Building Barriers in Britain
Farouq Taj October 27, 2006
#53 Posted by billdunc on February 8, 2007 11:30:33 am
Hi Farouq,
I live in Britain also and I was very heartened to read your article. Many normally tolerant people in the mainstream white british part of our society are becoming very fed up with some of the extremist Muslims and their behaviour. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it is unlikely that such people represent the views of average and equally tolerant Muslims. It is a pity that voices such as yours from the Muslim community are not heard more in our British media. But I suppose moderation and commonsense dont sell papers do they?
I live in Britain also and I was very heartened to read your article. Many normally tolerant people in the mainstream white british part of our society are becoming very fed up with some of the extremist Muslims and their behaviour. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it is unlikely that such people represent the views of average and equally tolerant Muslims. It is a pity that voices such as yours from the Muslim community are not heard more in our British media. But I suppose moderation and commonsense dont sell papers do they?
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#52 Posted by arjun2 on November 4, 2006 12:36:33 pm
China doesn`t have a problem with it`s muslims? Didn`t u`all read the article I posted about how the chicoms keep their muslims under their boots?
Muslims feel the long arm of Beijing
In Xinjiang, which is of strategic importance to China, Uighurs try to maintain their culture despite strict oversight.
By Mark Magnier
Times Staff Writer
October 23, 2006
HOTAN, CHINA — Mullah Masude, 63, removes his shoes and gingerly navigates an expanse of cheap carpeting in the Jaman mosque`s main worship area before climbing a set of rickety steps to the roof.
Powered by a good set of lungs and lots of practice, the cleric belts out the afternoon call to prayer. Despite his best efforts, the chant is all but drowned out by the din of a single-stroke tractor engine and a passing bus.
Beijing bars mullahs from using loudspeakers, one of dozens of rules critics say are designed to mute Islam`s voice in China, particularly among the Uighur minority here in the far-western region of Xinjiang, which the government considers a separatist threat.
Signs and banners at mosque entrances in Hotan, Kashgar and other western cities make it clear who is boss.
``Completely abide by the Communist Party`s religious policy,`` reads an oversized banner straddling the gate of Hotan`s Imam Asim tomb, half a mile over desert dunes from the nearest road. ``Actively lead religion toward a just socialist society.``
More than 2,000 miles to the east, Beijing seems a world away, which partly explains officials` deep-seated fear that the region`s more than 8 million Uighurs will unite to form an independent state.
Mutton and flat bread trump pork and rice as the cuisine of choice, blue eyes and light skin are common, and many people speak only a few words of Mandarin.
Although most Uighurs are proud of their history, distinct language and centuries-old culture, they tend to see a Uighur homeland as a distant dream, given Beijing`s tight grip and economic clout.
``I`m not in favor of it, nor do I think it`s possible,`` said Elham Adl, 22, a Uighur tour guide in Dushanzi, a town in northern Xinjiang. ``I don`t want to see Xinjiang become a second Iraq. And if Xinjiang became independent, we`d lose access to China`s big market.``
But Beijing isn`t taking any chances, critics say, and it continues to intimidate the clergy, weaken Uighur culture through assimilation policies and otherwise stifle dissent.
The strategy has been successful, largely putting an end to the bombings, protests and unrest of the 1990s, though some say China has only driven resentment underground.
``They put out the fire,`` said Dru C. Gladney, an anthropologist and president of Pomona College`s Pacific Basin Institute. ``But the embers are smoldering. And unless they address hearts and minds, it will flare again.``
The government`s iron grip underscores Xinjiang`s strategic importance. The region has huge reserves of oil, gas, gold and uranium. It is home to the nation`s Lop Nor nuclear testing facility.
With 17% of Chinese territory but just 1.5% of its people, Xinjiang is an important release valve for population pressures. It`s a buffer against rival Russia. And any loosening would set a precedent for pro-independence movements in Taiwan and Tibet.
``Xinjiang is very important to China`s security,`` said Raphael Israeli, a fellow at the Truman Research Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ``They will have to do what it takes when a rebellion becomes evident.``
In the meantime, Beijing is working to soften local hearts and minds to its position, albeit in a sometimes heavy-handed manner.
`Love the motherland`
Ayinoor, a Uighur civil servant in her early 20s, is required to attend ideology classes for two hours a day aimed at hammering home the glories of the Communist Party, the danger of separatism and the benefits of national unity. Like others interviewed, she declined to give her family name for fear of losing her job.
If lecturing doesn`t win her over, there`s music, including a version of the party`s recent ``Eight Virtues and Eight Shames`` campaign that she`s required to sing, with such lines as ``It`s most glorious to love the motherland, a great sin to harm her.`` There`s economic incentive: If she doesn`t do well on a weekly political thought quiz, her pay is docked.
``I`m only telling you this,`` she said in the shadow of the historic Id Kah mosque in Kashgar, near two police cars and an army truck and a sign that read, ``All ethnic groups warmly welcome the party`s religious policies.``
``At work I have to say, `I love everything Han Chinese` or I get into trouble,`` she said, referring to the majority ethnic group.
Uighur clerics had ignored the ban on government employees entering mosques. But religious authorities started threatening their jobs as well. Now they report on attendees, who risk losing their jobs or worse. More than 300 Uighur civil servants have been jailed in recent years for their beliefs, locals say, and some were beaten to death.
Government officials were not available for comment, and the figure could not be verified.
Beijing`s longer-term goal is to create a new generation of Mandarin-speaking Uighurs with fewer ties to Islam or traditional Uighur culture, critics say, including programs that send the brightest young Uighurs to Mandarin-only schools in other provinces.
``Chinese is very difficult, but it`s the language of the marketplace,`` said Shiaili, 14, a student in Urumqi. ``I`ve studied for two years. Sometimes I forget some of my Uighur.``
Government officials did not respond to written requests for an interview. But Chinese minority and ethnic affairs officials in the past have denied trying to dilute Uighur culture and say they`re raising living standards and spurring entrepreneurship, as seen, they say, by an economy that has grown forty-twofold since 1955.
But government officials also promise to remain vigilant. They blame separatist groups for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.
``In Xinjiang, the separatists, religious extremists and violent terrorists are all around us,`` Wang Lexiang, Xinjiang`s deputy chief of public security, said in August. ``In China, endangering national security is the No. 1 crime. We have to crack down on it severely.``
The Sept. 11 attacks gave Beijing a new argument, allowing it to tar pro-independence Uighurs as radical Muslims with ties to Al Qaeda, claims that are viewed with skepticism.
``China saw 9/11 as the best opportunity since 1949 to crack down on Uighur people,`` said Alim Seytoff, general secretary of the Washington-based Uighur American Assn., which advocates the creation of an independent state called East Turkistan through nonviolent means. ``China makes allegations that can`t be proven, but after 9/11 it`s very hard to champion your cause if you`re Muslim.``
Wary of the link between religion and politics, China prohibits anyone younger than 18 from entering a mosque or receiving a Muslim education.
``I don`t know if it`s right or wrong, but it`s the law,`` said Sulika, 43, a former soldier turned fruit seller, chomping down on a stew of sheep organs and intestine casings stuffed with rice.
Schools also require students to eat during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting and atonement. ``If they don`t eat, they get disciplined by the teachers,`` Sulika said.
Religious study for prospective clerics and others older than 18 must take place in heavily monitored government schools and after an extensive background check. At that age, many young Uighurs don`t bother, having been seduced by video games and modern distractions.
``By that time, most aren`t interested,`` said Ma Xueliang, a Muslim cleric at the Qinghai mosque in Urumqi.
If persuasion and distraction don`t work, there`s brute force. Xinjiang is riddled with informants, human rights activists say, amid claims that 1,000 Uighurs were executed and more than 10,000 imprisoned during a 1996-97 crackdown. Detentions have fallen off more recently, they say, because intimidation tactics are working.
``Control over Xinjiang society is very minute,`` said Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher with Human Rights Watch. ``It`s impressive and reminiscent of Soviet Union times.``
New generation of mullahs
After 1990, the authorities replaced many longtime mullahs with a new generation educated in Chinese patriotic programs, and began paying their salaries directly and requiring annual license renewals.
In many parts of Xinjiang, mullahs are required to clear their Friday sermons, limited to 30 minutes, with local religious affairs bureaus and are punished for deviating from the script. Those who resist Chinese policy, by arguing, for instance, against abortion or family planning policies on religious grounds, are fired or jailed.
``My neighbor, an imam, was arrested 12 years ago for saying something the government didn`t like,`` said one Uighur government worker, who asked not to be identified. ``He`s still in jail. Their message is clear: Keep your mouth shut.``
Muslims feel the long arm of Beijing
In Xinjiang, which is of strategic importance to China, Uighurs try to maintain their culture despite strict oversight.
By Mark Magnier
Times Staff Writer
October 23, 2006
HOTAN, CHINA — Mullah Masude, 63, removes his shoes and gingerly navigates an expanse of cheap carpeting in the Jaman mosque`s main worship area before climbing a set of rickety steps to the roof.
Powered by a good set of lungs and lots of practice, the cleric belts out the afternoon call to prayer. Despite his best efforts, the chant is all but drowned out by the din of a single-stroke tractor engine and a passing bus.
Beijing bars mullahs from using loudspeakers, one of dozens of rules critics say are designed to mute Islam`s voice in China, particularly among the Uighur minority here in the far-western region of Xinjiang, which the government considers a separatist threat.
Signs and banners at mosque entrances in Hotan, Kashgar and other western cities make it clear who is boss.
``Completely abide by the Communist Party`s religious policy,`` reads an oversized banner straddling the gate of Hotan`s Imam Asim tomb, half a mile over desert dunes from the nearest road. ``Actively lead religion toward a just socialist society.``
More than 2,000 miles to the east, Beijing seems a world away, which partly explains officials` deep-seated fear that the region`s more than 8 million Uighurs will unite to form an independent state.
Mutton and flat bread trump pork and rice as the cuisine of choice, blue eyes and light skin are common, and many people speak only a few words of Mandarin.
Although most Uighurs are proud of their history, distinct language and centuries-old culture, they tend to see a Uighur homeland as a distant dream, given Beijing`s tight grip and economic clout.
``I`m not in favor of it, nor do I think it`s possible,`` said Elham Adl, 22, a Uighur tour guide in Dushanzi, a town in northern Xinjiang. ``I don`t want to see Xinjiang become a second Iraq. And if Xinjiang became independent, we`d lose access to China`s big market.``
But Beijing isn`t taking any chances, critics say, and it continues to intimidate the clergy, weaken Uighur culture through assimilation policies and otherwise stifle dissent.
The strategy has been successful, largely putting an end to the bombings, protests and unrest of the 1990s, though some say China has only driven resentment underground.
``They put out the fire,`` said Dru C. Gladney, an anthropologist and president of Pomona College`s Pacific Basin Institute. ``But the embers are smoldering. And unless they address hearts and minds, it will flare again.``
The government`s iron grip underscores Xinjiang`s strategic importance. The region has huge reserves of oil, gas, gold and uranium. It is home to the nation`s Lop Nor nuclear testing facility.
With 17% of Chinese territory but just 1.5% of its people, Xinjiang is an important release valve for population pressures. It`s a buffer against rival Russia. And any loosening would set a precedent for pro-independence movements in Taiwan and Tibet.
``Xinjiang is very important to China`s security,`` said Raphael Israeli, a fellow at the Truman Research Institute at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ``They will have to do what it takes when a rebellion becomes evident.``
In the meantime, Beijing is working to soften local hearts and minds to its position, albeit in a sometimes heavy-handed manner.
`Love the motherland`
Ayinoor, a Uighur civil servant in her early 20s, is required to attend ideology classes for two hours a day aimed at hammering home the glories of the Communist Party, the danger of separatism and the benefits of national unity. Like others interviewed, she declined to give her family name for fear of losing her job.
If lecturing doesn`t win her over, there`s music, including a version of the party`s recent ``Eight Virtues and Eight Shames`` campaign that she`s required to sing, with such lines as ``It`s most glorious to love the motherland, a great sin to harm her.`` There`s economic incentive: If she doesn`t do well on a weekly political thought quiz, her pay is docked.
``I`m only telling you this,`` she said in the shadow of the historic Id Kah mosque in Kashgar, near two police cars and an army truck and a sign that read, ``All ethnic groups warmly welcome the party`s religious policies.``
``At work I have to say, `I love everything Han Chinese` or I get into trouble,`` she said, referring to the majority ethnic group.
Uighur clerics had ignored the ban on government employees entering mosques. But religious authorities started threatening their jobs as well. Now they report on attendees, who risk losing their jobs or worse. More than 300 Uighur civil servants have been jailed in recent years for their beliefs, locals say, and some were beaten to death.
Government officials were not available for comment, and the figure could not be verified.
Beijing`s longer-term goal is to create a new generation of Mandarin-speaking Uighurs with fewer ties to Islam or traditional Uighur culture, critics say, including programs that send the brightest young Uighurs to Mandarin-only schools in other provinces.
``Chinese is very difficult, but it`s the language of the marketplace,`` said Shiaili, 14, a student in Urumqi. ``I`ve studied for two years. Sometimes I forget some of my Uighur.``
Government officials did not respond to written requests for an interview. But Chinese minority and ethnic affairs officials in the past have denied trying to dilute Uighur culture and say they`re raising living standards and spurring entrepreneurship, as seen, they say, by an economy that has grown forty-twofold since 1955.
But government officials also promise to remain vigilant. They blame separatist groups for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.
``In Xinjiang, the separatists, religious extremists and violent terrorists are all around us,`` Wang Lexiang, Xinjiang`s deputy chief of public security, said in August. ``In China, endangering national security is the No. 1 crime. We have to crack down on it severely.``
The Sept. 11 attacks gave Beijing a new argument, allowing it to tar pro-independence Uighurs as radical Muslims with ties to Al Qaeda, claims that are viewed with skepticism.
``China saw 9/11 as the best opportunity since 1949 to crack down on Uighur people,`` said Alim Seytoff, general secretary of the Washington-based Uighur American Assn., which advocates the creation of an independent state called East Turkistan through nonviolent means. ``China makes allegations that can`t be proven, but after 9/11 it`s very hard to champion your cause if you`re Muslim.``
Wary of the link between religion and politics, China prohibits anyone younger than 18 from entering a mosque or receiving a Muslim education.
``I don`t know if it`s right or wrong, but it`s the law,`` said Sulika, 43, a former soldier turned fruit seller, chomping down on a stew of sheep organs and intestine casings stuffed with rice.
Schools also require students to eat during Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting and atonement. ``If they don`t eat, they get disciplined by the teachers,`` Sulika said.
Religious study for prospective clerics and others older than 18 must take place in heavily monitored government schools and after an extensive background check. At that age, many young Uighurs don`t bother, having been seduced by video games and modern distractions.
``By that time, most aren`t interested,`` said Ma Xueliang, a Muslim cleric at the Qinghai mosque in Urumqi.
If persuasion and distraction don`t work, there`s brute force. Xinjiang is riddled with informants, human rights activists say, amid claims that 1,000 Uighurs were executed and more than 10,000 imprisoned during a 1996-97 crackdown. Detentions have fallen off more recently, they say, because intimidation tactics are working.
``Control over Xinjiang society is very minute,`` said Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher with Human Rights Watch. ``It`s impressive and reminiscent of Soviet Union times.``
New generation of mullahs
After 1990, the authorities replaced many longtime mullahs with a new generation educated in Chinese patriotic programs, and began paying their salaries directly and requiring annual license renewals.
In many parts of Xinjiang, mullahs are required to clear their Friday sermons, limited to 30 minutes, with local religious affairs bureaus and are punished for deviating from the script. Those who resist Chinese policy, by arguing, for instance, against abortion or family planning policies on religious grounds, are fired or jailed.
``My neighbor, an imam, was arrested 12 years ago for saying something the government didn`t like,`` said one Uighur government worker, who asked not to be identified. ``He`s still in jail. Their message is clear: Keep your mouth shut.``
#49 Posted by zeemax on November 3, 2006 2:09:31 am
#47 by abu_safwaan
Well Abu, you must have noticed that Islamophobia is as rampant on chowk as anywhere else ... nothing new. And the funny part is that many muslims, particularly the ex-pat variety, are more Islamophobic than other religionists. This phenomenon needs to be studied, not fought. Believe me I`ve learnt this after a hell of a lot of fights.
For example, let`s say, the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?
Well Abu, you must have noticed that Islamophobia is as rampant on chowk as anywhere else ... nothing new. And the funny part is that many muslims, particularly the ex-pat variety, are more Islamophobic than other religionists. This phenomenon needs to be studied, not fought. Believe me I`ve learnt this after a hell of a lot of fights.
For example, let`s say, the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?
#51 Posted by teshah on November 3, 2006 6:01:28 pm
Re: # 49
zeemax
You say:
``the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?``
A good point indeed, but have a simple answer `Love begets love and hate begets hate`. The Arabs of the prophet`s time had little contact with the said nations and so no question of `Islamo or Zeno-phobias`. Jews and Christians who considered them to be true believer in the abrahamic or Judaic religion considered the prophet of Islam to be an impostor as the Muslims of today consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad an impostor. They all hate each other for obvious reasons of jealousy. As for the communist and Buddhist nations which did not believe even in any prophet or god, they have nothing to vie with these religions and hence no clash with them. Nevertheless, Kublai Khan, the great Mongol Emperor of China, did have a brush with Islam when there were only a few Muslims in China. It was reported to the Khan that there were some Chinese who believed in a new religion called Islam whose book called upon them to kill non-muslim kafirs. The Khan called for the leader of the muslims to verify the report. A Mulla was brought before him and here is the dialogue between them:
Khan; Is it right that you religious book calls upon you to kill kafirs?
Mulla: Yes, it is so.
Khan: Then why don`t you kill me?
Mulla; It is not our time. We will see to it when our time comes.
Khan, upon hearing this, got enraged like a ruthless Mongol and issued an order that all muslims in his realm be gathered and annihilated before their time comes to do the same to us in accordance with their teachings.
This caused great consternation among the muslims all over the world who had already tasted the ruthlessness of the Mongols. So some sensible muslims got together and went to seek audience with the khan to avoid the massacer of the muslims. They appeared before the Kahn and submitted that they did not consider the Mongols to be kafirs as they do believe in some super power (Mongols believed the sky `Aasman` to be the super power at the time).
Interestingly, these nations -Chinese, Koreans, etc. - do not believe in any super power (even America) now, even `aasman` - but they are the best friends of the Muslims, especially of the pakyones. The reason is not any sort of mania but sheer political interests at large.
zeemax
You say:
``the chinese, koreans, japanese, thais etc etc are not Islamophobic or veil-phobic at all. Why is that? Is it because they don`t feel threatened? If not, why not? They have huge Muslim populations as well and theirs are western societies too. Any ideas?``
A good point indeed, but have a simple answer `Love begets love and hate begets hate`. The Arabs of the prophet`s time had little contact with the said nations and so no question of `Islamo or Zeno-phobias`. Jews and Christians who considered them to be true believer in the abrahamic or Judaic religion considered the prophet of Islam to be an impostor as the Muslims of today consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad an impostor. They all hate each other for obvious reasons of jealousy. As for the communist and Buddhist nations which did not believe even in any prophet or god, they have nothing to vie with these religions and hence no clash with them. Nevertheless, Kublai Khan, the great Mongol Emperor of China, did have a brush with Islam when there were only a few Muslims in China. It was reported to the Khan that there were some Chinese who believed in a new religion called Islam whose book called upon them to kill non-muslim kafirs. The Khan called for the leader of the muslims to verify the report. A Mulla was brought before him and here is the dialogue between them:
Khan; Is it right that you religious book calls upon you to kill kafirs?
Mulla: Yes, it is so.
Khan: Then why don`t you kill me?
Mulla; It is not our time. We will see to it when our time comes.
Khan, upon hearing this, got enraged like a ruthless Mongol and issued an order that all muslims in his realm be gathered and annihilated before their time comes to do the same to us in accordance with their teachings.
This caused great consternation among the muslims all over the world who had already tasted the ruthlessness of the Mongols. So some sensible muslims got together and went to seek audience with the khan to avoid the massacer of the muslims. They appeared before the Kahn and submitted that they did not consider the Mongols to be kafirs as they do believe in some super power (Mongols believed the sky `Aasman` to be the super power at the time).
Interestingly, these nations -Chinese, Koreans, etc. - do not believe in any super power (even America) now, even `aasman` - but they are the best friends of the Muslims, especially of the pakyones. The reason is not any sort of mania but sheer political interests at large.
#50 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 3, 2006 7:07:07 am
Re: # 49
Zee Bhai,
My humble submission is that noone is threatened by veil. I mean how ridiculous does the statement sound, ``I am threatened by veil``, well if you r neurotic OK. I feel sorry for u but go see a doctor. We don`t formulate the norms and policies of our societies on the basis of minority`s mental problems. If infact britons or americans are threatened by veil, beard, muslims etc. then there is a democratic way to resolve those issues. GET THEM BANNED THRU DUE PROCESS. It`s really that simple. But they can`t cause the majority of these countries could care less about these stupid nuiances, they are worried about their healthcare, social security not to mention their sons and daughetrs getting blown up in pieces in IRAQ. Those are the real issues for the west.
As for the deranged expats (i m one myself hopefully not a deranged one but its up for discussion), majority of these people have always had low-self esteem for one reason or another. That`s no excuse for me to harp on them but it becomes my problem when they start acting as the mouth-piece for my religion just because they have a Islamic sounding name. See when i was a kid i knew that if i studied harder i would get just as good grades as irfan did, but i was more interested in playing cricket. Irfan however was a total nerd n to some extent i think enjoyed being around books. It wold have been OK by me if my father wouldn`t constantly shoved his grades in my face, so my utmost focus was to not only make sure that i get to play cricket but some how get irfan away from the books as well. It sounds malicious but thats human psychology for u. Noone is saying that veil is compulsory least of all women that are doing it in western countries. They are merely doing it because THEY think it`s a command of Allah SWT and they are obliging. I personally don`t think that it`s a requirement to hide your face. But if i try to some how make sure just on a whim mind you, that if I get in trouble infront of Allah SWT then everyone else should as well then it`s quite understandable from a human psychology point of view, however its not the right thing to do. It`s our own short comings that haunt us and thats why we become hostile.
Zee Bhai,
My humble submission is that noone is threatened by veil. I mean how ridiculous does the statement sound, ``I am threatened by veil``, well if you r neurotic OK. I feel sorry for u but go see a doctor. We don`t formulate the norms and policies of our societies on the basis of minority`s mental problems. If infact britons or americans are threatened by veil, beard, muslims etc. then there is a democratic way to resolve those issues. GET THEM BANNED THRU DUE PROCESS. It`s really that simple. But they can`t cause the majority of these countries could care less about these stupid nuiances, they are worried about their healthcare, social security not to mention their sons and daughetrs getting blown up in pieces in IRAQ. Those are the real issues for the west.
As for the deranged expats (i m one myself hopefully not a deranged one but its up for discussion), majority of these people have always had low-self esteem for one reason or another. That`s no excuse for me to harp on them but it becomes my problem when they start acting as the mouth-piece for my religion just because they have a Islamic sounding name. See when i was a kid i knew that if i studied harder i would get just as good grades as irfan did, but i was more interested in playing cricket. Irfan however was a total nerd n to some extent i think enjoyed being around books. It wold have been OK by me if my father wouldn`t constantly shoved his grades in my face, so my utmost focus was to not only make sure that i get to play cricket but some how get irfan away from the books as well. It sounds malicious but thats human psychology for u. Noone is saying that veil is compulsory least of all women that are doing it in western countries. They are merely doing it because THEY think it`s a command of Allah SWT and they are obliging. I personally don`t think that it`s a requirement to hide your face. But if i try to some how make sure just on a whim mind you, that if I get in trouble infront of Allah SWT then everyone else should as well then it`s quite understandable from a human psychology point of view, however its not the right thing to do. It`s our own short comings that haunt us and thats why we become hostile.
#48 Posted by KaalChakra on November 2, 2006 12:31:04 pm
abu sahib
Putting those with whom we disagree ``in place`` is hardly an effective strategy any more.
As # 38 makes clear, teshah still respects your religion far more than many other people do. And that is as it should be: respect for religions is not necessary if religions ultimately preach what we find unacceptable. You woulnd`t find monkey worshipping respectable, would you?
Putting those with whom we disagree ``in place`` is hardly an effective strategy any more.
As # 38 makes clear, teshah still respects your religion far more than many other people do. And that is as it should be: respect for religions is not necessary if religions ultimately preach what we find unacceptable. You woulnd`t find monkey worshipping respectable, would you?
#44 Posted by muqaddam on November 1, 2006 10:06:28 am
Re #41
The poem appended by you to your senseless outburst shows a creative side to your personality. Be kind enough to translate it into Urdu and post it here. You will win a friend on the Chowk
The poem appended by you to your senseless outburst shows a creative side to your personality. Be kind enough to translate it into Urdu and post it here. You will win a friend on the Chowk
#42 Posted by harish_hyd on November 1, 2006 1:22:51 am
#40 by zeemax
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
The only ones being kicked around these days are Pakis. Just look at the audacity with which the US whacked a Madarssah. Even puny Venezuela wouldn`t tolerate such an attack.
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
The only ones being kicked around these days are Pakis. Just look at the audacity with which the US whacked a Madarssah. Even puny Venezuela wouldn`t tolerate such an attack.
#40 Posted by zeemax on November 1, 2006 12:59:07 am
#37 by abu_safwaan
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
Well said. But it is kind of fun kicking around these heathens.
#39 Posted by muqaddam on October 31, 2006 11:55:26 pm
Re #34
No need to get hysterical. What you have to realise that you (now called Pakistanis) and us are the same people, who speak the same language, eat the same food, also squat the same way by railway lines and also beg with our katoras ( over the last sixty years you have become past masters, kneeling and begging from rich arabs, who have thrown you crumbs in exchange of some tight Punjabi pusy), since all Pakistanis are originally urine guzzling Hindu Indians, like us you also have sumptuous levels of urine content in your metabolism. Just accept the fact that you are just Indians what turned Paki, and you will find the everelusive peace of mind.
No need to get hysterical. What you have to realise that you (now called Pakistanis) and us are the same people, who speak the same language, eat the same food, also squat the same way by railway lines and also beg with our katoras ( over the last sixty years you have become past masters, kneeling and begging from rich arabs, who have thrown you crumbs in exchange of some tight Punjabi pusy), since all Pakistanis are originally urine guzzling Hindu Indians, like us you also have sumptuous levels of urine content in your metabolism. Just accept the fact that you are just Indians what turned Paki, and you will find the everelusive peace of mind.
#41 Posted by IamNadia on November 1, 2006 1:18:23 am
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#38 Posted by teshah on October 31, 2006 6:07:50 pm
Well done dear Taj. But you left one aspect of the issue - bad manners. A woman in niqab is declaring that all men are evil and that she is too chaste to be seen by them while she is free to see and recognize them. According to Quran it is quite otherwise as evidenced in the story of Yusaf and Zulekha. Again, a Quranic advice to Hazat Suleman says ``Go after a lion and snake but dont go after a woman (120/3, Ehyaulaloom)``. As regards Hadees, there is a saying of the prophet to the effect that the woman is a snare (jaal) of Satan (Ditto). The British Societry seems to have been caught in that satanic snare and only muslims like you dear Taj can tell them how to get out of it as they are not aware of the guiles of the muslim women with a mindset developed in a Talibani society.
#45 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 1, 2006 10:42:27 am
Re: # 38
Shah sahib,
Its your neurosis and paranoia that forces you to believe that niqabi women are declaring that all men are evil. She is maybe saying that about you if you gawk at women but she is definitely not saying that about everyone. All she is doing is following her religion according to her understanding, that understanding can be debated but her intentions shouldn’t be doubted, least of all by you who is ashamed and confused to be a muslim. For the love of GOD don’t quote quran, you obviously posses very minimal intellect and doesn’t quite understand the concept of quotations in context. Shah sahib in a democratic country she has every right to cover herself up just as your mother, daughters & wives have to bare it all. In this age you should be preparing to meet your lord rather than advocating the cause of being able to stare down niqabi women. By all means parade the women in your household in any attire of your choosing and let others have the same choice, isn’t that what democracy is all about? When you liberals force your agendas you become just as repulsive and suffocating as Taliban.
Shah sahib,
Its your neurosis and paranoia that forces you to believe that niqabi women are declaring that all men are evil. She is maybe saying that about you if you gawk at women but she is definitely not saying that about everyone. All she is doing is following her religion according to her understanding, that understanding can be debated but her intentions shouldn’t be doubted, least of all by you who is ashamed and confused to be a muslim. For the love of GOD don’t quote quran, you obviously posses very minimal intellect and doesn’t quite understand the concept of quotations in context. Shah sahib in a democratic country she has every right to cover herself up just as your mother, daughters & wives have to bare it all. In this age you should be preparing to meet your lord rather than advocating the cause of being able to stare down niqabi women. By all means parade the women in your household in any attire of your choosing and let others have the same choice, isn’t that what democracy is all about? When you liberals force your agendas you become just as repulsive and suffocating as Taliban.
#46 Posted by teshah on November 1, 2006 5:47:16 pm
Re: # 45
Mind your manners dear. Excuse me, you have become obnoxiously personal, not fit for any dialogue or discussion on this forum.
Mind your manners dear. Excuse me, you have become obnoxiously personal, not fit for any dialogue or discussion on this forum.
#47 Posted by abu_safwaan on November 2, 2006 11:48:33 am
Re: # 46
Oh hurt are we? You should have remembered mannerism when you were spewing sarcasm towards the holliest of books for about 1.5 billion people. I am not looking for discussion, anything you have to say i have already heard from asma jehangir and you are far less eloquent than her my mere purpose for interaction was to put u in ur place. Gray hair doesnt give u a free ride to take a swing at my religion. If you dish it out be prepared to take it as a man as well.
Oh hurt are we? You should have remembered mannerism when you were spewing sarcasm towards the holliest of books for about 1.5 billion people. I am not looking for discussion, anything you have to say i have already heard from asma jehangir and you are far less eloquent than her my mere purpose for interaction was to put u in ur place. Gray hair doesnt give u a free ride to take a swing at my religion. If you dish it out be prepared to take it as a man as well.
#37 Posted by abu_safwaan on October 31, 2006 1:24:10 pm
RE:36 & 35
You guys are taking this too seriously. I have always maintained that you can not have any kind of meaningful & serious discussion with people that seem to believe that cow-piss is somehow rainwater from heaven and as for buprinder or whatever why would you get excited about something said by a person who seems to believe that longer and unkept pubes is the only desire of there ``GOD``.
We are suppose to defend Islam infront of morons who are bowing down to statues made of clay? Shouldn`t they rather worship the guy who is making the statues? Should we not be concerned about women being burnt alive with their dead husabnds in this day and age rather than worrying about what muslim women are wearing? Should we not be concerned that majority of women are forced in to abortion in India as soon as they find out that the baby is a girl?
End of the world must be near that Hindus and Sikhs are questioning the wisdom of Islam. I mean isnt it ironic that the followers of religions that force people to to burn their daughters and sisters alive would come roaring for women-right? We are suppose to explain God`s plan to a people whose only religious distinction is never shaven pubes, is this twilight zone
?
You guys are taking this too seriously. I have always maintained that you can not have any kind of meaningful & serious discussion with people that seem to believe that cow-piss is somehow rainwater from heaven and as for buprinder or whatever why would you get excited about something said by a person who seems to believe that longer and unkept pubes is the only desire of there ``GOD``.
We are suppose to defend Islam infront of morons who are bowing down to statues made of clay? Shouldn`t they rather worship the guy who is making the statues? Should we not be concerned about women being burnt alive with their dead husabnds in this day and age rather than worrying about what muslim women are wearing? Should we not be concerned that majority of women are forced in to abortion in India as soon as they find out that the baby is a girl?
End of the world must be near that Hindus and Sikhs are questioning the wisdom of Islam. I mean isnt it ironic that the followers of religions that force people to to burn their daughters and sisters alive would come roaring for women-right? We are suppose to explain God`s plan to a people whose only religious distinction is never shaven pubes, is this twilight zone
?
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