Meeting the Pakistani-Swiss

Hmmm .. one Pak is a particle physicist teaching in Lugano ... another is going there for consulting .. and it`s just this board. So what`re we hearing about this bung-langoorians (isn`t that the new name for that slum?) about being better educated? Or is it the `taalim + tarbiat` part missing in them?

Hello Wasiq Sahib,

Interesting article, I think many of us (Pakistanis) living in europe come across fellow countrymen in all unique ways and make all sort of experiences.

I might be travelling to Lugano for a consulting assignment and was wondering i we could meet.

Regards, Jawad
jawadwasiq@yahoo.com

Re: # 137

Tahmed - I am sorry I could not relate to your weird humor. I was in DC this past weekend for a family committment and I did pay attention to the weather since I drove. Besides that, I have been on a travel engagement in Providence, RI for the past few weeks. Despite the long working hours and afterhour team gatherings, I do pay attention to the changing colors and natural beauty. Autumn is simply beautiful here in the northeast. And SR`s complaints about the miserable weather in his surroundings are completely legal ``jai`z``!

Re: # 141
tahmed
there isn`t free college education in uk anymore, fees are around £1000 per year for uk citizens and alot more for foreign citizens, there are government loans available plus there are plenty of jobs for students around £5 to£6 an hour. many other help available from individual universities.

Aslam: you mean they have free college education in UK? in the US college costs $40k per year (private or the better public colleges), and I think about $15k in the less expensive colleges. how much is university education in UK?

Re: # 135 aslam {``...what i can`t stand is the racism, that`s why i`m thinking of moving to US next year...``}

I keep hearing this racism complaint from several fellow desie`s and also on liberal media, but I must admit that I have HARDLY EVER encountered any overt racism personally, i.e., on a one-on-one basic, either in UK or in the US. This is over the last 27 years while I`ve lived in Anglo-Saxon majority countries. I`m sure there must be such things as systemic racism and the so-called glass-ceilings, that everyone speaks of, but I have been fortunate enough to have been spared most of it. And mind you, I mostly lived in the deep South that has a reputation for racism. I`ve encountered more racial tension in NY than I have in Alabama, if anything. So your proposed move to the US comes next year. I`ll only say this: don`t burn your bridges. You might think back and see that all which glitters is not gold. Good luck... trust in Allah, but don`t forget to tie down your camel.

...SR

Re: # 138

thousands of Indians are flocking every year to UK for work ,apart from the millions who are already working and living there.... I am sure there is some racism but it can`t be that bad....

Do you sport a big beard and demand 5-time prayer time in workplace?...

Re: # 136
Tahmed
On the whole Britain has been very kind to me, I shall never forget my English language teacher till the day I die, I came to uk without speaking a word of English, she had me, speaking, reading, writing English within 6 months, sometimes she’d spent half her dinner time with me. ( ms Goodwin where ever you are i still love you).

I had free education right up to university level, but I feel when it comes to careers and business there is some prejudice, and most of uk government independent studies have confirmed this, so i just trade on ebay to make a living.

#173 ZahraJ: Dont you think he deserves to have his leg pulled? :-) I mean, what would you think of someone who came to Pakistan and could talk of nothing other than the miserable weather??

#135 Aslam: I am just curious - in what way is this racism you refer to expressed in UK? (The brits I have met in the US have invariably been very friendly people (with one minor exception who was simply a weirdo with everyone, as can be expected in any group), as well as the brits i remember having worked or chatted with while in UK, Africa and of course Pakistan. Some were downright great - like this british co-worker whom I had barely met in a remote African country and who (upon my mentioning some chest pains) went immediately lent me his car and driver and had me taken to the british embassy which maintained its own medical clinic that also happened to be the only place in town with a ekg machine (it turned out i merely had some acidity due to the stress of travelling). This brit had no reason to do this, and the english staff in the clinic were also very caring. I had earlier mentioned these chest pains to the African staff in the hotel I was staying at, and all I received in return was a visit by an African doctor who claimed he could tell if I was having a heart problem simply by feeling my pulse and taking my temperature and charging me for it (the brits checked me out for free).

So excuse me if I seem to be defending the brits - but that has been my experience and I see no reason to follow the ``politically correct`` path of accusing the brits of racism and africans of being victims of racism when in fact my experience has been the opposite.

Having said this - I realize that you may have had a different experience based on which you say the brits are racist and would like to hear about that too.

Re: # 127
SR
thanks for reply
i`ve got used to weather it doesn`t bother me,even though i live in the north south isn`t so bad i believe they grow tea there now. what i can`t stand is the racism, that`s why i`m thinking of moving to US next year.

p.s best of luck where ever you decide to settle.

Re: # 127
SR
thanks for reply
i`ve got used to weather it doesn`t bother me,even though i live in the north south isn`t so bad i believe they grow tea there now. what i can`t stand is the racism, that`s why i`m thinking of moving to US next year.

p.s best of luck where ever you decide to settle.

[They discussed the khutbas that had been given in Northern Italy -- one Imam there had encouraged Muslims to have more children -- this would lead to power and importance in a demographically challenged society. ]

Yes. THIS is the cancer that non-Muslims need to wake up to, before it is too late, if they value their children and grandchildren. This is the same strategy that is now playing out in West Bengal, Assam and Tripura.

These people are like mindless ants working to some pattern etched into their brain by the mafia-esque cult, and reinforced by their ``religious`` leaders. Because there is an overall direction to their actions. This is why Europe should NOT let Turkey into the EU.

Although it still might be too late. The cancer has entered the body. And it`s growing every day.

Re: # 129

TAhmed: Why are you bent upon pulling his leg? The guy has been nice enough to explain his life`s choices to every Tom, Dick and Harry on Chowk. Now, he is being cross examined for his life`s decisions. You guys are so weird and ajeeb. Ironically, your ajeeb-ness is not weather related :)

SR - I have visited UK a few times and I truly detest the weather and the prevalent melancholy. I can relate to your weather-related concerns. Despite that, their music and musicians rock :)!

#129 U r on a roll!

#128 SR u r right, those were my words & ur 2nd para captures what Ive been thinking too.

so, you left the US because you saw it turning into a fascist state; UK is a ``miserable island``; and your name for Canada is the ``frozen north``. and the thought of returning to india seems to have never crossed your mind.

seems to me you are either too good for this planet - or else you carry your misery along with your passport whereever you go. :-)

Re: # 122 DrDr {``...how did these miserable souls end up giving us what we know 2 b the western civ? ...``}

I have not said anything bad about the British people or the British systems. My gripe with this place is principally on account of the weather. My secondary complaint is about the small size of things like parking spaces, streets, houses etc. I`m also not terribly happy paying British prices for cheap Chinese made goods, but I can live with that. It was actually you who used the words ``miserable island``... I only said I was miserable...(on account of the weather, of course)...

So I wouldn`t call them ``miserable souls``... The British are a very hardy and stoic people and perhaps its this miserable weather that has been instrumental in building their national character. If it was 70 degrees and sunshine all year round what could possibly have motivated the Elizabethian englishmen to cross the seven seas and build an empire? Nothing. Because in the summer this is the most beautiful and charming place there can be. Before moving to UK I`d probably visited this place at least fifty or sixty times over the previous twenty years. Five or six of those visits were also in the winter, but when you visit a place for a week or two you don`t realise what living their, day in and day out, means in terms of having to endure the darkness, fog, wind and drissel...

I don`t think it is fair to the French, German, Dutch and Italian people that you give sole credit for developing ``western civilization`` to the Brits. Industrial revolution may have begun a bit early here but the others weren`t too far behind. What you call ``western civilization`` I`d prefer to better describe as ``modern industrialised society``... it is a more accurate description.

...SR

Re: # 124 aslam {``...some time back you wrote on chowk that you came to live in UK, because you didn`t agree with US foreign policy, now you are saying you came because of your mother. ...``}

Perhaps my post was not very explicit. Leaving the USSA was the basic decision. Not just because of its imperialistic foreign policies, that in itself wasn`t all of it. Paying taxes to support injustice was a moral choice I did not have to continue to do. Perhaps if I was stuck in a profession where departing the US soil would have meant financial suicide, I might not have had the moral courage to take the step. There was also a personal and selfish aspect. I saw the US slowly turning into a fascist police state and an immoral, materialistic, over commercialised and violent place where I didn`t want my children to grow up. Gun culture with school violence was another one of my paranoia as a parent. Whether my perception was misguided or not is another matter, but that is what I felt and so I acted according to my conviction.

But then the question was, where do we move to? The most reasonable, easy, least traumatic choice was Canada. But we didn`t move to Canada as logic would have dictated. Since we were going to take a fresh start, family considerations trumped logistic considerations and we moved to the UK, where everything is half the size at twice the price. It was not a rational choice, but an emotional one. My mother was the factor in the equation that tilted the balance in the favor of UK as opposed to The Frozen North (my nick-name for Canada). That is what I was saying.

Now that my mother is gone, there is no moral imperative for us to remain in the UK, because the weather is so incompatible with my well being that I am living a life of hardship. My little daughter and I both have respiratory problems that get worse in the winter here. I admit, that one can hardly blame the British for their bad weather and I do not feel that this place is going to the dogs as fast as is the US in political and social terms. (Though economic future wise it is worse off than the US.) Now I am looking to see what choices we have. I am also faced with an awkward situation at home because my wife wasn`t exactly too enthusiastic about moving to England. She has been an angel about it and has never once thrown it in my face, but the hidden smile behind her lips says it all, every time I complain about the UK. She seems content here, but I am not. So I end up looking like a fool. ...

...SR

DrDr SahibSahib: sorry if it sounds unduly harsh...i think it is appropriate though. :-)

i.e., in light of SRs new-found snobbishness towards UK, as developed through living in the US. i spent a few days holiday in england a couple of times and found it to be a wonderful country - great history, friendly good-natured people, nice parks, great public transport. and all this man has to say is talk about how this ``miserable island``.

Re: # 117
i suppose it`s because of popularity of indian food, anyway what`s the big deal i know of pakistani in manchester with a chinese restuarant and a pakistani with a italian as well.

#114 by SR on October 30, 2006 2:51pm PT
sr
some time back you wrote on chowk that you came to live in UK, because you didn`t agree with US foreign policy, now you are saying you came because of your mother.

i know on this chowk there are all sorts of avatars around, but there should be some coherency and credibility in one`s views or do you change them with the british weather.

#115 tahmed, my quotable sir, that was harsh!

#114 SR, thanks 4 sharing alho I wasnt asking 4 ur personal reasons.
Im asking a bigger question - how did these miserable souls end up giving us what we know 2 b the western civ?

#120 no problem sir. so i guess we are in agreement on this question.

Re: # 119
sorry I had was not aware of the general thrust/development of the srguments here.....
my oversight!

dot: I think you misunderstood. The story I related had nothing to do with money or birth or education. These could have been all members of the Royal Qureish Khandaan to which so many ``muslims`` belong, and/or owners of medium or big businesses and/or PhDs in nuclear physics.

The story had to do with living in peace and mutual respect with others. And the incident I related demonstrated that not only are these people unable to live in peace with the british population in UK (as demonstrated with their bus-blowing last year, and with their stupid political bs on behalf of ``arab grievances``) but also unable to live in peace with one another (as demonstrated in that incident).

What you refer to is boorish behavior. What I referred to was being able to live in peace and mutual respect. So, while no doubt the two often go together, they are in essence different things.

As for boorish behavior - I consider that to show a lack of consideration for others. You seem to think it is OK if the man is economically ``successful``. I beg to differ.

As for class - some of the lowest class people I have met go around in expensive cars, own millions of dollars worth of property. And some of the highest class people I have met drive inexpensive cars and live on salaries. Class has nothing to do with money or birth or education.

Naqsh, TAhmed32, SR etal

are you all not just a bit too obssessed with class and education here? The equation you are using is

class=money+education+birth

Upto a point this might be true. However, I am increasingly seeing that this equation is being violated here in the U.K. I recently came across a NHS Cheif Executive - a total Paindoo accent, gold rimmed glasses a tond, bald head (but greasy !) etc and not very polished (by our desi westernised standards). When you see him you think my god this man will start scratching his balls and tummy. Totally rustic and also undereducated compared to the rest of us. But he is able to hold onto his job done well in life (and could be in the honors list (for whatever that is worth). The more I came to know him I realised he had a first class mind , and had a great class in his thinking and attitude to life.

There are more like this these days. Okay there will always be a few who will fortify the stereotypes.

OTOH I have seen serious City Types (the ones Naqsh???? mentions) who have no class are uncooth in their behaviour and have more racism in their blood stream than their colleagues. You can see this everyday in our working lives.

Ultimately it is the thought behind the actions which counts.

The lady and the man screaming is essentially the same, unfortunately they have not lost the habit of shouting at the top of their voices to be heard (most desi women have to shout to be heard in most families), and desi men are the most inarticulate bunch of bozos you will ever meet (hey stereotypes but I have that liberty ;-) ).

Re: # 81
Dear Aslam

Why did the Sialkoti Guy opened a Indian restaurant in Ireland and not a ``Pakistani one”. Please let me know.

Iqbal Singh (chandigarh)

#111 Aslam: thanks for the confirmation regarding the ``Paindoo Syndrome`` (or PS for short). And indeed, they can be from anywhere, and perhaps ``paindoos`` is a more appropriate term to use than mirpuria.

And the problem is - because of these losers, western countries have become less open to immigrants from Pakistan (and other third world countries in general) than would have been the case if they had demonstrated some self-respect and regard for the country that gave them the opportunity to escape their miserable conditions in Pakistan.

#114 Thank your stars that you are not in the stinking cesspool your parents grew up in in India. ``miserable island`` ka bacha!! ha! ha!

Re: # 113 DrDr {``...that miserable island ... what gives? ...``}

What gives is that the principle moral justification I had to be in the UK was that my aging mother lived here. Having the grand children only a couple of hours` drive away made it possible for her to see them on a regular basis. This was not possible while we were across the Atlantic though we made at leat two or three trips a year. But, sadly, she has passed away as of last spring and now we have nothing compelling (except inertia) keeping us on this dark, dreary, drissley, misty island. Had it not been for family considerations (brother, sister and first cousins live in London) we`d most likely have moved to The Frozen North when we decided to leave the United Soviet States of America.

...SR

#101 SR- nice description of that miserable island whence modern civilization came. what gives?

[...social class and education in one`s country of origin do make such a big difference in cultural assimilation...]

Not always... from what I have seen - indians don`t seem to have ``cultural assimilation`` problems no matter what class and education they come from... I mean - the gujjus tend to be less educated but business-oriented... south indians tend to be professionals.... the punjabis[sikhs and hinuds] tend to be evenly distributed on business-owners and professionals... but the ``cultural assimilation`` level is usually the same...

In fact, I have seen the very educated telugus who are less assimiliated then not-so-educated punjabi store owners....

Re: # 110
MAYBE WHAT YOU OBSERVED IS THE TRUE REFLECTION OF THE PAINDOO MENTALITY. IN UK IT`S NOT JUST MIRPURIS ANYMORE.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PAKISTANIS FROM SAHIWAL AND FAISALABAD IN UK AS WELL IN FACT MOST OF PAKISTANIS IN SCOTLAND AND MANCHESTER ARE FROM FAISALABAD AREA.

wasiq #107 I think you make an excellent point. My brother has lived in europe for a long time, and he and his wife always comment on the cultural and educational differences between Pakistani immigrants to the US (whom they meet when they are visiting us here) and those in europe.

I have seen mirpurias boarding planes in London fight like animals with one another on the plane (once a mirpuria woman - decked with jewellry like a true paindoo returning home for vilayat - actually got up and started yelling obscenities at two murpuria men - wearing three piece suits like a true paindoo man returning home from vilayat - for presumably touching her or something. It took half the PIA staff to get the woman to stop wailing about ``tohaday ghar maaNwaaN behnaan nahiN aaN`` and the paindoo ``vilayat return`` men to stop yelling in ``Oye you shut up!!``. So it is no surprise that these paindoos dont find peace even in UK, and go around blowing up buses and claiming to be aggrieved and so forth.

So, not only is a jahil unable to integrate in western societies as well as an educated person - he is unable to get along with fellow jahils as well.

wasiq. i think you`ve hit the nail on the proverbial head: those who come from more educated backgrounds aren`t so fixed in their world-views and hence can adapt to the host culture relatively easily. in fact, i think there is a direct correlation between level of education in one`s home country and how much one adapts to one`s adopted country--with exceptions of course (which prove the rule)*. Thus my friends from UCL who were from Pakistan`s uber-rich class (the top 0.1% or something) were already pretty much Westernised before they got here: Aitchison, KGS, etc. graduates, parents work for multinationals or are in the higher echelons of government, a few years in a top British Uni and then off to work in the City. These people have no problems mixing being already `more Catholic than the Pope`! At the other end of the spectrum you have the illiterate villagers from the areas around Mirpur and Jhelum etc. who have either come as bogus asylum seekers or illegally by some other route--or, this is most of them--by marrying their poor British cousins and gotten their nationality. They do the most menial jobs and hate their adopted country yet wont go back because life is still better here (1 pound = 100 rupees!) and they can then bring in other members of their family once legally settled. In between are the small number of middle class pakistanis who come by other legal methos eg. to work in a skilled job or as students. they can go to either of these extremes.

the same pattern is seen with the bengalis too. those from villages in sylhet are not very well integrated. those professionals from dhakka are v much so. both groups despise each other! one considers the others `fucking barbarians` and the others respond by saying `you lot have forgotten your roots and sold your soul to the devil you fucking coconuts.`

the children of all 3 groups cannot and do not want to ever go back and settle in their home countries.

Re: # 100

well i suppose his foppish hair, oxonian accent and slight poncey-ness do conform to the stereotypes people have of the British gentleman. He is quite good looking in a very gay sort of way--slightly androgynous. Maybe he has a huge penis--perhaps THAT is why Jemima left Imran for him. I don`t know!

Ask that black hooker who gave him a bj...

I notice that welfare dependency and the comparative fates of the Indian and Pakistani diasporas are popular lines of commentary. Not to be forgotten, however, is the fascinating way in which the native Swiss have molded this Pakistani community culturally. The Swiss-Pakistanis, for instance, all start their spicy-South Asian meals with a salad (an anti-pasta) -- in the local style. They all wear suits and are obsessively fastidious like the other Swiss. They are also much more comfortable in Italian than English.

It would have been interesting to compare the jobs and incomes of the local Indian population with that of the Pakistanis I met, but a neutral comparison may not be possible -- their seem to be hardly any Indian immigrants here, but quite a few Tamils (whom I haven`t met). The Indians that do live here are generally software engineers with ``B-Source`` a formerly Swiss company thats been bought out by a larger Indian concern -- I met one young couple who were working there -- having been `seconded` from Infosys.

One thread seems to hold in my look at the potential for immigrants to assimilate. The better educated and more socially privileged the immigrant was in the home country, the easier it will be for them to blend in, find work, and live successfully in the adopted country. When comparing Pakistanis living in Europe -- often living in some ethnic ghetto -- to the Pakistanis in the U.S. who are often able to buy property and are comparatively prosperous -- the contrast seems to originate in the difference in their social origins and the educational level they achieve prior to their arrival in North America or Europe. The U.S. may absorb its immigrants more effectively because it receives a different type of migrant -- what I don`t understand is precisely why social class and education in one`s country of origin do make such a big difference in cultural assimilation. Any ideas?

aslam644: .........ireland is no doubt the biggest european success story.......the poor man of europe is now the wealthiest.......one could argue that this is due to IT.......there is no country in the world that has had its fortunes affected by IT as much as ireland..........

.......ireland is the second largest exporter of packaged software, in the world, after the usa.........quite an achievement for a country of only 4 million people or so........it employs only around 30,000 people in IT (that is significantly less than any single large indian IT company).........yet it exports over 20 billion dollars (???) of software products and services.........these figures vary depending on what one reads..........but they are huge anyways.......

......basically a country the population size of lahore, exporting more software than all of pakistan`s exports put together..........canada has a large irish immigratnt population........recruiters from ireland are now trying to get the irish IT professionals to move back to ireland............

.........speaking of moving back........in pakistan, i was introduced to some second generation born and bred british pakistanis who had come to work in pakistan`s telecom companies........pakistan is going through an enormous telecom and banking boom.......there are now over 30 million cell phone connections in pakistan.........must be higher than most european countries.........one cell phone company added more cell phone connections in one year than all the landlines added in pakistan in 50 years!!........unfortunately this boom is a purchasing boom..........i am assuming the true beneficieres are nokia, ericsson, motorola etc........pakistan, itself is not adding anything locally to the products.........

#104 having just returned from michigan, and after listening to some very, very afraid ford execs - i think i understand what this growing anxiety is all about.

and, in the same visit, after watching a ``mudbowl`` played over the homecoming weekend in near freezing rain in knee deep water by a group of mud-covered, shivering fraternity students - i think people there have the guts needed to fix their problems. They just need to get really and truly afraid first.

Re: # 101

SR,

......... living in michigan i can empathize with your ``growing anxiety of the approaching misery`` .......

romair mian,

........ i know a number of fairly well-off pakis who desposited a couple of hundred thoousand dollars in the bank, bought apartments in toronto, sent their kids to canadian universities, got their canadian citizenship and then moved back to pakistan .......... for them canada is a safe haven just in case they need it one day .........

Re: # 39 by Naqshbandi on October 28, 2006 11:21am PT

Dear Mr. Coconut:

You are not alone in your feelings about recently arriving JOPs (just of the planes) from Pakistan. I have met some of them that have come with a passionate distrust of this country. I assume some of them were brought as part of human trafficking and all they want to do is earn lots of money (in their meagre definition) and send it back to Pakistan, where most of their family is still living. These people have no love for the new land and for contributing to this country. They are modern day gypsies, and they must be identified as a despicable lot. These people do not give any value in terms of image to otherwise honest and hardworking professionals from Pakistan. Unfortunately for most Pakistani muslims these people have inundated the local mosques, and they promote their hate filled ideology in those unsuspecting settings.

The only option for enlightened professionals from Pakistan is to marginalize these people effectively. This can be done and the sooner the better.

Respectfully submitted,

SR#101: following is a trend that is occuring amongst pakistanis:

....get a canadian citizenship...........move to dubai/qatar etc......become a non-resident canadian, thereby not having to pay any taxes, while keeping your citizenship.......get a nice job in dubai........get the same salary you were getting in canada, with no tax..........live in one of the new luxury apartments that uae is building left and right........fly off to pakistan on the weekends........dubai to karachi being closer than islamabad to karachi.........fly off to europe whenever you feel like it..........and your employer will give you free tickets to canada, multiple times a year........

Re: # 99 hamidm {``...it is not some place an american could live without suffocating to death in tiny hotel rooms...``}

This is painfully true. Even after almost three years we miss the extra square footage the three-car garage and the two acre backyard that ended on the Cahaba River. Our abode here (UK) still feels like a doll-house. All of this I don`t mind but it is the wet, windy darkness that gets my goat. This will be the last winter we spend on this dark, misty island. The romance with mud and manure was over quickly and I chastised myself for having had those crackpot notions in the first place. Quite often I have to answer to my eight year old why we can`t have a house like the last one in Alabama. The wife, on the other hand, to her lasting credit, only suffers in silence, probably feeling secretly vindicated and marking her time before she says those dreaded four words: I-told-you-so. (We`ve quit the farm living and are closer to town now. We`re back to buying supermarket food, ordered on-line and home-delivered.) From November (which begins in two days) to March I am simply miserable. Then April and May bring cautious optimism. June, July and August are simply wonderful. But then September and October bring the growing anxiety of the approaching misery. Then the dreadful misery begins all over again. I can fully understand why Julius Caeasr came to this island twice and both times he decided to quit and go back. It is possible that we`ll be stateless refugees once again. Maybe this time I`ll take romair`s advice and move to the Frozen North. The cold does not bother me. Nor does the wind and rain. It`s the darkness... combined with those things that kills one`s spirit. On second thoughts maybe we should check out Thailand...? Australia...? New Zealand...?

Re: # 100 {``...hugh grant ......what do women see in him ?...``}

I suppose Imran Khan has wondered about that as well... you are in good company.

...SR

Re: # 96

naqsh,

.......... only hugh grant ...... i have been dragged to see every one of his stupid movies ......... what do women see in him ?

aslam and naqshbandi,

........... i will grant you that there are parts of england that are quaint, but it is not some place an american could live without suffocating to death in tiny hotel rooms or starving to death because they couldn`t find their fvourite cereal ...... you won`t believe this, but every time i go to germany a german collegue, who lived in the us for a couple of years, asks me to bring a couple of large boxes of wheat kellog`s original grahams with calcium (not with honey, fiber, nuts, apple, french vanilla or cinnamon - just calcium !) .........personally i could easily live off the beer and bratwurst, but a kid could starve to death in that country ! .........

#97

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-finaid.html

Beginning with the class admitted this week, parents in families with incomes of less than $60,000 will no longer be expected to contribute to the cost of their children attending Harvard.

....

Two-thirds of Harvard students receive financial aid, and the average grant award for next year is expected to be more than $33,000, or 70 percent of the total cost of attendance.

Re Naqshbandi,
``although america`s top universities are the best in the world, it should have a more equitable way of funding higher education so that even poor people can go to the Ivy League institutions....``

You have mentioned this a couple of times now. As far as I know all Ivy League universities have need-blind admission policies. Generous financial aid is provided to all admitted students who need it. I don`t know of any one who,once admitted to an Ivy league university, declined to enroll for financial reasons.

ps, is it true US girls love British men because of their accents?

hamidm--that was hilarious! but it said more about the americans than it does about england!

it reminds me of when i was an undergrad at UCL. i overheard a couple of american girls in an english supermarket (i think sainsburys) and they couldn`t find a certain american brand of cereal so they said, `jee man, this is SUCH a third world country!` if it hadn`t been so absurd i could have told them to go fcuk themselves and go back to the USA but i was too busy laughing--plus we are not so crude!

:D

ps next time your kids want to see culture--come to oxford. i will show you around myself.

Re: # 3 SR {``...Wasiq... welcome back. It is really good to see your name re-materialize on Chowk after all these years. ...``}

Wasiq...

Please forgive my misunderstanding.. or rather mistaken identity. I must be blind. Initially I thought I saw the author`s name as Wasiq Bokhari... you are Wasiq Khan. Sorry about that. I addressed that first remark to Bokhari, thus the reference to astrophysics. My mistake.

...SR

Re: # 91
there you go with your streotypical view of blighty, an english man in london you must be joking it`s full of foriegners.

Re: # 89

i believe it`s called shalimar, this guy used to live near me and had a small grocery store, then 6, 7 years a go shifted to dublin and he`s doing really well.

perfect teeth

.......... a couple of years ago i decided it was time to introduce the kids to the `high culture` of europe, so i decided to take them to see the queen and learn how to drink tea out of fine bone china ...........

.......... but as soon as we landed at heathrow my older daughter exclaimed, ``phew! it stinks`` - the smell of cigarette smoke combined with the stench of dirty socks hung over the terminal and at eight in the morning dishevelled englishmen in rumpled suits huddled over their pint of beer puffing marlboros in their designated smoking areas right in the middle of the terminal ........... as we made our way out of the airport my little one, who was an observant five, remarked, ``how come everyone looks so dirty and why do they all have bad teeth`` ...... bad teeth ! .... that can`t be right - it is a civilized country, for god`s sake!

........ but she was right - over the next few days we came up with a little game: the first one to spot an englishman with regular teeth or a englishman who had taken a shower in the morning would get a big english coin of unknown value ........... needless to say, nobody got rich - every time we saw a person with good orthodontia or personal hygiene it turned out to be an american tourist ........

......... and then there was the hotel room - to hear the kids you would have thought they had been brought to the gulag ....... `` is this a room - why, my closet is bigger !...... how come the shower only trickles ...... and why don`t they give us enough ketchup with our fries .. why do they call them chips ..?!...... the bed is soooooo hard .......... you are so cheap ....... this is not a real marriott - it is a cheap english knockoff .........oh wow, there is big ben - again ! ....... can we go home ...... look at that set of teeth !........... and on and on and on ..........``

........... next year we went back to disney world and the kids gave mickey a big hug - he doesn`t smell ..........

canada doesnt share a border with Mexico

Aslam #81

Whats the name of this Indian restaurant in dublin? Is it in Dublin 4?
I am going to be there in a couple of weeks. Would appreiciate the info.

Thanks

correction: i am not intending to offend anyone.

bulleya, number 79.

excellent post. i agree. a society should be judged by how it treats those at the bottom not the
top. even in 3rd world countries, the top few percent have v good standards of living, education, etc.!

**

about norway. yes, the scandinavian model is the envy of even the rest of the EU. imho, they
are the most just and therefore the most `islamic` countries in the world.

of course, i could move there but jobs are quite far and few between --since they have their own pool of educated people to pick from. iceland is even more of a success story than norway!

the biggest negatives about the US are its lack of social security (which is a safety net for members of any society), unfair insurance based health care system (imho, healthcare should be available for all citizens free at the time of use regardless of ability to pay), and although america`s top universities are the best in the world, it should have a more equitable way of funding higher education so that even poor people can go to the Ivy League institutions; of course, usa`s appalling violent crime rates (25, 000 (!!!) murders per year!!) --due to the gun culture--are another huge negative.

the above reasons are why, i think, excluding the rich, the poor and middle classes of the EU would rather stay here than go to th USA. The other main drawback is the USA has no high culture (nor does Canada either for that matter--but it has so much else going for it that...)

these are just my opinions. you might think i am an arrogant european snob but i am not intended to offend any americans on here.

a smoothly moving moving story with a great punchline......

Re: # 59

Aslam,

If u are not readingt the dailies I can ignore ur barb........It was during Diwali fete Dave said this. I am not cooking up anything here. I am just quoting what he said abt Indians in a positive way that they are well educated, well integrated and hard working etc....on top of it fewer criminals among them.

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Ref#36
[My ancestral village is Bhaun, Zilla Chakwal...though during partition time it was tehsil Chakwal and Zilla Jhelum, ]

Dear Stuka

It is out of context but I must tell you this.

If you know the punjabi dialect spoken in Bhaun then try to understabd this

``Khotay an bhain dey``

Re: # 80
there is another country ireland, out of no where it`s it`s there at the top in terms of gdp per person. irish for centuries used to migrate to us, as the irish say we build america now we run it.

i know of a sialkoti guy he went to dublin and opened an `indian` restuarant he`s millionaire now, talk about the luck of the irish.

...........an interesting country that was being discussed quite a bit, during my trip to europe, is norway.........for seven years, canada was ranked the highest on the hdi index of un.........now it has basically been replaced by norway.........

............norway has very large oil deposits, though it is not a member of opec.......it is still the third largest exporter of oil in the world, after saudi arabia and russia.....apparently, it has even more gigantic coal deposits, which are untapped........in fact, according to some research, norways coal deposits of its seabed could supply the whole world for centuries!...........

however, norway only has a population of 4.5 million.........about the size of lahore(?)......so what does a country that exports so much oil and has such a high level of education, yet such a tiny population do with its oil revenues.........the answer is it sets up the world`s largest pension fund.........

apparently, norway is stashing up its oil money and investing it into a pension fund for future generations.........it is now a $200 billion dollar pension fund.......the fund is getting so huge, that perhaps a stage may be reached where every norwegian could live off it and its interest...........would norwegians, at that point, ever need to work?

..........now that is a concept i believe in.........a country`s whole population getting a free ride........maybe its time to mvoe to norway..........

hamidm2#.....``......... and inspite of romair`s gushing praise of the socialist republic of canada, there is no way i`d move there .......... he is the only professional i know who has moved from the us to canada - i know many who have moved in the opposite direction .........``

........to some extent you are correct........though not completely........i just got a call from Google, a few weeks ago, to move back to my old abode in silicon valley.......however, i am not going..........if however they offer me a job they have advertised for dubai, i will go.........

........very few professionals move from usa to canada........however, a whole group of senior professionals from canada move to the usa.........the number is so high in IT that i rarely see any competent canadian IT executives........Canada has the lowest level of competence in senior IT positions i have ever seen......the only competent ones are indians, pakistanis etc........all canadian borns seem to have moved to usa.......as have many doctors etc....

however, a society`s strength, in my opinion, is not recognized by how well its competent, intelligent and empowered are doing.....in that category there is no comparison to the usa..........but in my opinion, a society`s strength is decided by how well its weak, disenfranchised and incompetent are doing..........

in this category, canada ranks quite a bit higher than the usa......one can feel it......i have seen no real poverty here......no poor ghettos........everyone has access to the harvards of canada..........everyone has free health care, with or without jobs...........a very good social security setup........

based on this, if canada were to open its borders, i think a lot of poor americans would migrate to canada.........though hardly any rich one would........on the other hand, if usa would open its borders completely, a lot of rich canadians would migrate, while hardly any poor canadians would............

no doubt, usa is a great country to live in...........but i am becoming more convinced it is no the best.........like you, i used to consider it the best, when my horizons were limited only to the usa and pakistan.............

i cannot imagine the kind of situation one saw in new orleans, ever occuring in canada.......nor can i ever imagine seeing the kind of inner city violence one sees in usa, occuring in canada................

Wasiq sahib,

What I liked about reading this how your narrative flows, there is little authorial/narrative judgement until the end, but clearly what you describe for some of the Pakistani-Swiss in Ticino is very distressing indeed, especially the danger of intergenerational welfare dependency. Just the brief details that you give, in terms of the women for example, or something that one of the men said, say so much. Thank you for sharing this with us.

I hope your time at the liberal arts college goes well.

--ana

Re: # 66

SR,

..... healthcare is the only area in which the us lags behind the rest of the developed countries - i wouldn`t change much else ........ the only other thing i might change is social security - i would advocate its privatization with people managing their own ira type accounts if it weren`t for the fact that there are a lot of irresponsible fools out there ........... sometimes you have to be your idiot brother`s keeper

......... and inspite of romair`s gushing praise of the socialist republic of canada, there is no way i`d move there .......... he is the only professional i know who has moved from the us to canada - i know many who have moved in the opposite direction ......... every day hundreds of people commute from windsor to detroit to work (mainly nurses and engineers) but i have never heard of an american working in windsor ......... and this inspite of the fact that detroit`s economy is the worst in the country .........

#71

btw, here are the criteria for the THES survey:

Peer
review
score (40%)

Recruiter
review
(10%)

Int`l
faculty
score (5%)

Int`l
students
score (5%)

Faculty /
student
score (20%)

Citations /
faculty
score (20%)

there are several blots in america, but you are focussing on the wrong ones. High school science, math is a bigger issue than university education.

Anybody who has graded and TA`ed knows that a lot of people enter university in US with very poor preparation.

#70
sorry I forgot Oxford and Cambridge, but anyway just 4.

touche!

bongdong, i`m not being arrogant, just pointing out what to us appear as blots on the face of the US which has many great things going for it to.

ah, but those are rankings for RESEARCH. In undergrad education our Unis are the best ;-)

*wink wink*

#61

you know what, I deal with enough arrogant brits at work to put up with another one on the net.

why dont you just look around to see what UT-Austin is all about. A ranking by your own Times Educational Supplement of the top universities of the world places it at 26, outranked by only 2 UK universities: LSE and Imperial College.

#67
The best measure of comprehensive human development is the UN-HDI(Human Development Index)

From the 2005 report UN-HDI ranks:

Country HDI (2003)
1 Norway 0.963
2 Iceland 0.956
3 Australia 0.955
4 Luxembourg 0.949
5 Canada 0.949
6 Sweden 0.949
7 Switzerland 0.947
8 Ireland 0.946
9 Belgium 0.945
10 United States 0.944
11 Japan 0.943
12 Netherlands 0.943
13 Finland 0.941
14 Denmark 0.941
15 United Kingdom 0.939
16 France 0.938
17 Austria 0.936
18 Italy 0.934
19 New Zealand 0.933
20 Germany 0.930

Though I would think that a difference of scores between 0.944 an 0.939 would not be statistically significant (i.e. may not pass a hypothesis test at 90% confidence)

wasiq,

that was a lovely article--very well written. I had never imagined there`d be pakistanis in switzerland also! naive, i know! how many are there there? must be a tiny percentage.

on all the major indicators which matter most to Joe Schmoe, healthcare, education, social security, safety -- the UK and Western Europe in general trump the US.

Re: # 57 hamidm {``.............. it is shameful that the us, the richest country in the world, does not have a universal healthcae system that covers everyone ......... i know a number of honest hardworking people who work 60-80 hours a week but still cannot afford health insurance for their families ............ actually welfare mommas who spends the morning at the nail salon and the afternoon at the welfare office gets better health care than someone who is self-employed and makes fifty thousand a year [let`s make it 120 K] and therefore does not qualify for medicaid ........ it is a crying shame ! ...``}

Wow Hamid shaib... so you are not a complete & shameless neocon cronie after all. That`s just haathi kay daant... you know, kha-nay kay aur, dekhanay kay aur ?

cheers

...SR

This article might be of interest to some:


The National Health
We were aware that the World Health Organization, in a 2000 survey, ranked the U.S. healthcare system 37th-best in the world, despite the fact that America spends vastly more on medical care per capita than any other country. We naturally assumed, however, that the 46 million citizens who lack health insurance were dragging down the national average, and that top-flight care would always be available to those Americans who could afford to buy it.

A new study throws that assumption into question. Based on a number of indicators, the poorest people in Great Britain (#18 in the WHO survey) are just as healthy as the richest in America:

Middle-aged English people are “much healthier” than their American counterparts, even though the US spends far more on medical care than the UK, according to a large international study published on Tuesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Americans have significantly higher rates of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, lung disease and cancer than English people in the 55 to 64 age group . . . .

The researchers who were funded by several US and UK government agencies, set out to look at the social and economic factors affecting health but shifted emphasis when large differences emerged between the two countries. The study looked both at the way people reported their own health and – to guard against any bias from self-reporting – at objective biological markers of disease from blood tests. Altogether there were about 15,000 participants.

Samples in both countries were limited to whites and excluded recent immigrants, so as to control for racial and ethnic factors . . . .

As expected, people with higher socio-economic status, as measured by their income and education levels, tended to enjoy better health. But because the national differences were so great, those at the top of the education and income scale in the US suffered diabetes and heart disease at a similar rate to those at the bottom of the scale in England . . . .

Different health systems may also be part of the story. The researchers note that the US spends $5,274 per head on medical care while the UK spends $2,164, adjusted for purchasing power. But Britain’s National Health Service provides publicly funded medicine for everyone, while Americans under the age of 65 have to rely on private insurance.

Prof Marmot suggested that, while the healthcare provided by the British state health service was not superior to the private US system, it provided important psychological reassurance.

As the researchers say in the journal paper: “To a much greater extent England has set up programmes whose goal is to isolate individuals from the economic consequences of poor health in terms of their medical expenditure and especially earnings and wealth reduction.”

Democrats?

-from King of Zembla




Here are is the WHO`s rankings of the world`s healthcare systems (top 50 only):
Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
.
.
.
112 India
.
.
.
122 Pakistan

Re: # 57

i argued this with a black law student friend of mine who hailed from philadelphia.
he was adamant that he shouldn`t pay higher taxes so just so that poorer people could all
get free healthcare...and the guy was a fundamentalist christian too!

bulleya,

yes canada is a great country but i haven`t been there. still it is also a socialist democracy in tne same way as the EU is. maybe slightly more towards capitalism (like GB perhaps?) i don`t know. do u guys also get social security?

canada is one country i`ve thought of moving to--even though as a professional with a biomedical eng. background i could make much more in the USA but it is the purely capitalist
ideas of the US which put me off.


also, everyone loves canadians since they don`t `ungal` every other nation in the world.
the other countries i would consider would be france or the scandinavian ones. but then again, i already live in the best country in the world so maybe i`ll just stay where i am!

;-)

Re: # 52

Sorry Ana, it was not my intention to make it a race issue at all. I realise a LOT of US citizens are in that sad condition which you describe. I just used the black from Harlem as an example.
What percentage of Americans fall into this unfortunate category?

And this in by far the richest country in the world with a GDP of $10 trillion is what is so sad.

Re: # 50

The point you`re missing is: why should poorer people have to settle for Community Colleges or Texas State Unis? Why should they be prevented from entry to, say, Harvard, just because they`re from a low income family?

Here, even a milkman`s child can go to Oxford or Cambridge, if s/he is bright enough, and doesn`t have to worry about whether s/he can afford the fees. It used to be 100% free plus living costs. Now the system is the govt will pay for you but you have to pay the cost back in installments after you graduate. THAT my friend is difference. As the French say, `Vive la difference!` in this case!

My father used to work in a factory but I was able to go to UCL and Imperial College and then do a doctorate solely on state funding -- of course i had to be bright enough to get in but that was all. My cousin went to Cambridge and her father was a pensioner! She didn`t pay a penny! (Nor did I).

.......i am currently doing a contract with a european company, so i am getting quite a bit of an introduction to europe........i spend quite a bit of time in luxembourg and the surrounding areas now........

having seen usa, canada, south asia, a bit of middle east and now some europe, i would have to say the canadian system is the best.........canada is somewhere in between usa and europe in domestic policies........not quite as capitalist as usa, but not quite as socialist as europe.........

.......my personal income tax in canada is higher than in us states, though lower than in europe.......it is close to what i would be paying in california, though a bit higher...........yet my small business tax is lower than what i would pay in usa.........in return for my slightly higher than california personal tax (about 3-4% higher), i get free health care..........i can walk into any hospital and get in line for heart surgery, even if i am unemployed........thorugh loans, i get practically free university education, across the board.........the harvard of canada down to the state univ. all charge the same........and i can get a student loan at almost 0% interest for my education........i get access to a pension plan and employment insurance, which (not 100% sure) is extremely well-funded, unlike the us social security system........i can get access to govt. housing which is not in ghettos, but is interleaved into the best neighborhoods of canada........i currently live in the sixth most expensive housing district in canada.......yet, right next to me on one side are the most expensive condos in th city and on the other side is govt. housing apartments.........

........not bad for 3-4% higher taxes........the only exception is that i pay 15% tax on all purchases (except food), while in most us states i would pay around 7-8%..........

...........at a business level, i can hire and fire at will, much like usa...........quite different from europe, where companies cannot fire people and thus become beholden to inefficiency.........i have access to vc money and bank loans, like usa (though at a smaller level)........the biggest advantage is that if i get huge, i don`t have to spend all my money on my employees` health insurance.............unlike us companies like gm, ford etc........health insurance makes each gm car far more expensive if it is made in usa than in canada..........this maybe why ontario now makes more cars than michigan.........

.......most of all, canada has had a surplus for a while, and will continue to have one, more than likely........its currency has gone from 62 cents to a us dollar to around 90 cents to a us dollar in five years.........and it is going thru an oil boom in alberta, making that region the most prosperous area in north america...........not to mention the lumber and mineral and fresh water reserves that canada has, which will last generations...........

.........interestingly, canada spends less % of its wealth on defence than the usa and all european countries (accept luxembourg)........it spends hugely on health care........the minister for health position is the most important post, much like the secretary of defense in the usa...........

............toronto is the most multicultural city in north america........moreso than new york.......52% of torontonians are immigrants.......in about 15 years, according to my calculations, 1 out of every 8 individuals in greater toronto area will be south asian........punjabi/urdu/hindi is the second highest spoken language in my city, after english.........canada is adding 1% of its population through immigration, every year........and toronto area is adding 2% annually.........

.......yet the toronto area is the safest large big city in north america.......my wife can walk around by herself at night in toronto, without fear.......while in silicon valley, much of downtown san francisco and san jose was too dangerous to venture into........misssissauga, a toronto suburb is the hub of the pakistani community........it is one of the fastest grwoing and wealthiest cities in canada..........and is the safest city in north america.......interetingly, mississauga is where the sixteen alleged terrorists were caught.........yet that did not make a single dent into the community relations in the city........it has one paksitan mp, another that gets elected from a pakistani community and its runner up for mayor was a pakistani.......adjacent brampton has three mp positions - all three were sikhs in the last election.........one of whom wears a kirpan........every single political party of the four major ones is pro-immigration....

so, in my opinion, the canadian model is something that should be considered, by others.........

Re: # 55
vrv
i wonder whose avatar you are, either you can`t do simple arithmatic or david cameron can`t. indians are atleast 2% of UK population.

Re: # 54

zeemax,

you are right when you say, ``Indians can take insults and carry on, but not Paks`` ......... that`s why i have always maintained that a paki is simply an indian with a bad attitude

Re: # 53

aslam mian,

........... i agree with you that it is shameful that the us, the richest country in the world, does not have a universal healthcae system that covers everyone ......... i know a number of honest hardworking people who work 60-80 hours a week but still cannot afford health insurance for their families ............ actually welfare mommas who spends the morning at the nail salon and the afternoon at the welfare office gets better health care than someone who is self-employed and makes fifty thousand a year and therefore does not qualify for medicaid ........ it is a crying shame !

Re: # 55

........ in Stata format.....

i.e a Statistical Software

i/o ......in State format....

Bongy,

I need to quote what David Cameroon, the Tory leader said abt Indians recently.

`Indians are 1% of the UK population but 0.025% of the prison population` (sic).

Though he didnt say anything abt our bros of Pak origin.

In my Uni I had access to the British official statistics. The earning rate among Indians is the highest in Asian section (i.e Indian Subcontinent, though they are below white British as an average). Since the data contain sevral 000 entries and in State format I cant produce them here).

#32 by hamidm2

A late thought.

Paks are just not willing to be insulted ... wherever they are. That`s it. Therefore the veil row and whatever in-your-face belligerence they show anywhere. Indians can take insults and carry on, but not Paks.

Just a late thought.

i can understand US not having a decent dole system, i suppose is to encourage work ethic etc. but for the life of me i can`t understand why they don`t have a comprehensive health system, after all no one chooses to become ill, it really seems immoral to me with it being the richest country in the world.

Naqshbandi,

Just so you know, it isn`t only a ``poor black guy from harlem`` who can`t get a heart bypass as his insurance doesn`t cover it. A lot of other people, including myself wouldn`t have access to some hospitals or clinics without insurance. If you aren`t in a job where you have decent benefits, or in a situation where you can`t afford to pay for extended health insurance because you live below the poverty level and don`t have $400 plus a month to pay for Blue Cross insurance then there is a problem. And this doesn`t just affect blacks, it affects a good many of us regardless of color.

So yeah, our system does have a lot of problems, but it`s dangerous to make it solely a race issue. A good many of us are struggling here.