Wahabism in Centers of Learning

SR#176:

``So basically we are in total agreement. Why then did you prompt me write an explaination? I thought you were advocating the homeopathic approach. ``Fight like with like...`` Criminal atrocity with yet more criminal atrocity on an industrial scale``

I do not know why you got that impression. I was simply asking you a question what to do in a situation where ``criminals`` (and examples I gave were of my communities in Canada and India although I could also have given the example of Mafia in certain ethnic communities) have wide support and cause widespread fear in the community. [Remember, I am someone who has stoutly and consistently opposed Bush` daisy-cutters in both Afghanistan and Iraq, which I believe to be counterproductive]. Franky, I do not know the answer and thought that you might have some; so far your answers haven`t satisfied me either.

But I do believe that brutal approach is sometimes necesssary, though it does not have to be on industrial scale, as you put it. Let me give you an example from my own community again, this time Punjabis. When the British administrators came to Punjab, they noticed that many fathers were killing their female babies at birth and the practice enjoyed widespread sympathy among the populace. They caught a few fathers killing their daughters and hung them from the village tree, which put a quick stop to the practice.

nasah#174:

Kaise hain, bhaijaan? I am the same as always; behas-mbahas mein shakhsiyat ke kabhi kuchh pehloo nazar aate hain, kabhi kuchh aur!

So now, supposing I wish to dominate the world, how are you people going to win over my heart and mind?

DM, head of the senior Taliban, did you figure that out? :)

#173 by dost-mittar

[My agenda, to the extent that I have an agenda, is that the embedded intolerance of religions, and not just of Islam, must be confronted and openly discussed and debated in discussion forums...]


Ah yes. An open debate. A very enlightened position.

By the way, what is your position on both Islamic men and women asking their non-Muslim partners to convert?

#175 by nasah

[Yes I would say that they belong to the same realm of mythology as yours.... ]

So would you say that ALL of the Koran is Mythology, and not the word of Al-lah?

[....now talking about the Hindu tolerance -- the Indian Muslims are as tolerant as YOU are -- ]

That is your OPINION. You avoided answering my question (accidentally?). So I`ll repeat it for you here:

I`d like to do an opinion poll someday amongst the neighbourly Muslims of Varanasi - what their opinion is about the right of other religions to build temples, synagogues, churches etc. in Mecca and Medina - smack next to their mosques etc.

What do you think their reaction would be?

And what`s YOUR opinion on this?



[but if you don`t like the Muslims you are always welcome to move to the Hindu Kingdom of Nepal.....:)]

The Hindu Kingdom of Nepal - just like the Islamic state of Pakiland? Eh?

But here`s what spoils your 50-50 argument:

Pakistan was created as an Islamic state by the majority will of the Muslims (disregarding the minorities` will).

Nepal WAS a Hindu state as long as the kings ruled, and the public had no say. The moment the Hindu majority public got their say, they OVERWHELMINGLY optede for a secular state.

See the difference?


Your turn.

Re: # 173 D-M {``...No, I do not advocate the wholesale punishment even if it worked ... brutal punishments do not have to be administered ... My agenda,... is that the embedded intolerance of religions, and not just of Islam, must be confronted and openly discussed and debated in discussion forums...``}

So basically we are in total agreement. Why then did you prompt me write an explaination? I thought you were advocating the homeopathic approach. ``Fight like with like...`` Criminal atrocity with yet more criminal atrocity on an industrial scale. That seems to be a popular viewpoint around here. God help us all, if the neo-cons of this forum (or the kutter religionists for that matter) ever come into any real power.

...SR

``Hanuman`s antics belong to Hindu MYTHOLOGY. Would you say that the aerial acrobatics of the Gibreel dude and other assorted winged creatures as mentioned in the koran actually belong in the realm of mythology....``(Krishna abcd)

Yes I would say that they belong to the same realm of mythology as yours....

....now talking about the Hindu tolerance -- the Indian Muslims are as tolerant as YOU are -- but if you don`t like the Muslims you are always welcome to move to the Hindu Kingdom of Nepal.....:)

``This is why I always welcome the so-called fundamentalists and clear-cut rejectionits over the liberals...``(dost-mitter)

meray bhai dost-mitter ji -- tu yeh baat hai -- no wonder I don`t get to hear from you as oftern as I used to -- you are too busy with the fundamentalists and the rejectionists.......:)

SR#167:

Please do not confuse thinking people with GW Bush. He is another one of those who is probably acting on what he perceives to be in his embedded belief system and is causing a whole lot of havoc in the world.

No, I do not advocate the wholesale punishment even if it worked and, as you most probably know, the system devised by the British for the Frontier agency and used by their Pakistani successors was indeed a system of collective punishment for any criminal belonging to a clan. And brutal punishments do not have to be administered on a large scale, how many people do you see in Saudi Arabis with amputated hands?

My agenda, to the extent that I have an agenda, is that the embedded intolerance of religions, and not just of Islam, must be confronted and openly discussed and debated in discussion forums, though not from bully pulpits as that would lead to bloodshed. This is why I always welcome the so-called fundamentalists and clear-cut rejectionits over the liberals; they are both clear in their statements and willing to defend their respective stands, and I am here thinking only of discussion foraas. The liberals however, seem to take the approach that we can challenge the interpretations but not the foundations of those interpretation. They are unwilling to apply the same test of rationality/sanity that they use in everyday life in every sphere. Thus we are unwilling to take anyone seriously when he talks about the sighting of Elvis Priesley (or even Subhash Bose in India!) but insist that those who talk of the Immaculate Conception of Jesus Christ or half of the American Christians who believe that Jesus will return to earth in their lifetime should not be in the same category as those believers in the Elvis sighting.

Echoboom#168:
No, I do not mind being called a talib; in fact I do consider myself a true talib on chowk.:)

#171 by nasah

[my dear lad Krishna -- ``the winged creature mentioned in the Koran`` -- used the SAME LOCOMOTION -- that the Monkey God Hanuman used -- to carry the mountain from the Himalayas to Sri Lanka for Sita]


nasah my boy,

Hanuman`s antics belong to Hindu MYTHOLOGY. Would you say that the aerial acrobatics of the Gibreel dude and other assorted winged creatures as mentioned in the koran actually belong in the realm of mythology, and not the sacrosanct word of your Al-lah?

Your turn.

[-- now don`t tell me that I have no right to talk about ur monkey God Hanuman -- as long as there is one Hindu in India -- that`s my concern also......:) ]

We hindus are a tolerant lot - way too tolerant. Nobody`s going to chop off your head for saying this or that, unlike in your glorious religion where your man mo did just that to MANY individuals for saying things he did not like.

In fact, I`d like to do an opinion poll someday amongst the neighbourly Muslims of Varanasi - what their opinion is about the right of other religions to build temples, synagogues, churches etc. in Mecca and Medina - smack next to their mosques etc.

Want to guess what their reaction would be?

``Could you provide some info on the winged creatures mentioned in the Koran? What specifically is their means of locomotion? Do they actually have to flap their wings, or do they kind of swoosh around like jets, only with divine propulsion?`` (KRishna _abcd)

my dear lad Krishna -- ``the winged creature mentioned in the Koran`` -- used the SAME LOCOMOTION -- that the Monkey God Hanuman used -- to carry the mountain from the Himalayas to Sri Lanka for Sita -- now don`t tell me that I have no right to talk about ur monkey God Hanuman -- as long as there is one Hindu in India -- that`s my concern also......:)

Re: # 167

SR,

In the short term use vigorous law enforcement (staying within the norms of constitutional law) to intercept, apprehend, contain, curtail and minimize the fall out from the criminal activity of the extremists, while launching a long terms campaign to win the hearts and minds of their sympathetic population.

......... you ae a hopeless optimist and we love you for it !............ but think about what people like echoboom and urstruly will do to apostates like you and me if and when they come to power - i doubt you will be launching any campaign to win their hearts and minds when you are swinging from a tree ! ........ remember warsaw and khandaq

Maulana Dr. Kalbe Sadiq is one of the most respected and learned muslims of India.

Incidentally, he was also the persons whose visa to US was revoked this year..just as Yusuf Islam was ``deported`` in mid-air.

Now if one is fair-minded and a seeker & prursuer of Justice in the world [and begs everyone to be considered a ``parRhaa likhha despite the fact he can only read/write Blacksheep Urdu & speak/write only toataa-mainaa english] would that person STILL not condemn the Bhang-ifarangi aka as United Satans?

The fact is the United-Satan is hand in glove with all the un-Islamic ``muslims`` like the Shah of Iran, Saddaam, naa-Musharraf, naa-Mubarak Saudis, Morroccan King & now the Libyan dictator.

It is NOT in ther interest of the United Satans to be friendly with those who dislike KANJarR-pan and ``progress-thru-gainfully-utilising-one`s-orifices``. United Satan is alwyas looking for jobbers, workers & followers of ORDERS...like what John Le Carre wrote about the order-taker nature of certain Panjabis & their surrender of everything for ``the-hand-that-feeds-him``..the canine genes that he has in him.

No wonder Q2 and Q32 always seem to drooling , and slurping & burping from every entry & exit point of their bodies.

---

HindustanTimes.com
‘Mullahs’ destroying Islam: Kalbe Sadiq
HT Correspondent
Lucknow, November 5



SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) MAULANA Dr Kalbe Sadiq today blasted the ‘Mullahs’ for destroying Islam. He said their ill-conceived fatwas (edict) had not only painted Islam in black hues but had also stopped its progress. MAULANA Dr Sadiq assailed both Shia and Sunni ulema (clerics) for straying away from Quranic path.

Dr Sadiq said Islam laid stress on ‘pen culture’ but Muslims had resorted to ‘gun culture’. Delivering lecture on ‘Islam versus Muslims’ on Sunday, MAULANA Dr Sadiq said these Mullahs had tarnished the image of Islam in the past and the process was still continuing. He said they had issued ridiculous fatwas, which hampered the progress of the religion.

He said both Sunni and Shia clerics were responsible for present deplorable situation of Muslims. He squarely blamed the ulema for lack of unity in Muslims. Dr Sadiq said these clerics had been fighting among themselves but asking the community to unite. “It is absurd situation”, he said.

Pointing out that Islam was not responsible for the conduct of Muslims, Dr Sadiq said the community had strayed away from intellectual approach and justice. He said Islam did not allow unjust approach against any community.

Dr Sadiq reiterated that birth control was not anti-Islamic, as the religion had laid stress producing good generation and not on degeneration. Dr Sadiq said even though Islam did not permit abortion, it however had not asked the believers to produce child without having resources for his upkeep.

He also attacked Saudi Arabia King Abdullah for his corrupt way of life. He charged chief Mufti of mosque in Medina for resorting to all anti-Islamic activities. Dr Sadiq said history had enough examples that both Shia and Sunni monarch led anti-Islamic life.

He said there had been ulema who even issued fatwas against use of rifles in army or construction of steamship in Turkey. He said Shia ulema had been living lavish life, which was against the tenets of Islam.

Referring to Shia clerics of Lucknow, Dr Sadiq said their participation in luxurious marriages was against Islam. “It is religious crime on their part”, he pontificated and invited the ulema community to debate with him on issues raised by him

SR:
May I register my admiration for some the very sensible posts by you?....As you might have guessed by now most of the stuff written here are ``feelings`` and not necessarily ``thoughts``.

We can never divest feelings from thoughts & the heart always has its reasons & will always conquer the mind . The brain deceives , the heart never abandons.

We all know how beautifully different we are than how we package and present ourselves for whatever reason. An ``objection`` here is not necessarily a ``disagreement``

Like Dost-Mittar, there are many true Talibaans here. Don`y panic Dost, this is a good word.
Talibaan: Seeker-of Talibaan-i-Ilm : Seekers of Knowledge Talibaan-i-Gyaan, Dhiyyaan (Zen) mukti, or whatever.

Seeker, Seek--is SIKH the one who is a disciple ..original root from Sanskrit Sikhsatya...Seeking Truth

So the Sikhs were the very first Talibaans & this word was , in my opinon, used for the very first time as a movement.

Re: # 161 D-M {``... how should a tolerant society deal with those intolerants whose ``intolerance`` is perceived to be embedded in their belief system? ...``}

The superficial and pedstrian ``common-sense`` answer is the one many here seem to be arguing for as is George W. But again, a society cannot afford to react to historical situations in a knee-jerk fashion. As individuals we DO act on our whim. Most of us do. If someone in Anarkali bazaar tries to grab my wife`s purse and run, I`ll instictivly strike at him with full force. But examples from the everyday lives of people that quote such individaul cases are a poor stand-in for conflict at a macro-level.

Suppose that a significant minority (for even a majority, for that matter) of a population group is sympathetic towards those of its errent sons who have committed atrocity and victimized the innocent elsewhere, that does not justify mass punishment of a population. I am not just talking in terms of ``moral high ground`` ... forget the morality for a moment. Let`s look at it in terms of ``enlightened self-interest`` and keep an eye on the historical practicality... What will be the longer-terms ``NET GAIN`` or ``LOSS`` to society as a whole.

In the Roman times this dilemma did not exist. Today it does. The Romans could go into Carthage, kill every fighting-age man, sell all women and children into slavery, burn all the crops, dump tons of salt in water wells and destroy every standing structure. Humane it might not have been, but it was effective. But times change. Today, America could not, or would not, do the same to that extent. Surely, this is progress... no one denies it. But it`s a matter of degree only. Not of fundamental principles in approach.

If America had killed 27 million Vietnamese instead of just 2.7 million, the war would have ended very differently. America would have been the undisputed winner and a most feared one. But that would have also made life of an ordinary citizen in America radically different. America would have turned into a country that Ashcroft, Cheney, and Rumsfeld can only imagine in their wildest wet-dreams.

The alternative is to take a longer terms view and take a two pronged approach. In the short term use vigorous law enforcement (staying within the norms of constitutional law) to intercept, apprehend, contain, curtail and minimize the fall out from the criminal activity of the extremists, while launching a long terms campaign to win the hearts and minds of their sympathetic population. Education, economic opportunity, general uplifting of standards. It`s a ``suck-o-de-ditch`` (to quote my three year old). Takes too long, costs too much, doesn`t show results quckly, etc, etc. But think of the alternative. That works even less.

You have to deal with that population for the long term, after all. True, you wish you could have exterminated that population (wish you were in Roman times) and the solution would have been long since achieved. But that is not on the table. So what`s the next best thing? These people seem to be saying, kill them as much as is allowable... no, No, NO... that won`t work. But that is what`s being done. No wonder its all getting worse.

Time to try something that makes more sense.

...SR

#164 by nasah

[Qoran doesn`t need to be re written, reinterpreted, or reinvented -- Qoran is a book for the spiritual solace of the believers -- not for political warfare -- it is futile to search for material meaning in Qoran -- as a Book of God, it is above `meaning` -- because God is above `meaning`. ]

nasah,

This is 100% correct.

It IS futile to look for ``inner meaning`` in statements such as ``Kill kaffirs wherever you find them`` and ``Do not make friends with Kaffirs even if they are your own parents`` and ``The mountains are there to hold the earth down, and prevent earthquakes, and to prop the sky up, so it doesn`t fall on our heads``.

Such deep insights are not to be toyed with or ``interpreted``, but memorized, if one wants to avail themselves of 72 Houris and ``untouched as pearls`` Ghilmans, and other such fun stuff.

Faith is the key.

Could you provide some info on the winged creatures mentioned in the Koran? What specifically is their means of locomotion? Do they actually have to flap their wings, or do they kind of swoosh around like jets, only with divine propulsion?

Thanks..

#153 by discoverer

[haha.... well this is what DISCUSSION means. Beside this article is for Muslims only especially Paki muslims, when will you cow-piss drinkin indian mind your business. ]

As long as there is even ONE Muslim in India, it IS our business. As long as pedophile-following terrorists kill innocent Hindus in India, it IS our business.

If you want us to stop talking about Muslims, take ALL your brethren out of India to your Pakiland, and implement the TNT theory properly.


[I mean why don`t you indians start your own article about ACHOOT, RELIGIOUS RIOT or BRAHMIN and talk about there terrorist involvement. India is a big country you know, every minute someone in india is getting rape or being sacrifice for KALI. ]

Yes, but it is WITHIN us Hindus. We are not going to Pakistan to rape.

You should stick to reading the manual that the pedophile has written for you 5 times a day and not get involved in these discussions.

Cheers.