Meeting the Pakistani-Swiss

#101 SR- nice description of that miserable island whence modern civilization came. what gives?

[...social class and education in one`s country of origin do make such a big difference in cultural assimilation...]

Not always... from what I have seen - indians don`t seem to have ``cultural assimilation`` problems no matter what class and education they come from... I mean - the gujjus tend to be less educated but business-oriented... south indians tend to be professionals.... the punjabis[sikhs and hinuds] tend to be evenly distributed on business-owners and professionals... but the ``cultural assimilation`` level is usually the same...

In fact, I have seen the very educated telugus who are less assimiliated then not-so-educated punjabi store owners....

Re: # 110
MAYBE WHAT YOU OBSERVED IS THE TRUE REFLECTION OF THE PAINDOO MENTALITY. IN UK IT`S NOT JUST MIRPURIS ANYMORE.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PAKISTANIS FROM SAHIWAL AND FAISALABAD IN UK AS WELL IN FACT MOST OF PAKISTANIS IN SCOTLAND AND MANCHESTER ARE FROM FAISALABAD AREA.

wasiq #107 I think you make an excellent point. My brother has lived in europe for a long time, and he and his wife always comment on the cultural and educational differences between Pakistani immigrants to the US (whom they meet when they are visiting us here) and those in europe.

I have seen mirpurias boarding planes in London fight like animals with one another on the plane (once a mirpuria woman - decked with jewellry like a true paindoo returning home for vilayat - actually got up and started yelling obscenities at two murpuria men - wearing three piece suits like a true paindoo man returning home from vilayat - for presumably touching her or something. It took half the PIA staff to get the woman to stop wailing about ``tohaday ghar maaNwaaN behnaan nahiN aaN`` and the paindoo ``vilayat return`` men to stop yelling in ``Oye you shut up!!``. So it is no surprise that these paindoos dont find peace even in UK, and go around blowing up buses and claiming to be aggrieved and so forth.

So, not only is a jahil unable to integrate in western societies as well as an educated person - he is unable to get along with fellow jahils as well.

wasiq. i think you`ve hit the nail on the proverbial head: those who come from more educated backgrounds aren`t so fixed in their world-views and hence can adapt to the host culture relatively easily. in fact, i think there is a direct correlation between level of education in one`s home country and how much one adapts to one`s adopted country--with exceptions of course (which prove the rule)*. Thus my friends from UCL who were from Pakistan`s uber-rich class (the top 0.1% or something) were already pretty much Westernised before they got here: Aitchison, KGS, etc. graduates, parents work for multinationals or are in the higher echelons of government, a few years in a top British Uni and then off to work in the City. These people have no problems mixing being already `more Catholic than the Pope`! At the other end of the spectrum you have the illiterate villagers from the areas around Mirpur and Jhelum etc. who have either come as bogus asylum seekers or illegally by some other route--or, this is most of them--by marrying their poor British cousins and gotten their nationality. They do the most menial jobs and hate their adopted country yet wont go back because life is still better here (1 pound = 100 rupees!) and they can then bring in other members of their family once legally settled. In between are the small number of middle class pakistanis who come by other legal methos eg. to work in a skilled job or as students. they can go to either of these extremes.

the same pattern is seen with the bengalis too. those from villages in sylhet are not very well integrated. those professionals from dhakka are v much so. both groups despise each other! one considers the others `fucking barbarians` and the others respond by saying `you lot have forgotten your roots and sold your soul to the devil you fucking coconuts.`

the children of all 3 groups cannot and do not want to ever go back and settle in their home countries.

Re: # 100

well i suppose his foppish hair, oxonian accent and slight poncey-ness do conform to the stereotypes people have of the British gentleman. He is quite good looking in a very gay sort of way--slightly androgynous. Maybe he has a huge penis--perhaps THAT is why Jemima left Imran for him. I don`t know!

Ask that black hooker who gave him a bj...

I notice that welfare dependency and the comparative fates of the Indian and Pakistani diasporas are popular lines of commentary. Not to be forgotten, however, is the fascinating way in which the native Swiss have molded this Pakistani community culturally. The Swiss-Pakistanis, for instance, all start their spicy-South Asian meals with a salad (an anti-pasta) -- in the local style. They all wear suits and are obsessively fastidious like the other Swiss. They are also much more comfortable in Italian than English.

It would have been interesting to compare the jobs and incomes of the local Indian population with that of the Pakistanis I met, but a neutral comparison may not be possible -- their seem to be hardly any Indian immigrants here, but quite a few Tamils (whom I haven`t met). The Indians that do live here are generally software engineers with ``B-Source`` a formerly Swiss company thats been bought out by a larger Indian concern -- I met one young couple who were working there -- having been `seconded` from Infosys.

One thread seems to hold in my look at the potential for immigrants to assimilate. The better educated and more socially privileged the immigrant was in the home country, the easier it will be for them to blend in, find work, and live successfully in the adopted country. When comparing Pakistanis living in Europe -- often living in some ethnic ghetto -- to the Pakistanis in the U.S. who are often able to buy property and are comparatively prosperous -- the contrast seems to originate in the difference in their social origins and the educational level they achieve prior to their arrival in North America or Europe. The U.S. may absorb its immigrants more effectively because it receives a different type of migrant -- what I don`t understand is precisely why social class and education in one`s country of origin do make such a big difference in cultural assimilation. Any ideas?

aslam644: .........ireland is no doubt the biggest european success story.......the poor man of europe is now the wealthiest.......one could argue that this is due to IT.......there is no country in the world that has had its fortunes affected by IT as much as ireland..........

.......ireland is the second largest exporter of packaged software, in the world, after the usa.........quite an achievement for a country of only 4 million people or so........it employs only around 30,000 people in IT (that is significantly less than any single large indian IT company).........yet it exports over 20 billion dollars (???) of software products and services.........these figures vary depending on what one reads..........but they are huge anyways.......

......basically a country the population size of lahore, exporting more software than all of pakistan`s exports put together..........canada has a large irish immigratnt population........recruiters from ireland are now trying to get the irish IT professionals to move back to ireland............

.........speaking of moving back........in pakistan, i was introduced to some second generation born and bred british pakistanis who had come to work in pakistan`s telecom companies........pakistan is going through an enormous telecom and banking boom.......there are now over 30 million cell phone connections in pakistan.........must be higher than most european countries.........one cell phone company added more cell phone connections in one year than all the landlines added in pakistan in 50 years!!........unfortunately this boom is a purchasing boom..........i am assuming the true beneficieres are nokia, ericsson, motorola etc........pakistan, itself is not adding anything locally to the products.........

#104 having just returned from michigan, and after listening to some very, very afraid ford execs - i think i understand what this growing anxiety is all about.

and, in the same visit, after watching a ``mudbowl`` played over the homecoming weekend in near freezing rain in knee deep water by a group of mud-covered, shivering fraternity students - i think people there have the guts needed to fix their problems. They just need to get really and truly afraid first.

Re: # 101

SR,

......... living in michigan i can empathize with your ``growing anxiety of the approaching misery`` .......

romair mian,

........ i know a number of fairly well-off pakis who desposited a couple of hundred thoousand dollars in the bank, bought apartments in toronto, sent their kids to canadian universities, got their canadian citizenship and then moved back to pakistan .......... for them canada is a safe haven just in case they need it one day .........

Re: # 39 by Naqshbandi on October 28, 2006 11:21am PT

Dear Mr. Coconut:

You are not alone in your feelings about recently arriving JOPs (just of the planes) from Pakistan. I have met some of them that have come with a passionate distrust of this country. I assume some of them were brought as part of human trafficking and all they want to do is earn lots of money (in their meagre definition) and send it back to Pakistan, where most of their family is still living. These people have no love for the new land and for contributing to this country. They are modern day gypsies, and they must be identified as a despicable lot. These people do not give any value in terms of image to otherwise honest and hardworking professionals from Pakistan. Unfortunately for most Pakistani muslims these people have inundated the local mosques, and they promote their hate filled ideology in those unsuspecting settings.

The only option for enlightened professionals from Pakistan is to marginalize these people effectively. This can be done and the sooner the better.

Respectfully submitted,

SR#101: following is a trend that is occuring amongst pakistanis:

....get a canadian citizenship...........move to dubai/qatar etc......become a non-resident canadian, thereby not having to pay any taxes, while keeping your citizenship.......get a nice job in dubai........get the same salary you were getting in canada, with no tax..........live in one of the new luxury apartments that uae is building left and right........fly off to pakistan on the weekends........dubai to karachi being closer than islamabad to karachi.........fly off to europe whenever you feel like it..........and your employer will give you free tickets to canada, multiple times a year........

Re: # 99 hamidm {``...it is not some place an american could live without suffocating to death in tiny hotel rooms...``}

This is painfully true. Even after almost three years we miss the extra square footage the three-car garage and the two acre backyard that ended on the Cahaba River. Our abode here (UK) still feels like a doll-house. All of this I don`t mind but it is the wet, windy darkness that gets my goat. This will be the last winter we spend on this dark, misty island. The romance with mud and manure was over quickly and I chastised myself for having had those crackpot notions in the first place. Quite often I have to answer to my eight year old why we can`t have a house like the last one in Alabama. The wife, on the other hand, to her lasting credit, only suffers in silence, probably feeling secretly vindicated and marking her time before she says those dreaded four words: I-told-you-so. (We`ve quit the farm living and are closer to town now. We`re back to buying supermarket food, ordered on-line and home-delivered.) From November (which begins in two days) to March I am simply miserable. Then April and May bring cautious optimism. June, July and August are simply wonderful. But then September and October bring the growing anxiety of the approaching misery. Then the dreadful misery begins all over again. I can fully understand why Julius Caeasr came to this island twice and both times he decided to quit and go back. It is possible that we`ll be stateless refugees once again. Maybe this time I`ll take romair`s advice and move to the Frozen North. The cold does not bother me. Nor does the wind and rain. It`s the darkness... combined with those things that kills one`s spirit. On second thoughts maybe we should check out Thailand...? Australia...? New Zealand...?

Re: # 100 {``...hugh grant ......what do women see in him ?...``}

I suppose Imran Khan has wondered about that as well... you are in good company.

...SR

Re: # 96

naqsh,

.......... only hugh grant ...... i have been dragged to see every one of his stupid movies ......... what do women see in him ?

aslam and naqshbandi,

........... i will grant you that there are parts of england that are quaint, but it is not some place an american could live without suffocating to death in tiny hotel rooms or starving to death because they couldn`t find their fvourite cereal ...... you won`t believe this, but every time i go to germany a german collegue, who lived in the us for a couple of years, asks me to bring a couple of large boxes of wheat kellog`s original grahams with calcium (not with honey, fiber, nuts, apple, french vanilla or cinnamon - just calcium !) .........personally i could easily live off the beer and bratwurst, but a kid could starve to death in that country ! .........

#97

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-finaid.html

Beginning with the class admitted this week, parents in families with incomes of less than $60,000 will no longer be expected to contribute to the cost of their children attending Harvard.

....

Two-thirds of Harvard students receive financial aid, and the average grant award for next year is expected to be more than $33,000, or 70 percent of the total cost of attendance.