crumbs in exchange of some tight Punjabi pusy), since all Pakistanis are originally urine guzzling Hindu Indians, like us you also have sumptuous levels of urine content in your metabolism. Just accept the fact that you are just Indians what turned Paki, and you will find the everelusive peace of mind.
No need to get hysterical. What you have to realise that you (now called Pakistanis) and us are the same people, who speak the same language, eat the same food, also squat the same way by railway lines and also beg with our katoras ( over the last sixty years you have become past masters, kneeling and begging from rich arabs, who have thrown you crumbs in exchange of some tight Punjabi pusy), since all Pakistanis are originally urine guzzling Hindu Indians, like us you also have sumptuous levels of urine content in your metabolism. Just accept the fact that you are just Indians what turned Paki, and you will find the everelusive peace of mind.
#38 Posted by teshah on October 31, 2006 6:07:50 pm
Well done dear Taj. But you left one aspect of the issue - bad manners. A woman in niqab is declaring that all men are evil and that she is too chaste to be seen by them while she is free to see and recognize them. According to Quran it is quite otherwise as evidenced in the story of Yusaf and Zulekha. Again, a Quranic advice to Hazat Suleman says ``Go after a lion and snake but dont go after a woman (120/3, Ehyaulaloom)``. As regards Hadees, there is a saying of the prophet to the effect that the woman is a snare (jaal) of Satan (Ditto). The British Societry seems to have been caught in that satanic snare and only muslims like you dear Taj can tell them how to get out of it as they are not aware of the guiles of the muslim women with a mindset developed in a Talibani society.
#37 Posted by abu_safwaan on October 31, 2006 1:24:10 pm
RE:36 & 35
You guys are taking this too seriously. I have always maintained that you can not have any kind of meaningful & serious discussion with people that seem to believe that cow-piss is somehow rainwater from heaven and as for buprinder or whatever why would you get excited about something said by a person who seems to believe that longer and unkept pubes is the only desire of there ``GOD``.
We are suppose to defend Islam infront of morons who are bowing down to statues made of clay? Shouldn`t they rather worship the guy who is making the statues? Should we not be concerned about women being burnt alive with their dead husabnds in this day and age rather than worrying about what muslim women are wearing? Should we not be concerned that majority of women are forced in to abortion in India as soon as they find out that the baby is a girl?
End of the world must be near that Hindus and Sikhs are questioning the wisdom of Islam. I mean isnt it ironic that the followers of religions that force people to to burn their daughters and sisters alive would come roaring for women-right? We are suppose to explain God`s plan to a people whose only religious distinction is never shaven pubes, is this twilight zone
?
You guys are taking this too seriously. I have always maintained that you can not have any kind of meaningful & serious discussion with people that seem to believe that cow-piss is somehow rainwater from heaven and as for buprinder or whatever why would you get excited about something said by a person who seems to believe that longer and unkept pubes is the only desire of there ``GOD``.
We are suppose to defend Islam infront of morons who are bowing down to statues made of clay? Shouldn`t they rather worship the guy who is making the statues? Should we not be concerned about women being burnt alive with their dead husabnds in this day and age rather than worrying about what muslim women are wearing? Should we not be concerned that majority of women are forced in to abortion in India as soon as they find out that the baby is a girl?
End of the world must be near that Hindus and Sikhs are questioning the wisdom of Islam. I mean isnt it ironic that the followers of religions that force people to to burn their daughters and sisters alive would come roaring for women-right? We are suppose to explain God`s plan to a people whose only religious distinction is never shaven pubes, is this twilight zone
?
#36 Posted by IamNadia on October 31, 2006 7:27:43 am
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#35 Posted by zeemax on October 31, 2006 7:21:55 am
#33 by IamNadia
But Nadia .. who wants to see her boobs? Ugh......
But Nadia .. who wants to see her boobs? Ugh......
#34 Posted by zeemax on October 31, 2006 7:20:07 am
#32 by miqad-damn
You won`t find this kind of poverty anywhere in Pak. Macaca is written all over their faces.
You won`t find this kind of poverty anywhere in Pak. Macaca is written all over their faces.
#33 Posted by IamNadia on October 31, 2006 7:17:48 am
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#32 Posted by muqaddam on October 31, 2006 4:54:42 am
Re #31
Let`s wait for somebody to ferret out and post pictures of wretched Pakistanis who are looking poorer than this lot and among them will no doubt be family members of the poster of interact #31, if these are not Pakistanis , that is. Breaks the monotony of the written word, this picture thing.
Let`s wait for somebody to ferret out and post pictures of wretched Pakistanis who are looking poorer than this lot and among them will no doubt be family members of the poster of interact #31, if these are not Pakistanis , that is. Breaks the monotony of the written word, this picture thing.
#31 Posted by IamNadia on October 31, 2006 1:38:49 am
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#30 Posted by IamNadia on October 30, 2006 11:04:53 pm
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#29 Posted by burpinder on October 30, 2006 10:21:17 pm
Re: # 28
To clarify:
*good Muslims: people who practice their faith quietly without thrusting it into everyone else`s face and/or making a nuisance of themselves in general (blowing selves up included)
*great faith: a faith that influences a billion plus people to live righteous, moral lives in peace and harmony with the rest of the world
To clarify:
*good Muslims: people who practice their faith quietly without thrusting it into everyone else`s face and/or making a nuisance of themselves in general (blowing selves up included)
*great faith: a faith that influences a billion plus people to live righteous, moral lives in peace and harmony with the rest of the world
#28 Posted by wiseguyin on October 30, 2006 11:36:44 am
Re: # 27
> Please tell me, oh good Muslims, that these morons who did it all in the name of your great
> faith do not make you laugh out loud...
good muslims
great faith
wats with all the sucking up ???
> Please tell me, oh good Muslims, that these morons who did it all in the name of your great
> faith do not make you laugh out loud...
good muslims
great faith
wats with all the sucking up ???
#27 Posted by burpinder on October 30, 2006 9:11:20 am
There`s nothing in this article that doesn`t seem rather obvious, but I`m glad someone said it who is a Muslim and British.
Actually the best thing for these fundoo madarchods (Aisha the scary included) is to let them make asses of themselves in full public view till they are laughed out of all their credibility. case in point- the harebrained mullah who says Imrana has to divorce her husband because she had sex with his father and he is therefore her son ( the father-in-law raped her). Or some idiot who likes chikna boys dissing Shabana Azmi as a naachne-gaane walee because she dares air her rightful (and sensible) opinion on veils and Islam. The stupid fuck should consider himself lucky if some woman in his family achieves half of what Ms. Azmi has achieved, but fat chance because they`re all probably veiled and delirious. Or that ma ka lund down under who mistook the women in his adopted country for uncovered meat cuts like the ones his neighbourhood butcher gets him.
Please tell me, oh good Muslims, that these morons who did it all in the name of your great faith do not make you laugh out loud and say, what crawled up his/her ass and died? Tell me you don`t feel the need to defend them, or say that you understand their rage against America, or Israel.
Will this post get me banned? I don`t care. This bullshit has got to end somewhere. Maybe this article makes it stop on chowk.
Actually the best thing for these fundoo madarchods (Aisha the scary included) is to let them make asses of themselves in full public view till they are laughed out of all their credibility. case in point- the harebrained mullah who says Imrana has to divorce her husband because she had sex with his father and he is therefore her son ( the father-in-law raped her). Or some idiot who likes chikna boys dissing Shabana Azmi as a naachne-gaane walee because she dares air her rightful (and sensible) opinion on veils and Islam. The stupid fuck should consider himself lucky if some woman in his family achieves half of what Ms. Azmi has achieved, but fat chance because they`re all probably veiled and delirious. Or that ma ka lund down under who mistook the women in his adopted country for uncovered meat cuts like the ones his neighbourhood butcher gets him.
Please tell me, oh good Muslims, that these morons who did it all in the name of your great faith do not make you laugh out loud and say, what crawled up his/her ass and died? Tell me you don`t feel the need to defend them, or say that you understand their rage against America, or Israel.
Will this post get me banned? I don`t care. This bullshit has got to end somewhere. Maybe this article makes it stop on chowk.
#26 Posted by arjun2 on October 30, 2006 7:46:41 am
#15 by zeemax on October 29, 2006 1:07am PT
It is their country. They were born there.
Yes..which is why the brits expect them to not blow up subways because of what`s happening in iraq/afghanistan..and they`re shocked when more than a disturbing number of brits of paki extraction support or condone their actions..
It`s not the veil..it`s the failure to integrate...If the brit-pakis were better integrated, lack of jobs and poor performance of brit-pakis in all social spheres would be the number 1 issue, not the war in iraq..
Look in the mirror..you`re a brit-paki, aren`t you..
To summarize: It`s the jihad, stupid..
It is their country. They were born there.
Yes..which is why the brits expect them to not blow up subways because of what`s happening in iraq/afghanistan..and they`re shocked when more than a disturbing number of brits of paki extraction support or condone their actions..
It`s not the veil..it`s the failure to integrate...If the brit-pakis were better integrated, lack of jobs and poor performance of brit-pakis in all social spheres would be the number 1 issue, not the war in iraq..
Look in the mirror..you`re a brit-paki, aren`t you..
To summarize: It`s the jihad, stupid..
#25 Posted by sri on October 29, 2006 10:02:59 pm
#16 by zeemax
``Re the shipping fleet, it was the greatest error of Muslims that they never formed a merchant shipping or a naval fleet. I wonder why that was so. ``
May be there is a Quranic injunction against naval fleet.
``Re the shipping fleet, it was the greatest error of Muslims that they never formed a merchant shipping or a naval fleet. I wonder why that was so. ``
May be there is a Quranic injunction against naval fleet.
#24 Posted by harimau on October 29, 2006 9:40:41 pm
* Good evening, gentlemen, and get out, ladies.
* On my flight to New York there must have been an Israeli in the bathroom the entire time. There was a sign on the door that said, ``occupied.``
* What do you say to a Muslim woman with two black eyes? Nothing! You told her twice already!
* How many Palestinians does it take to change a light bulb? None! They sit in the dark forever and blame the Jews for it!
* Did you hear about the Broadway play, ``The Palestinians?`` It bombed!
* What do you call a first-time offender in Saudi Arabia? Lefty!
* Why do Palestinians find it convenient to live on the West Bank ? Because it`s just a stone`s throw from Israel!
* Why are Palestinian boys luckier than American boys? Because every Palestinian boy will get to join a rock group!
* What does the sign say above the nursery in a Palestinian maternity ward? ``Live ammunition.``
* A Palestinian girl says to her mommy, ``After Abdul blows himself up, can I have his room?``
* So Fatima says to me, ``My husband is so fat ...``
Naturally, I fall for it and ask, ``How fat is he?``
She says, ``My husband is so fat it took two bombs to blow him up.``
* A man goes into an adult entertainment shop and asks the assistant for an inflatable doll.
``Would you like male or female?``
``Female, please.``
``Would you like Black or White?``
``White, please.``
``Would you like Christian or Muslim?`` This question confused the man, so he asked,``What has the religion got to do with it? It`s an inflatable doll!``
``Well,`` explained the assistant,``The Muslim one blows itself up!``
* Did you hear about the Muslim strip club?
It features full facial nudity!
* What did one Palestinian woman say to the other?
Does my bomb look big in this?
* So Abdul comes up to me and I notice stitches on both his wrists. So I say to him, ``Abdul, I see you won your appeal.``
* Did you hear about the Palestinian girls` night out? They sat around getting stoned.
* Q. How can a Muslim tell if his wife is happy?
A. Who cares?
* Q. Why do Muslims wear those robes in Saudi Arabia?
A. Goats can hear a zipper a mile away.
* On my flight to New York there must have been an Israeli in the bathroom the entire time. There was a sign on the door that said, ``occupied.``
* What do you say to a Muslim woman with two black eyes? Nothing! You told her twice already!
* How many Palestinians does it take to change a light bulb? None! They sit in the dark forever and blame the Jews for it!
* Did you hear about the Broadway play, ``The Palestinians?`` It bombed!
* What do you call a first-time offender in Saudi Arabia? Lefty!
* Why do Palestinians find it convenient to live on the West Bank ? Because it`s just a stone`s throw from Israel!
* Why are Palestinian boys luckier than American boys? Because every Palestinian boy will get to join a rock group!
* What does the sign say above the nursery in a Palestinian maternity ward? ``Live ammunition.``
* A Palestinian girl says to her mommy, ``After Abdul blows himself up, can I have his room?``
* So Fatima says to me, ``My husband is so fat ...``
Naturally, I fall for it and ask, ``How fat is he?``
She says, ``My husband is so fat it took two bombs to blow him up.``
* A man goes into an adult entertainment shop and asks the assistant for an inflatable doll.
``Would you like male or female?``
``Female, please.``
``Would you like Black or White?``
``White, please.``
``Would you like Christian or Muslim?`` This question confused the man, so he asked,``What has the religion got to do with it? It`s an inflatable doll!``
``Well,`` explained the assistant,``The Muslim one blows itself up!``
* Did you hear about the Muslim strip club?
It features full facial nudity!
* What did one Palestinian woman say to the other?
Does my bomb look big in this?
* So Abdul comes up to me and I notice stitches on both his wrists. So I say to him, ``Abdul, I see you won your appeal.``
* Did you hear about the Palestinian girls` night out? They sat around getting stoned.
* Q. How can a Muslim tell if his wife is happy?
A. Who cares?
* Q. Why do Muslims wear those robes in Saudi Arabia?
A. Goats can hear a zipper a mile away.
#23 Posted by sri on October 29, 2006 6:02:16 pm
#18 hamid mian,
Your prayers are answered. Here is the islamic playboy video. That video certainly made me quickly satisfied... if you know what I mean. ROFLMAO.
#22 Posted by hamidm2 on October 29, 2006 5:59:22 pm
Re: # 19
aslam,
.... thanks - i am always a day late and a dollar short with my brilliant ideas !............. maybe we can get ms aisha azmi to pose for miss muharram ....
aslam,
.... thanks - i am always a day late and a dollar short with my brilliant ideas !............. maybe we can get ms aisha azmi to pose for miss muharram ....
#21 Posted by KaalChakra on October 29, 2006 4:37:25 pm
The last was the question Indonesians were asking themselves. So that should be taken as a quotation of sorts.
#20 Posted by KaalChakra on October 29, 2006 4:35:20 pm
They had introduced Playboy in Indonesia recently. Reportedly it had no nudity.
Isn`t publishing Playboy without nudes sin enough to land everybody associated with it in deepest, darkest hellfire?!
Isn`t publishing Playboy without nudes sin enough to land everybody associated with it in deepest, darkest hellfire?!
#19 Posted by aslam644 on October 29, 2006 3:40:34 pm
Re: # 18
i am surprised a well informed peron like your selve didn`t know, it`s already out in uk.
i am surprised a well informed peron like your selve didn`t know, it`s already out in uk.
#18 Posted by hamidm2 on October 29, 2006 1:56:37 pm
.......... i was wondering if there is a market for an islamic playboy - you know, women in hijab and niqab showing a little bit of leg here, a little bit of thigh there and a perky breast peaking out from beneath the abaya ......... i find the idea intriguing
#17 Posted by muqaddam on October 29, 2006 10:07:34 am
One doubts if this Aishah female acted on her own accord while going to teach children in a veil. Any sane teacher obviously would know that teaching with a veil on was the most absurd thing to do.
It is most probably the local Mullah and his cohorts found in her a willing tool and incited her to do this.
These acts are really painting Islam as a retrograde religion. Where are the moderate voices that will drown out the mad rantings of the self seeking Mullahs who are so blinded by their own interpretation of Islam that one day they will take it to destruction?
It is most probably the local Mullah and his cohorts found in her a willing tool and incited her to do this.
These acts are really painting Islam as a retrograde religion. Where are the moderate voices that will drown out the mad rantings of the self seeking Mullahs who are so blinded by their own interpretation of Islam that one day they will take it to destruction?
#16 Posted by zeemax on October 29, 2006 1:14:41 am
contd....#15.........
Re the shipping fleet, it was the greatest error of Muslims that they never formed a merchant shipping or a naval fleet. I wonder why that was so. Even Tariq Bin Ziad`s invasion of Spain was on borrowed vessels sent by the rebel Spanish. It is even more surprising in that they were the ones who invented the sextant for navigation but never used it.
If Muslims had a naval force, there would have been none ... zero... colonizations in either India, or North Africa.
Re the shipping fleet, it was the greatest error of Muslims that they never formed a merchant shipping or a naval fleet. I wonder why that was so. Even Tariq Bin Ziad`s invasion of Spain was on borrowed vessels sent by the rebel Spanish. It is even more surprising in that they were the ones who invented the sextant for navigation but never used it.
If Muslims had a naval force, there would have been none ... zero... colonizations in either India, or North Africa.
#15 Posted by zeemax on October 29, 2006 1:07:03 am
#14 by iqbal492
Iqbal, these are not the Muslims who want to settle in any European country and should follow the regulations and give up wearing Burqas like Aishah Azmi if they want to reside in that country. It is their country. They were born there.
Remember the first generation of immigrants never did that, but the 2nd generation does. Reason is that the first generation were economic immigrants, the 2nd generation are Brits, not immigrants. If Brits can have hair pins in their noses and cheeks with spiked hairdos and strut along Kings Road, and have decent jobs at the same time, so can the Burqas and Niqabs.
I saw the Aisha Azmi interview. She states no child had complained and she had been carrying out her duties perfectly with Niqab. So who did the Niqab scare? It wasn`t the children, it was the Islamophobic British establishment.
Besides, Britain is the last place on earth to talk about multi-culturalism when they had built their small island of a country into a global empire where the sun never set solely from colonies acquired with a shipping fleet with policies of strict cultural segregation from locals. Locals were `dogs` for them and still are. The first generation accepted that because it had no choice, the second one doesn`t. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they`re running helter-skelter to achieve non-confrontational multi-culturalism. They must never forget that they owe their very existence of today i.e. not being swallowed up by first France and later Germany, to the economic strength they had gained from the very places Aisha Azmi`s folks come from.
Britain owes a huge debt to everyone of origins of the Jewel of The Crown.
Iqbal, these are not the Muslims who want to settle in any European country and should follow the regulations and give up wearing Burqas like Aishah Azmi if they want to reside in that country. It is their country. They were born there.
Remember the first generation of immigrants never did that, but the 2nd generation does. Reason is that the first generation were economic immigrants, the 2nd generation are Brits, not immigrants. If Brits can have hair pins in their noses and cheeks with spiked hairdos and strut along Kings Road, and have decent jobs at the same time, so can the Burqas and Niqabs.
I saw the Aisha Azmi interview. She states no child had complained and she had been carrying out her duties perfectly with Niqab. So who did the Niqab scare? It wasn`t the children, it was the Islamophobic British establishment.
Besides, Britain is the last place on earth to talk about multi-culturalism when they had built their small island of a country into a global empire where the sun never set solely from colonies acquired with a shipping fleet with policies of strict cultural segregation from locals. Locals were `dogs` for them and still are. The first generation accepted that because it had no choice, the second one doesn`t. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they`re running helter-skelter to achieve non-confrontational multi-culturalism. They must never forget that they owe their very existence of today i.e. not being swallowed up by first France and later Germany, to the economic strength they had gained from the very places Aisha Azmi`s folks come from.
Britain owes a huge debt to everyone of origins of the Jewel of The Crown.
#14 Posted by iqbal492 on October 29, 2006 1:16:11 am
Dear Farouq Taj, Zeemax, Nasah
Look man, England is England and not Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, so those Muslims who want to settle in any European country should follow the regulations and prevailing in that country that is the law of the land. The same applies for U.S.A and Canada.
My advice is to those Muslim women who wear Burqas(Viel) like Aishah Azmi is that they should stop wearing Burqas if they want to reside in that country. It is as simple as that. In Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan even Non Mulsim women are compulsory forced to wear Burqas. There is no discount or concession. No body protests, why are Muslims are silent. Even the laws in Islamic countries are biased towards Non Muslims (viz, Hindus, Sikhs and Christians). For eg A MBBS Christian student from Lahore has filled petition in the Lahore High court, the petitioner alleges that Muslim who learn the Hafeez-E-Quran by heart are a given 20% more marks. The same cardinal principal doesn’t apply for Hindus, Christians and Sikhs for learning their religious books.
Iqbal Singh
I would like to challenge any Pakistani to correct me if I am wrong.
Look man, England is England and not Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, so those Muslims who want to settle in any European country should follow the regulations and prevailing in that country that is the law of the land. The same applies for U.S.A and Canada.
My advice is to those Muslim women who wear Burqas(Viel) like Aishah Azmi is that they should stop wearing Burqas if they want to reside in that country. It is as simple as that. In Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan even Non Mulsim women are compulsory forced to wear Burqas. There is no discount or concession. No body protests, why are Muslims are silent. Even the laws in Islamic countries are biased towards Non Muslims (viz, Hindus, Sikhs and Christians). For eg A MBBS Christian student from Lahore has filled petition in the Lahore High court, the petitioner alleges that Muslim who learn the Hafeez-E-Quran by heart are a given 20% more marks. The same cardinal principal doesn’t apply for Hindus, Christians and Sikhs for learning their religious books.
Iqbal Singh
I would like to challenge any Pakistani to correct me if I am wrong.
#13 Posted by mehulkamdar on October 28, 2006 10:02:23 pm
I would like to see the fanatics who condemn the British for firing this madwoman from duties that she was most ill suited to because of her chosen dress code try to tell Turkey, a Muslim country, to lift it`s restrictions on the veil and the fez. A country that was an Islamic superpower for centuries decided to do away with this stupidity but no, rather than take the Turks` civilised approach to religion, some people from the rest of the Muslim world chose to look at the barbaric Arabs of Saudi Arabia as an example. It is particularly sad that a woman from South Asia, a region of refinement and culture in contrast to the uncivilised Bedou culture of the Middle East chooses barbarism instead of refinement and culture. And, she has supporters to egg her on in her self imposed imbecilicity.
A superb article and a fine voice of reason - congratulations, Farouk Taj. Thank you for a very well written piece.
A superb article and a fine voice of reason - congratulations, Farouk Taj. Thank you for a very well written piece.
#11 Posted by VRV on October 28, 2006 6:38:35 am
Aishah Azmi`s pix on the net are limited to showing her as a niqab gaal. However the local press in London had produced some pix of Ms. Azmi who wore jeans. Her pelvis was seductive to men and her chest is attractive with visible protrusion.
I dont know if she was wearing niqab since Mr. Straw said abt it or b4 that. In any case she dressed in a way that cant be called as modest coz of her display of pelvic shape thru jeans and display of protruding mammalian glands. Therfore she`s not dressed modestly.
So much was said abt niqab. I dont like to add anymore here.
I dont know if she was wearing niqab since Mr. Straw said abt it or b4 that. In any case she dressed in a way that cant be called as modest coz of her display of pelvic shape thru jeans and display of protruding mammalian glands. Therfore she`s not dressed modestly.
So much was said abt niqab. I dont like to add anymore here.
#10 Posted by zeemax on October 28, 2006 5:02:11 am
#9 by jay
Jay ... much of modern science can be bought off the shelf. It`s not a big deal. Exactly which science are you talking about BTW?
Jay ... much of modern science can be bought off the shelf. It`s not a big deal. Exactly which science are you talking about BTW?
#9 Posted by jay on October 28, 2006 4:49:21 am
Here we go. People want to know why the pakistanis of england has turned out to be what they are. Well, they are jobless, they cannot mingle with others because of religion.
So they become bombers, so they where the hijab to let every one knwo that they are muslims.
This is pathetic, the muslim cilture and identity is in their dress. It is showing others that they are different.
Hallo, how about some lasting human values, how about some education. Has islam produced any scientist. Well how can it, when oits only nobel laurette has been condemned in the land of the pure.
Has nay muslim country produced anything worthy for other humans.
Looking fior the reasons of muslim alineation, pathetic, read the book. It is all there. Ostriches who should live in the saudi deserts should not allowed into the cities of the world.
So they become bombers, so they where the hijab to let every one knwo that they are muslims.
This is pathetic, the muslim cilture and identity is in their dress. It is showing others that they are different.
Hallo, how about some lasting human values, how about some education. Has islam produced any scientist. Well how can it, when oits only nobel laurette has been condemned in the land of the pure.
Has nay muslim country produced anything worthy for other humans.
Looking fior the reasons of muslim alineation, pathetic, read the book. It is all there. Ostriches who should live in the saudi deserts should not allowed into the cities of the world.
#8 Posted by zeemax on October 28, 2006 3:20:24 am
#5/7 by harimau
Wah ... wah ... Harimau saheb. It`s a bit much for even a self-proclaimed ``Equal Opportunity Abuser`` as your goodself!
You ask, ``Where are the Paki-bashing youth of Britain?``, the answer is they were having a great time till the Skinhead busting Pak-gangs emerged in response and after a few skinhead skulls were cracked in Bradford and Birmingham, your heroes are now all hiding underneath their mama`s skirts without a peep.
You say: ``...rquirements for a mahram to accompany her. I believe that requirement is stated explicitly in the Koran....``
And since when have you Sir become an expert on Qura`an? Kindly quote where it is said so. Ever heard of women fighters in combat in Muslim armies? Or even the nurses? Were they all with `Mehrams`? You guys are just strawmen ...
Wah ... wah ... Harimau saheb. It`s a bit much for even a self-proclaimed ``Equal Opportunity Abuser`` as your goodself!
You ask, ``Where are the Paki-bashing youth of Britain?``, the answer is they were having a great time till the Skinhead busting Pak-gangs emerged in response and after a few skinhead skulls were cracked in Bradford and Birmingham, your heroes are now all hiding underneath their mama`s skirts without a peep.
You say: ``...rquirements for a mahram to accompany her. I believe that requirement is stated explicitly in the Koran....``
And since when have you Sir become an expert on Qura`an? Kindly quote where it is said so. Ever heard of women fighters in combat in Muslim armies? Or even the nurses? Were they all with `Mehrams`? You guys are just strawmen ...
#7 Posted by harimau on October 28, 2006 12:46:00 am
Ref nasah #6
[what`s wrong with you harimau]
Aishah Aziz wants to selectively apply the Koran... in fact, most of you even say that people who claim that the Koran requires the burqa are wrong and that the Koran requires only modest attire for women.
But if Aishah insists on shocking the sensibilities of Western society by wearing the burqa in inappropriate places, I am asking why she doesn`t follow the rquirements for a mahram to accompany her. I believe that requirement is stated explicitly in the Koran.
As to suggestions of rape, hey, I am just pointing out further consequences of the strict application of Sharia law for Muslim women.
Tough noogins.
[what`s wrong with you harimau]
Aishah Aziz wants to selectively apply the Koran... in fact, most of you even say that people who claim that the Koran requires the burqa are wrong and that the Koran requires only modest attire for women.
But if Aishah insists on shocking the sensibilities of Western society by wearing the burqa in inappropriate places, I am asking why she doesn`t follow the rquirements for a mahram to accompany her. I believe that requirement is stated explicitly in the Koran.
As to suggestions of rape, hey, I am just pointing out further consequences of the strict application of Sharia law for Muslim women.
Tough noogins.
#6 Posted by nasah on October 27, 2006 7:37:49 pm
what`s wrong with you harimau -- your post is the crudest and the profanest I have ever read on the chowk -- there are times you are so lucid, reasonable and even show a glimse of good breeding and high Indian intellect -- and then there is a total melt down of your civility and your sense of propriety -- your post #5 is absolutely disgusting -- shame on you.
#5 Posted by harimau on October 27, 2006 3:19:41 pm
Does Aishah Azmi go to school with an accompanying mahram? If not, isn`t she violating Islamic law?
Where is the Taliban when you need them? The Taliban would be out there with stout sticks beating women who dared to step out of their homes without a mehram.
Man, the British government is stupid, not for allowing multiculturalism but for not taking it to the fullest extent.
Where are the Paki-bashing youth of Britain? Why aren`t they out in force raping Aishah Azmi and other veiled women? Aishah will have to bring in four Muslim males to testify to the act of penetration.... no DNA tests for you, beatch! And if she can`t find those four Muslim male witnesses, she needs to be stoned to death for adultery.
Where is the Taliban when you need them? The Taliban would be out there with stout sticks beating women who dared to step out of their homes without a mehram.
Man, the British government is stupid, not for allowing multiculturalism but for not taking it to the fullest extent.
Where are the Paki-bashing youth of Britain? Why aren`t they out in force raping Aishah Azmi and other veiled women? Aishah will have to bring in four Muslim males to testify to the act of penetration.... no DNA tests for you, beatch! And if she can`t find those four Muslim male witnesses, she needs to be stoned to death for adultery.
#4 Posted by nasah on October 27, 2006 1:46:45 pm
good to see an article from a normal British Muslim calling his own spade a spade -- there is afterall light at the end of dark Islamist tunnel....that stupid Aisha Azmi should be made to aplogize to those school kids for scaring the hell out of them in that Halloween outfit on a normal non Halloween day.
there is another meateahead in Australia called Hilaly calling non Hijabi women `uncovered meat` -- what a stupid asshole and he is an Imam of a masjid -- good that the mosque suspended him for 3 months for insulting Australian womanhood in such a crass language.
Well good to see that the taming of the Islamist shrew has begun....
there is another meateahead in Australia called Hilaly calling non Hijabi women `uncovered meat` -- what a stupid asshole and he is an Imam of a masjid -- good that the mosque suspended him for 3 months for insulting Australian womanhood in such a crass language.
Well good to see that the taming of the Islamist shrew has begun....
#3 Posted by krbhatti on October 27, 2006 11:17:21 am
Nice article, and to the point. The way it is handled by the Islamic Organizations is pathatic. In my opinion there are three points in this controversy.
First one is the question of personal choice. I am in favour of the personal freedom in this regard. If a women wants to veil herself, let it be her choice.
Second one is its link to Islam. Now that is where ignorance kicks in and poeple start to equate the veiling of face with requirements of Islam. There is no requirement in Islam that makes the women necessary to veil her face.
Third Point is the point of occupational requirement. Every sane person knows that teaching children in veil is hinderance, and the testimony of children proves it, on which the employer of the women in question took the decision to fire her. So, my opinion of freedom of personal choice in point one is subject to the occupational expediency. If her personal freedom is so dear to her, then please stay at home, because in veil children cannot understand you. Another example of personal choice vs. occupational requirement would be the question of drinking while flying. It is the matter of personal choice, whether a pilot drinks or not, but nobody wants to travel in a plane that is flown by a person who is drinking during flight. So, keep your personal choices out of the work area, if they hinders in proper discharge of duties.
I am amazed at the lack of sense and the level of ignorance with which so called Islamic organizations have made issue out of non issue. If they beleive so much in freedom of personal choices, then why women cannot still drive in the saudia, from where they are getting their money. Or on the other hand why they don`t press Mullahs of saudia to allow women in public who are wearing western clothing. Please do not be hypocrate and be a true muslim, as muslim can never be hypocrate.
First one is the question of personal choice. I am in favour of the personal freedom in this regard. If a women wants to veil herself, let it be her choice.
Second one is its link to Islam. Now that is where ignorance kicks in and poeple start to equate the veiling of face with requirements of Islam. There is no requirement in Islam that makes the women necessary to veil her face.
Third Point is the point of occupational requirement. Every sane person knows that teaching children in veil is hinderance, and the testimony of children proves it, on which the employer of the women in question took the decision to fire her. So, my opinion of freedom of personal choice in point one is subject to the occupational expediency. If her personal freedom is so dear to her, then please stay at home, because in veil children cannot understand you. Another example of personal choice vs. occupational requirement would be the question of drinking while flying. It is the matter of personal choice, whether a pilot drinks or not, but nobody wants to travel in a plane that is flown by a person who is drinking during flight. So, keep your personal choices out of the work area, if they hinders in proper discharge of duties.
I am amazed at the lack of sense and the level of ignorance with which so called Islamic organizations have made issue out of non issue. If they beleive so much in freedom of personal choices, then why women cannot still drive in the saudia, from where they are getting their money. Or on the other hand why they don`t press Mullahs of saudia to allow women in public who are wearing western clothing. Please do not be hypocrate and be a true muslim, as muslim can never be hypocrate.
#2 Posted by arjun2 on October 27, 2006 10:44:28 am
Following the Iraq war the ruling Labour government can no longer rely on the Muslim vote
So that`s their number 1 issue: Iraq? Not their being left behind in most social measures..education, poverty etc etc.
It is the extremist views of those who cover their faces that cannot be tolerated in a free liberal society. They put on the pretence of challenging our Western society but try and engage in a conversation that questions their core beliefs and they soon turn hostile.
well said...Bears repeating...It`s NOT bigotry to expect muslims to tolerate free speech without threats to ``behead people who insult islam``..
#1 Posted by zeemax on October 27, 2006 10:02:01 am
Dear Author,
You have identified the Aisha Azim phenomenon as follows:
She is one of a new generation of young veiled Muslim women who are the complete opposite of the expected stereotype of a meek, shy and submissive Muslim female who ventures out rarely. These women are arrogant, hostile and out to deliberately shock and provoke. Their behaviour is calculated to antagonise and draw some sort of a reaction from those around them. This is a group that has developed a pathological hatred for the very society in which they’ve been raised.
Any reasons why it has turned out to be so? And that too particularly in Britain? This sounds like the suffragettes. Shall appreciate your valuable comments as to the whys and the wherefores because it does indeed look like what you`ve described but have not ventured into an in-depth analysis.
You have identified the Aisha Azim phenomenon as follows:
She is one of a new generation of young veiled Muslim women who are the complete opposite of the expected stereotype of a meek, shy and submissive Muslim female who ventures out rarely. These women are arrogant, hostile and out to deliberately shock and provoke. Their behaviour is calculated to antagonise and draw some sort of a reaction from those around them. This is a group that has developed a pathological hatred for the very society in which they’ve been raised.
Any reasons why it has turned out to be so? And that too particularly in Britain? This sounds like the suffragettes. Shall appreciate your valuable comments as to the whys and the wherefores because it does indeed look like what you`ve described but have not ventured into an in-depth analysis.
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