Wahabism in Centers of Learning

Sattar

There are two sources of Islamic Law - Qura`n and Hadith. According to a verse in Chepter 2 of Qura`n the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had the authority to validate the laws of Moses that he deemed fit for Muslims. Hence the punishment for adultry was partly replaced by Li`an and partly the punishment with stoning was revalidated with a strict requirement of witnesses to prove the case.

So it is always Qura`n & its explanation i.e. Hadith that go together.

Apart from laws, look at it this way. There is one function in Islam that is done five times a day by all Muslims around the globe i.e. Azan which is call for prayers. Muslims, no where in world even stand up for prayers unless Azan is called first. But it is an undeniable fact that neither Qura`n nor a Hadith tells us about the way the Azan must be said or even a requirement for it. Islamic history tells us that the words of Azan were dreamt by two companions of Prophet (pbuh) simulateously. They told Holy prophet (pbuh) about their dream. Holy Prophet liked what was proposed and it became a binding law for Muslims until the Day of Final Judgement. Since Qura`n has not objected to Prophet`s Ijtehad hence it becomes valid.

The point that I`m trying to make here is that a Prophet of God (pbuh) is allowed and sanctioned to do his Ijtehad to address a particular situation. If Allah deems it fit then either He approves it explicitly through revelation or rejects it outright. I quote two examples here to support my point:

- in one example Holy Prophet (pbuh) probably in his third war with Meccans imposed ransom for the release of enemy POWs, a practice that he had already done twice in first two wars, but in third war Allah prohibited the practice through a revelation. Second example, is that Holy Prophet (pbuh) imposed the Mosaic punishment of an eye for an eye upon some Jewish thugs who stole camels from a Muslim collective farm and gouged the eyes of the attendents there. Allah disliked his ijtehad and Mosaic law of an eye for an eye was cancelled then forever and it was replaced with Muslim law of Diyyat, which imposes financial compensation for a bodily harm caused by a malicious intent or by an accident.

It is an undeniable fact that Holy Prophet (pbuh) imposed the punishment of stonning to death upon several Jewish as well as Muslim adulterers and 100 lashes for fornicators. The Quranic silence upon such a harsh punishment as that of stonning attests to the fact that Qura`n has sanctioned the Ijtehad of Prophet (pbuh) in this regard.

PM:247

McCarthyism never ever goes away...and it exists in all societies and always lurks beneath the thin veneer of ``civilisations``. This is also called Statan`s whisperings into the human ear.

During osme of the so called ``glorious `` khilafats a lot of heads rolled, almost ALL imams have paid the ultimate price for their ``apostasies according to King Henry or Khalifa Haroun``.

Imam Becket was one of them as well.

A relentless reminder to humans about not hearkening to Satan`s whisperings , and falling prey to temptations is , in a nutshell, the whole cux of religions.

Fo humans, contrary to the self-congratulatory delusions they have about their rationalisations and justifications are much more fickle and feeble than the ``animals``.

Laughting (happiness on tap), Crying (misery manufactured) and killing of fellow beings is the exclusive domain of humans...and so is religion , which is nothing but the ``Call of The Wild`` for the human-animal. ( note capitals..blasphemy unintentional!)

In other words, note what YOU wrote (#255) ...

`... Qura`n is ``The Criterion`` to judge as to what is valid in Bible and what is not ...`

Now apply this to apostasy, blasphemy, and adultery.
It really is that simple if you can think properly …

Urstruly (#255)

… good! Now apply same reasoning to adultery and apostasy as well!

Quran rules out death as punishment for apostasy or adultery. What you read in Bible could very well have been added later. So why bother quoting Bible at all?

You agree that stuff got added to Bible. But when Bible serves your agenda, you embrace it and abandon Quran altogether.

Why this hypocrisy? Why ignore Quran when it no longer serves your agenda?

Urstruly, this is somewhat of a tangential issue … but worth pointing out …

”When Jesus Christ (pbuh) was sent upon Isrealites, the Isrealites due to their subjugation for centuries and because of inevitable corruption had turned the Law of Moses into nothing but legalized brutality. The meek in the society were punished with the stricktest of the laws> …”

This also aptly describes current condition of Muslim ullema of this day and age! They too have abused Islam and turned it into a brutal system of authority.

Now think about ahadith regarding return of ``Jesus Christ``. Do you see the parallel???

+++++++++

BTW, what about #252 and 253? No answer?

Sattar,

Up until the Shariah (law) of Moses (pbuh), siblings were allowed to marry each other. The law of Moses prohibited that practice. In other words what we consider illegal today was legal once. The final version of legal etiquettes was brought by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), which will remain so till the end of times. So, I do not see the incest of Lot as an earth shettering incident until I verify it through my code of values i.e. Qura`n.

As far as the alleged incest of Lot (pbuh) with his daughters is concerned Qura`n in no uncertain terms has repudiate that slander and it absolves Lot of this sin. And as Qura`n is ``The Criterion`` to judge as to what is valid in Bible and what is not, we can safely say that the verses in Deutronomy regarding Lot and his daughter were an addition.

PM # 243

``So you see, my dear Urstruly, its all about the spirit... the spirit of Islam is chiefly legalistic, though there is also definite appeal to love and compassion. In Christianity, it`s really the other way around, though they probably both striive for the same type of society. ``

This statement is an absolutely correct assessment. It is true that Jesus Christ (pbuh) did not bring any new law to replace the law of Moses but he (Jesus) only validated what was already there as many of the Gospel attest to this fact.

In Islamic jurisprudence and legalese, the term Justice is always accompanied by the term ``Compassion`` i.e Adl-o-Ihsan. Which means that ustice without compassion is nothing but legalized brutality. This is the cornerstone of Islamic justice system. Hence Islamic law stresses equally on forgiveness even for as grave crimes as murder through a system called Qisas. Similarly for other crimes some sort of compassion in terms of pardon and forgiveness also exists.

When Jesus Christ (pbuh) was sent upon Isrealites, the Isrealites due to their subjugation for centuries and because of inevitable corruption had turned the Law of Moses into nothing but legalized brutality. The meek in the society were punished with the stricktest of the laws while strong only got slap on the wrist for the same crime. In those cruel times a man stood up for the meek and oppressed against Mujtahideen (jurists) of Israel and boldly proclaimed that ``the first stone must be cast by that who has never sinned``. This was the message of Ihsan or Compassion that a compassionate Prophet of God had brought for the oppressed people who themselves had trapped themselves into a vicious cycle of heartless law. That is the reason, Jesus (pbuh) had to face the persecution of those Ulema or Jurists who had forgotten the message of love that God had delivered through Moses (pbuh) earlier.

According to the prediction or Prophecy in Old Testament the Prophet who proceeded Jesus (pbuh) was to bring a renewed law ``just like Moses`` and ``compassion`` with it. That Prophet was Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) who revitalized the Law of Moses and Love of Jesus and combined them into one - Adl-o-Ihsaan.....Adl-o-Ihsaan......Justice with Compassion.

... and if getting drunk and naked is good enough for Prophet Noah, it`s gotta be good enough for common believer. So why shun alcohol and a little frolic in public? God forbid, do you reject alcohol based on what Quran says??

... Urstruly, you forgot to mention incest between Prophet Lot and his daughters ...

Let`s see how much faith you have in bible now ...

In my last post I mentioned that the subject of adultery and fornication has been addressed 347+ times, which is a typo. It should be read as 247+ times.

PM

This is regarding your contention about number of times the subject of fornication and adultery is addressed in Old & New Testament and Psalms. As you can see it very well exceeds the number of times you had expected it. As you can see through the text below the matter is discussed with all possible scenarios of illicit sex i.e. fornication, adultery, incest, rape, prostitution, perversion, and as a lascivious addiction.

1. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 No explanation required

``Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body;
but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you...?
therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God`s.``

2. Genesis 20:9 What Abimelech the King of Grar is referring here as great sin is the incestuous relationship he pondered to have with his sister but didn`t.


``Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. ``


3. Genesis 34:7 In this verse ``the thing ought not to be done refers to the rape of Dinah the daughter of Leah.


``And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob`s daughter: which thing ought not to be done.``



4. 2 Samuel 13;12 This refers to a potential incest between the offspring of Jacob (pbuh)


``And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.``


5. 2 Corinthians 12:21 This is Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) where he prophesizes his second coming and impending condemnation of fornicators, when he comes.


``And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.``


6. Deuteronomy 23: 17-18

``There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

This verse explicitly forbids prostitution, both male and female.

7. Genesis 38:24 The prescribed punishment for prostitution and adultery


``And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. ``


8. Leviticus 21:9 Prescribed Punishment

``And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. ``

9. Romans 2:22 In new testament adultery is being compared with such grave sins as robbery, polytheism, and theft.

``Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?``

10. Malachi 3: 5 Severe judgment promised for adulterers in New Testament

``And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.``

In addition there are tens of other verses in both testaments that address the issue of fornication and there implication on human and social life e.g

2 Samuel 13:12
Romans 2:21-22
1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 9-13
Ephesians 4:17-20
Hebrews 12:16
Ephesians 2:2-3
Colossians 3:7, 5-6
Titus 3:3-5
Acts 15:20, 29
1 Corinthians 6:18
1 Thessalonians 4:3
2 Timothy 2:22


………..and many many more.

OK, I can’t comment on number of times fornication, rape are discussed in the Bible … but I’ll say this much … Urstruly seems to have trouble counting.

For example, he also claims 450+ ahadith on “end of prophethood”, but is able to cite no more than 2-3 of them (how he interprets these 2-3 hadith is another story altogether …).

I asked him about this method of counting, but got no answer.

I then asked … if a hadith has a chain of 13 narrators, and is listed in books compiled by 5 different authors, does that make it 1 hadith, or 13 ahadith, or 13x5=65 ahadith? Still I did not get an answer …

I can only imagine how he counts …

tesah: Thank you.

I`m afraid I have almost no knowledge of the Gita, though have heard good things about it from reliable sources.

re. echooboom #245:

``Where do you deport a born citizen?``

The issue isn`t really one of how to deal with criminals, but of what constitutes criminality. Born citizens may hold any set of beliefs they desire and even preach the same -- that does not violate the social contract. Violations occur when one`s actions impinge on the rights of others to live their lives in peace and with liberty.

In any case, taking even the most extreme case imaginable (say, another John Walker Lindh who didn`t actually join the Taliban to fight the US) , giving the dissenting born-citizen the choice to leave the country or face imprisonment isn`t exactly in the same order of magnanimity as depriving him of his head, now is it?

The nearest thing you have had in the West to persecution of those holding a political/ideological view is the Macarthy trials. And even Macarthy had to show that the alleged communists were plotting against the state, in however a convoluted way he did so.

And, just so we don`t forget, Macarthyism isn`t exactly seen as Ameica`s brightest hour by its citizens.

Re: # 243

PM

Wonderful dear PM; your write-up on religion is masterly.

You say Islam is based on fath, Christinity on love, what about Gita? Is it not based on reason (Qaaimul-aql) wihout any supernatural intervention?

PM:236

As I stated earlier that theRetribution or Punishment part is wholly traditional..perhaps some in their zeal for ulterior motives or perhaps ( to give benefit of the doubt, now in hindsight) a very sincere, no matter how ``misguided``, desire to follow the ``sunnat`` to the letter rather than to the spirit.

Having gotten that out of my way, now let me put my own brain to work ( the most mischievious , devious , and least to be trusted of my being ... Now that is my lifetime experience. Most of what others & I attribute to ``successes`` in my life have been accidental...
...the least planned ones , the least expected ones. Such has been the case with everyone I happen to know.

It has been said that the most crucial & important events & the decision about ones-self are taken in his absence).

Now what would the US ( just for example) would do to its born-citizens..who just goes beyond mummbling , muttering , and badmouthing the US where it touches its CORE belief system ( right to happiness, democracy, all men are created, God etc etc) and its not just the Hanoi Janes I` talking about..it is about the Rosenberg types.

Where do you deport a born citizen?

But then there is a naturalised citizen. Im more likelihood he might return to the the fold ( previous country or religion) or if he has a great desire to stay & remain within the belief system ( bill of rights or constituion) he might as well repent, seek forgiveness, and continue to retain , willy nilly, his citizenship.

If you recollect, that until & unless the ``modern`` & self-appointed ``civilised`` world continues to hold its populace in prisons/zoos our discussion is quite fruitless and as enlightening as a game of chess.

But I still like to spar with you once in a while...just to stay fit in my belief. :)